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Taldrenites => Dynaverse II Experiences => Topic started by: Gook on June 25, 2004, 05:11:23 pm

Title: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Gook on June 25, 2004, 05:11:23 pm: Honour system.

Each player has a pool of ship points (SPs). Each player has the same number of points save for the RM/ARM who will have triple/double points and can either use them themselves or award them to other players.

Players are free to choose to fly any ship they want provided they have enough SPs.

SPs last for a given number of years and then are refreshed once the SP cycle renews. So if an SP cycle was a week (IRL), players would be able to choose ships within their SP range and if ships are lost they have a more restricted choice.

Ships are graded for points. Line variants of any ship type being the baseline, or original designs being the baseline. (some gradings will NOT be per SFB). Ships of a given class can then be upgraded by spending points. Refits 25% of base SPs, Specialties 50% of base SPs. If ships are unique with no refit they may be classed in a different grade to other "similar" hull sizes.

The grading can be something like this:

FF/Pol/Ftr/PF      1SP
DD         2SP
CL/NCL/HDD      3SP
CA/NCA        5SP
CV         7SP
BCH/DNL        8SP
BCV         9SP
DN/CVA/SCS   10SP
BB/BBV        15SP

Players have a pool of 10 SPs.

CVs are a bit tricky, but as a rule of thumb 1-7 fighters its a variant and costs line+special costs. 8-12 fighters its a CV and pays CV cost, but base CV only refits are added. 13+ Fighters its a CVA (exemption Cavalier which is a CV). 1st generation fighters are free. 2nd generation fighters cost 1 SP and third generation fighters 2 SPs.

PFTs are variants in the main. Where PFs are on DNs or the like the big ship cost is taken. Interceptors are free. PFs (squadron) 1 SP, PF+ (squadron) 2 SPs. each PFL or "funny"variant 1 SP.(PF stuff may need work I am not too familair with them).

After a week the losses of all pilots are wiped out and they get a new pool of points, however to stop a BB fest, if they carry over a ship into a new cycle they pay 50% of the original cost by way of maintenance. They can trade in the ship, but any ship a player has must pay maintenance on cycle renewal if the ship would have cost 5 or more SPs to purchase.

The Effect will be a player may fly anything but will have to be more circumspect in their use of his ships.

Examples:

If I want to fly as Fed CA its 5SPs. If I upgrade to CAR it's another 1.25 SPS, but their the Upgrade path ends. If I want a Fed CC then its 5+2.5 SPs (latter for specialty upgrade)= 7. If I want to fly and MDC its 3SPs for base CM and another 1.5 SPs for specialty upgrade=4.5. BB/BBV is above the normal player limit and so an A/RM will have to donate points to that player.

Now the rub is this. Jeff buys a CC at 7 points on day one of a cycle. Dogmatix flies a D5L at 4.5 points. Jeff has 3 points left in his SP bank and Dogmatix 5.5. Dogamatix kills Jeff (sorry Jeff). Jeff now has only 3 points left for the rest of the cycle and can either choose to fly in a line CL type or a DDL or other variant. The restriction will last until the end of the current SP Cycle. Dogmatix tires of his D5L (unlikely I know) and has his eyes on shiney new C7, he trades in his D5L at no loss and purchases a C7 for 9 SP. Dogmatix now has to be very careful as if his C7 is destroyed he will only be able to fly a an FF for the rest of the Cycle. He may not be as gung-ho as normal and thus may be more prone to disengaging than normal to protect his ship, as he would have to do IRL.

Gook wants to fly a fleet. He wants to fly 3 DFs to do so will cost him 4.5 SPs and each time a DF gets blown to hell it's another 1.5 SPs. If Gook wants to fly 3 MDCs, he can't they are 4.5 SPs each, so unless points are donated by an A/RM the best he can do MDC wise is 2.

Fluf wants his CVA, 10 points, his fighter will cost him too. 1st generation fighters are free. Second generation fighters will cost another SP and third generation fighters 2 SPs (paid only once on purchase). As CVA is 10 points to upgrade fighters he will have to have points from A/RM.

Hexx wants Lyran BCH. Interceptors are free. PFs cost one point (for all) and PFLs 1additional point (this needs PF person input) so his BCH will be 8 points, he has 3 PF and a PFL which is another point total 10 points.

Maxpower flies a Dragoon as it is a line CA no charge is made for its fighters. If he switches to a Mongol he pays CV SPs, and SPs for fighters per Fluf example. As usual the Hydrans will be tricky to "box up" but basically its common sense. A Cavalier would be a CV, but OS a CVA with fighter upgrade points.

This is just a rough outline. It will need to be polished up. It is dependant on an honour system. Gradings need to be kept rough and ready and not too detailed. Use common sense, and when in doubt pay more. I know it looks complicated but it really is not once the concept is grasped. The effect will be to allow virtually any ship to be flown, but at a price. It should engender caution in bigger ship pilots (as they should have flying expensive bits of kit around) as they don't want to be busted to FF's :)

Thoughts people.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: FPF-DieHard on June 25, 2004, 05:18:36 pm: Too complicated. let me consult my slide-rule and I'll get back to you.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: FPF-AJTK on June 25, 2004, 05:24:05 pm: Quote from: FPF-DieHard on June 25, 2004, 05:18:36 pm
Too complicated. let me consult my slide-rule and I'll get back to you.

The very FLOWER of TACT, DieHard!

:rofl:
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: mathcubeguy on June 25, 2004, 05:27:32 pm: Erm I sure hope that there is a rule that says once you run out of SP you can still fly a frigate...
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Bonk on June 25, 2004, 05:29:04 pm: Ditto.

If we can automate it, then yes. I'll look at your suggestions for my attempt to produce a satisfactory OoB system as described (roughly) here (http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php?topic=163342471.0).

Perhaps we should try and get a meeting of sorts together on this on MSN or the chat channel here...
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Gook on June 25, 2004, 05:30:14 pm: Quote from: FPF-DieHard on June 25, 2004, 05:18:36 pm
Too complicated. let me consult my slide-rule and I'll get back to you.

Heheheee, fail basic math? I tried not to use numbers over 10 :)
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Gook on June 25, 2004, 05:34:21 pm: Quote from: mathcubeguy on June 25, 2004, 05:27:32 pm
Erm I sure hope that there is a rule that says once you run out of SP you can still fly a frigate...

Yep, I did say a draft, I thought I'd said that but didn't. MY Bad.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Lepton on June 25, 2004, 05:43:35 pm: It's an intriguing system, but why not impliment it based on pp and ship prices? If pp rewards for missions were cut down such that folks rose slower in banked pp and had less of it overall, OoB could be enforced by pp cost of ships. What is the average cost of a frigate?? Is 15 times that enough for a BB?? I have no idea really. In general I think cheap line ships and restricted or expensive specialty and capital ships would be better.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: mathcubeguy on June 25, 2004, 05:54:14 pm: That restricts the bigger ships to the races core base and it completly alienates the casual player.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Lepton on June 25, 2004, 06:02:45 pm: How's the casual player going to feel who gets his C7 shot out from under him and has to fly a frigate until the next production cycle? PP unfortunately is the ultimate currency of this system and its existence in the system allows folks to recover lost ships by building up their reserve again.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Surfal on June 25, 2004, 06:24:58 pm: What if we make the cost of ships about 10 times what it normally runs, so a FF costs 10K, a DD 40K, a CA 80K, a BCH 300K etc. Then give each player 125K prestige to start, and another 125K each week. Over a 4 week server a casual player could bank enought to get to a BCH by week 3 if he was careful. Nutters would get there faster, but not insanely fast. RMs could be given bigger amounts to distribute as they saw fit.

My numbers are off I'm sure, just tossing the idea. As Lepton pointed out, PP is the currency, and this way we could use the current currency, maintain some OOB while giving the RMs some control over the OOB, and not require anything from the scripters.

Am I missing something, because this seems too good?
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Gook on June 25, 2004, 06:25:57 pm: Lepton.

Ship prices are up for debate. The point is you can fly (just about) anything if you have the PP. I mentioned in another thread the old system of shiploss maybe a way forward.

All:

I know it all looks complicated but its only half a dozen paragraphs (most are examples). Now consider trying to have a none automated F&E system, it would cover considerably more pages, my memory of the F&E build rules is that they are weighty indeed, not just a few paras. As I have said in another thread, automated systems are obviously a first choice, but coding and testing takes time, a "manual" system as a stop gap just needs people to be able to read and do some very basic calculations. Once you know a DD is 2 points (etc) its really not that hard.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Capt_Bearslayer_XC on June 25, 2004, 06:29:06 pm: Quote from: Lepton on June 25, 2004, 06:02:45 pm
How's the casual player going to feel who gets his C7 shot out from under him and has to fly a frigate until the next production cycle? PP unfortunately is the ultimate currency of this system and its existence in the system allows folks to recover lost ships by building up their reserve again.

Interesting idea, Gook.

Would it be possible to add SP's to your total by PvP victories?

And I don't see how it would kill the casual player, since each week, they would get a fresh 10 SP's (or 5 SP's added to their total if their ship survives).

But I do agree with DH, it would be a hard system to keep track of.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Gook on June 25, 2004, 06:50:13 pm: The problem with using PP is that it favours those who are in the "nutter" category and below. A "nutter may have 250K PP and so shiploss doesn't matter, but everybody has the same SPs and can't increase them (save by RM donation), so he (the nutter) has to be equally careful when flying his ships as someone with less PP, as the PP "currency" has been devalued by the SP system. Thus a more level (though never truly level) playing field will be created, so sheer time online does not give the advantage of not having to worry about PP. Fluf would even have to worry as he has 10 SPs just like mr. n00b.

As for VCs they are a different matter but can easily be worked into server rules on capital ship destruction, you may even want to add VCs for unused SPs, but that's a bit wild.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Lepton on June 25, 2004, 06:55:01 pm: And if I didn't make this clear, the upgrade system Gook proposes could work based on pp ship prices alone as well. There need not be any terminal upgrade to a shipline (that is too SFC3 to me or SFC1) but merely a logical choice if you have the pp to do it. Plus, if you can merely trade in any ship for its SP equivalent, I don't reallly understand how that adds anything to what we already have in place. It has an F&E flavor, I understand, but not much else.

I understand what you are saying, Gook, but it seems 6 of one, half-dozen of another to me. Despite SP points, players will still have to earn pp to buy ships unless ship prices are significantly leveled out. Nutters are usually not only players on the server alot but also good PvPers at least in comparison to myself, so either way the noob is screwed. Being a noob and getting killed in a C7 and then having to fly a DD for a week sounds far worse than being a noob and getting killled in a D5L and then buying another one a little later. Nutters will always be a problem. Not much can be done about it, but your system has a certain flair to it. Basically, EP points for players. Let's have a server that uses it. See how it goes.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: FPF-AJTK on June 25, 2004, 07:17:45 pm: Quite frankly, as someone who is only a mid-level kinda player in regards to time online (100K in GW2) I think that there SHOULD BE a reward for being a "nutter" type player.

Granted, the casual player should be able to have fun as well, but making PP irrelevant is kinda like playing AD+D where a 1st level player with 100xps can have the same equipment, spells, etc as a 10th level player with a gazillion xps.

No one deserves to have the best of the best of the best (with honors, sir!) than Sir Flufalot, but if you make PP irrelevant, he might not see the point in spending his entire freaking existance on the server, and where is the fun in that? You have taken away the pleasure of all those that would kill him during his nutter time. (Or be killed by him, in one of his cheese boat carriers :cuss: :rofl: )

I can sorta see evening missions out, etc so that all the races can flip hexes at the same rate (SORTA, kinda seems like you know your races strengths and weaknesses when you pick it IMHO) but to not reward people who spend massive amounts of time on the server is :lame: IMHO.

As I have stated before, I really dont care HOW you fix/improve/totally F up the bpv/class system, I am still gonna play, so it doesnt really matter to me. But you might want to consider who are the most important peeps on the server... those who play a few hours a week, or those who install an IV and sit on a 5 gallon bucket for the duration of the server. Whom do you think it wiser to cater to?

Its Fluffys server and he will do as he wishes, and I know he is trying to be fair, but dont leave out the nutter, of whom you are KING :notworthy: when settin up your own server.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Surfal on June 25, 2004, 07:35:53 pm: Okay, did I miss something? Lemme say it again:

1) Gook is proposing a system that awards a given number of points per week, and players buy their ships out of that limited pool of points.

2) I suggested that we give each player a large number of PP per week, so they can buy the ships they want. PP will be large enough to reduce (but not eliminate) the value of PP earned in mission.

(2) is virtually the same as (1), except that it using an existing currency mechanism, and doesn't require players to police themselves
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Fluf on June 25, 2004, 08:53:57 pm: Interesting proposal. I kinda see the merits of it. I have no problem with the Presitge. Thats minor in my mind. I play the game for those long hours because I want to help my team win, and I love it. Prestige doesnt matter to me.

If a system like this could be worked out, I would love to try it.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Mog on June 26, 2004, 03:53:00 am: There is already a reward for nutters - they affect the map more.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Gook on June 26, 2004, 03:58:59 am: The Nutter and Committed player do get an advantage, they have a bank of PP to buy anything they want within the SP totals that remain. They get their ships earlier because they stay on line longer.

The casual player will get his ship eventually, just not as early.

Now the difference between a purely PP based system (manual) and the honour system is, that although the nutter gets his ship earlier than the casual player, he has to be careful about the way he uses it. He has the same number of SPs as the casual player. So the nutter can have 1,000,000 PP and buy his DN, but if he loses it he still has 900,000 pp, but no SPs, so all he can buy is an FF.

In a purely PP system the Nutter shrugs his shoulders and buys another DN and still has 800,000 pp in the bank, there is no real penalty for losing a capital asset (VCs are not part of the system, but can be bolted on). Players have to manage their SPs and the way they play.

SP cycles should not be a problem, server starts say noon on a Saturday EST, first cycle runs until noon the following Saturday (for example).

Length and complexity seem to taxing some, but just look at the rules for GW3, there was no outcry about them and they are considerably longer and more complex. I think Complexity is a none issue. In a nutshell, you buy a ship add a quarter or a half its costs in SPs (if you want a refit or funny) and that's it. Couldn't get simpler really.

I do note however there does not appear to be much enthusiasm, so perhaps it should be shelved, it was an idea to try and solve a given problem. The other alternative is OOB and none-OOB servers run alternately and people have to learn a new OOB each server until the system gets mechanised. This system could have universal application.

Another alternative until automation is never the same ship twice. So if you are killed in one say a C7, you can buy any ship EXCEPT a C7 for the rest of the server and you lose the ability to fly a given ship each time you lose one.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: FPF-AJTK on June 26, 2004, 06:34:27 am: Thats my point, not that the nutter specifically PLAYS to GET PP, but that the nutter has enough PP that he CAN afford to loose his ship with little/no consequnce. PP is supposed to be your prestige and respect among your fellow Captains and the Admiralty of the fleet in which you serve.
I.E. Kirk STOLE the Enterprise, then blew it up. Then saved the world. (Nice PP bonus I imagine) Then he walked OUT of the court room and into his new Enterprise.

Thats the way it should be for a nutter. Loose that DNH? NP Admiral, here is another one, careful of the paint, its still tacky. The one where you have the SP points I dont like. The one where PP is still the coin of the realm sounds A-OK to me. In the above example. "Ok Admiral Kirk, you saved the world, you kept Genesis away from the Klinks, your exonerated and a Starship Captain again, and were gonna give you another ship. HOWEVER, your gonna have to fly a freaking FRIGATE for a few months (game time week) until we decide to give you another CA. :screwloose:

All Im sayin is, that the casual player obviously doesnt really care if he makes enough PP to fly a big ship. Either due to his own choice or time restrictions, he simply isnt on enough to get a DN. And all we have been talking about for a WEEK is OoB so it wont BE another DN fest.

If I actually play enough time to buy the biggest non-OoB ship, or if I get the chance to FLY an OoB ship, I should not have to be deathly afraid of loosing it for fear of flying an FF for a week. THAT would be FAR more of a killjoy to me. It will have a detrimental affect on PvP.

And NO VC's for killing an OoB ship? Whats the point of Pvp? Lets just flip hexes. In the interests of making it "fair" to everyone, it sounds like your taking alot of fun out of it for the vet players who do most of the work on the server.

Fluf just said all he cared about was helping his team win. Well, if fluf kills DH, or t00l kills Fluf, etc, but gets no VCs for it, AND knows he is gonna be in a frigate if he looses, what is the point of staying in combat past the first point where you take serious damage? He can retreat at no loss to his side in VCs, except he will be out of the hex for a bit, fix his ship and then continue on. He would be far more of an asset in his OoB ship than in an FF for a week.

There is no way its not going to impact on PvP IMHO.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Laflin on June 26, 2004, 10:27:22 am: There is always PvP for the sake of PvP alone - bragging rights when you kill a worthy opponent ;D
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Lepton on June 26, 2004, 12:14:08 pm: I think the SP system is a perfectly viable option and should be tested at our earliest convenience. I think the complexity issue comes in with upgrade/refit tree. That portion could be shelved in my estimation. I understand that it is an essential corollary to the system as a F-CA and a F-CB should not cost the same in SP, for example. I don't really know a solution to that, but I like the idea of EP (Economic points in F&E) for players.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Julin Eurthyr on June 26, 2004, 07:12:58 pm: I like the basis behind the system.

However, I'd like to see 2 things happen to this:

1: Rewrite the price guide to where a player can get like 4-6 CAs or 2-3 BCHs or 1 DN per week.

2. Raise the upper limit of the pointless player's default ship to say a line DD or CL/DW (No CWs, those are almost CAs...) or a specialty FF. At least a couple of races FFs are pure suckage (read, Gorn FF, Romulan Snipes), while people don't have too many issues with the DWs or CLs... The Line aspect keeps people out of drone boats / escorts that are preety powerful at that level...

This would allow people a few more deaths per week (as it sits now, all a player can afford before begging to their RM is 2 CAs in a week...), while still working to police the big, big ships. I'd also like to see a means to where the RM is not involved in the process at all, ie, no point sharing. I'd hate to hear "so-and-so got the BBV because he's RM _____'s best friend". Instead, even if he had to save most (say 75%) of their weekly after-maintenance points for running in their CL, they should be able to buy the BBV on their own (bankrupting them in one death) with no intervention.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: kbf-jd on June 26, 2004, 08:47:59 pm: Quote from: Gook on June 25, 2004, 06:50:13 pm
The problem with using PP is that it favours those who are in the "nutter" category and below. A "nutter may have 250K PP and so shiploss doesn't matter, but everybody has the same SPs and can't increase them (save by RM donation), so he (the nutter) has to be equally careful when flying his ships as someone with less PP, as the PP "currency" has been devalued by the SP system. Thus a more level (though never truly level) playing field will be created, so sheer time online does not give the advantage of not having to worry about PP. Fluf would even have to worry as he has 10 SPs just like mr. n00b.

As for VCs they are a different matter but can easily be worked into server rules on capital ship destruction, you may even want to add VCs for unused SPs, but that's a bit wild.

Well Gook,

Maybe I am a nutter, and maybe i'm not. I had 130,000 PP banked at the end of GW2(as a klingon) and over 30,000 banked as a Lyran. It's getting a little tiresome to see people flying around in ships that you COULD buy, but cannot for one reason or another.

Yes I could have asked for an assigned ship, but then I would be stuck in it until I was killed in it.(ask someone who was "rewarded" with a C8B adout that...)

Personally, I like the ability to switch between ships depending on what's needed. A PVP ship one day, a droner the next(even though durring "Hail Mary" I killed one CCH, ran one CCH off and ran froma a Dreadnaught...(hay, I'm not stupid... even though I did get a downed shield on the DN with T-bombs, the other klingon heavy weapon) in a D5D, I really don't like fighting people in it...).

The point is, if I spend enough time on a server, I should be able to buy what I want to fly and fly something that has a reasonable chance against someone else who has spent the same ammount of time on the server...

Seems fair to me...

jd
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: Gook on June 27, 2004, 05:17:16 am: Julin,

No details are cast in stone its just a concept at the moment. Detail can be thrashed out, but I don't intend wasting a lot of time on detail if the initial concept is not acceptable.

JD

You can switch boats as many times as you like with no loss of SP. You only lose SP when you lose a boat PvP. it Just means that if you are losing you will be more inclined to disengage than fight a losing battle and lose your ship, as it should be, rather than Kamikaze fights to the death all the time. Additionally It will take skill to make sure an opponent can't disengage, and the all important first pass will become important again.
Title: Re: 1st draft of possible honour system-comments
Post by: KAT Chuut-Ritt on June 27, 2004, 05:23:32 am: Gook you have to give me your MSN Messenger addy again and geton it occasionally.