Post by: Atrahasis on September 03, 2003, 09:27:58 pm
I was serious about the design similarities between the NX-01 and teh Loknar, which I percieve ot be a frigate design that evolved directly from the NX-01 design. Also, I think TOS should be re-thunk.....that TOS ships should have some kind of hull plating on them, Feds and Klinks alike. What do you think? As always, criticism is welcome.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 03, 2003, 09:46:04 pm
Post by: Marauth on September 03, 2003, 09:46:41 pm
It certainly looks cool and is a nice crossover. But for those of us who still do not accept Enterprise as canon Trek (yes we still exist) it is an anathema to one of the most original TOS designs mutated into this. In english I meant the model is kick ass but I don't like it don't look TOS. TOS does not need to be rethunk BTW because Enterprise is technically not Star Trek - they dropped the line from the title in a hope to attract new viewers so it has never been Star Trek. Just 'based on Star Trek' as the credits say
Oh well.BTW is there any chance at all we'll ever see that series Constitution you showed us well over a year ago? Or maybe even a new one?
Post by: Atrahasis on September 03, 2003, 09:53:07 pm
Post by: Rod O'neal on September 03, 2003, 10:32:01 pm
BTW. Is there a link for it?
Post by: E_Look on September 03, 2003, 10:35:51 pm
chill!
It's a nice model! I know from your posts that you of all people do appreciate good art and good artists, as Atra does and is. So what if it smacks of a B&B product.
Shoot, I never heard of FASA until I got on the original Simxtreme boards for SFC1 and BARELY ever heard of SFB (and never thought about it until I discovered SFC), and really don't care too much for the ship design from those respective games. But I do have and use SFC 1 and 2 models of those designs, as the execution by many of our SFC modelers are, well, sweet!
Post by: Atrahasis on September 03, 2003, 10:35:54 pm
Hehheh but the hull plating stays ~
Post by: E_Look on September 03, 2003, 10:37:47 pm
Just curious, where are they going to be linked to? Is your site still active?
Post by: Captain Ron on September 03, 2003, 10:51:42 pm
As for the look it can be retextured, and probably will be.
Post by: starforce2 on September 03, 2003, 11:04:27 pm
Post by: Chrystoff on September 03, 2003, 11:59:05 pm
Post by: Captain KoraH on September 04, 2003, 12:13:27 am
Post by: sandman69247 on September 04, 2003, 12:28:45 am
Reasonable idea!
I'm not really a fan of Enterprise as a "Trek" series, I do like the show from a pure entertainment/scifi kinda thing. I can see TOS and later ships having hull plating from a purely defensive frame of mind. I mean, shield eventually fail, so if you can have some hull plating to absorb some damage, better survivability. With those nacelles, it definitely looks like a direct decendent of the NX-01, which is a doable *cough* solution to a sticky subject.
Post by: starforce2 on September 04, 2003, 02:25:39 am
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on September 04, 2003, 05:40:31 am
Nice to see your stuff being shown in the community again. This is really and improvement over the original TOS FASA design. Have you considered reinforcing the ENTERPRISE look/theme by perhaps adding a deflector in the front?
Thank you for sharing this.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 04, 2003, 07:24:47 am
Nice to see you back to the world of modeling.
I like what you're doing here. May I make a small suggestion.could you extend the hull plating to incorporate the Egg and Bridge the ship doesn't look quite finished at the moment.
Quote:
Other than that its looking really good in my opinion. I'm also looking forward to seeing some of your older models resurface
and some new ideas from you. Keep up the great work
Thanks so much for sharing this with us and l look forward to conversing with you more in the future.
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on September 04, 2003, 08:04:26 am
Your new model is an excellent endeveaour,
the starship is TOP-DRAWER indeed,
I look forward to downloading it,
Take care,
GeneralWolfe
Post by: Rogue on September 04, 2003, 06:57:24 pm
I think it be a cool little starship and will find a place in the Loknar family for my game. I'm still working on finding homes for FASA in the ship library and starships like that make it more interesting. And more importantly... fun! I'd still pay money to see how you pull off some of the stuff you do making texture maps. If I could do that I'd actualy make a stab at creating meshes.
Post by: E_Look on September 04, 2003, 08:07:49 pm
Quote:
Is it just me or does anyone else get a warm feeling to see Atrahasis post a model again?
I think it be a cool little starship and will find a place in the Loknar family for my game. I'm still working on finding homes for FASA in the ship library and starships like that make it more interesting. And more importantly... fun! I'd still pay money to see how you pull off some of the stuff you do making texture maps. If I could do that I'd actualy make a stab at creating meshes.
Hey, one's got to do what one does best! What was his self-description from his site, The Ark by Atra-Hasis, builder of ships?
Post by: Atrahasis on September 04, 2003, 09:32:49 pm
On a personal note, I did not like the look nor the idea of the Burke until very very recently. However, the more I thought about it, the more the Burke design made sense to me. It is a small ship that would be ideal for a TOS-era small ship in a fleet where you don't have a lot of small ships. You just absolutely have to have a ship that is smaller than the Saladin-destroyer otherwise the fleet compostion does not make much sense. So, I decided it was time to make the Burke, but detail it in consideration to the very early era it first appeared in. The original MK I Loknar is also of a very old vintage, which is why I feel both comfortable and adventurous giving them this NX-01 era look.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 04, 2003, 09:41:23 pm
Post by: E_Look on September 04, 2003, 09:41:50 pm
Post by: Rogue on September 05, 2003, 05:52:50 am
Quote:
To be honest, I didn't like the Burke class design until right now, with your model. And this is not to butter you, but truly, it's a pretty nice job!
You know, I feel like that quite often. Someone like Atrahasis or Anduril or Wicked Zombie or... (just assume this goes on for awhile) make another ubangy starship. And, as a fan and collector, if I offer glowing compliments I feel bad about it. Why? Because I think it reads like "If I appeal to vanity strongly enough perhaps I can weasel another model out of the given designer". Which really isn't the case. I've come to the conclusion that there are already more excellent models than I can find places for. As an example, that great little warbird that WZ did recently, I couldn't find a place for it without bumping what I'm using as a reference for that version. And that happens a lot. I hope these people just understand that their efforts are appreciated and many of them are fun people to talk to. No the library isn't as perfect as it could be. But it is getting to be pretty darned good.
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 05, 2003, 07:11:06 am
I can help you out there Burke class ships Start with ncc 301 range. Nice job by the way.
Looking forward to downloading both ships when your ready to release them
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on September 05, 2003, 09:02:05 am
Why not just be sincere in your compliments,
and then leave it at that?
Consicusly appealling to a 3D Modders vanity,
is instantly detected by the Modder eh,
GeneralWolfe
Quote:Quote:
To be honest, I didn't like the Burke class design until right now, with your model. And this is not to butter you, but truly, it's a pretty nice job!
You know, I feel like that quite often. Someone like Atrahasis or Anduril or Wicked Zombie or... (just assume this goes on for awhile) make another ubangy starship. And, as a fan and collector, if I offer glowing compliments I feel bad about it. Why? Because I think it reads like "If I appeal to vanity strongly enough perhaps I can weasel another model out of the given designer". Which really isn't the case. I've come to the conclusion that there are already more excellent models than I can find places for. As an example, that great little warbird that WZ did recently, I couldn't find a place for it without bumping what I'm using as a reference for that version. And that happens a lot. I hope these people just understand that their efforts are appreciated and many of them are fun people to talk to. No the library isn't as perfect as it could be. But it is getting to be pretty darned good.
Post by: Rogue on September 05, 2003, 12:03:55 pm
Quote:
Rogue,
Why not just be sincere in your compliments,
and then leave it at that?
Consicusly appealling to a 3D Modders vanity,
is instantly detected by the Modder eh,
GeneralWolfe
Why not? I'd rather be understood than not. I just think it comes across like that sometimes. I get such a charge out of acquiring a model that is perfect for a given class that I too find myself hoping for that next missing model for the library. So, I'd rather that the modeler in question is having as much fun making them as I do blowing them into little bitty pieces.
This whole thing is about fun. It's a really good thing to have Atrahasis share a model with us again. If making models is more of a burdon than a labor of love then there is no reason to do it. Undoubtebly people like Atrahasis, Anduril, WZ, Ghost (and so on and so forth) are really important to this little community. They can do things that many of us can't do. But the bottom line is if there is fun to be had. Let there be fun!
Post by: Atrahasis on September 05, 2003, 12:32:36 pm
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on September 05, 2003, 01:45:03 pm
What ever happened to the tri-nacelled D-10B pocket DN you were making?
I'd love to add that to the FASA to SFC collection along with the D-10B with C-7 command boom and C-7 warp engines, lol.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: Atrahasis on September 05, 2003, 02:16:06 pm
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on September 05, 2003, 02:56:43 pm
Hmmm, nice name dropping eh,
Atrahasis,
Anduril,
WZ,
Ghost (and so on and so forth),
GeneralWolfe
Quote:Quote:
Rogue,
Why not just be sincere in your compliments,
and then leave it at that?
Consicusly appealling to a 3D Modders vanity,
is instantly detected by the Modder eh,
GeneralWolfe
Why not? I'd rather be understood than not. I just think it comes across like that sometimes. I get such a charge out of acquiring a model that is perfect for a given class that I too find myself hoping for that next missing model for the library. So, I'd rather that the modeler in question is having as much fun making them as I do blowing them into little bitty pieces.
This whole thing is about fun. It's a really good thing to have Atrahasis share a model with us again. If making models is more of a burdon than a labor of love then there is no reason to do it. Undoubtebly people like Atrahasis, Anduril, WZ, Ghost (and so on and so forth) are really important to this little community. They can do things that many of us can't do. But the bottom line is if there is fun to be had. Let there be fun!
Post by: E_Look on September 05, 2003, 07:38:41 pm
Post by: Azel on September 05, 2003, 07:50:45 pm
Great Models from a Greater Modeller
Awesome work/Theory(tech change)
Welcome back sir
Post by: Atrahasis on September 05, 2003, 09:05:16 pm
I am also finalizing the details on the USS Bonaventure, seen here with my old Connie and Detroyat textures, she'll need her own set eventually:
How does everyone like the matter intakes? If you look very closely, I simulated an inner glow but with the "cage"-like frame, I wasn't satisfied with just plain red intakes.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 05, 2003, 09:13:11 pm
There exists a precedent for this in TNG: In the second season of TNG they built that 4-foot long model of the Enterprise-D, much smaller than the 10-foot one, but the smaller one was better detailed and had bumpy plating all around, like the ERTL/AMT model kit that was released. Hence, we're supposed to assume that the Galaxy was always like that, with bumpy plates. HOWEVER, if you examine the Sovereign you'll notice that although there is patterning on the hull, there is no bumpiness, it is all smoooth. So, you can have these two kinds of hull plating in Starfleet without any continuity problems, in fact you can see it as two avenues of design for Starfleet engineers.
Post by: E_Look on September 05, 2003, 09:20:26 pm
Post by: Atrahasis on September 05, 2003, 09:40:45 pm
I figure people can use it for the Galactic Survey Cruiser.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 05, 2003, 09:46:56 pm
Post by: Captain Ron on September 05, 2003, 10:22:27 pm
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 06, 2003, 05:15:02 am
Quote:
Also finalizing is the Loknar with an engine upgrade! I'm wondering if I should put my Detroyat engines on it or the regular Constitution type.
I'd suggest using the detroyat engines since its an older ship class and the detroyat design series would have been the
next in line So to speak. The next major retrofit would be a full TOS loknar then the TMP.. The Burke design that you have can work very well with the Early Years module that SFB put out no phaser 1 for the feds just phaser 2 and limited photon torps.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 06, 2003, 08:18:03 am
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 06, 2003, 03:46:19 pm
Early heavy Cruiser:
6 phaser type 2 front phasers FH arc side phasers RF R and LF L arcs
2 photon torp note cannot overload the torps
Warp engine = 12
move cost =1
impulse engine =2
lab = 6
4 shuttle
3 Transporteres
10 f-hull
4 r-hull
Early Frigate:
Warp 4 boxes x 2 engines
move cost =1/3
2 impulse engines
3 phaser 2 FH RS LS
2 photon torps
2 Lab
2 trans
2 trac
2 shuttle
5 center hull
if you need any more information Please let me know
Post by: Atrahasis on September 06, 2003, 04:50:06 pm
An update on my Bonaventure: texturing is more or less complete, and it has a much more sophisticated look now with light panelling all over the hull.
Post by: Durin on September 06, 2003, 06:35:46 pm
Post by: Capt. Wildman on September 06, 2003, 08:39:35 pm
Post by: Atrahasis on September 06, 2003, 08:55:24 pm
I think I'll do a USS Essex version of this, which was actually a carrier operations ship after her refit and has different details, and an extra set of phasers in the front.
Post by: Rod O'neal on September 06, 2003, 09:58:51 pm
I can hardly wait 'til you get these up. Thanks so much, man!!!
Post by: Marauth on September 06, 2003, 10:00:09 pm
Now THAT is an Enterprise! IMO It looks better than the NX-01.
BTW Dunno if that's just an old pic or something but the vanes on the top of the nacelles (I forget the technobable name for them) are meant to be filled and have a small extension on the front on the series version. Don't mean to pick at a fine model but it is kind of noticeable.
P.S. Do you have blank textures of the saucer and nacelles so we can make other ships?
P.P.S. would it be okay if I made a Coronado thru-deck carrier out of this?
Post by: Atrahasis on September 06, 2003, 10:30:54 pm
Post by: Atrahasis on September 07, 2003, 02:42:56 am
This model should be pretty useful as the NCL, which accoridng to the SFB specs is not really the Miranda, because it not only appears too early but is more lightly gunned.
Post by: Ducttapewonder on September 07, 2003, 03:38:38 am
Sweet lookin ships you gots there. Good to see you back into SFC modeling again. Cant wait for D/L links
BTW. Is the Ark still gonna be your site? I would like to add a link @ my site but dont know where it should go. Are you gonna have a new site or just update the Ark?
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 07, 2003, 05:03:05 am
I don't have any diagrams of an early CA I do have an issue of Captain's log that shows what I think is an early CA modernized. It was my intention to work on finishing up the Detroyat primary hull schematics and create an early CA using the engines and saucer of that class with an earlier looking secondary hull. I've just got to do the windows around the rim of the saucer.
Regarding the Kearsarge I'm going to send you a listing of SFB Ships this list is by no means complete but it has most of the major classes of ships on it. nice work on the Fed NCL by the way
To See my latest schematics you can join the TreknoGraphx Yahoo groups list this is where I'm showing schematic work
and other material that I'm interested in. If your interested let me know and I'll invite you in.
Post by: Rogue on September 07, 2003, 08:19:56 am
It doesn't take a lot to make me happy really. I've got OP just about the way I want it. Everything else is gravy from here on out. That Kearsarge... gravy. BonHomme Richard... gravy. And that TOS Loknar... gravy. The only things I can't do now is play on D2 as I kill other peoples games. (I'm about ready to cough up money for the bandwidth)
Sorry for going so off topic here. I'm still om my first cup of coffee. But the point is I'm going to stop what I'm doing the moment the downloads for these come on line and go into acquisition mode. I'll probably be humming "It's beginning to feel a lot like Christmas."
Post by: Marauth on September 07, 2003, 09:21:23 am
Quote:
If you could make a Coronado out of this I know I'd sure appreciate it. But the question is why wouldn't you use your fine series Connie?
Erm, possibly because I don't have one. LOL I don't make new models, only kitbash - I've done a low-poly(ish) Oriskany from P81's TMP Connie but wasn't happy with it so I did a CVL and CVS in the same style using WZ's new high-poly(ish) connie and will be naming them the Coronado and Oriskany respectively (I hate that trend in SOTSF that whenever a ship is refitted it's ALWAYS the second ship in the series) I wanted a TOS Coronado to fill out the set as it were.
BTW While I remember, I was going to mention in the last post but forgot - would you be able to do the same hull plating on the Connie there as is on your Surya and Coventry classes that you released before you disappeared? It's that subtle darker hull plating like on the later TMP ships and it looked very cool on the white pre-TOS ships.
The Kearsarge looks a LOT better than the SFB miniature, esp. the bridge dome area and the b/c decks beneath it. Though I think some more individual engines would suit it as the ones it has are directly scaled down (ugh
) versions of the connie's nacelles coz the SFB artists sucked big time they couldn't even be bothered to change the shape of the nacelles.
Post by: Rogue on September 07, 2003, 10:56:32 am
Quote:
Erm, possibly because I don't have one. LOL I don't make new models, only kitbash - I've done a low-poly(ish) Oriskany from P81's TMP Connie but wasn't happy with it so I did a CVL and CVS in the same style using WZ's new high-poly(ish) connie and will be naming them the Coronado and Oriskany respectively (I hate that trend in SOTSF that whenever a ship is refitted it's ALWAYS the second ship in the series) I wanted a TOS Coronado to fill out the set as it were.
TVL, Just to ask, did you know there is a TOS through deck CVL icluded in FD13 pack2? It it aint bad. I would guess it is a colaberation between Anduril and Ghost. If you need it you can download it at FD13 or I could email a copy. And, as a thought, what would you think of installing the TMP engines on Atrahasis's or Schtupp's Ptolemy? It is a needed tug as there isn't a nice one around to my knowledge. Not a major need as the F-tugs are mostly early era stuff but there are a couple of refits that should reflect that.
Post by: wanderer on September 07, 2003, 11:12:50 am
Eagerly awaiting your new releases. Love that Bon Homme Richard!
Post by: Atrahasis on September 07, 2003, 06:42:21 pm
Btw, Bernard, that pic of the Eraly CA is truly inspiring! Was that pic done before or after the "Enterprise" series aired, because it just smacks of NX-01 era tech in a very cool way. Now I must model it.
By the way, could you post or send me some pics of the Old Light Cruiser?
Post by: Atrahasis on September 07, 2003, 06:44:32 pm
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 07, 2003, 07:34:14 pm
Quote:
Eventually I'll resuscitate my old site, the first new DL's though will be from this thread directly.
Btw, Bernard, that pic of the Eraly CA is truly inspiring! Was that pic done before or after the "Enterprise" series aired, because it just smacks of NX-01 era tech in a very cool way. Now I must model it.
By the way, could you post or send me some pics of the Old Light Cruiser?
I figure it came after Enterprise came out if you check out his web site he's got an early frigate drawn up
and it smacks of Enterprise Tech. Texas Class pictures are coming your way would you like size comparison schematics
with a constitution class? I can process those in about half an hour to an hour.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 07, 2003, 07:44:37 pm
Post by: Rogue on September 07, 2003, 08:04:32 pm
One thing I get a kick out of is that in the lore of SFB the only battleships were ever actualy built and fielded were those Klingon B10's. All the others we have been commanding are either conceptual or never got built. I think that I'm going to try that sometime in a modified shiplist. Kill all the BB's but the B10.
Having said all this... I think it better that vessels of the day would have similar appearances as form would follow the function and technology that was mastered at the time. So... ya they would look alike.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 07, 2003, 08:38:26 pm
Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 08, 2003, 03:22:24 am
PS By the way Bernard, is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering? Thanks in advance.
I got the picture of the Early Frigate, it's quite cool! My question tho is in what SFB year did they stop using it? There's no sense in modelling it if it doesnt show up in at least the early era.
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 08, 2003, 05:44:52 am
Quote:
Hey, look at the neat Coronado I made! All it needs is the proper pennants and registry:
PS By the way Bernard, is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering? Thanks in advance.
I got the picture of the Early Frigate, it's quite cool! My question tho is in what SFB year did they stop using it? There's no sense in modelling it if it doesnt show up in at least the early era.
Hi Atrahasis
I sent you the registry's for the Cornado and a schematic design of the Cornado's bigger sister the Cartier class my own
Kit bash on the Cornado so to speak.
Regarding Warp engines constitution Class vessels started with PB31 mod 3 warp engines. The TreknoGraphx List has a Data base of warp engines that I've drawn so far cross referenced with what class of ship they were first used on. Regarding the early frigate Using the SFB time line the first TOS Frigate the Burke class Left the ship yards in Y127.
the Early years frigate was launched in Y85. This is a 42 year difference. If we assume say the space frame has
an operational life of 80 to 100 years then we have a 40 to 60 year overlap where early frigates with some tech up grades are being used. This would be logical since it would take time build up a frigate inventory in the fleet. I don't have federation and empire so I don't know the stats on ship production. I'd assume that eventually as each new frigate that rolled out of the Ship yards replaced an early frigate on a one to one basis not counting ships lost in combat and MIAs.
So there should by some early frigates kicking around in the very early period. I'd suggest take the date of the Burke the -F-FF class frigate in sfc and add 60 years and that will be when the early frigates were completely phased out.
I hope that I answered your question to your satisfaction
Post by: Rogue on September 08, 2003, 07:16:36 am
Quote:
Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.
Then you knew something I didn't... that happens a lot.
I think there was always a conflict portraying James T. Kirk as the elite of the elite, captaining the elite starship in the Federation. And undoubtably it was refered to as the fleet flagship. Which couldn't relate to the way we use flagship today. That would be the command ship in a taskforce, directing fleet operations. Ever notice that most other starship captains in starfleet were either emotionaly unbalanced or so rigid that improvising was not possible? And no one but no one could bring themselves to observe the 'Prime Directive'. Just about every time it is mentioned it is about to be discarded.Anyway, how would you consider that these starships got built? Multiple independent shipyards or a centralized one with many subassemblies built elsewhere. Like Warp nacelles, impulse engines and secondary hulls. I would guess it would be the latter for the reason that the cadets are trained at the academy in San Francisco. That and you figure they would be a little uptight with security constructing their cuttng edge starships. Then, perhaps, some of the more general purpose vessels were built elsewhere to free up sector 001 traffic and resources.
Post by: Chrystoff on September 08, 2003, 07:45:49 am
Quote:
Is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering?
According to Ships of the Starfleet, the Connie originally used PB-31 Model 3 warp units. In fact, it says, "The PB-31 series warp engines are basically unchanged from the date of her commissioning." I saw no reference to a PB-27 engine.
The Coronado apperently started out with (& ended with) the PB-47 engines. No reference or mention is made about any other type of engine. The only pennents shown are TMP era pennants, but I personnaly think it would have had TOS pennents, and then upgraded to TMP pennants after a certain date. But, hey, the TMP ones look great, in my opinion.
Post by: Atrahasis on September 08, 2003, 05:34:06 pm
Quote:
Regarding the early frigate Using the SFB time line the first TOS Frigate the Burke class Left the ship yards in Y127.
the Early years frigate was launched in Y85. This is a 42 year difference. If we assume say the space frame has
an operational life of 80 to 100 years then we have a 40 to 60 year overlap where early frigates with some tech up grades are being used. This would be logical since it would take time build up a frigate inventory in the fleet. I don't have federation and empire so I don't know the stats on ship production. I'd assume that eventually as each new frigate that rolled out of the Ship yards replaced an early frigate on a one to one basis not counting ships lost in combat and MIAs.
So there should by some early frigates kicking around in the very early period. I'd suggest take the date of the Burke the -F-FF class frigate in sfc and add 60 years and that will be when the early frigates were completely phased out.
I hope that I answered your question to your satisfaction
Hmmmm I think adding 60 years to the Burke date for the termination date of the Early Frigate is a bit too much, because that works out to be 2297, by which time they had Enterprise-B class ships operational, and is well after ST:VII. Having the early frigfate in the game would be nice but the dates just don't seem to match.....if the standard Burke was 2237 then that means you'd need the early Frigates aorund for 27 years to reach 2263, which is the earliest date in the game. But I do see your point about needing time to create a large FF fleet after the Burke was commissioned. According to the SFB fleet list you gave me, they made about 122 Burkes, not inlcuding the later variants. That works out to be 4.5 Frigates made per year until 2263, but then that's assuming that is the date that constrcution was stopped, which is probably an incorrect guess.
The question is: Could they have had a few of the Early Frigates around by 2263, and if so for how many years? If it's just for a few years more then it's probably not worth my time making it for the game.
However, the Early Heavy Cruiser is pretty cool....do you have dates for it?
Post by: Atrahasis on September 08, 2003, 05:37:30 pm
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Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.
Then you knew something I didn't... that happens a lot.
Anyway, how would you consider that these starships got built? Multiple independent shipyards or a centralized one with many subassemblies built elsewhere. Like Warp nacelles, impulse engines and secondary hulls. I would guess it would be the latter for the reason that the cadets are trained at the academy in San Francisco. That and you figure they would be a little uptight with security constructing their cuttng edge starships. Then, perhaps, some of the more general purpose vessels were built elsewhere to free up sector 001 traffic and resources.
Well, according to Ships of the Starfleet, the components were made by companies from all over the Federation, like the Phasers made in Italy, and the warp engines made on Alpha Centauri, and other components made on Andor. The yards are for consturcting the main hull and assembling these pieces together I imagine. They had different yards, there are at least two that we can attest are canon: The San Francisco Yards and Utopia Planitia on Mars.
Post by: ActiveX on September 08, 2003, 05:39:50 pm
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Also, the reference to only a dozen Connies was the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" wher ethe ship travels back to the 1960's by accident and they pick up that airforce pilot. Kirk mentions "There are only a dozen like it in the fleet". Franz Joseph got around that by having the 1701 be a part of the Constitution class but there also being a better version called the BonHomme Richard class, of which dozens were built, and the USS Defiant that disappears in "The Tholian Web" was one of these.
Then you knew something I didn't... that happens a lot.
Anyway, how would you consider that these starships got built? Multiple independent shipyards or a centralized one with many subassemblies built elsewhere. Like Warp nacelles, impulse engines and secondary hulls. I would guess it would be the latter for the reason that the cadets are trained at the academy in San Francisco. That and you figure they would be a little uptight with security constructing their cuttng edge starships. Then, perhaps, some of the more general purpose vessels were built elsewhere to free up sector 001 traffic and resources.
Well, according to Ships of the Starfleet, the components were made by companies from all over the Federation, like the Phasers made in Italy, and the warp engines made on Alpha Centauri, and other components made on Andor. The yards are for consturcting the main hull and assembling these pieces together I imagine. They had different yards, there are at least two that we can attest are canon: The San Francisco Yards and Utopia Planitia on Mars.
And it would make sense if there were more than just these two yards for non Starship vessels...
Trek din deal much with how the ships were built, just launch and everything else came after...
Post by: Atrahasis on September 08, 2003, 05:40:54 pm
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Is there a reference in Ships of the Starfleet about the type of warp engine used by the Connie before the PB-32 (BonHomme) engines were employed? I seem to recall a refernce to a PB-27 but I'm not sure on that. If you could verify that for me it'd help. Also, did the Coronado start with the PB-32 but got PB-47's later, or was it built from the start with PB-47's? Also, did the Coronado start with the BonHomme-style pennants and lettering (TOS) or with the TMP style pennants and lettering?
According to Ships of the Starfleet, the Connie originally used PB-31 Model 3 warp units. In fact, it says, "The PB-31 series warp engines are basically unchanged from the date of her commissioning." I saw no reference to a PB-27 engine.
The Coronado apperently started out with (& ended with) the PB-47 engines. No reference or mention is made about any other type of engine. The only pennents shown are TMP era pennants, but I personnaly think it would have had TOS pennents, and then upgraded to TMP pennants after a certain date. But, hey, the TMP ones look great, in my opinion.
Thanks for the info, again this helps quite a bit. The Coronado and the Dreadnought both seemed to have started with the PB47's, but even then the PB-32's were still being used by a lot of ships and some ships never got upgraded to the PB-47's, like the Essex that I recall just had its PB-32's patched and improved over time. The Coronado seems to be almost a "Phase II" ship, appearing in that time between TOS and TMP.
Who thinks that PB-47-equipped ships should have greater warp engine power than the 15-point box?
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 08, 2003, 06:25:12 pm
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Regarding the early frigate Using the SFB time line the first TOS Frigate the Burke class Left the ship yards in Y127.
the Early years frigate was launched in Y85. This is a 42 year difference. If we assume say the space frame has
an operational life of 80 to 100 years then we have a 40 to 60 year overlap where early frigates with some tech up grades are being used. This would be logical since it would take time build up a frigate inventory in the fleet. I don't have federation and empire so I don't know the stats on ship production. I'd assume that eventually as each new frigate that rolled out of the Ship yards replaced an early frigate on a one to one basis not counting ships lost in combat and MIAs.
So there should by some early frigates kicking around in the very early period. I'd suggest take the date of the Burke the -F-FF class frigate in sfc and add 60 years and that will be when the early frigates were completely phased out.
I hope that I answered your question to your satisfaction
Hmmmm I think adding 60 years to the Burke date for the termination date of the Early Frigate is a bit too much, because that works out to be 2297, by which time they had Enterprise-B class ships operational, and is well after ST:VII. Having the early frigfate in the game would be nice but the dates just don't seem to match.....if the standard Burke was 2237 then that means you'd need the early Frigates aorund for 27 years to reach 2263, which is the earliest date in the game. But I do see your point about needing time to create a large FF fleet after the Burke was commissioned. According to the SFB fleet list you gave me, they made about 122 Burkes, not inlcuding the later variants. That works out to be 4.5 Frigates made per year until 2263, but then that's assuming that is the date that constrcution was stopped, which is probably an incorrect guess.
The question is: Could they have had a few of the Early Frigates around by 2263, and if so for how many years? If it's just for a few years more then it's probably not worth my time making it for the game.
However, the Early Heavy Cruiser is pretty cool....do you have dates for it?
Damn I forgot that the SFC F-FF is based on the TMP Okinawa class. Thats what I get for trying to answer a question at 5 am.
The lay out is Burke class which is Constitution Class Era Technology. I'd say yes they'd have a few early frigates around 2263. If the Texas class light cruisers were still operational why not a few frigates perhaps part of a mothball fleet or used as reservest ships or even training vessels. I'd say phased Completely by 2273 this way the Burkes first class of Burkes are past the mid point of thier operational life time and the Hottest frigate coming out of the ship yards is the Okinawa class or some other hottie .Early heavy cruiser is Y80, 5 years before the Frigate. FireSoul was thinking about adding ships from the early years into his sfb mod but there are weapons issues to over come and also timeline issues. They are neat ships, my one problem with the early years module is that the Texas class has armour but none of the other early years ships have it. Then there's the fact that the destroyer is single engined. I don't like that idea, I prefer to have the Saladin Class launched around the same time as the Constitution class as being the first single engined starship. For an early destroyer I've alway envisioned
the Marshall Class desgined by Rick Sternbach or perhaps fasa's Marklin Class Destroyer of which only a top view exists.
You know your Bonaventure Class Model with some retexturing could do as an early CA. The Skys the Limit as they say.
Regarding the Coronado Warp engines they were alway PB47 mod 3 the carrier hull was laid down in 2256 launched in 2257and comissioned in 2258
years from Ships of the Star Starfleet. the Constitution class was laid down in 2214 launched in 2217 and commissioned in 2218
Have fun
Post by: Atrahasis on September 09, 2003, 02:32:37 am
Post by: Atrahasis on September 09, 2003, 02:38:32 am
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 09, 2003, 04:45:03 am
I've scanned a couple of pages from the module it should answer your questions or create more.
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 09, 2003, 04:48:45 am
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Time for some personal rambling: The existence of the SFB Old Light Cruiser does not make sense anymore. It was supposed to have been a leftover from the days when they didn't have Warp Drive yet, but since the new TV show has ships with warp drive 150 years before TOS then obvioulsy the Old Light Cruiser idea is blown out of the water. However, we should keep it around and sub in either the Coventry or the Surya model for it, two designs which are at least light cruiser designs from Ships of the Starfleet.
I'd suggest comming up with a precruser design of the Coventry or The Surya by using the Detroyat class as your starting point the primary hull looks older than either the Coventry or Surya
Take care and be well
Post by: ActiveX on September 09, 2003, 05:53:17 am
I'd like to think we humans would have more style than that...hehe...I mean the Space Shuttle has more style than the Daedalus...
Post by: Atrahasis on September 10, 2003, 12:48:54 am
It looks like the Province-class Old Light Cruiser is feasible in the timeline after all because "sublight" in SFB terms means not able to maneuver at warp speeds in combat, not that it doesn't have warp drive at all, and so presumably the modern term "warp drive" means ships that can maneuver at warp speeds in combat. Ships could still travel between stars using powerful impulse engines that warped space. This explanation solves a lot of problems, especially for the Bonaventure galactic survey cruiser which I plan to release, one need not assign a 21st century date for its launch anymore because if it was the "first starship with warp drive" as Scotty says in that episode then it need not be older than the Province-class which is still being used. The Bonnie looks like a modern sister ship to the Connie anyways. The Bonnie and Connie, I like that.
By the way Bernard, have you ever come across an SSD for the Bonnie?
Thanks to everyone else for their input as well.
Post by: Reverend on September 10, 2003, 01:20:50 am
Post by: Atrahasis on September 10, 2003, 01:42:51 am
What do people use for the OCL slot? The Daedalus? It may look like a beach ball, but in my opinion it looks a hell of a lot better than the Province from SFB. Moreover, it's canon.
Post by: jimkirk on September 10, 2003, 02:52:24 am
I'm glad you have returned
Post by: Rogue on September 10, 2003, 05:28:09 am
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What do people use for the OCL slot? The Daedalus? It may look like a beach ball, but in my opinion it looks a hell of a lot better than the Province from SFB. Moreover, it's canon.
Well. I use the... <cough> Kentucky <cough> because... well... Isn't that supposed to be it? And it is for only one specification... Soooo, it aint all that bad.
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 10, 2003, 05:40:59 am
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I just did some very interesting reading on the Early Years of SFB!
It looks like the Province-class Old Light Cruiser is feasible in the timeline after all because "sublight" in SFB terms means not able to maneuver at warp speeds in combat, not that it doesn't have warp drive at all, and so presumably the modern term "warp drive" means ships that can maneuver at warp speeds in combat. Ships could still travel between stars using powerful impulse engines that warped space. This explanation solves a lot of problems, especially for the Bonaventure galactic survey cruiser which I plan to release, one need not assign a 21st century date for its launch anymore because if it was the "first starship with warp drive" as Scotty says in that episode then it need not be older than the Province-class which is still being used. The Bonnie looks like a modern sister ship to the Connie anyways. The Bonnie and Connie, I like that.
By the way Bernard, have you ever come across an SSD for the Bonnie?
Thanks to everyone else for their input as well.
Hi Atra:
Nothing official ADB is only Licensed to use Franz Joseph's material. I've checked a few fan sites but haven't found anything yet.
Post by: E_Look on September 10, 2003, 12:43:39 pm
Wouldn't the Daedalus be OCA? But hey, I'm no SFBer. And, the Daedalus never looked ugly to me because of its being one of the stages in formation of present day TOS CA. Besides, I believe the Soviets once launched a rocket with a module on top that looked like a big beach ball. Anyhow, we'll never know as Teller has just passed away and he could have told us, as he was such a Soviet technology watcher.
Post by: Marauth on September 10, 2003, 02:06:15 pm
Post by: Atrahasis on September 10, 2003, 09:09:11 pm
Post by: Atrahasis on September 10, 2003, 09:10:43 pm
Post by: E_Look on September 10, 2003, 10:46:20 pm
Post by: Atrahasis on September 10, 2003, 10:49:26 pm
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Again, why CL? Wouldn't the Baton Rouge (what I voted for, anyway) be the CA of its day?
Actually, in the literature it says that the Baton Rouge worked alongside the Connies, and some Batons were upgraded to Connies. Ships of the Starfleet calls it simply a "cruiser", not a heavy cruiser.
Post by: E_Look on September 10, 2003, 11:05:45 pm
I had always had the impression that they were a generation older (thus way predated) Constitutions!
Although, I did once in a Star Trek comic book, I forget if it was Marvel or DC's, but Capt. Kirk did transfer onto the Big E from the U.S.S. Republic, a Baton Rouge looking kind of ship, when Captain Pike was stepping down as the Enterprise's captain. But I wonder if a comic book can be considered canon!
Post by: wanderer on September 10, 2003, 11:16:24 pm
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Again, why CL? Wouldn't the Baton Rouge (what I voted for, anyway) be the CA of its day?
Actually, in the literature it says that the Baton Rouge worked alongside the Connies, and some Batons were upgraded to Connies. Ships of the Starfleet calls it simply a "cruiser", not a heavy cruiser.
Interestingly enough, in the SFB "Historical" Captain's Ship Registry (an Order of Battle type of thing), there is a list for the CA Heavy Cruisers (the Connies) and another list of CA Cruisers (note not Heavy Cruisers) which is noted as "Conversions of previous classes". The name and hull #'s of these vessels were;
1017 Constellation
1018 Goeben
1019 Eximer
1020 Oriskany
1371 Republic
1372 Reshadije
1373 Ramilles
There are a few similarities such as this between SFB and SOTSF, it's obvious that Guenther took inspiration from SFB, which isn't a bad thing (too bad he never got his website up and going). I love the SOTSF stuff, I don't have Vol I anymore (darnit!) but I have Vol. II and "Starship Design".
And I voted for the Texas class. Sure, it's ugly at first, but it has grown on me over time, heheh. Again, to refer to SFB "history", the Texas class CL was converted to a number of different varients during the General War, including minesweepers, hospital ships, drone ships, light carriers, and escorts for the larger carriers.
Anywhos...
Post by: Atrahasis on September 11, 2003, 12:02:58 am
Post by: DarkMatrix on September 11, 2003, 03:14:31 am
you got any more views of this one man?
DM(darkdrone)
Post by: Bernard Guignard on September 11, 2003, 04:35:58 am
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you got any more views of this one man?
DM(darkdrone)
Hi Darkdrone
Officially only 2 views exist of this ship a top view and the perspective that you see here. Unofficially a 3 view orthographic drawing has bee created for this using some sort of paint program. The web site is the following
Vintage Starship Company
I just went to his site and he's starting up a second site and it contains size comparison models and is divided
up by major person or book title IE a franz joseph section, a starfleet chronology section. I hope this helps you out. Looking forward to seeing some interesting work come out of this