Topic: Russians will be the first to mine the moon  (Read 8601 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« on: August 19, 2005, 05:07:58 pm »
Russia Plans Moon Exploration

 
Zhukovsky, Moscow Region (SPX) Aug 19, 2005
Russia's aerospace corporation Energiya, intends to begin producing helium III, an environmentally clean fuel that cannot be produced on Earth, on the Moon, reports RIA Novosti
Energiya President Nikolai Sevastyanov announced the news at a press conference at the MAKS 2005 air show Thursday.

"This is the thermonuclear energy of the future, a new environmentally clean fuel that cannot be produced on Earth," Sevastyanov said. "We are talking about the industrial exploration of the Moon for helium III production."

The corporation also plans to launch a transportation service between Earth and the Moon using Soyuz rockets.



Offline prometheus

  • Hot and Spicy
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3610
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 05:50:21 pm »
It's about time this happened...  Maybe this will make other agencies like NASA and the ESA raise their game a bit...  Or to be more exact, make governments allocate more funding to such agencies...


To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the Universe!

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 07:14:58 pm »
WTF? Helium III? As a fuel? Helium is a noble gas - completely inert. Are we talking fusion here? (Helium is usually a product of naturally occuring solar fusion. It is not usually a starting point from what I know. Granted, heavier elements are fused deeper in stars, I understand...)

Helium III does not even make any sense to me. The stable isotope of helium is two protons and two neutrons as I recall, where is this "III" coming from?

Got a link for this? Methinks someone is pulling your leg...

Ah, "This is the thermonuclear energy of the future"... it is fusion they speak of... odd to start with helium... (also to be pedantic - they're talking production, not mining...) 8)

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12925
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2005, 07:22:36 pm »
Got a link for this? Methinks someone is pulling your leg...


Link to full article

Quote
"This is the thermonuclear energy of the future, a new environmentally clean fuel that cannot be produced on Earth," Sevastyanov said. "We are talking about the industrial exploration of the Moon for helium III production."
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 08:51:39 pm »
WTF? Helium III? As a fuel? Helium is a noble gas - completely inert. Are we talking fusion here? (Helium is usually a product of naturally occuring solar fusion. It is not usually a starting point from what I know. Granted, heavier elements are fused deeper in stars, I understand...)

Helium III does not even make any sense to me. The stable isotope of helium is two protons and two neutrons as I recall, where is this "III" coming from?

Got a link for this? Methinks someone is pulling your leg...

Ah, "This is the thermonuclear energy of the future"... it is fusion they speak of... odd to start with helium... (also to be pedantic - they're talking production, not mining...) 8)
If you do fusion starting with HEIII a version of helium with a few extra neutrons the radiation is almost nil and has a halflife of about thirty years. And they do mean mining. it streams to the moon from the sun and because there is no magnetic field it is not deflected like it is on earth. it is self renewing and is gathered by a strip mining like operation.

Offline prometheus

  • Hot and Spicy
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3610
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2005, 03:26:09 am »
It seems the Russians are really raising their game on Space Exploration...  China are seriously considering a voyage to the Moon by the sound of things...  I hope Bush doesn't screw the pooch on this one.  NASA need to be taken seriously and allocated some funding again...


To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the Universe!

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2005, 02:24:05 pm »
Thats not a very "full" article. Not that I am disinclined to believe Stormbringer, but I'll have to do a little research on this or see a more complete description of the nuclear physics at play here before I can believe this...

Spacedaily.com 's source moondaily.com does not seem to have any record of the article...

The article appears word for word here as well: http://en.rian.ru/science/20050818/41181180.html

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2005, 02:27:26 pm »
Erm; I posted an article on HEIII on the moon and why it was important a few months ago. stand by i'll get it again.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2005, 02:31:35 pm »
I doubt this is the exact article but it contains all but the renewal rate data on the resource:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html

Researchers and space enthusiasts see helium-3 as the perfect fuel source.
By Julie Wakefield
Special to SPACE.com
posted: 05:30 pm ET
30 June 2000

 
 
Researchers and space enthusiasts seehelium 3 as the perfect fuel source: extremely potent, nonpolluting, withvirtually no radioactive by-product. Proponents claim its the fuel ofthe 21st century. The trouble is, hardly any of it is found on Earth.But there is plenty of it on the moon.

Society is straining to keep pace withenergy demands, expected to increase eightfold by 2050 as the world populationswells toward 12 billion. The moonjust may be the answer.

"Helium 3 fusion energy may be thekey to future space exploration and settlement," said Gerald Kulcinski,Director of the Fusion Technology Institute (FTI) at the University ofWisconsin at Madison.

Scientists estimate there are about1 million tons of helium 3 on the moon, enough to power the world for thousandsof years. The equivalent of a single space shuttle load or roughly 25 tonscould supply the entire United States' energy needs for a year, accordingto Apollo17 astronaut and FTI researcher Harrison Schmitt.

Cash crop of the moon

When the solar wind, the rapid streamof charged particles emitted by the sun, strikes the moon, helium 3 isdeposited in the powdery soil. Over billions of years that adds up. Meteoritebombardment disperses the particles throughout the top several meters ofthe lunar surface.

"Helium 3 could be the cash crop forthe moon," said Kulcinski, a longtime advocate and leading pioneer in thefield, who envisions the moon becoming "the Hudson Bay Store of Earth."Today helium 3 would have a cash value of $4 billion a ton in terms ofits energy equivalent in oil, he estimates. "When the moon becomes an independentcountry, it will have something to trade."

~
 
 

Fusion research began in 1951 in theUnited States under military auspices. After its declassification in 1957scientists began looking for a candidate fuel source that wouldn't produceneutrons. Although Louie Alvarez and Robert Cornog discovered helium 3in 1939, only a few hundred pounds (kilograms) were known to exist on Earth,most the by-product of nuclear-weapon production.

Apollo astronauts found helium 3 onthe moon in 1969, but the link between the isotope and lunar resourceswas not made until 1986. "It took 15 years for us [lunar geologists andfusion pioneers] to stumble across each other," said Schmitt, the lastastronaut to leave footprints on the moon.

For solving long-term energy needs,proponents contend helium 3 is a better choice than first generation nuclearfuels like deuterium and tritium (isotopes of hydrogen), which are nowbeing tested on a large scale worldwide in tokamak thermonuclear reactors.Such approaches, which generally use strong magnetic fields to containthe tremendously hot, electrically charged gas or plasma in which fusionoccurs, have cost billions and yielded little. The International ThermonuclearExperimental Reactor or ITER tokamak, for example, won't produce a singlewatt of electricity for several years yet.

Increases production and safety costs

"I don't doubt it will eventually work,"Kulcinski said. "But I have serious doubts it will ever provide an economicpower source on Earth or in space." That's because reactors that exploitthe fusion of deuterium and tritium release 80 percent of their energyin the form of radioactive neutrons, which exponentially increase productionand safety costs.

In contrast, helium 3 fusion wouldproduce little residual radioactivity. Helium 3, an isotope of the familiarhelium used to inflate balloons and blimps, has a nucleus with two protonsand one neutron. A nuclear reactor based on the fusion of helium 3 anddeuterium, which has a single nuclear proton and neutron, would producevery few neutrons -- about 1 percent of the number generated by the deuterium-tritiumreaction. "You could safely build a helium 3 plant in the middle of a bigcity," Kulcinski said.

Helium 3 fusion is also ideal for poweringspacecraft and interstellar travel. While offering the high performancepower of fusion -- "a classic Buck Rogers propulsion system" -- helium3 rockets would require less radioactive shielding, lightening the load,said Robert Frisbee, an advanced propulsion engineer at NASA's Jet PropulsionLaboratory in Pasadena California.

Recently Kulcinski's team reports progresstoward making helium 3 fusion possible. Inside a lab chamber, the Wisconsinresearchers have produced protons from a steady-state deuterium-helium3 plasma at a rate of 2.6 million reactions per second. That's fast enoughto produce fusion power but not churn out electricity. "It's proof of principle,but a long way from producing electricity or making a power source outof it," Kulcinski said. He will present the results in Amsterdam in midJuly at the Fourth International Conference on Exploration and Utilizationof the Moon.

Size of a basketball

The chamber, which is roughly the sizeof a basketball, relies on the electrostatic focusing of ions into a densecore by using a spherical grid, explained Wisconsin colleague John Santarius,a study co-author. With some refinement, such Inertial Electrostatic Confinement(IEC) fusion systems could produce high-energy neutrons and protons usefulin industry and medicine. For example, the technology could generate short-livedPET (positron emission tomography) isotopes on site at hospitals, enablingsafe brain scans of young children and even pregnant women. Portable IECdevices could bridge the gap between today's science-based research andthe ultimate goal of generating electricity, Santarius said.

~
 
 

This fall, the University of Wisconsinteam hopes to demonstrate a third-generation fusion reaction between helium3 and helium 3 particles in the lab. The reaction would be completely voidof radiation.

"Although helium 3 would be very exciting,"says Bryan Palaszewski, leader of advanced fuels at NASA Glenn ResearchCenter at Lewis Field, "first we have to go back to the moon and be capableof doing significant operations there."

Economically unfeasible

Indeed for now, the economics of extractingand transporting helium 3 from the moon are also problematic. Even if scientistssolved the physics of helium 3 fusion, "it would be economically unfeasible,"asserted Jim Benson, chairman of SpaceDev in Poway, California, which strivesto be one of the first commercial space-exploration companies. "UnlessI'm mistaken, you'd have to strip-mine large surfaces of the moon."

While it's true that to produce roughly70 tons of helium 3, for example, a million tons of lunar soil would needto be heated to 1,470 degrees Fahrenheit (800 degrees Celsius) to liberatethe gas, proponents say lunar strip mining is not the goal. "There's enoughin the Mare Tranquillitatis alone to last for several hundred years," Schmittsaid. The moon would be a stepping stone to other helium 3-rich sources,such as the atmospheres of Saturn and Uranus.

Benson agreed that finding fuel sourcesin space is the way to go. But for him, H2O and not helium 3 is the idealfuel source. His personal goal is to create gas stations in space by miningasteroids for water. The water can be electrolyzed into hydrogen or oxygenfuel or used straight as a propellant by superheating with solar arrays."Water is more practical and believable in the short run," he said.

But proponents believe only helium3 can pay its own way.

"Water just isn't that valuable," Schmittsaid. Besides the helium, a mining process would produce water and oxygenas by-products, he says.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2005, 02:35:08 pm »
Thanks Stormbringer, gimmie a bit to absorb that, I seem to be finding plenty of "mythology" on "Helium III" all over the net... none of it too credible yet.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2005, 02:37:15 pm »
I highly doubt space.com, and the other sites i use to keep abreast of science and technology publish mythology.  ;)

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2005, 02:43:27 pm »
Not intentionally of course, but people can get a little excited and jump the gun on this kind of thing...

The article you posted helped me swallow this a bit easier but this part makes me wonder about the wisdom in planning a moon mission on the basis of the assumption:

Quote
Recently Kulcinski's team reports progress toward making helium 3 fusion possible. Inside a lab chamber, the Wisconsinresearchers have produced protons from a steady-state deuterium-helium3 plasma at a rate of 2.6 million reactions per second. That's fast enoughto produce fusion power but not churn out electricity. "It's proof of principle,but a long way from producing electricity or making a power source out of it," Kulcinski said. He will present the results in Amsterdam in midJuly at the Fourth International Conference on Exploration and Utilizationof the Moon.

I want to see the reaction and products... and peer-reviewed journal publications...

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2005, 02:49:28 pm »
Not intentionally of course, but people can get a little excited and jump the gun on this kind of thing...

The article you posted helped me swallow this a bit easier but this part makes me wonder about the wisdom in planning a moon mission on the basis of the assumption:

Quote
Recently Kulcinski's team reports progress toward making helium 3 fusion possible. Inside a lab chamber, the Wisconsinresearchers have produced protons from a steady-state deuterium-helium3 plasma at a rate of 2.6 million reactions per second. That's fast enoughto produce fusion power but not churn out electricity. "It's proof of principle,but a long way from producing electricity or making a power source out of it," Kulcinski said. He will present the results in Amsterdam in midJuly at the Fourth International Conference on Exploration and Utilizationof the Moon.

I want to see the reaction and products... and peer-reviewed journal publications...

the reaction equation should be fairly easy to find something like that should be in at least some layman level articles.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 02:57:59 pm »
Going to dig out my CRC handbook now...

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2005, 03:00:26 pm »

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2005, 03:03:22 pm »
still looking for He III equation

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2005, 03:06:21 pm »
Here is a partial he3 fusion reaction equation:  D + 3He -------> p(14.7meV) + 4He(3.7meV) + 18.4meV

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2005, 03:07:09 pm »

Dueterium reaction equations: 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nucene/fusion.html#c4


Looks reasonable to me, but where's the "Helium III" as a stable reactant?

still looking for He III equation


Oh, cool... lemme go dig for my CRC, wanna see if 32He is a stable isotope...

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2005, 03:09:16 pm »
Here is a partial he3 fusion reaction equation:  D + 3He -------> p(14.7meV) + 4He(3.7meV) + 18.4meV


Looks plausible, still haven't dug my CRC out yet though.. lol!

The next question of course is, has anyone built a stable reactor with it?

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2005, 03:14:59 pm »
Look at the bottom equation:



the ITER reactor and a project the french and japanese are now building is believed to be not only stable but will achieve break even. however there are alternative designs and concepts that may be more economical and even portable. such as the collapsing bubble cavitation tabletop design.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2005, 03:23:32 pm »
of course He III is stable. if not it would not be able to accumulate on the moon for billions of years. as you know we have to manufacture tritium because it decays in ten years and so does not occur naturally in nature.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2005, 03:24:23 pm »
OK, finally got the ol "rubber bible" out (1988 edition):

2He3 has a natural abundance of 0.00014%, is a stable isotope, has a thermal neutron cross section of <0.1 mb (aye there's the rub...) a spin of 1/2 (a bonus for detection and monitoring) and a nuclear magnetic moment of -2.12762...

Ah, so it is a stable reactant that is easliy monitored - good start. I'm starting to believe.

Now we just need a working reactor to justify a moon mission... that thermal neutron cross section of <0.1 millibarns will make that pretty difficult, it is considerably smaller than the values for deuterium or the proton... (0.3-0.5 mb)  (mb = 10-27 cm2)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 03:34:39 pm by Bonk »

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2005, 03:28:47 pm »
There is a trade off in energy output but it is in exchange for no induced radiation or dangerous byproducts.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2005, 03:29:00 pm »
of course He III is stable.

Yes, I know that now, I'm just the "doubting Thomas" type - its instinct as an analytical chemist... (see my last post above)

Quote
as you know we have to manufacture tritium because it decays in ten years and so does not occur naturally in nature.

1H3 has a half-life of 12.26 years and no natural abundance - correct.

I hope you're not offended by this discussion at all, I appreciate you humouring me in this a great deal.  :thumbsup:

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2005, 03:31:08 pm »
Oh, if it offended me i would not participate.  ;)

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2005, 03:32:24 pm »
Oh, if it offended me i would not participate.  ;)

Coolness! This has been fun! Not too many people around to geek out on science like this with! Most of my family and friends run scared...

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2005, 03:36:30 pm »
The EU fusion reactor being built now should achieve breakeven at some point but will not be able to do so with the HE III. however it will both prove the concept and lead to refinements that should make fusion more practical. I however think that fusion will not be a practical solution unless alternative schemes are brought to fruition such as the cheap table top version much talked about in science circles recently. who knows it might work with HE III. if it does then there is no reason it could not be as ubiquitous as batteries. (almost)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2005, 03:41:13 pm »
Oh, if it offended me i would not participate.  ;)

Coolness! This has been fun! Not too many people around to geek out on science like this with! Most of my family and friends run scared...

tell me about it. and it is not as if the subject is incomprehensible. all it takes is interest and a modicum of study.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2005, 05:29:05 am »
Palmtop Nuclear Fusion Device Invented
By Michael Schirber
LiveScience Staff Writer
posted: 27 April 2005
01:00 pm ET
 
 

The nuclear reaction that powers the Sun has been reproduced in a pocket-sized device, scientists announced today.

Researchers have for years tried to harness nuclear fusion to power the world. But its cousin, nuclear fission -- the breaking apart of atoms -- is the only method so far commercially viable.

The latest invention is not in the same league as efforts to build complex commercial reactors. The new device creates a relatively small number of reactions, and requires more energy to operate than it produces.

The Real Deal
 
(AP) - Previous claims of tabletop fusion have been met with skepticism and even derision by physicists.

In one of the most notable cases, Dr. B. Stanley Pons of the University of Utah and Martin Fleischmann of Southampton University in England shocked the world in 1989 when they announced that they had achieved so-called cold fusion at room temperature. Their work was discredited after repeated attempts to reproduce it failed.

Fusion experts noted that the new UCLA experiment is credible because, unlike the 1989 work, it did not violate basic principles of physics.

"This doesn't have any controversy in it because they're using a tried and true method,'' said David Ruzic, professor of nuclear and plasma engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "There's no mystery in terms of the physics.''

-- Associated Press
 
 
 

 

 
But the configuration is so small and simple that its creators think it may inspire unforeseen applications.

"I certainly find it interesting that you can heat a cubic centimeter crystal in your hand, then plunge it in cold water and it will cause nuclear fusion," Seth Putterman from the University of California Los Angeles told LiveScience.

Putterman's lay description greatly oversimplifies how the compact apparatus works.

Specifically, Putterman and collaborators heat a pyroelectric crystal, lithium tantalate, from minus 30 degrees Fahrenheit to plus 45 in a matter of minutes. This generates an electrical charge -- 100,000 volts -- across the tiny crystal, which is housed in a chamber filled with deuterium gas, a heavy form of hydrogen.

The high voltage is focused onto a needle-thin tip, which strips electrons from nearby deuterium nuclei and then accelerates them at a solid target containing deuterium. When two deuterium nuclei collide together at high speed, they fuse to form helium.

The Sun also fuses atoms in nuclear reactions that create light and heat.

The byproduct of the newly discovered lab reaction is a particle called the neutron. The scientists detect about 1,000 neutrons per second. Because neutrons are so penetrating, Putterman said that a hand-held neutron source might one-day be used to do geologic surveys or to look into cargo containers for nuclear devices.

"Current neutron generators are extremely cumbersome," Putterman said. "They are about as big as a dentist’s X-ray machine, so you can’t carry them into the field."

Pyroelectric crystals could also provide a beam of ions for use as a microthruster in a miniature spacecraft. The research is described in the April 28 issue of the journal Nature.

 

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2005, 05:39:28 am »
Temperature Inside Collapsing Bubble Four Times That Of Sun

A cinematographic sequence of photos of the growth and implosive collapse of a single bubble (shown in blue) in sulfuric acid irradiated with high intensity ultrasound. The images are shown in false color. Photo by D. Flannigan and K. S. Suslick.
Champaign IL (SPX) Mar 03, 2005
Using a technique employed by astronomers to determine stellar surface temperatures, chemists at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have measured the temperature inside a single, acoustically driven collapsing bubble. Their results seem out of this world.
"When bubbles in a liquid get compressed, the insides get hot - very hot," said Ken Suslick, the Marvin T. Schmidt Professor of Chemistry at Illinois and a researcher at the Beckman Institute for Advanced Science and Technology.

"Nobody has been able to measure the temperature inside a single collapsing bubble before. The temperature we measured - about 20,000 degrees Kelvin - is four times hotter than the surface of our sun."

This result, reported in the March 3 issue of the journal Nature by Suslick and graduate student David Flannigan, already has raised eyebrows. Their work is funded by the National Science Foundation and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

Sonoluminescence arises from acoustic cavitation - the formation, growth and implosion of small gas bubbles in a liquid blasted with sound waves above 18,000 cycles per second.

The collapse of these bubbles generates intense local heating. By looking at the spectra of light emitted from these hot spots, scientists can determine the temperature in the same manner that astronomers measure the temperatures of stars.

By substituting concentrated sulfuric acid for the water used in previous measurements, Suslick and Flannigan boosted the brilliance of the spectra nearly 3,000 times. The bubble can be seen glowing even in a brightly lit room. This allowed the researchers to measure the otherwise faint emission from a single bubble.

"It is not surprising that the temperature within a single bubble exceeds that found within a bubble trapped in a cloud," Suslick said. "In a cloud, the bubbles interact, so the collapse isn't as efficient as in an isolated bubble."

What is surprising, however, is the extremely high temperature the scientists measured. "At 20,000 degrees Kelvin, this emission originates from the plasma formed by collisions of atoms and molecules with high-energy particles," Suslick said.

"And, just as you can't see inside a star, we're only seeing emission from the surface of the optically opaque plasma." Plasmas are the ionized gases formed only at truly high energies.

The core of the collapsing bubble must be even hotter than the surface. In fact, the extreme conditions present during single-bubble compression have been predicted by others to produce neutrons from inertial confinement fusion.

"We used to talk about the bubble forming a hot spot in an otherwise cold liquid," Suslick said. "What we know now is that inside the bubble there is an even hotter spot, and outside of that core we are seeing emission from a plasma."



Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2005, 05:40:40 am »
neutrons have been detected along with the heat.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2005, 10:12:55 am »
Wow, someone's been busy...  8)

I was impressed with the pyroelectric crytsal application. (particulary as a mini ion drive) Scaled up (or multiplied) perhaps it could produce more energy than it requires? (would sure beat those pee batteries anway!  ;D)

Now the cavitation results made my skin tingle (seriously...). Ultrasound turns my crank for some reason - so many applications and a powerful diagnostic imaging tool. Funny how the undesired cavitation effects in imaging (gas bubbles in tissue = bad news) could prove to be even more useful than ultrasound as an imaging technology! This one rings a bell for me, I think I've heard of simliar results earlier, (no link sorry). I am rather suspicous that it is a measurement artifact however. I am very suspicious of spectral shift techniques used by astonomers... if neutrons have been detected though, perhaps we have something here... hmmm how to make use of it...

Dang Stormbringer! This is gonna fill my head all day now, and I planned to work on The Forge D2 server some more today... I wanna get some work done on that and get some job applications out, but I definitley want to stew on this idea for a while... most fascinating!

Offline Commander Maxillius

  • You did NOT just shoot that green sh-t at me?!?
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Gender: Female
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2005, 10:02:50 pm »
lithium tantalate.... crystals....

DILITHIUM!!
I was never here, you were never here, this conversation never took place, and you most certainly did not see me.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2005, 10:10:33 pm »
lithium tantalate.... crystals....

DILITHIUM!!

 ;D Heh, didn't think of that... It did make me think of an old forums member Tantalus however, we haven't seen him for over a year though.

Offline Commander Maxillius

  • You did NOT just shoot that green sh-t at me?!?
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Gender: Female
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2005, 10:17:47 pm »
Hehe, yeah, I remember seeing a screenie of Tanty's I-CA ramming a 'roid on the old 2.net site before it got squatted.

Wonder what he's up to...
I was never here, you were never here, this conversation never took place, and you most certainly did not see me.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2005, 10:32:14 pm »
More on Bubble fusion from purdue:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-05zzzu.html

Purdue University researchers Yiban Xu, standing, and Adam Butt, in the foreground, look at a monitor connected to a camera trained on a nearby experiment. The research has yielded evidence supporting earlier findings by other scientists who designed an inexpensive "tabletop" device that uses sound waves to produce nuclear fusion reactions. Xu is a post-doctoral research associate in the Purdue's School of Nuclear Engineering, and Butt is a graduate research assistant in both nuclear engineering and the School of Aeronautics and Astronautics. The technology might one day, in theory, lead to a new source of clean energy and a host of portable detectors and other applications. Purdue News Service - photo by David Umberger.
West Lafayette IN (SPX) Jul 14, 2005
Researchers at Purdue University have new evidence supporting earlier findings by other scientists who designed an inexpensive "tabletop" device that uses sound waves to produce nuclear fusion reactions.
The technology, in theory, could lead to a new source of clean energy and a host of portable detectors and other applications.

The new findings were detailed in a peer-reviewed paper appearing in the May issue of the journal Nuclear Engineering and Design.

The paper was written by Yiban Xu, a post-doctoral research associate in the School of Nuclear Engineering, and Adam Butt, a graduate research assistant in both nuclear engineering and the School of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

A key component of the experiment was a glass test chamber about the size of two coffee mugs filled with a liquid called deuterated acetone, which contains a form of hydrogen known as deuterium, or heavy hydrogen.

The researchers exposed the test chamber to subatomic particles called neutrons and then bombarded the liquid with a specific frequency of ultrasound, which caused cavities to form into tiny bubbles.

The bubbles then expanded to a much larger size before imploding, apparently with enough force to cause thermonuclear fusion reactions.

Fusion reactions emit neutrons that fall within a specific energy range of 2.5 mega-electron volts, which was the level of energy seen in neutrons produced in the experiment. The experiments also yielded a radioactive material called tritium, which is another product of fusion, Xu and Butt said.

The Purdue research began two years ago, and the findings represent the first confirmation of findings reported earlier by Rusi Taleyarkhan. Now at Purdue, Taleyarkhan, the Arden L. Bement Jr. Professor of Nuclear Engineering, discovered the fusion phenomenon while he was a scientist working at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

"The two key signatures for a fusion reaction are emission of neutrons in the range of 2.5 MeV and production of tritium, both of which were seen in these experiments," Xu said.

The same results were not seen when the researchers ran control experiments with normal acetone, providing statistically significant evidence for the existence of fusion reactions.

"The control experiments didn't show anything," Xu said. "We changed just one parameter, substituting the deuterated acetone with normal acetone."

Deuterium contains one proton and one neutron in its nucleus. Normal hydrogen contains only one proton in its nucleus.

Taleyarkhan led a research team that first reported the phenomenon in a 2002 paper published in the journal Science.

Those researchers later conducted additional research at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the Russian Academy of Sciences and wrote a follow-up paper that appeared in the journal Physical Review E in 2004, just after Taleyarkhan had come to Purdue.

Scientists have long known that high-frequency sound waves cause the formation of cavities and bubbles in liquid, a process known as "acoustic cavitation," and that those cavities then implode, producing high temperatures and light in a phenomenon called "sonoluminescence."

In the Purdue research, however, the liquid was "seeded" with neutrons before it was bombarded with sound waves. Some of the bubbles created in the process were perfectly spherical, and they imploded with greater force than irregular bubbles.

The research yielded evidence that only spherical bubbles implode with a force great enough to cause deuterium atoms to fuse together, similar to the way in which hydrogen atoms fuse in stars to create the thermonuclear furnaces that make stars shine.

Nuclear fusion reactors have historically required large, expensive machines, but acoustic cavitation devices might be built for a fraction of the cost. Researchers have estimated that temperatures inside the imploding bubbles reach 10 million degrees Celsius and pressures comparable to 1,000 million earth atmospheres at sea level.

Xu and Butt now work in Taleyarkhan's lab, but all of the research on which the new paper is based was conducted before they joined the lab, and the research began at Purdue before Taleyarkhan had become a Purdue faculty member.

The two researchers used an identical "carbon copy" of the original test chamber designed by Taleyarkhan, and they worked under the sponsorship and direction of Lefteri Tsoukalas, head of the School of Nuclear Engineering.

Although the test chamber was identical to Taleyarkhan's original experiment, and the Purdue researchers were careful to use deuterated acetone, they derived the neutrons from a less-expensive source than the Oak Ridge researchers.

The scientists working at Oak Ridge seeded the cavities with a "pulse neutron generator," an apparatus that emits rapid pulses of neutrons. Xu and Butt derived neutrons from a radioactive material that constantly emits neutrons, and they simply exposed the test chamber to the material.

Development of a low-cost thermonuclear fusion generator would offer the potential for a new, relatively safe and low-polluting energy source.

Whereas conventional nuclear fission reactors make waste products that take thousands of years to decay, the waste products from fusion plants would be short-lived, decaying to non-dangerous levels in a decade or two.

For the same unit mass of fuel, a fusion power plant would produce 10 times more energy than a fission reactor, and because deuterium is contained in seawater, a fusion reactor's fuel supply would be virtually infinite.

A cubic kilometer of seawater would contain enough heavy hydrogen to provide a thousand years' worth of power for the United States.

Such a technology also could result in a new class of low-cost, compact detectors for security applications that use neutrons to probe the contents of suitcases; devices for research that use neutrons to analyze the molecular structures of materials; machines that cheaply manufacture new synthetic materials and efficiently produce tritium, which is used for numerous applications ranging from medical imaging to watch dials; and a new technique to study various phenomena in cosmology, including the workings of neutron stars and black holes.

The desktop experiment is safe because, although the reactions generate extremely high pressures and temperatures, those extreme conditions exist only in small regions of the liquid in the container - within the collapsing bubbles, Xu said.

Purdue researchers plan to release additional data from related experiments in October during the Nuclear Reactor Thermal Hydraulics conference in Avignon, France.

The 2004 paper was written by Taleyarkhan while a distinguished scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, postdoctoral fellow J.S Cho at Oak Ridge Associated Universities; Colin West, a retired scientist from Oak Ridge; Richard T. Lahey Jr., the Edward E. Hood Professor of Engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI); R.C. Nigmatulin, a visiting scholar at RPI and president of the Russian Academy of Sciences' Bashkortonstan branch; and Robert C. Block, active professor emeritus in the School of Engineering at RPI and director of RPI's Gaerttner Linear Accelerator Laboratory.

be even funnier if we call it some thing like Ronco fuso-matic(tm.)




Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2005, 10:33:43 pm »
and a few comments of Big fusion:  (By yours truly in another forum)

but the france facility is not doing anything radically different from it's predecessors that achieved fusion. they are simply progressing it so that this facility can reach what is called break even where the reactor puts out more energy than needed to sustain the reaction. they may well do it. but as the culmination of 70 years of research that cost trillions of dollars. and with a facility that not only won't make any money by providing power to the grid but illustrates that no one but world powers can afford that type of fusion and them only just barely.
__________________

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2005, 10:37:05 pm »
From the above article:

 Fusion reactions emit neutrons that fall within a specific energy range of 2.5 mega-electron volts, which was the level of energy seen in neutrons produced in the experiment. The experiments also yielded a radioactive material called tritium, which is another product of fusion, Xu and Butt said.

This confirms fusion occurs in the Ronco Fus-O-matic (tm.)

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2005, 10:08:28 pm »
Ronco Fus-O-matic (tm.)

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12925
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2005, 03:43:48 pm »
Ronco Fus-O-matic (tm.)

That is something to scare a Klingon.  A home fusion device made by Ronco.  I've never owned anything by them but have used a few items and they "left something to be desired" in the quality department.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2005, 12:19:15 pm »
I just mean that the thing is so small simple and relatively inexpensive that it could become quite passe and ubiquitous.

Offline Bonk

  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 13298
  • You don't have to live like a refugee.
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2005, 05:17:12 pm »
I like your vision Stormbringer...  :thumbsup:

What's got me suspicious of the deuterated acetone experiment is exposing it to thermalised (I assume) neutrons prior to exposure to ultrasound... which might explain why an effect is seen with d6 acetone and not acetone (the much greater thermal neutron cross section of the deuterium). i.e. I suspect what is happening is neutron activation instead of fusion as such...  (i.e. expose acetone to thermalised neutrons fro a longer period of time and you might observe the same effect)


Offline Stormbringer

  • Global Moderator
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1984
  • Gender: Male
Re: Russians will be the first to mine the moon
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2005, 05:24:06 pm »
But you can tell the nuetrons by their energy profile plus there is tritium produced. Add to that the fact that the researchers are not novices likely to be fooled by something like that andthe fact that i beleive the results are duplicated by other teams...