Print Page - Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Falaris on December 05, 2003, 01:38:17 pm

1: The New Planet need not be close, for travel to be easy. If depends how you want to travel - cheap or often.

2: The problem I imagine is the atmosphere. There's a LOT of it needed to make a planet habitable, more than I suspect we are likely to find in the asteroid belt. The asteroid belt is theorized to be the remains of a planet or moon, and most of the atmosphere was lost, it does not remain there , if I remember my astrophysics correctly.

3: The other problem I imagine is the self-replicating robots themselves. Such Von Neuman - machines are an interesting concept, especially considering nano-technology, but wether it is workable.. well, it's a challenge, but we're talking the future, and it would be folly to say it will not be possible.

However, unlimited industrial capacity does not mean unlimited power, and such a robot horde would nearly need both.

I would ocnsider a space lens, to gather sunlight for heating the planet, rather than nudging it to a near - earth orbit. This could also, during construction, be used both for heating the planet core and an energy source.

Another problem, which I take less seriously, is that usually mentioned in science fiction - for some reason, such machines are almost invariably described as extremely dangerous and destroying their creators - the Berserks, for instance, or the machines in the terminator movies - or for that matter, the Matrix.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: TalonClaw on December 05, 2003, 03:08:29 pm

Yeah they might suddenly decide why build a new planet when they can just rid the earth of it's harmful infestation.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: 762 on December 05, 2003, 04:01:35 pm

Quote:

Another problem, which I take less seriously, is that usually mentioned in science fiction - for some reason, such machines are almost invariably described as extremely dangerous and destroying their creators - the Berserks, for instance, or the machines in the terminator movies - or for that matter, the Matrix.

You forgot the Cylons.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: JMM on December 05, 2003, 04:44:34 pm

The glowing red eye travelling back and forth, the silver metallic bodies, arms at port arms, and the age old saying "by your command."

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:11:17 pm

Irridium is a common as dust bunnies in the asteroid belt. The Yucatan impact spread a layer of irridium dust all over the world and that was one (1/2 mile wide???) asteroid. Well your right about one thing. Humans would be there in small numbers with the robots to monitor the work, most likely. So they would need shielding for thier base. But the melting would not be nuclear. It would be big solar ovens.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:17:04 pm

Nothing in all likelihood. Planetary alignments where all the planetary mass in the solar system is lined up do nothing to the Earth. The proposed planet's mass is already there in the belt. Nothing happens. Some of those bodies are already quite large Ceres is 1/4 the size of the Earth (perhaps just the moon?)

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: JMM on December 05, 2003, 07:26:45 pm

Storm is looking for a project so his robotics company stock shoots for the moon, hehehehehehehe...

Just kidding around my friend.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:30:47 pm

The planet would reside in the former asteroid belt not near earth. The Asteroid belt might not provide enough gas for the atmosphere but the Oort cloud and Kuiper belt certainly would. There is evidence that the oceans water originally came from cometary impacts over time. Likely the gravitational forces present during the formation of the original solar system destroyed the planet. That or impacts. Impacts could have also drove the atmosphere off. After that the solar wind would have driven it out of the area. An earth sized planet would hold an atmosphere. Mars is on the edge of being able to retain enough gas to be livable and it is 1/4 the size. the atmospheres gas content could be tuned to retain heat to compensate for the distance. CO2 water vapor and methane could be increased quite a bit without altering our ability to breath un aided. These would trap more heat. Mars does reach 80 degrees (briefly) in it's short summer and it would be further out than the planet I proposed.

The robots would each be idiot savants; brilliant at thier specialisation but otherwise dumber than a box of rocks. They would additionally have built in limitations including a termination clause upon completion of thier task. They would not be capable of altering thier basic programming and they would definitely not be sentient. Why go to the trouble of making them sentient when an automaton would perform better?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:36:46 pm

I have not looked at the economics beyond the need for replicating robots to achieve it. However; now that you mention it, the profit potential for such an industry would be enormous. Spin offs, minerals, technology...

Not mentioning real estate; I'd assumed the planet would be free for colonization. However at that future time some sort of framework for international cooperation might be necessary to avoid conflict over territorial disputes.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:40:48 pm

I don't believe the mass would disturb the earth. I worry about altering it's orbit to ensure th orbit is stable where it is at The asteroid belt would describe the orbit I want it to stay at.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: JMM on December 05, 2003, 07:43:09 pm

I will agree with you on that point Storm, we have no idea what kind of minerals are out there. I'd be laughing my arse off if someone hit a payload of gold and made it about the same value as silver. Of course the corp. cartel would hoarde it and not allow it to happen, just as the DeBeers cartel only releases a fraction of the available diamonds to keep the prices sky high. I imagine there is a lot to see and do out there, but unless we get reborn to learn another of life's lessons, I will not be around to see it.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:43:38 pm

You realise a Dyson sphere is mor ambitious and far more dangerous than what I'm suggesting. It is also far more vast than a planet. Dyson's sphere was ultimately a manufactured sphere encapsulating a star or a planet.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:48:06 pm

It would take a big "meteor" to affect the orbit of an earth sized planet; likely one large enough to shatter it. The impactors that killed off the dinosaurs did not alter the Earths own orbit. My planet would be now where near earth. By Bode's law it would be half way between the Earth and Mars.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:51:47 pm

Not as large a budget as it appears. The work done by self replicating drones. The infrastructure is what would drive the costs. It shouldn't be that much more expensive than the international space station or a colony on the moon or mars.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 07:54:47 pm

Actually we do know quite a bit. Irridium iron platinum, diamonds, gold, silver, titanium a host of other things have been detected over the years by spectral analysis and other means. Mining is one of the proposed reasons to go there.

EDIT: and not all the asteroids would get used to make planets. coincidentally, they would need to be disposed of to make the planet safe.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 11:18:30 pm

Regarding the dyson sphere; I don't think ther is enough material in the solar system to build one with any degree of structural integrity. Not even if we completely demolished all of the terrestrial planets and the asteroid belts. It would be too thin and flimsy even if we did manage to completely eclose the sun in a shell. How thick could it be? and how would we have any material left over to construct the cities that are the point of a dyson sphere?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 06, 2003, 09:58:23 am

Damn it! The total mass of the asteroid belt is 1/30 th that of the earth? How can that be? It appears that the kuiper belt and Oort cloud have from 40 times the earth mass to more than the mass of jupiter. Looks like the robotic drones will have to travel a lot further and overcome a lot more momentum to get them where they need to be. It will also take a lot more of them due to thier icy composition. It could still be done. ...Delays. Delays.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 06, 2003, 07:47:44 pm

That does not sound right if Ceres is .25 the mass of the moon and the moon is even 10% the size of the earth then ceres is 2.5 percent of earth's mass. There are other large asteroids and countless small ones and even more dust. How in the heck can those figures be compatible. But thats what a google search on the mass of the asteroid belt turned up. Getting non ice mass from the Oort cloud and Kuiper belt would be extremely lengthy and tedious. can some one confirm the collective asteroid mass?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: WillWeasel on December 06, 2003, 09:21:47 pm

I had heard that Ceres is a slight bit less then 1/2 of the total mass of the Belt. Here are some links were thats seems to be backed up by some "facts" This was just aquick search.

http://aa.springer.de/papers/8334002/2300729/sc3.htm

and as a quick reference the mass of earth is 6 x 10^24 kg roughly.

So ya the mass of the Belt seems to be to low to make even a mars like world.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 06, 2003, 09:24:49 pm

Darn it! Well there are fortunately other sources of material such as the kuiper and Oort material that can serve. Unfortunately, they are not close at hand and require a lot more work to process.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 06, 2003, 09:30:38 pm

Hey wait a minute! IIRC theory says the asteroid belt is the result of a failed terrestrial sized world trying to form at the beginning of the solar system. If so surely the rest of it didn't turn to dust and blow away. And it would blow away if it was dust sized due to the solar wind and photon pressure. But where did it go? Perhaps there is more of it there than we can see. Heck, they are still looking for planets and brown dwarfs just outside pluto orbit. It seems to me if they think we couldn't see a star sized mass outside pluto then how can they predict the mass available in construction rubble in a similar area?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 07, 2003, 10:36:05 am

Well, anyone have any ideas on the overall rock/metal mass component of the Oort cloud and Kuiper belt? The total mass (including ice and hydrocarbons) is from 40X terran mass to many times jupiters mass. Any ideas on reclaiming the stuff if it is just ice locked dust? I'm kind of holding a conversation with myself here. It's very amusing, I can assure you.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 07, 2003, 01:23:24 pm

Nobody really knows how much mass is there. Estimates range from 0.5 of Earth to 10xEarth.

As for the asteroid belt, my gut tells me that there is a reason why no planet formed there in the first place (Jupiter, Sun) and any attempt to put one there, just wouldn't work.

To answer an earlier question, if there WERE a planet there, it's gravity wouldn't effect anything at all noticably. A good approximation of the Solar System is the Sun + Jupiter. All the other mass is negligible unless you get REAL close (hard to do by accident).

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 07, 2003, 01:39:40 pm

I think mars being closer to jupiter argues against that. The proto-planet was demolished or it's formation was disrupted by something that happened early in the formation process. perhaps by strike, perhaps by gravity perturbations from the Gas giants. In other star systems the gas giants are further in towards thier stars. of all the examples we know of only a few have Gas Giants in the hinterlands. Actually only one I've read about. The gas giants likely migrated out rather than formed where they are at. If so the planet may have been destroyed as a result of that. There is no reason to believe the forces responsible are still at play.

Now because the estimated total mass is far greater than your figure you are talking about rocky or metalic mass only, not ice, right?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 07, 2003, 02:07:45 pm

Quote:

I think mars being closer to jupiter argues against that.

Closer than what? Mars is at 1.5 AU, Jupiter is at 5.2 AU. Jupiter's mass is about 10^30g, the Sun is about 10^33g. (by comparison, the Earth is only about 10^27g). The asteroid belt is between Mars and Jupiter, in the 3-4AU range (I don't recall exactly).

Quote:

Now because the estimated total mass is far greater than your figure you are talking about rocky or metalic mass only, not ice, right?

I was quoting the estimated mass of the Oort cloud.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 07, 2003, 02:13:30 pm

The first few pages on the oort cloud I found said it was between 10 to 40 times earths mass and even up to several times jupiters. The imprecision is due to the fact that the Oort cloud has never been directly observed. it is mainly hypothesized by Jan Oort based on observations of long period comets. they appear to come from all directions equally. I thougt your lower figure might represent newer research or modeling since it matched the lower end of the figures I read.

Edit: Wierd. I read that a problem with sending things to maars was asteroids. But you are right the main belt is trans-mars orbit. Still I'm not sure jupiters gravity would destroy a planet. After all jupiter has moons of astonishingly large as well as small size. As does Saturn. Triton and titan are respectable in size.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 07, 2003, 02:16:38 pm

Quote:

The gas giants likely migrated out rather than formed where they are at.

The only way they could migrate out is by transferring angular momentum to orbital momentum (like the Moon did). Since their masses are only in the 10^28 range, and they currently aren't tidal locked as far as I know, I doubt it.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 07, 2003, 02:19:16 pm

Quote:

The asteroids are between earth and mars.

You are mistaken. The asteroid belt is between Mars and Jupiter.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 07, 2003, 02:21:57 pm

Quote:

I thougt your lower figure might represent newer research or modeling since it matched the lower end of the figures I read.

No, it's probably an old estimate by now. This is what it was back when I was an undergrad. Still, those upper estimates seem a bit high...

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 07, 2003, 02:26:17 pm

Yes I was in error. Odd.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Falaris on December 07, 2003, 03:41:31 pm

I think one theory is that the closer to the sun, the more dense materials are; thus you have primarily 'hard' planets closest to the sun - mercury, venus, earth, mars - and beyond is the gas giants, jupiter, saturn, neptune.... and that overgrown asteroid, Pluto.

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation. Jupiter's moons are not a good place to be.. possibly, one of the worst in the solar system.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 07, 2003, 06:53:24 pm

Quote:

Still I'm not sure jupiters gravity would destroy a planet. After all jupiter has moons of astonishingly large as well as small size. As does Saturn. Triton and titan are respectable in size.

I don't think Jupiter alone could do the trick, but Jupiter + The Sun at that point may be destructive, or at the very least, inhibit planet formation.

Quote:

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation. Jupiter's moons are not a good place to be.. possibly, one of the worst in the solar system.

On the contrary, I'd guess that one of the reasons we are here at all is because of Jupiter. The big guy has been busy ejecting asteroids and comets from the solar system for the past 6 or so billion years.

I'm not sure how much fusion or fission is going on in Jupiter. Stars don't burn from uncontrolled fission chain reactions. If they did, then they would blow themselves apart pretty quickly. Stars balance fusion explosions with gravitational implosion. Jupiter lacks the mass to properly implode.

As for the radiation, I know that Jupiter has some pretty nasty synchrotron radiation, but in the radio part of the spectrum. I also know that there is a problem with spacecraft interacting with the high energy electrons that cause the synchrotron radiation, in that they are excellent destroyers of electronics. In addition, Jupiter has a nifty x-ray beacon at its poles. Last I heard, it was being caused by Io's volcanoes tossing junk into Jupiter orbit that was getting ionized by its killer magnetosphere. I don't know of any significant beta radiation comming from the big guy.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 07, 2003, 07:06:44 pm

I just remembered something, there is a phenomena known as Kirkwood Gaps, which occurs with orbital periods commensurate with Jupiter's at ratios 1/2, 1/3 etc... Asteroids with these periods have their eccentricity increased by perturbations with Jupiter continuously until they are ultimately ejected. Several such gaps occur in the Asteroid belt, where few or no asteroids are found.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 07, 2003, 09:33:32 pm

Falaris, so far 99 percent of all extra solar planets (well over 100 now) are gas giants larger than jupiter and so far all extra solar planets save one are in what we concider the orbital zone of terrestrial planets. IE; very close in to the sun.

5

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 07, 2003, 09:37:03 pm

I'm familiar with them. Suppose I used ceres as a seed for my planet and left it in place while adding mass little by little? Evidently, it is not in a kirkwood gap. Incidently, there are such gaps in the rings of the gas giants too. They are caused more by collision and absorbtion than gravity flux of some sort.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 12:26:05 am

Orbital mechanics question: Could a second planet occupy the same orbit as another if the velocity were the same and the position were diametrically opposed in the ellipse. one at aphellion and one at perihellion as an example. what would the tidal pull do to the relatively near by planet?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Tremok on December 08, 2003, 01:03:28 am

Quote:

I think one theory is that the closer to the sun, the more dense materials are; thus you have primarily 'hard' planets closest to the sun - mercury, venus, earth, mars - and beyond is the gas giants, jupiter, saturn, neptune.... and that overgrown asteroid, Pluto.

Pluto is in the Kuiper belt isn't it? Seems that nature already did what Stormbringer is proposing to do with machines. His inspiration, perhaps?

Quote:

As an aside, Jupiter is not a friendly neighbour. It has some aspects of a miniature sun; some fission/fusion is going on inside it creating massive radiation.

I read that Jupiter, is in effect, an un-born star. If it had 50 times the mass it does now it would not be un-born.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Tremok on December 08, 2003, 01:12:50 am

Quote:

Falaris, so far 99 percent of all extra solar planets (well over 100 now) are gas giants larger than jupiter and so far all extra solar planets save one are in what we concider the orbital zone of terrestrial planets. IE; very close in to the sun.

Four solid inner planets, one with a huge moon, four outer gas gaints, one that seems to be spiraling towards its moon, two asteroids belts, one that has an asteriod the size of Texas, the other has a planetoid named Pluto, the Oort comet cloud, and perhaps even a Planet X that is circling the sun in some obscene orbit.

It seems to me that our system is somewhat odd.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 05:06:27 am

Yes but that may be only because it is much harder to detect extra solar terrestrial sized planets. We have found one exception with two "maybes."

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 05:07:55 am

Well to be fair, in our solar system alone it's been done at least nine times in a major way.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 09:36:11 am

Here is another example of a Gas Giant formed near the star Vega and migrating out ward. This is the second declared starsystem similar to our own in planetary configuration Vis; gas giants:

Unmasking Vega: Solar System Like Ours Emerges
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 06:03 am ET
08 December 2003

One of the closest and brightest stars in the sky appears to harbor a very familiar looking solar system, a young echo of our own complete with similar planets and an outer belt of colliding comets.

Vega is easily visible in the evening without a telescope. It is young, just 350 million years old compared to our Sun, which is 4.6 billion years old.

Vega is surrounded by an interesting dusty ring, which astronomers found in the early 1980s. It was the first discovery of a disk of material around another star. In the Carl Sagan's 1985 book "Contact," later a movie, Vega is the fictional source of radio transmissions.

Ever since, researchers have seen more and more signatures of planet formation in the Vega dust ring. They peer through the dust now with high-powered, high-altitude telescopes. It is like unwrapping Christmas presents to reveal the mysteries inside.

New computer modeling suggest the star is indeed spawning a solar system much like our own. Time, however, is not on Vega's side.

A team of astronomers at the UK's Royal Observatory say clumps of dust in the disk-like ring can best be explained by a Neptune-sized planet orbiting Vega at about twice the distance Neptune is from our Sun. That configuration, the researchers say, allows plenty of room for rocky planets like Earth to develop closer to the star.

The work was led by Mark Wyatt at the observatory's Astronomy Technology Center.

Neptune's twin

The modeling suggests the Neptune-like planet formed much closer to Vega than its current position. As it moved outward over some 56 million years, it swept comet-like objects with it, creating the clumpy disk seen today. A similar scenario is thought to have unfolded in our own solar system. A separate recent study showed how the migration of Neptune might be responsible for a population of icy objects, called the Kuiper Belt, beyond Neptune.

Wyatt told SPACE.com that the comets around Vega, according to this scenario, collide and create the dust that's been observed.

The dust does not represent a conventional "protoplanetary disk" that is left over when a star is born, he said. In fact, the absence of dust nearer to Vega -- like a hole in a donut -- suggests other planets already formed there. Vega's dusty ring, on the outskirts of its gravitational influence, is a second-generation phenomenon, a product of planet and comet evolution rather than the seeds of their birth.

The similarity of the apparent evolution of the outer regions of Vega's environment and that around our Sun "suggests that the two systems may have formed and evolved in a similar way, and so Vega may also have planets inside the orbit of the Neptune-like planet," Wyatt said.

A Jupiter-sized planet could lurk there, in an orbit similar to Jupiter, he said.

Wyatt's team did not analyze whether an Earth-like planet might exist. However, he said, "based on this model, nothing would prevent such a planet forming."

Creative techniques might allow astronomers to make an image of the Neptune-sized planet, if it exists, Wyatt said. But the task, involving blocking out the overpowering light of Vega, won't be easy.

Planets abound

Vega is not the only young star thought to have a developing planetary system. Fomalhaut, also nearby and the 17th brightest star in our sky, appears to have a Saturn-sized planet and also looks like an early version of our solar system.

And more than 100 planets have been found around more mature stars. Many of these systems are configured differently, however, with a huge Jupiter-mass planet circling very close to the star. No close-in terrestrial planets could survive such a setup.

A handful of mature systems do look like they could support habitable planets. One, with a Jupiter-sized planet in a Jupiter-like orbit, was found this year. A similar system discovered in 2002 was shown, mathematically, to be capable of supporting an Earth-like planet.

The new model for Vega is explained in the Dec. 1 issue the Astrophysical Journal. It is based on observations by the SCUBA camera on the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope in Hawaii. The dust was observed in the submillimeter region of the electromagnetic spectrum, at the border between far-infrared and short-wavelength radio emissions.

Running out of time

There is one significant difference between Vega's system and the one we live in: Unlike the Sun, which has at least a billion years to go, and probably more, before it begins to swell dangerously, Vega won't last long.

"Because it is some three times more massive than the Sun, [Vega] has just 650 million years of main sequence lifetime left," Wyatt said. "It will never be truly Sunlike."

This time limit makes it less likely that life will ever develop around Vega.

At about 25 light-years distance, Vega is the fifth brightest star in Earth's night sky. It is 58 times more luminous than the Sun. Anyone can find it with the help of a simple star chart. It is high in the West as darkness falls and sets in the Northwest around 10 p.m. at mid-northern latitudes.

This article is part of SPACE.com's weekly Mystery Monday series.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 09:47:54 am

This suggests that though planetary systems similar to our own are rarer than those with gas giants hogging the life supporting regions of star systems they are relatively common. They would make up about three percent of our sample of known planetary systems if you count the third one I was talking about earlier. That percentage may rise. For example; if the other star system mentioned in the article is not the other one I had heard of then there are four in our sample. It also said that there may be two generations of planetary formation in the lives of certain stars; even short lived ones like vega. This is getting better and better. The next generation of telescopes is being designed to be able to detect terrestrial sized planets. I cannot wait.

Edit: fourth system confirmed: Vega, Fouhault, Carceri and Sol all have terrestrials in the life zone with gas giants in the boondocks. This means the sol like systems are at least four percent of the known sample.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 08, 2003, 04:40:26 pm

My gut tells me that you would have more problems than that. If I had to guess, I'd say that there is likely a very good reason why a planet hasn't ever formed there.

As for the planets in opposite gee's in the same orbit, it would depend on the mass of the planets, the mass of the thing holding them in orbit, and the radius of the orbit. I doubt two Earth sized things at our current orbit would give any problems. You can figure it out (the limits) for yourself using Newton, if you assume a heavy center (like a Star). As long as the gravitational acceleration between the two planets is far less than the orbital centripital acceleration (assumed to be balanced by gravity from the star) of either, you are probably okay. If you want to consider a smaller mass than a star at the center, you have a many-body problem, and have to use a perturbation theory to estimate your answer (a graduate level physics mechanics problem)

.

As for planets leaving the star, the only way it can occur is by the transfer of rotational motion to orbital motion. This is done by the bodies tugging on imperfections of each other (like mountains or slushy cores), up to the point where they become tidally locked. Then they pretty much stay where they are, as far as I know. The moon is currently tidally locked to the Earth, but we are not yet to the moon, so the moon is still escaping. Eventually it should stop (unless the Chinese succeed in speeding up the Earth's rotation with their river damming.. pretty kewl

). This puts a lower and upper limit on how far a gas giant can move. From the data available, it looks like our outer planets haven't moved all that much. In fact, Jupiter is rotating at a stupendous rate... so much so, it is bulging at the center. I doubt it could rotate much faster without breaking apart!

One problem I have with extrasolar planets, is the method they use to determine the distance from the star. They suppose an average orbital inclination of 45 degrees relative to us. Obviously, if what you are judging mass on is wobble/wavelength shift, assuming a smaller angle will increase the relative wobble, making the body appear more massive, and vice versa.

It's maybe not a bad assumption to make for an average, but I'm not yet comfortable with the size and variety of the sample set.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 07:22:46 pm

I read ringworld so long ago (I was achild) that I cannot remember specifics something about a torus of gas around an unusual star? and a low G environment. and life forms that flew as a result.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on December 08, 2003, 07:37:18 pm

Quote:

I read ringworld so long ago (I was achild) that I cannot remember specifics something about a torus of gas around an unusual star? and a low G environment. and life forms that flew as a result.

Right author, wrong book(s).

The Integral Trees and its sequel The Smoke Ring

Niven has a flair for creating unusual worlds.

In these novels there was a torus of breathable air around a neutron star. The torus had been colonized by the crew of a sublight Starship under compulsion by the ships AI.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 11:11:54 pm

Lots of looks but only a relatively few contributors. Surely someone has additional data or ideas. I know it is a mega engineering challenge on a scale never before attempted by earthlings but done with turing machines it should be possible and economically feasible. The necessity to go to the Oort cloud cind of throws a monkey wrench into the solar oven idea but there are alternatives.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sirgod on December 08, 2003, 11:42:45 pm

Quote:

Lots of looks but only a relatively few contributors. Surely someone has additional data or ideas. I know it is a mega engineering challenge on a scale never before attempted by earthlings but done with turing machines it should be possible and economically feasible. The necessity to go to the Oort cloud cind of throws a monkey wrench into the solar oven idea but there are alternatives.

I hope you understand, that It takes me along time to research these Things Being Dyslexic Bro. But I'm doing my best to keep up.

However, I'm trying to come up with the Information to make this work "But ya keep changing the rules"

hehe, Maybe theres away to make your radar training Pay off, by being able to scan the Various variables of the asteroids. IE. Density, Volume, Chemical composition.

Chemical Comp. that's a start, how about your Self Replicating Robots start off, with a Chemical Processing? One of my first jobs Was with allied Chemical, and we would Take core samples of Catalytic Converters, In order to find out Just how much Platinum we used.

this wa done with a simple burn, and spike test.

Maybe the Robots could do that , and come back with a mass result.

besides, it doesn't matter how large, But how massive, and It doesn't matter how massive, but how fast can we spin this Puppy.

Just a few ideas...

Stephen

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 11:51:37 pm

It's possible (you probably know more about it than I) but isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 08, 2003, 11:56:47 pm

There are remote means of determining composition given sufficient bulk in the target that are non destructive. I just wish i had data now. It's hard to speculate based on too little data. I don't know if the requisite rocky matter is even out there.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sirgod on December 09, 2003, 12:03:35 am

Quote:

It's possible (you probably know more about it than I) but isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?

T obe honest, It might tae me a while to answer that. I love math, But I'd have to look at alot of figures to even come close to an answer.

However, I do have a benifit That might be possible towards the earth, and that envolves, Using artificial masses, Likethe one you described, In order to change The gravitational/orbit of the planet, for Ozon layer Purposes.

What would be the effect of additional solar Planetary Gravity on the Ozone? Can we Micro Manage a planet to change an atmosphere, And If so, Can we use this for possible Coloniztion of mars, While at the same time , establishing a Base for the outer rings of our Solar system?

talk about needing Mass figures from Former threads, I think your onto something Jerry.

Stephen

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 09, 2003, 12:14:42 am

Gravity effects on molecular gases are generally weaker than solar wind. Solar wind is what abraded mars atmosphere until most of the O2 was gone, leaving more of the heavier and unbreathable combinations. Ozone is a molecule of three oxygen atoms bound together. ozone affects UV penetration. We are concerned with the infrared of heat range of the spectrum. The gases that affect temperature range on a planet are things like carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor and perhaps a few others. Don't get me wrong ozone is important but ozone will form naturally provided the atmosphere has enough normal oxygen and water. Lightning, other electrostatic forces and radiation will convert it. Our ozone layer will replenish itself within 50 years if left alone by man.

Because of Mars' weak gravity, the solar pressure and impacts were enough to force the lighter molecules out of Mars' atmosphere. That is why we need more planetary mass than Mars.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sirgod on December 09, 2003, 12:21:02 am

Quote:

Gravity effects on molecular gases are generally weaker than solar wind. Solar wind is what abraded mars atmosphere until most of the O2 was gone, leaving more of the heavier and unbreathable combinations. Ozone is a molecule of three oxygen atoms bound together. ozone affects UV penetration. We are concerned with the infrared of heat range of the spectrum. The gases that affect temperature range on a planet are things like carbon dioxide, methane, water vapor and perhaps a few others. Don't get me wrong ozone is important but ozone will form naturally provided the atmosphere has enough normal oxygen and water. Lightning, other electrostatic forces and radiation will convert it. Our ozone layer will replenish itself within 50 years if left alone by man.

Because of Mars' weak gravity, the solar pressure and impacts were enough to force the lighter molecules out of Mars' atmosphere. That is why we need more planetary mass than Mars.

Way out Idea Here Jerry, But what If we increased the mass of jupitor, By spinning It faster? Would this allow for an atmosphere On Mars, and how can we do this using Asteroidsal Collisions, Or by concentrating a combined asteroidal effect on the juptier plain? I believe this was your train of thought when you asked, about a Pelihydon Plane Of two equal Masses, in the same orbit?

stephen

Title: Re: continuing on constructing an atmosphere
Post by: Stormbringer on December 09, 2003, 12:24:55 am

By bombarding the planet with cometary material we can add water and oxygen and to an extent nitrogen from hydrocarbons in abundant supply. If we processed the stuff in solar ovens and centrifuges we could customize the gas ratios into any desired combination. I favor one as close to earth as possible with additional greenhouse gases to compensate for distance from the sun as it is likely it would be in an orbit further out than earth. The green house gases would raise the temperature after the distance lowered it. They would have to balance out.

As to distance: even with Mars' weak atmosphere and distance from the sun the record summer temperature recorded is about 80 degrees farenheit. So the temperature problem is manageable.

Title: Re: continuing on constructing an atmosphere
Post by: Sirgod on December 09, 2003, 12:31:51 am

sorry Storm, I've got to Get some sleep. let's take this up tomorrow Morning If we can.

Stephen

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 09, 2003, 12:42:44 am

Well jupiter would likely explode if it spun any faster. It is already deformed radically from it's very fast spin. Spinning would not increase it's mass (you are thinking of inertia). And even if it did it would not affect the variables we want to manipulate. In fact increasing jupiters mass, if it was possible, might ignite nuclear fusion and create a short lived star.

The question about tidal forces was in the event Integerspin is correct and a planet cannot form in the asteroid zone due to jupiter's gravity interactions. I was considering parking the planet in an established orbit like that of Mars or even the Earth. Baring tidal problems if they were at the same speed in the orbit on opposite sides of the ellipse they would never collide. I was asking about tidal and gravitic induced tectonic damage, earthquakes, volcanoes; that sort of thing.

I do not know enough to know if that is a safe idea. If it was and enough material could be found we could build multiple Earth-like planets and solve all sorts of humanities problems for millenia to come.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 09, 2003, 08:01:52 am

Quote:

isn't it also possible that those unfavorable conditions abated as the solar system matured but the dust was blown out by the solar wind and the critical mass or density is not there to restart the planetary formation process naturally by gravitic accretion. An artificial push might restart it?

Sure. Near as I can remember, there is something like the mass of 2/3 of the moon in the asteroid belt currently. I'd look it up though, because I don't really remember.

Quote:

Spinning would not increase it's mass (you are thinking of inertia).

Actually it does, a teeny weeny bit.

Quote:

I was asking about tidal and gravitic induced tectonic damage, earthquakes, volcanoes; that sort of thing.

Gravity is weak enough that you needn't worry. If you think about it, we periodically come closer to Mars and Venus than we ever could to a 'trojan planet'.

My take on the thing is that in the beginning, we're going to be too busy not dying out there to be worried much about 'contaminating' the solar system (much like the New World in the 1500's). By the time we start to worry about preserving pristine extra-terrestrial environments, we'll probably have a McDonalds on Mimas.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 09, 2003, 09:26:47 am

Is that determined by direct observation or by measuring tidal perturbations in planet and asteroid movement? It seems low. The amount of dust that was blown away would be many many times what is left if that is the case. But even if it is correct the kuiper belt has some mass that is not ice or hydrocarbon. Beyond that is the Oort cloud and the escaped dust mentioned earlier.

If it weren't for the outcry that would ensue I'd just drop the load of asteroids on Mars to increase it's mass and thus gravity. The proper atmosphere could then be held. The oxygen and nitrogen would not escape. Water vapor would be held the temperature would increase. Planetary ice fields would melt. The hydrocycle would heat up. Greenhouse effect would become self reinforcing. Weather would develop including thunderstorms with lightning and ozone would naturally develop. Unfortunately that would be stymied for centuries as the ethics of the situation were endlessly debated.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 09, 2003, 12:34:36 pm

I threw "mass asteroid belt" into google and got some hits. This from Minnesota State,

http://www.mankato.msus.edu/emuseum/information/solarsystem/asteroid_belt.html

Quote:

Asteroids are small, rocky, irregular bodies orbiting the sun. The first asteroid was discovered by Giuseppe Piazzi in 1801. He originally thought he had found a comet, but found that its orbit more closely matched those of planets rather than comets. He named the object Ceres. Ceres is the largest of all known asteroids. It is 933 km in diameter and contains about 25% of the mass of all the asteroids. The asteroids together have a mass less than that of the Moon.

The majority of the known asteroids exist between Mars and Jupiter. This area contains over 4,000 numbered bodies. This area is unique because the asteroids did not form a planet. Jupiter's early formation may have affected this area by either sweeping up or ejecting many of the bodies.

Asteroids within the asteroid belt, or Main Belt asteroids are divided into subgroups named after the main asteroid of the subgroup. Asteroids not within the Main Belt are either Near Earth Asteroids or Trojans, which are asteroids near Jupiter

I have no idea how the mass was determined.

It is true that the molecules in the atmosphere form a Maxwell distribution, and molecules that end up in the high speed tail will escape. However, even for a planet the size of Mars, the time for the average molecule to escape would probably be low enough that if you put an Earth-sized atmosphere around Mars, it would probably keep it for several hundred million years (assuming it was also kept abnormally hot... for us). You can probably figure it out yourself. Get the mass of Mars, figure out what the escape velocity is, pick a mean average temperature, and apply a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. Assume that we can live with the atmosphese depleting to 75% of whatever we start with (maybe choose sea level on Earth as a base), and solve for t. I'd be surprised if it wasn't several hundred million years.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 09, 2003, 12:48:09 pm

My understanding is that molecules at the very outer edge of the atmosphere are dislodged from the weak gravity holding them there by everything from brownian collisions, cosmic ray collisions, solar wind, photon pressure, meteor and other macro-body impacts and even thermal motion. Mars gravity, at a mere 33% of earth's allows far more of this loss than higher gravity worlds such as Earth. During the close study of mars evidence that Mar's atmosphere was much thicker and had far more water nitrogen and oxygen than it does now. and most of that atmosphere was lost to space. Some ended up bound in the rock and ice. For example there is a lot of oxygen in the form of rust or oxide compounds which give a red tint to the planet. Mars current atmospheric pressure is nearly a vacuum and what little is there is unbreathable even if the pressure was greater.

This data is why I assume a larger Mass would be needed to ensure Mars could retain a breathable and radiation shielding atmosphere. That supposition may be false but more mass would also increase the gravity which would make humans more at home and allow for returning to Earth for people who had been there for some time or were even born there.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 09, 2003, 01:00:31 pm

For the hell of it, I did the calculation. I got about ~5000 m/s for the Mars escape velocity, and assumed the atmosphere was exclusively oxygen. From 1 atm to 0.75 atm, at a mean temp of 15C, t=26 million years.

I thought this was kinda low, but then remembered that our atmosphere is constantly being replenished. Still... 26 million years isn't too bad.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 09, 2003, 01:13:24 pm

No it's not bad at all. My sin is conflating brief periods of time on a cosmic scale with brier periods of time in human scales.[IIRC that is about the amount of time the planetary scientist said it took for it to lose the old atmosphere minus major impact ejections ( evidence of which includes martian origined meteorite found on earth)]

I still need to bomb the planet with comets though. It is the only way to get a suitable atmosphere in acceptable human time scales. The other methods are far to slow. Genetically engineered microbes to free the bound oxygen from the soil, Lichens to absorb heat and warm the polar ice and permafrost would take 100s of thousands of years if not millions of years. Most of earths early oxygen supply cam from photo-plankton in the oceans which Mars lacks. They could do it faster but still to slow for waiting colonists. And with the vacuum like conditions and sublimation the supporting layers would not form (ozone and similar layers.) And I would still like the gravity to be as near Earth's as possible. So I might need to rain asteroid bits on the planet as well.

Perhaps I am just violent.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: IntgrSpin on December 09, 2003, 01:17:59 pm

Maybe we should send all our Ford Expiditions up there.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 09, 2003, 01:20:03 pm

All SUVs.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 10, 2003, 03:53:56 pm

Another bad thing about mars is there is no magnetosphere and the cosmic ray dose rate would be twice what is is in the ISS. Shielding would be necessary unless The atmosphere created would stop enough of it. The added mass would likely cause the break up of the crust and restart both tectonic migration and convection celles in the core to mantel region. This would create a magnetosphere.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 10, 2003, 04:34:28 pm

Erm... won't significantly increasing the mass of Mars (to increase the gravity) also change the orbit of the planet?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 10, 2003, 04:49:03 pm

It might. gravitic equations, force equations, orbital mechanics all have mass components. However by carefully controlling the vector that the new mass is moved along as it is being applied to the base mass it should be possible to keep the orbit constant by altering the orbital velocity at the same time. do you see what I am talking about or do I need to elaborate to clarify the idea? As an aside a minor alteration in orbital elipse size would not present to large a problem. we don't want the planet carooming off into space or colliding with another planet.

As an aside there is a panned but generally accurate rule of thumb for orbital distance known as Bode's law that accurately predicts the location of planets in the solar system. It may be that planets are compelled somehow to assume these orbits or be cast out. There is some unkown but natural phenomenon at work behind Bode's correlation.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 10, 2003, 05:13:32 pm

Storm, if you're talking about slamming these masses into the planet at high enough speeds to significantly affect the orbital velocity, you're talking about doing very bad things to the planet itself. The trick would be in not ending up with a second asteroid belt.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 10, 2003, 05:24:23 pm

No, the asteroids would be processed down to manageable non planet busting size set on a path to collide with a specific region of the planet and imparted with a proper incremental velocity. We do want some stress to the planet but not eough to shatter it.Tectonic activity on Mars has all but ceased. so has convection in the interior. That is why there is no magnetosphere. you could alter the planets vector with B B's if you used enough of them. By striking from different sides at different points along the orbit we can slow the orbit enough to maintain its orbital path.If the orbit is not in danger then the rest of the asteroid mass can be added as micrometeorites. there will be thousands of little turing machines carrying out that work. Any orbit shifting needed will be handled further out by specialized machines which can do the proper analysis.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 10, 2003, 05:28:39 pm

Why am I reminded of the most recent incarnation of the movie version of The Time Machine, and what happened to the moon?

Sounds great as long as it works like you plan it to.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 10, 2003, 05:46:14 pm

Of course, Newton worked out the equations that explain how planets orbits can be determined. Before anything like this would be attempted it would be modeled to death. Each gram could be modeled for what effects it would have. Tons of space dust land on the earth each day. We have yet to spiral into the sun or zoom off into space. We have been struck by impactors large enough to kill off almost 90 percent of all lifeforms at least three times. There are craters so huge that we could not detect them except from space. The planet is still here in a stable orbit. I'm not even sure that the mass change would significantly affect the orbit of the planet unless we designed the impacts to have that effect. If that is the case the equations would immediately tell us of any such danger and modeling certainly would. They might tell us to just dump the asteroid dust evenly on the surface. I might do the math this weekend. If so, I'll let you know. I'd feel better if one of our engineer or scientist friends did it though even if the equations are straight forward.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 10, 2003, 06:11:41 pm

Quote:

Of course, Newton worked out the equations that explain how planets orbits can be determined. Before anything like this would be attempted it would be modeled to death. Each gram could be modeled for what effects it would have. Tons of space dust land on the earth each day. We have yet to spiral into the sun or zoom off into space. We have been struck by impactors large enough to kill off almost 90 percent of all lifeforms at least three times. There are craters so huge that we could not detect them except from space. The planet is still here in a stable orbit.

All true, Storm - but you are talking about adding enough mass to increase the planet's gravity by 150%. That's gonna make a difference.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 10, 2003, 06:19:12 pm

I will work the equations for a mars sized planet at mars orbit and an earth sized planet in the same orbit then I'll *try* a vector equation based on mars being struck by various masses, velocities and directions. My bet is the size would have to be huge for it to do anything from a single impact whether that something is destroying the planet or flinging it away. Too bad I cannot post scientific formula symbols here.

Title: Terrestrial Planets Are Common According To Computer Sims
Post by: Stormbringer on December 11, 2003, 05:05:04 pm

This is relevant because it has to do with orbital mechanics for various mass terrestrial planets. Also because it says terrestrial planets are common.

Earth-Like Planets Common, Computer Simulation Suggests
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 02:51 pm ET
11 December 2003

A new computer model designed to explore the range of possibilities for planet formation around other stars had no trouble coming up with worlds similar to Earth.

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Kepler Mission to Find Earth-Like Planets Gets Green Light

The simulations generated planets in similar orbits, planets with and without water, and a range of other virtual places that resemble Earth and the other inner, rocky planets.

The effort was designed to determine whether the four inner planets in our solar system, called terrestrials, represent a typical or extreme evolutionary scenario compared to what might develop around a Sun-like star with slightly different dynamics, explained said Sean Raymond, a University of Washington doctoral student in astronomy.

"We found there's a much wider possible range of masses and water content on terrestrial planets," Raymond said in a telephone interview.

"You can have planets that are half the size of Earth and are very dry, like Mars, or you can have planets like Earth, or you can have planets three times bigger than Earth, with perhaps 10 times more water," Raymond said.

Raymond worked with Thomas Quinn, an associate astronomy professor at the university, and Jonathan Lunine, a professor of planetary science and physics at the University of Arizona. Their results, announced today, will be published in the journal Icarus.

Behind the simulations

Astronomers have found more than 100 planets around other stars. All are at least as massive as Saturn and not the sorts of places where intelligent life is likely to flourish. But theorists are using what they've seen as a springboard for imagining what might lurk undiscovered within those systems. A handful are, mathematically, capable of supporting Earth-mass planets in Earth-like orbits.

The new model considered what sorts of rocky planets might form around a star with a known giant planet. The simulations represent the extremes of what is possible, the researchers say, and so it's not known which of them might represent reality.

There is just one giant planet in each of 44 simulations. The model makes an assumption that a giant planet forms quickly, before terrestrials. (Theorists have not determined whether or not that is how things happened in our solar system.) Gravity-based formulas are put in place and time is allowed to evolve. Virtual small rocks collide and stick and eventually form terrestrial planets.

In some cases the initial planet contains the mass of Jupiter, in others it's weightier. Its orbit is like Jupiter's one time, much more elliptical the next.

The validity of the model is suggested by the fact that when the virtual Jupiter takes on characteristics similar to the real Jupiter, a set of inner planets similar to those in our solar system tends to develop.

However, Raymond said, very minor adjustments to the starting conditions fueled wildly different outcomes.

One simulation generated just one terrestrial planet, a whopper up to four times as massive as Earth with up to half again as much water. In another model, five small terrestrials were born, but all were significantly smaller than Earth.

At least one terrestrial planet of some sort was spawned by each scenario.

Key to life: Water

One goal of the study was to determine whether habitable planets might be a common development around other stars. Scientists agree that water is the primary key to life as we know it. Water on the virtual worlds turned out to be dependent on the orbit of the outer, giant planet.

Non-circular routes, called eccentric orbits, are bad news.

"The more eccentric giant planet orbits result in drier terrestrial planets," Raymond said. "Conversely, more circular giant planet orbits mean wetter terrestrial planets."

Here's why: A giant planet in a circular orbit tends to send water-laden asteroids inward, where some of them strike the terrestrial planets and deliver the water. Giant planets orbiting eccentrically tend to kick asteroids outward.

Earth is thought to have been dry when it formed. Water, theorists think, was delivered later by asteroids or comets, which formed farther from the Sun where water could be retained, Raymond said.

In the case of our solar system, Jupiter's orbit is slightly elliptical. The researchers said this middle-of-the-road, real-world scenario could explain why Earth is not a total waterworld nor a complete desert.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: WaterTiger on December 11, 2003, 05:05:42 pm

Hmmmmm .... Interesting.

Would you be interested in the space/time continuim and zero gravity?

Zero what?

Uggggg. My brain is starting to hurt on the left side, just like it did when teacher tried to cram algebra in it. Hell, I can barely balance my checkbook.

WaterTiger

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 11, 2003, 05:10:44 pm

We've discussed ZPE before. Either here or at battleclinic OT. Fascinating but hard to harness, due to limitations of the casimir effect to tap it.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: WaterTiger on December 11, 2003, 05:15:33 pm

Quote:

casimir effect

Ahhhh, stop. My head is hurting.

Is this like the "Dopler Shift"?

I'm gonna be sorry I asked, I know ...

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 11, 2003, 05:31:08 pm

in the context of ZPE the casmir effect is a way of removing the "virtual" from the phrase virtual particles and utilizing the particles (or their motion) as energy. The casimir effect comes into play when two plates spheres or other charged bodies are in extremely close proximity. The effect is even more pronounced when the charge bodies move away from each other. The more rapidy the more energy can be snagged. Unfortunately at all but the most ludicrous speeds the energy captured from the vacuum by the casimir effect is vanishingly small. Perhaps by creating an array of molecule sized casimir plates on a chip one could create a casimir based ZPE generator that could be used to power something. That is how it stands now. There may yet be a way to get useful amounts of power from the ZPE because theoretically the energy available is infinite.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 29, 2003, 08:08:05 pm

Back from the dead bump!

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 29, 2003, 11:12:38 pm

To recap: I think there is enough debris and dust bunnies laying about the solar system to make another earth sized planet or modify mars to the mass of earth. I think there is enough cometary material to create an atmosphere comparable to earth's in density and gas make up. I think that with self replicating robotic miners the material could be gathered into one place and set into orbit in th life zone of the sun. I think this could be done economically (relatively speaking.) I think such a project might unite much of the world the way a threat from space would but without all the death and destruction. I think that such a goal is worthy noble and doable.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 02, 2004, 07:00:13 pm

in light of recent planetary science missions data: BUMP!

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 02, 2004, 09:09:43 pm

Only Three Votes? You're a bunch of space wussies!

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 22, 2004, 12:37:33 am

Heh. heh. I thought so.

planetary material

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: nexa1 on March 22, 2004, 03:48:20 am

I kind of missed a little. I do like the idea of having 2 planets in the same orbit opposite of eachother. You do realize that this concentrated mass would also alter the path of some planets near by. Not to mention changing the gravitational constant of the solar system.

Tell me again how do we get the new planet to rotate?
And how do we get it to revolve around the sun. Using the roadrunner thrust move?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 22, 2004, 07:20:09 am

The gravity effect would likely be negligible for most of the orbits I'd choose -as the solar life zone is quite large and the climate can be controlled in a number of ways to compensate for distance from the sun. Greenhouse gases, thier opposite, particulate suspensions, reflectivity and so forth. Tthough Im not sure about gravity effects for for the trojan orbit idea. As for orbit that is what such masses do naturally due to gravity. It is a question of imparting the proper velocity to make a stable orbit rather than one which would crash into the sun. The opposite possibility; a planet achieving solar escape velocity and heading the other way is unlikely.There are precisely acurate equations to determine this starting from Newton's classical equations. Both the the orbital velocity and rotation could be built in as the planet's mass is built up so that massive planetary engines would be unnecessary. The proper rotation is adjusted by carefully playing billiards with the incoming matter used to form it. Each hit could be controlled to additively alter the rotation and orbit. Likely both robotic processing of raw material on the planets locus and the bombardment method would need to be used to acomplish this.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Maxillius on March 22, 2004, 09:59:55 pm

why don't we just sent our moon a,d Mars's moons to Mars? I mean, break them all up into tiny bits first, but our moon is more than enough mass to make Mars equal to Earth.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 22, 2004, 10:07:04 pm

Not really. The moon is a small fraction of the mass needed. Deimeos and Phobos are microscopic in comparison to the moon. Put it this way the earth would take about 20(?) perhaps 200 moons to equal it's volume. And pullingthe moon away from earth would cause earthquakes volcanism, gigantic tidal surges and waves floods, perhaps cause weather disruptions and women to have PMS for 28 days straight.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: nexa1 on March 22, 2004, 10:20:14 pm

Hey... instead of building a new planet... why don't we just move Titan??? Then we could plant a bunch of trees and voila...

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 22, 2004, 10:48:56 pm

Titan is a good choice for a terrformable world but without doing much the same to it it would never be earth like. You could build earth like habitats but that would not increase the gravity. It would never be a shirt sleeve environment either. My idea was to manufacture a twin to earth in climate, gravity, and breathable gases. actually the world that could be terraformed into an earthlike world without bombarding it with asteroids and comets would be venus. It is close to earth's gravity and the atmosphere could be cleansed of the sulfuric acid, etc. The upper atmosphere could be seeded with gases that reflect inrared radiation or gigantic mirrors could be orbited around it to regulate the temperature. Movingthe planet would not be necessary. The problem as I see it is manufacturing a rapid means of terraforming the atmosphere. Catalytic elements or geneticly engineered microbes, or plants could conceivably do it. But I have no idea how long the process would take.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: ActiveX on March 22, 2004, 11:10:46 pm

Why not spark Jupitor?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 22, 2004, 11:17:39 pm

Estimates of how much mass jupiter would need for stellar ignition have increased from =~jupiter mass to 5,10 or even more times it's present mass. At one time I thought jupiter was on the verge of being a star, it turns out either I got the wrong impression or science's opinion on the subject has been revised.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: ActiveX on March 23, 2004, 08:49:13 am

It worked in 2010 I think it was...

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 23, 2004, 03:40:06 pm

2001: A Space Oddesy; at the very end of it.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: nexa1 on March 24, 2004, 01:43:40 am

We don't have monoliths anyway.

I did come across this interesting read tho if anyone is interested about our own solar system.
solar system

Saturn's moon Titan

Here is what I think, and why I think Titan would be better than Venus.Although Venus would be ideal, I don't think that you could move Venus without disrupting the delicate balance of the other inner planets, IE: the Earth, Mercury and Mars. But you could destroy IO, take all or parts of IO, use the asteroid belt and make a planet big enough for what you are wanting. Plus you already have a heated core and atmosphere with Titan.
Besides, I am not sure if I understand the whole planetary engine dealie. You can't just stick some thrusters on a planet and move it. The planet still rotates, so unless you stop the planetary rotation (very bad) your thrusters are going to move the planet all over the place.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: ActiveX on March 24, 2004, 08:24:56 am

Pull it with gravity...

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 24, 2004, 12:09:22 pm

In venus's case no moving is necessary. It's orbit is not the reason it is a hell hole. It's atmosphere is. With the right combination of gases it could be forced to have a climate similar to earths tropical zones. Venus gravity equals earth's more or less. It has an active tectonic system and thus a magnetosphere that protects from radiation. It is nearby. The solar radiation would make earth type plants welcome with little tinkering. The other planets and moons would require a lot more work.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 24, 2004, 12:28:02 pm

planetary engines are possible but way beyond our technology and economy. But if we ignored those inconvenient facts; consider that we could stop the rotation, but with carfully timed thrusts such a fictional engine could apply force in a single direction even if the rotation were not stopped.

Should we have the means to stop the rotation it would only be bad if we did it to a living planet like earth. We wouldn't care if it caused catastrophies on a dead world without an ecosystem or population. The havok would be gone before we inhabited the world in it's new position.

However, your Titan Idea would work if one is postulating the type of tinkering I envisioned anyway. It is one of the options I was considering. I emphsized others to get a conversation started without muddying the issue more than it already was. There are so many options all of which hypothetically are doable and (given certain assumptions are accepted) reasonable and logically consistent. But since not many people have picked up the gauntlet I threw down I see no reason why we cannot discuss Titan if you like.

The jovian and saturnian mega engineering are good options minus the new sun thing, unless we go so far as to combine all the gas giants (and likely not even then.) Still there might be other options available to reach stellar ignition. And Titan is a wonderful world that SF writers have targeted for colonization for a longtime with and without terraforming.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 24, 2004, 12:50:35 pm

Speaking of Venus: I see no reason not to terraform it. After all, we are "Vene-forming Earth right now.

Ha! I kill me! (I just had to say it 'cos it struck me as funny. We now return you to your regularly scheduled political bickering.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: nexa1 on March 24, 2004, 02:00:03 pm

You are right, Titan would be too much of an engineering feat...so... I woudn't mind if we did turn Venus into a habital planet. But I still think that we would have to move it. Here is why, lke you were saying about plant's needing to be "tweeked" because of the radiation, so would people and animals. Another thing is that even if we did fix the atmosphere, it would still get pretty warm there. I think I read somewhere like 140-170 deg in sun to 75-90 on the dark side. But that might be fixed with a modified planetary shield, perhaps. But here is my main reason for moving Venus. If we were to fo through the effort of making a new planet, I would want it to have rings and a couple moons. Which I don't think would be possible being closer to the sun. So I say just move it. Now ActiveX was on the right track with gravity. just not how he was thinking. We could form a "warp bubble" if you will around all or part of Venus and change it's mass/gravity constant making it easier to move. Then we could use a series of timed thrusts to push it or we could use magnetism to push/pull the planet. (kind of reminds me of an EP from TNG) what do you think?
I don't like the idea of igniting Jupiter or even making a second star for our solar system. I just see too many bad things happening from that.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on March 24, 2004, 05:15:03 pm

With venus, it wasn't radiation so much as light and soil that the plants did not evolve for handling. Plants have a hard time being grown in zones on earth that they did not evolve in let alone another planet. But as for radiation as we commonly think of it ( Gamma, X ray, Alpha, beta, cosmic and so forth) , there isn't significanly any difference from earth unless I am terribly misinformed.

While I don't necessarily think such (warp or gravity modification )) tech is impossible. I was extrapolating from known technologies forthis discussion. Warp may or may not be discovered. If not then the whole Idea if it depends on warp would have to be abandoned. Now warp and gravity mod and other fringe sciences are fascinating and if you want to discuss it I'd be willing to take it up in another thread if you like.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on May 28, 2004, 02:53:25 pm

Rise! Rise! Rise from the crypt! It's alive! It's aliiiiiiive!

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on May 28, 2004, 03:03:58 pm

Hmmmm. what has transpired since the last time this topic was discussed? Several planetoids which could supply some mass to the project have been found including some inside earth's orbit.These could jsut be the tip of the iceberg of unknown planetoids. I think this lays to rests the criticism that there is not enough mass to do what I propose. Microbes that definitely could survive on Mars have been found. These also are at about the same size as the inclusions in the Mars meteor that was claimed to be possible fossils of microbes from Mars. Remember the studies critics leveled the charge thatthey were too small because no known bacteria on earth were that size. These could be engineered into teraforming machines that self replicate. Telescopes are being built that can detect earth sized planets around alien suns. The president announced his mars and beyond initiative but failed to create funding for it and instead created chaos in planned missions.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on May 29, 2004, 11:28:36 am

bump

Title: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 01:34:33 am

This may have to be moved to the H&S forum because it may be controversial with some types of people. What if we send a fleet of self replicating robotic tugs, solar collector oven satellites and ancilliary equipment to the asteroid belt. They would manuever asteroids into proximity of one another then weld or melt them together until enough mass was accumulated to cause gravity to finish the work of constructing a terrestrial core approximately the same size as the earth's core. Then carbonaceous or nonmetalic asteroids could be processed to form a mantle and finally a crust. The protoplanet could be constructed in such a way that it's solar orbit could be stable and it's spin rate could be controlled as it is built up so that it could be near the earths. Either the original fleet working in the asteroid belt or another dispatched to the ort and kuiper belt could use the materials there to pelt the dry planet with water and gases to become an atmosphere. The gas mixture could be altered so that the distance from the sun is mitigated by greenhouse gases. The limited but self replicating fleet could enable this be done in an amazingly short time (relatively speaking.) This would have several benefits.Firstly it would get rid of most of the larger earth endangering debris in the solar system. Secondly it would in due time give the burgeoning population somewhere nearby to go to. Thirdly it would develop a knowledge base for terraforming and environmental disaster control. It would spare the existing planets from the environmentalist controversy likely to ensue if someone decides to terraform Mars, Venus, Titan or other worlds. (this would destroy any chances of finding either life or evidence of past life on those worlds.) The only thing I'm not sure in regards to constructing a planet are in regard to creating the dynamo needed to create a molten core necessary for a magnetosphere.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 05, 2003, 02:02:46 am

Quote:

It would spare the existing planets from the environmentalist controversy likely to ensue if someone decides to terraform Mars, Venus, Titan or other worlds. (this would destroy any chances of finding either life or evidence of past life on those worlds.)

What makes you think it would stop the militant environmentalists? There might be endangered microbes living on some of the asteroids you're planning to use to make that planet, you know.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 02:20:48 am

I would hope the difference would be the number of protestors. A few hundred loonies verses tens of thousands of them. There may be a valid point if we were about to terraform Mars, Venus, Europa (not really a good candidate for terraforming) where there might actually be microbial life or fossils. I wouldn't let it stop me but on those worlds at least they would have a point of sorts.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 06:43:20 am

OK, I'll keep the ball rolling: I wonder how much mass is available there (in the asteroid belt?) I suspect there is much more than needed to equal Earth's mass. If so The gravity of the planet could be equal or slightly more than Earth's. There might even be enough to construct two planets and set them at the antipodes of an eliptical orbit so one is always opposite the other relative to the sun. If so, what are the gravity ramifications? I'd assume that such a dual orbit would be stable because of all the other planetary juxtapositions have not resulted in disaster. Of course the velocities would have to be the same for each point on the elipse; IOW when planet A reaches the point on the elipse that planet B occupied at X velocity, it should have the same velocity at that point that planet B had there.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: 762 on December 05, 2003, 08:22:35 am

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Scott Allen Abfalter on December 05, 2003, 09:30:57 am

Forget that plan. Instead let's create a 2nd astroid belt and blow the snots out of Venus!

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: hobbesmaster on December 05, 2003, 09:46:17 am

Lets just build a ring world.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Scott Allen Abfalter on December 05, 2003, 09:53:28 am

Quote:

Lets just build a ring world.

Really, we've just about screwed this one up anyways.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 09:55:53 am

What is the value of a planet that can be colonized versus the relatively easily obtained mineral wealth of the asteroids if they were mined instead? Since I propose a fleet of self replicating robots programed to reproduce until they have sufficient numbers to perform each of thier tasks, what would that cost assuming there are different castes; miners, smelters, fabricators, tugs, communicators, sensors, and so forth working like an ant colony? Using such a replication scheme how long would it take to accomplish each phase of the operations?

The robots would be specialists; highly sophisticated at doing on thing or set of things but incapable of much else and programed to deactivate upon completion of thier overall task. No rise of the machine type scenarios there.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: 762 on December 05, 2003, 09:59:20 am

I think Bush is already planning to build a Dyson Sphere.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 10:03:11 am

I suppose you parrots would rather discuss politics instead? Squawk!

Now, glossed over in all this is the danger to the earth in the event we cannot control the orbit and velocity of the new planet as it's forming. How would we do that? (I *think* I know, but I could be wrong) How difficult would it be? What level of precision is needed? Anyone know anything about orbital mechanics?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: 762 on December 05, 2003, 10:32:22 am

To alter the orbit of an Earth-sized planet would require a force of gigaton proportions. Probably not attainable with current thermonuclear weapons technology. If it were it would be something like a 5 or 6 stage thermonuclear device of massive proportions.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: NJAntman on December 05, 2003, 10:32:44 am

Go with something easier as desribed in David Brin's novel "Heart of the Comet". Throw a short range colony ship onto the surface of a passing comet, or push a colony ship out to a large body in the belts and mine out its' innards for the space and resources to build a colony inside. Then just ride the sucker out to the belts to jump too more viable bodies or go further to the outer system and nudge it out of the system from there.

Don't have to be a Gorn to live in a rock ship.

P.S. Sorry if I've hijacked the rock thread.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 11:02:45 am

I rather figured one or a combination of the following: A sizable seed asteroind in a stable orbit already. And or carfull timing of the additional material as the planet is built up from that seed would impart incremental momentum and vector changes until the desired orbit and spin is achieved. The equations for orbit should yied the proper values. The planet would not be stationary and then accelerated to proper speed and turned in the proper direction.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: JMM on December 05, 2003, 11:05:05 am

Good idea, but I would be scared to death of a planet circling the sun in the same range as Earth, what if IT gets impacted by a meteor instead of us and throws it off course, maybe on a collision course with Earth? I prefer the money and resources go into space travel, sooner or later we will have to leave this system anyways...

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 11:08:00 am

The thing is rather than take a centuries long trip to another star which might not have a suitable world upon arrival, I propose building a suitable world mere days or weeks away. The replicating robot scheme should significantly shorten the time required to do so from centuries or millenia to a manageably short amount of time. Further it is my aim for the project to recreate as closely as possible earth like conditions of atmosphere, magnetosphere, gravity, daylight period and temperature range or climate.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sirgod on December 05, 2003, 11:17:25 am

I've been thinking about this since I first read the Proposal this morning. My only concern would be, do we have the technology to create Self replicating Robots, even with a Caste system in mind, Can we do this? or would we have to simply make A replecator Class, that would be programmed to make the others?

I guess It could be set up like an Assembly line type thing.

the other thing I thought about was the post you made the other day about Shielding, and the use of hydrogen in a polymere. This might also be very usefull in Creating the new planet. To be honest, I've always liked the idea of minning the asteroids , and If I ever won the lottery, I'd try and make a company to do just this.

Stephen

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 05, 2003, 11:20:38 am

From a practical standpoint, it makes more sense than trying to travel to another star with our current technology.

From a risk/reward standpoint, the risk is currently unacceptable.

We as a species are (at present) stuck in this planetary system, and rely on a single planet in it for survival. If we screw that up via some unforeseen consequence, we are hosed.

Want to terraform Mars? Go to it. Find a way to fix Venus atmosphere so a colony could be placed there? Have a blast.

Want to muck with the orbital mechanics of the only star system we have? Let's wait until we have another option if something goes wrong.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 11:23:38 am

The factory caste or a portion thereof would handle the replication. It would not be an individual thing (might lead to complications). Yes automated production is advanced enough that such a thing could be done fairly easily (IMO). Please elaborate on the polymer idea?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: JMM on December 05, 2003, 11:28:15 am

It's not that it's not a good idea Storm, it's just that sooner or later we have to leave. As it stands right now, we could build a starship and send people out long term, all the while developing newer technology. As Sethan pointed out, you are talking an astronomical budget either way, I prefer the way that allows some of our people to leave just in case. Even a starship at sub light would take the bankroll of many industrialized nations to build, the ISS is a joke compared to the money and resources required for such a vessel.

Of course nobody in leadership positions really cares right now, they know they will be long gone before then, so they think and spend only for today, not for future generations...

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Stormbringer on December 05, 2003, 11:30:07 am

Bear in mind this would be half way between Mars and Earth. careful planning should eliminate much of the danger. In the event of an error producing possible earth crossers another asteroid could be accelerated to bump the errant planetoid off that course. Smaller errors could be compensated for by pelting the thing with rocks from the other side. And such errors should not occur as each hit could be modelled in advance and risk assessment could be constantly applied.

Hopefully by the time that (exodus) is necessary we will have solved FTL or similar short cuts. This would buy time for that discovery. Perhaps tripling the livable space in the solar system.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sirgod on December 05, 2003, 11:31:54 am

RE: the polymer idea.

I was thinking of not only would the Shielding be of course Benificial, But Might be used to make hollow tubes /Lifeline to connect the Asteroids to gether. If we used a couple of hollow Asteroids, connected together Like a giant Hamster cage, we wouldn't have to worry about Starting a Nuclear Furnace, And might be able to Control The planet better.

Besides that the effect of having your propossed shield would of course help Prevent the radiation out there.

I also seem to recall, Using an Iridium based Ceramic in the use of Superconducters, I don't know if the research ever panned out, But If so, and If there is a supply of Iridium out there, then It would be the perfect melding of those robots.

just a few random thoughts,

Stephen

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Tremok on December 05, 2003, 11:50:13 am

Quote:

I think Bush is already planning to build a Dyson Sphere.

Dyson Sphere is what they're calling it now? I thought they were calling it the "Death Star." Hmm. I suppose it wasn't PC enough.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 05, 2003, 12:21:06 pm

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Corbomite on December 05, 2003, 12:44:14 pm

I hate to rain on your parade, but do you know what introducing a large gravitational body to the balance we now enjoy would probably do to life on this planet?

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: Sethan on December 05, 2003, 12:51:22 pm

Quote:

I hate to rain on your parade, but do you know what introducing a large gravitational body to the balance we now enjoy would probably do to life on this planet?

Probably nothing, given the distance involved - but your point is one of the possibilities I was trying to get across earlier.

'Probably' is not good enough, given that we have no 'Plan B' if something goes badly wrong.

Title: Re: Modest space project idea: Lets make a planet.
Post by: SSCF Hooch on December 05, 2003, 01:26:38 pm