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Off Topic => Ten Forward => Topic started by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 08:04:05 pm

Title: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 08:04:05 pm
Quote:

A trio of research teams independently probing the Martian atmosphere for signs of methane have found it, a combined discovery that opens the door for a host of theories as to how the smelly gas got there.

 
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: ActiveX on March 29, 2004, 08:05:40 pm
Aliens can fart, at least if that is how they communicate we got Bob to be a translator...
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: SL-Punisher on March 29, 2004, 08:26:19 pm
Damn you I was gonna post a fart joke!
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 08:34:03 pm
Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: ferretlxix on March 29, 2004, 08:40:13 pm
That's no suprise!!
They found us Hydrans quite a while ago

 
   
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 08:50:51 pm
Quote:

Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.  



The quote below rules out several of your sources.  

Quote:

Since methane has a relatively short lifetime on Mars for atmospheric gases, about 300 years or so, scientists believe there must be some process at work to keep replenishing its concentration in the atmosphere.



 
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:01:20 pm
The larger the molecule the longer it will stay in the atmosphere barring photo-chemistry and radiation effects. Lighter molecules can escape the atmosphere in a number of ways but the loss of oxygen, for example took millions of years.

Still  with radiation and photchemistry that would leave only vulcanism or ongoing processes. Are they suggesting a biological process as a serious contender?
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 09:13:41 pm
Quote:

The larger the molecule the longer it will stay in the atmosphere barring photo-chemistry and radiation effects. Lighter molecules can escape the atmosphere in a number of ways but the loss of oxygen, for example took millions of years.

Still  with radiation and photchemistry that would leave only vulcanism or ongoing processes. Are they suggesting a biological process as a serious contender?  




There seems to be two schools of thought.  

Quote:

"I think the first possibility, volcanism, is probably best," Chicarro said. "Volcanism has not been ruled out as a modern phenomena on Mars."

Nothing so explosive as an eruption is needed to expel the gas. It could possibly seep out through gentle, consistent hydrothermal activity, Chicarro said.



Quote:

Krasnopolosky, on the other hand, said while he believes that Martian microbes are the most likely methane culprits, he cannot definitely rule out other factors.



The below is my opinion only:

I had been under (the possibly outdated) impression that Mars was not Vulcanically active.   Given the short life span of atmospheric methane, a major comet impact can be ruled out, but not relatively minor debris from a near miss.  Ancient oceans should also be ignored.

Then of course there is "other" or "unknown" processes.    
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:23:02 pm
not trying to "rain" on your parade but recent observations of the Earth's upper atmosphere seemed to show a nearly constant bombardment by millions of microcomets. One rogue scientist has long proposed this as the source of Earth's oceans. While scientists don't necessarily buy thattheory wholesale they are giving ground on his interpretation of the phenomenon of microcomet bombardment.
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: SL-Punisher on March 29, 2004, 09:24:59 pm
Another thing that seems to agree with you storm is that from what I've read Mars doesn't have much of an electromagnetic field, which would indicate a solid core and little geologic activity. Right?
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:33:20 pm
I thinks so but we don'y know how long ago the dynamo died. There could either be residual magma or resultant magma from geologically recent impacts. and who knows how long out gassing would go on even if there was no real vulcanism. a huge deposit of radioactive material could cause vulcanism in a local area. I would be a vein of it large enough to have critical mass and be a slow motion nuclear explosion lasting eons. Gravitational effects might do it. (Boy, it's fun being an armchair planetary theorist )
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 29, 2004, 09:43:36 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.  



The quote below rules out several of your sources.  

Quote:

Since methane has a relatively short lifetime on Mars for atmospheric gases, about 300 years or so, scientists believe there must be some process at work to keep replenishing its concentration in the atmosphere.



   



:::forgets to breath:::  
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 09:51:42 pm
Quote:

not trying to "rain" on your parade but recent observations of the Earth's upper atmosphere seemed to show a nearly constant bombardment by millions of microcomets. One rogue scientist has long proposed this as the source of Earth's oceans. While scientists don't necessarily buy thattheory wholesale they are giving ground on his interpretation of the phenomenon of microcomet bombardment.  



I have heard of it, but what I heard made it appear very unlikely.   Has there been any independent confirmation of the existance of the "micro-comets"?  Last I heard there was not.  Mars due to its much thinner atmosphere (and the moon with none of course) should be showing clear indications of surface impacts from them, indications that I have not heard of.  

Myself I still don't think that there is any clear indicator of life past or present on Mars.  At best some things that suggest the possibilty only.    
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 10:06:34 pm
There was independent back up for it happening here. [The micro-comet bombardment] not necessarily the cometary origin of earth's water] But that does not mean that it happens to mars. Anyhoo    I was just throwing up possibilities that might come out in debate.
Title: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 08:04:05 pm
Quote:

A trio of research teams independently probing the Martian atmosphere for signs of methane have found it, a combined discovery that opens the door for a host of theories as to how the smelly gas got there.

 
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: ActiveX on March 29, 2004, 08:05:40 pm
Aliens can fart, at least if that is how they communicate we got Bob to be a translator...
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: SL-Punisher on March 29, 2004, 08:26:19 pm
Damn you I was gonna post a fart joke!
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 08:34:03 pm
Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: ferretlxix on March 29, 2004, 08:40:13 pm
That's no suprise!!
They found us Hydrans quite a while ago

 
   
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 08:50:51 pm
Quote:

Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.  



The quote below rules out several of your sources.  

Quote:

Since methane has a relatively short lifetime on Mars for atmospheric gases, about 300 years or so, scientists believe there must be some process at work to keep replenishing its concentration in the atmosphere.



 
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:01:20 pm
The larger the molecule the longer it will stay in the atmosphere barring photo-chemistry and radiation effects. Lighter molecules can escape the atmosphere in a number of ways but the loss of oxygen, for example took millions of years.

Still  with radiation and photchemistry that would leave only vulcanism or ongoing processes. Are they suggesting a biological process as a serious contender?
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 09:13:41 pm
Quote:

The larger the molecule the longer it will stay in the atmosphere barring photo-chemistry and radiation effects. Lighter molecules can escape the atmosphere in a number of ways but the loss of oxygen, for example took millions of years.

Still  with radiation and photchemistry that would leave only vulcanism or ongoing processes. Are they suggesting a biological process as a serious contender?  




There seems to be two schools of thought.  

Quote:

"I think the first possibility, volcanism, is probably best," Chicarro said. "Volcanism has not been ruled out as a modern phenomena on Mars."

Nothing so explosive as an eruption is needed to expel the gas. It could possibly seep out through gentle, consistent hydrothermal activity, Chicarro said.



Quote:

Krasnopolosky, on the other hand, said while he believes that Martian microbes are the most likely methane culprits, he cannot definitely rule out other factors.



The below is my opinion only:

I had been under (the possibly outdated) impression that Mars was not Vulcanically active.   Given the short life span of atmospheric methane, a major comet impact can be ruled out, but not relatively minor debris from a near miss.  Ancient oceans should also be ignored.

Then of course there is "other" or "unknown" processes.    
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:23:02 pm
not trying to "rain" on your parade but recent observations of the Earth's upper atmosphere seemed to show a nearly constant bombardment by millions of microcomets. One rogue scientist has long proposed this as the source of Earth's oceans. While scientists don't necessarily buy thattheory wholesale they are giving ground on his interpretation of the phenomenon of microcomet bombardment.
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: SL-Punisher on March 29, 2004, 09:24:59 pm
Another thing that seems to agree with you storm is that from what I've read Mars doesn't have much of an electromagnetic field, which would indicate a solid core and little geologic activity. Right?
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:33:20 pm
I thinks so but we don'y know how long ago the dynamo died. There could either be residual magma or resultant magma from geologically recent impacts. and who knows how long out gassing would go on even if there was no real vulcanism. a huge deposit of radioactive material could cause vulcanism in a local area. I would be a vein of it large enough to have critical mass and be a slow motion nuclear explosion lasting eons. Gravitational effects might do it. (Boy, it's fun being an armchair planetary theorist )
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 29, 2004, 09:43:36 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.  



The quote below rules out several of your sources.  

Quote:

Since methane has a relatively short lifetime on Mars for atmospheric gases, about 300 years or so, scientists believe there must be some process at work to keep replenishing its concentration in the atmosphere.



   



:::forgets to breath:::  
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 09:51:42 pm
Quote:

not trying to "rain" on your parade but recent observations of the Earth's upper atmosphere seemed to show a nearly constant bombardment by millions of microcomets. One rogue scientist has long proposed this as the source of Earth's oceans. While scientists don't necessarily buy thattheory wholesale they are giving ground on his interpretation of the phenomenon of microcomet bombardment.  



I have heard of it, but what I heard made it appear very unlikely.   Has there been any independent confirmation of the existance of the "micro-comets"?  Last I heard there was not.  Mars due to its much thinner atmosphere (and the moon with none of course) should be showing clear indications of surface impacts from them, indications that I have not heard of.  

Myself I still don't think that there is any clear indicator of life past or present on Mars.  At best some things that suggest the possibilty only.    
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 10:06:34 pm
There was independent back up for it happening here. [The micro-comet bombardment] not necessarily the cometary origin of earth's water] But that does not mean that it happens to mars. Anyhoo    I was just throwing up possibilities that might come out in debate.
Title: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 08:04:05 pm
Quote:

A trio of research teams independently probing the Martian atmosphere for signs of methane have found it, a combined discovery that opens the door for a host of theories as to how the smelly gas got there.

 
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: ActiveX on March 29, 2004, 08:05:40 pm
Aliens can fart, at least if that is how they communicate we got Bob to be a translator...
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: SL-Punisher on March 29, 2004, 08:26:19 pm
Damn you I was gonna post a fart joke!
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 08:34:03 pm
Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: ferretlxix on March 29, 2004, 08:40:13 pm
That's no suprise!!
They found us Hydrans quite a while ago

 
   
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 08:50:51 pm
Quote:

Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.  



The quote below rules out several of your sources.  

Quote:

Since methane has a relatively short lifetime on Mars for atmospheric gases, about 300 years or so, scientists believe there must be some process at work to keep replenishing its concentration in the atmosphere.



 
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:01:20 pm
The larger the molecule the longer it will stay in the atmosphere barring photo-chemistry and radiation effects. Lighter molecules can escape the atmosphere in a number of ways but the loss of oxygen, for example took millions of years.

Still  with radiation and photchemistry that would leave only vulcanism or ongoing processes. Are they suggesting a biological process as a serious contender?
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 09:13:41 pm
Quote:

The larger the molecule the longer it will stay in the atmosphere barring photo-chemistry and radiation effects. Lighter molecules can escape the atmosphere in a number of ways but the loss of oxygen, for example took millions of years.

Still  with radiation and photchemistry that would leave only vulcanism or ongoing processes. Are they suggesting a biological process as a serious contender?  




There seems to be two schools of thought.  

Quote:

"I think the first possibility, volcanism, is probably best," Chicarro said. "Volcanism has not been ruled out as a modern phenomena on Mars."

Nothing so explosive as an eruption is needed to expel the gas. It could possibly seep out through gentle, consistent hydrothermal activity, Chicarro said.



Quote:

Krasnopolosky, on the other hand, said while he believes that Martian microbes are the most likely methane culprits, he cannot definitely rule out other factors.



The below is my opinion only:

I had been under (the possibly outdated) impression that Mars was not Vulcanically active.   Given the short life span of atmospheric methane, a major comet impact can be ruled out, but not relatively minor debris from a near miss.  Ancient oceans should also be ignored.

Then of course there is "other" or "unknown" processes.    
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:23:02 pm
not trying to "rain" on your parade but recent observations of the Earth's upper atmosphere seemed to show a nearly constant bombardment by millions of microcomets. One rogue scientist has long proposed this as the source of Earth's oceans. While scientists don't necessarily buy thattheory wholesale they are giving ground on his interpretation of the phenomenon of microcomet bombardment.
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: SL-Punisher on March 29, 2004, 09:24:59 pm
Another thing that seems to agree with you storm is that from what I've read Mars doesn't have much of an electromagnetic field, which would indicate a solid core and little geologic activity. Right?
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 09:33:20 pm
I thinks so but we don'y know how long ago the dynamo died. There could either be residual magma or resultant magma from geologically recent impacts. and who knows how long out gassing would go on even if there was no real vulcanism. a huge deposit of radioactive material could cause vulcanism in a local area. I would be a vein of it large enough to have critical mass and be a slow motion nuclear explosion lasting eons. Gravitational effects might do it. (Boy, it's fun being an armchair planetary theorist )
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 29, 2004, 09:43:36 pm
Quote:

Quote:

Volcanism, cometary impact saline sea chemistry in the early seas or microbial metabolism or even plant life dacay.  



The quote below rules out several of your sources.  

Quote:

Since methane has a relatively short lifetime on Mars for atmospheric gases, about 300 years or so, scientists believe there must be some process at work to keep replenishing its concentration in the atmosphere.



   



:::forgets to breath:::  
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: IKV Nemesis D7L on March 29, 2004, 09:51:42 pm
Quote:

not trying to "rain" on your parade but recent observations of the Earth's upper atmosphere seemed to show a nearly constant bombardment by millions of microcomets. One rogue scientist has long proposed this as the source of Earth's oceans. While scientists don't necessarily buy thattheory wholesale they are giving ground on his interpretation of the phenomenon of microcomet bombardment.  



I have heard of it, but what I heard made it appear very unlikely.   Has there been any independent confirmation of the existance of the "micro-comets"?  Last I heard there was not.  Mars due to its much thinner atmosphere (and the moon with none of course) should be showing clear indications of surface impacts from them, indications that I have not heard of.  

Myself I still don't think that there is any clear indicator of life past or present on Mars.  At best some things that suggest the possibilty only.    
Title: Re: Methane found on Mars. Biology or Geology?
Post by: Stormbringer on March 29, 2004, 10:06:34 pm
There was independent back up for it happening here. [The micro-comet bombardment] not necessarily the cometary origin of earth's water] But that does not mean that it happens to mars. Anyhoo    I was just throwing up possibilities that might come out in debate.