Topic: Sportsmanship  (Read 8709 times)

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Offline Mutilator

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Sportsmanship
« on: April 28, 2005, 08:21:04 pm »
With the latest barrage of crap flying in the PBR forums is there any wonder why many have pulled the plug and are moving on to other things. While I will not weigh in on either side of these endless debates to see who has the biggest drone in their pants or tutu as the case maybe. I will say I find both side equally guilty of bad manners and poor sportsmanship as far as their posts are concerned and I can only wonder how much longer people are going to want to be associated with such a low standard of ethics, respect and spirit of the game.

For members of this community that come here to schedule matches or read anything of importance (like that ever happens here anymore) take into account the number of people that have already given up on this game. A few more people leave and all the haters that refuse to get along or keep spewing sewer fill posts will end up in a league of their own.

While it maybe desired to get rid of people or fleets that do not meet these low standards that we all continue to set I do not see how this continued practiced will produce anything but an empty league. 

I have played against most if not all the players involved in this league and I believe you all to be honourable or at least were at one time. As far as Butcher is concerned he is a skilled pilot that I believe lets his emotions get the better of him and at times he posts in haste like many do. I try and keep this in mind when reading Butchers posts is the fact that he is writing in a second or third language and he maybe coming across harsher or be misinterpreted more then he may wish. Currently with the endless raking over the coals he is getting (perhaps warranted) I can understand why.

The ISC fleet may come across as caustics and arrogant but perhaps until someone can dethrone them as champions they have earned that right to be proud of their accomplishments. As many post "this only a game"; however, people place different values on it or on what goals they set for any given cycle 10 and 0 record was obviously important to ISC. Any matches FSD has played against ISC they have shown great skills and sportsmanship. While their posting on the forums is a little excessive at times I do not see things they have posted any less or more offensive than others. I am not defending what ISC or anyone posts; however I will defend their right to defend their honour and their “privilege” to post. I read one post where Butcher apologized for an infraction and was then told to STFU, again another great display of leadership and sportsmanship from our league.

Butcher and FSD have had issues in the past especially when KEG was under his command, we worked through many issues and have come to a mutual respect for what both sides felt was good for PBR. Now, with ISC and perhaps other fleets leaving any of us that see this as a good thing should take a look around and see what we have left. Any fleet leaving is one more step toward the end of this league for all of us fanatics.

My reason for this is that I have read enough of these posts over the last couple of days to now realize that we only have two places left to go: one is up where we try and work past the differences and pull together as a community or two we all go quietly into the night… 

For Butcher I will extend a hand in the spirit of sportsmanship and a position in FSD if and when you are looking for a new home once/if ISC pulls out for good. I will save you a seat at our table.

“Respect for ourselves guides our morals; respect for others guides our manners.”
Laurence Sterne

“If you have some respect for people as they are, you can be more effective in helping them to become better than they are.”
John W. Gardner
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline Dfly

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2005, 10:54:41 pm »
And I thought that seat was reserved for me :-[

Offline KBF-Butcher

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2005, 04:56:38 am »
And I thought that seat was reserved for me :-[

Take a look at your avatar and tell us if u think this relationship can have a future ;D

Offline Mutilator

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2005, 05:39:29 am »
And I thought that seat was reserved for me :-[

There has always been a seat for you Dfly. I am planning on sitting Butcher beside TT they can abuse each other while we enjoy the feast.

And I thought that seat was reserved for me :-[

Take a look at your avatar and tell us if u think this relationship can have a future ;D

Hmmm cats and dogs working together I am sure tolerance can work things out  ;)

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline Slider

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2005, 09:20:48 am »
Yuck, I hate to even consider what your hinting at.

TT is in SL...waiting on you im sure. Sign yourself up and add FSD as a team.

KHH and iCoP are going to fight for rungs 1 and 2 respectively..you guys can challenge or even fight for any of these positions if KHH cant make it.

Offline K9

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2005, 01:28:19 pm »
Woa! I must have misunderstood the topic. I came in here expecting to see a bunch of you sitting around a deer feeder in camo, drunk off your butts.


My bad

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2005, 04:25:19 pm »
Quote

. I am planning on sitting Butcher beside TT they can abuse each other while we enjoy the feast.

Quote

ummmm....... LESS THAN ENSIGN RANK  mutilator,report to captains quarters for proper indoctrination in Captians Privledges.Leave the ky jelly and your knot hole where they are  :whip:

Offline Slider

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2005, 04:27:19 pm »
If I see a FSD-Butcher im so going to hurl.

Offline Mutilator

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2005, 04:41:01 pm »
Quote

. I am planning on sitting Butcher beside TT they can abuse each other while we enjoy the feast.

Quote

ummmm....... LESS THAN ENSIGN RANK  mutilator,report to captains quarters for proper indoctrination in Captians Privledges.Leave the ky jelly and your knot hole where they are  :whip:

Right keep I keep forgetting I am no longer commanding FSD... standing by for slaps...go easy I am still so young  :flame:
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline Slider

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2005, 04:42:22 pm »
I feel a hairball coming up.

Offline KHH-MiniMe

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2005, 05:37:54 pm »
With the latest barrage of crap flying in the PBR forums is there any wonder why many have pulled the plug and are moving on to other things. While I will not weigh in on either side of these endless debates to see who has the biggest drone in their pants or tutu as the case maybe. I will say I find both side equally guilty of bad manners and poor sportsmanship as far as their posts are concerned and I can only wonder how much longer people are going to want to be associated with such a low standard of ethics, respect and spirit of the game.

For members of this community that come here to schedule matches or read anything of importance (like that ever happens here anymore) take into account the number of people that have already given up on this game. A few more people leave and all the haters that refuse to get along or keep spewing sewer fill posts will end up in a league of their own.

While it maybe desired to get rid of people or fleets that do not meet these low standards that we all continue to set I do not see how this continued practiced will produce anything but an empty league. 

I have played against most if not all the players involved in this league and I believe you all to be honourable or at least were at one time. As far as Butcher is concerned he is a skilled pilot that I believe lets his emotions get the better of him and at times he posts in haste like many do. I try and keep this in mind when reading Butchers posts is the fact that he is writing in a second or third language and he maybe coming across harsher or be misinterpreted more then he may wish. Currently with the endless raking over the coals he is getting (perhaps warranted) I can understand why.

  Since I have been doing most of the posting/setting up matches for KHH.....I'm not sure if the biggest drone in my pants thing was intended for me/KHH. Is anyone in KHH a "hater/not get alonger" that makes "sewer filled posts"?..... if so email me or post it here and we'll have a frank discussion. The tutu reference to Kroma/GDA was unforunate.....OK, I agree the whole pink tutu thing is a bit creepy but from what I know....Kroma is a pretty reasonable guy...as is the rest of GDA....never had a problem. Same for SoV....FPF...has FSD ever had a problem with KHH? I mean other than TT calling Jakle "Jerkle" in the forums(Is english TT's second language too?...he's pretty feisty forum wise). Do I have to go on here? Has anyone had a problem with KHH? Other than ISC of course...but isn't that the pattern? Are their fights between TSC and FPF? Or SoV and 9th? If so, I haven't noticed it in the forums....but ISC seems to have had a Howard Dean meltdown with SoV, the League...KHH to a degree..were there others during the cycle?
  Since you think Butcher has been "raked over the coals" you must think he's gotten the worst of it? I don't see how....being told to STFU? The "Reply to the Reply to" series of threads? I think humor was used to check Butcher's/ ISC's anger...humor can be an effective tool when dealing with certain personality types.

  So let me know if KHH has been involed in the "crap"...once again everyone(including admins) could point out instances, it would be most helpfull....we'll look at the entire set of circumstances involved and talk about things.
khh_MiniMe@hotmail.com
or post it here
 

Offline Mutilator

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2005, 08:33:51 pm »
Mini my post was not directed to anyone in particular and everyone at the same time. While I and FSD are not without sin and have dwelled in the lower levels of civility on other forums I find the general replies to Butcher and ISC a little excessive making fun of a guy that is writing in a second or third language is plain ignorant perhaps we should all post in our own language so we are not misunderstood because of a limited vocabulary I am sure if I started writing en Français only a handful of people would understand and I already hear enough of how much people like French Canadians. (And TT’s English is just fine until he gets into the rum  ;D)

 ISC are caustic and I think that is well known by all who have been playing with them over the last few years does it make it right what they do? Absolutely not, nor do I support how they post; however, I came to the same conclusion Kraven recently posted about. Just before coming over to Dyna forums I figured a new start for all and ignore those that try to incite debate towards flaming wars. This has served FSD well and has kept our sanity. Our biggest complaint is the inability to play a game a week and have the cycle drag on endlessly like this current cycle. 

My general concern is for the state of the league if we continue to drive out the people that play the game we will not have anyone left to fly against I am fairly certain that day is coming soon anyway. I am of the mind that people will return kindness with kindness, it is a learnt thing and it does not develop over night perhaps I am a little naïve in that thinking however it has served me well. I have dealt with Butcher for a long time and like most felt at one time he should have been bounced long ago, I am sure people have tough the same about many others over the years. During the summer cycle that went to hell I kept thinking perhaps it was time to move on like the hundreds before me, however, I kept coming to the same conclusion I like the game and I like the personalities we have in our community. I also thought if people could just clean up some of their posts and keep it about the game we could attract more players (unrealistic I think that tree is barren) The SFC2 net has a flame thread over there for people that enjoy flame wars.

I took the time to talk to Butcher and Phaser outside of the game on voice comms and text messaging I was surprised to find that they are pretty decent people if you give them a chance. I know not all people can change nor should they but I know if they are not given an honest chance they never will some people have never been taught manners and etiquette. I guess my question is the community that strong in players we can send the ones we have away and not feel closer to the end? I do not think so. If there is no place for the Butcher’s of our community then I think I may missed the spirit of the game and Star Trek message in general.

So Mini I have no problems with you or KHH or anyone, I just think we could all do a better job at breaking down barriers towards building a league with a more positive gaming experience for everyone than continually breaking each others balls. We have been down this road before and dwelling and digging up the past is probably not the way to proceed. Perhaps a statement of ethics between players is a way to start, most people will not need this but if everyone is given ownership in the process we may get a better result in the end.

“A man lives life as it happens to him, meets it head-on and licks it, or he turns his back on it and starts to wither away.”
Gene Roddenberry



"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2005, 09:16:29 pm »
OMG Mut,and u made me commander of FSD .how do i follow an act like that,after a sweet speech like what u just posted.What's that saying....nerver follow a better act   sheeeeeesh   grumble grumble dammit.Mutt,you are no longer"less than ensign rack,i promote you back to commander of FSD imperial defense force   :)  carry on sir  (S)

Offline Mutilator

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2005, 08:50:11 am »
Sorry TT the job is all yours now.  :P  Will be to hard to administer the fleet from the middle of the north Atlantic... I'll bring you home some rum from the Caribbean or some good ole Irish whiskey from my deployments.  I will not grantee the seals won't be cracked but I promise I'll save you a couple of ounces  Muhahaha!  :drink:
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2005, 09:23:29 am »
Tauma...

just promise me when you start pontificating in Mut's place...

...you use punctuation.

The grammer  :police:

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2005, 09:41:40 am »
Tauma...

just promise me when you start pontificating in Mut's place...

...you use punctuation.

The grammer  :police:


 critics<--- note the "tic" part  everywhere....i'll learn punctuation if u learn how to spelll my name  :)

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2005, 03:19:05 pm »
That's easy...

TRAUMATECH

whew...now that that's over with - punctuation please?

Offline Ronin

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2005, 10:42:39 am »
Lot of nice things said here. And some of it even true. I believe no community should tolerate rudeness. To do so is an invitation for it to continue and to grow, as those who heretofore would never have considered it will in time likely feel that is has become acceptable and, in their frustration, emulate said rudeness. In addition, when leaders tolerate rudeness, whether speaking of fleet leaders or league leaders, those who hold themselves to a higher standard of conduct lose respect for said leaders and are left with the choice of either tolerating rudeness themselves by ignoring it (which is difficult for anyone who has been raised to stand up to rude behavior) or leaving as their only real means of stating their dissatisfaction in the face of the unwillingness of those in charge to demand polite behavior.

Some will paint it as "cultural" or "language" differences. I do not.

It is merely some individuals striking below the belt and leadership standing by and letting it happen.

Two cents worth from someone now standing on the outside looking in...
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In The Beginning -- An unfinished fictionalized account of events surrounding the old Starlance League.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2005, 04:33:19 pm »
The following is from a trade magazine that I subscribe to. I did not type this, I copied and pasted it from the May issue of Realtor Magazine. It has information that, for anyone willing to take the time to read it, is definitely worth the read and certainly relates to the topic in this thread. - Ronin
---------------------------------------

Doing the right thing leads to personal power, prosperity, and a life of meaning.

TAKE THE HIGH ROAD

Mark Twain once remarked that to act morally is noble, but to talk about acting morally is also noble and a lot less trouble. Funny, yes, but misleading. When we begin to understand what acting morally, or ethically, really means, we learn very quickly that the real trouble in life comes from ignoring the insights and requirements of ethics.

Ethics is one of the most important, and most misunderstood, aspects of life. Getting it right—acting with ethical consistency—is the foundation for success. Getting it wrong is a setup for disaster, as so many business headlines over the past few years have indicated.

More than 25 centuries ago, the philosopher Anacharsis described the business practices of his time by saying, “The market is a place set apart where men may deceive one another.” The ancient philosopher Diogenes once carried around a lighted lamp in the middle of the day and, when asked what he was doing, said, “Looking for an honest man.”

There have been saints and scoundrels at every point in history. The saints have understood some important things that the scoundrels never grasped. If we share the right insights, we’ll gain a motivation to resist the temptations that threaten to lure us off the high road of ethical action.

When you think about it, the word ethics itself can be a bit confusing. Is it singular or plural? Oddly, it’s both. We might say, “His ethics are deplorable,” but we could just as easily remark, “Ethics is crucial in business.” This can be worrisome for any of us haunted by the memory of an uncompromising English teacher. But the key to a basic mastery of this word is simple. When we’re talking about the various principles or patterns of action that a person lives by, we tend to speak of ethics in the plural. When we want to refer to the study of such principles, we use the singular.

One more source of potential confusion is that some people use the words ethics and morality differently, limiting the former to professional and business contexts and the latter to personal matters. I’ve heard people say, “I wear one hat at work and another hat at home.” I like to reply, “Yes, but you wear them both on the same head.” I use the words ethics and morality as synonyms, meaning roughly the same thing.

Life is confusing enough without letting our words wrap us in needless perplexity. The problem with our modern view of ethics has less to do with grammar than with a fundamental misunderstanding over what ethics is really all about.

Understanding the heart of ethics

People tend to think that ethics is about staying out of trouble. That’s why corporate and industry discussions of ethics often center on issues of law, regulation, and codes of conduct. If you believe ethics is about staying out of trouble, you can be tempted to accept any alternative way of avoiding trouble as a substitute for real ethics. Enron has become a case study in this kind of thinking. Some very smart executives came to believe that complex and creative accounting practices would keep them out of trouble. Catastrophic failure was the result. Ancient philosophers recognized that ethics is really about creating strength. Ethical action produces a form of strength grounded in trust that nothing else can duplicate.

It’s important to understand that ethics and the law overlap but are distinct. Consider the fact that, throughout history, ethical people have often felt they were morally obligated to disobey grossly unjust laws while working to see them changed. On the other side, sometimes the law is silent but the demands of ethics are clear. To use a common real estate example, it’s not against the law to talk buyers into more house than they can comfortably afford. Yet many practitioners say they’d never operate that way, because it is wrong and would undermine their reputation.

In ancient Greek, the word ethos, from which we get our term ethics, actually meant character, not rules or regulations. Ethos has to do with the integrity of a person’s character. Our term integrity comes from the same root word as integer, which means whole number, and the word integrate, which means to bring together into a greater unity or wholeness.

Integrity is about wholeness, unity, and harmony. When you make a decision, do you always act in harmony with your most fundamental beliefs and values? Are your words united with the truth? These are questions of integrity and character. Understanding this helps us avoid the common belief that ethics is a matter of restraint and restriction, involving rules that tell us we can’t do what we might really enjoy, and benefit from, doing.

My dad owned a real estate company that focused on large residential land development. He went out of his way to be helpful to—and honest with—his clients and prospects. As a result, his reputation for integrity spread. I remember that, in the course of his career, he sold the same piece of land—250 acres—six times. When each owner or group of owners decided to sell, they came back to my father to handle the transaction. They all did well in their investment, and my dad did very well, too. His success was rooted in his character. Strong character is a foundation for strong business.

As my dad demonstrated to me every day, personal power comes from being honest with yourself, candid with others, dependable, courageous, caring, persistent, and creative. These qualities create character and are all relevant to ethical living. When you understand this, you no longer see ethics as mainly about staying out of trouble.

How to be ethical every day

There’s another aspect of the modern misunderstanding of ethics—that it’s mainly about big, complex headline-grabbing challenges. In reality, ethics is mostly about the little things: How do we act toward those around us? Are we a blessing or a curse to those who cross our path? Do others see us as short-tempered, insulting, dismissive, or arrogant—or rather as kind and caring? Do we get back to people with answers to their questions, or do we ignore their needs when we think we can get away with it? Are we as good as our word, or do we expect a free pass in life? These everyday things are the basic ingredients of ethical living.

Sometimes, of course, we face difficult questions; ethical demands pull us in opposite directions. This can happen when loyalties to more that one person or institution are in play, as for example when you’re both the listing agent for a property and also representing a prospective buyer.

Figuring out what to do in such situations isn’t always easy; that’s why codes of ethics are so critical. But the decision always involves treating others as well as we possibly can. It always means treating others the way we’d want to be treated if we were in their place.

I’ve just stated a version of the most famous ethical rule of all, the Golden Rule. It’s a principle recognized by the wisest people in every developed culture, and it’s as relevant to modern life as our latest technology. Other people respond to Golden Rule treatment and find it difficult not to treat us well in turn. I think of this rule as the most important tool there is for ethical living.

A top resort property salesperson told me about a sad incident he recently witnessed. Another salesperson had just listed a property, and two well-informed prospective buyers called him to discuss it. When he told them the price, they said it was far below the true value. They discovered the next day the property was no longer on the market. Surprised, they asked around and learned that he’d bought it for himself. Did the salesperson do anything illegal? That’s actually irrelevant. He hadn’t lived the Golden Rule. He had abused his position, damaging his client and his own reputation. Short-term greed created a situation of long-term loss. And it always does.

Ethical decisions can sometimes be complicated, and applying the Golden Rule doesn’t guarantee we’ll make the right decision. However, it can refocus our minds, remind us of consequences, and nudge us in the right direction.

Sometimes you might find it difficult to do the right thing under pressure. Basically good people can be tempted to break the ethical rules in the same way they might drive five miles an hour over the speed limit. But principles like the Golden Rule aren’t like highway laws. They’re rooted in universals of human nature. We all know that, as important as our speed limits are, they could have been set a little higher or lower. It’s possible to violate them on occasion without obvious harm and for what you feel is a greater good. The problem is that this can contribute to a relaxed attitude toward all limits. As Socrates taught us long ago, whenever we cross the moral line, it always causes harm—at least in own souls.

The late British philosopher and novelist Iris Murdoch pointed out in her book The Sovereignty of Good that if we think and act well in the normal course of business and life, valuing the right things, then when a difficult decision arises, we may find to our surprise that the decision has already been made for us by those structures of value and care that we’ve long been developing. Life is habit—and if we take care in the little things, the big things won’t be so hard to get right.

It helps to have friends and mentors with whom we can honestly discuss our trials and struggles. But ultimately it’s up to each of us to remind ourselves that the strength that comes from ethics can’t be had any other way. It’s up to each of us to resist the occasional illusions that there are shortcuts to happiness to be had outside the realm of ethical action.

As Socrates reminds us, we each have to ask ourselves what sort of life is best worth living and whether our actions support that life or undermine it. The ethical path is the only reliable road to a life of fulfillment and meaning. Why should we ever settle for anything less?
"Flying Romulan takes cunning. You either have it... or you die."

In The Beginning -- An unfinished fictionalized account of events surrounding the old Starlance League.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2005, 04:33:45 pm »
And finally, from the same magazine...
-----------------------------------------------

The six tests of ethical action

There are simple tests we can use to evaluate the ethical appropriateness of our actions. These little thought experiments can help us gain mental clarity and get our moral bearings, especially when some measure of financial gain, power, or status is at stake, and we might be tempted to rationalize an action that we know to be wrong. Oscar Wilde famously admitted, “I can resist everything but temptation.” These tests can help us to resist even that.

The publicity test. Ask, “Would I want to see this action described on the front page of the local paper?” or “How would I feel about having done this if everyone, including the people I love, were to find out?”

The transparency test. Ask, “Could I give a clear explanation for the action, including an honest and transparent account of my motives, that would satisfy a fair and dispassionate moral judge?”

The moral mentor test. Carry around the image of a wise and good person you admire: a parent or friend, a professional mentor, or a great moral example from history, such as Jesus or Gandhi. Ask: “What would my moral mentor do in this situation?”

The admired observer test. A variant on the two previous tests, this one recommends that we ask, “Would I want my moral mentor to see me doing this?” or “What would make my moral mentor proud of me in this situation?”

The man/woman in the mirror test. Avoiding all questions of weight, hair color, the exigencies of a bad hair day, bloodshot eyes, bags, and wrinkles, ask, “Will I be able to look at myself in the mirror and respect the person I see there?”

The Golden Rule test. Ask, “Would I like to be on the receiving end of this action and its potential consequences? Am I treating others the way I’d want to be treated?”
"Flying Romulan takes cunning. You either have it... or you die."

In The Beginning -- An unfinished fictionalized account of events surrounding the old Starlance League.

Offline Mutilator

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Re: Sportsmanship
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2005, 05:49:27 pm »
Excellent reads Ronin.  :goodpost:

My posting since we have moved to Dyna forums have always tried to take into account how will the post reflect on FSD and myself.  I have usually applied a variation of test 1 - 3. I try not to return a gutter post or personal attack with the same. For persons that flame my fleet or myself on public forms I have been sending PMs or emails to these individuals to try to deal with the matter out of the public eye. I found this method is quicker and most people are not as defensive when dealing with the matter in private, it has the added bonus of preventing third parties from jumping into those types of debates with more flames. If either side can divert a thread that is turning sour and try a place a positive tone to it as opposed to add fuel to the flames perhaps they would die out quicker. (My main thinking re: ISC, FEDX and KEG in the past for FSD) I have also policed FSD to try and ensure we are not starting or fanning the flames.

While I disagree on your comment of "Some will paint it as "cultural" or "language" differences." ... I live in a mixed cultured/language community some things that seem ignorant to me are part of normal life for those that live here and vice versa for friends of mine that have visited places outside of their community, perhaps it gives merit to the expression "When in Rome".  I have gotten into many arguments with people over word selection as it means something other than what was intended by the speaker to the receiver. While manners and ethics should be reasonable understanding for most people there are those that need to be cultured to their society or situation. By no means do I accept or should we as a community allow ignorance.  I think how we responded to it is what needs to be looked at. 



"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte