<snip>
With that said, at the risk of putting salt in ones wounds, it was not surprising they closed frankly. They put out sub-par project after sub-par project. SFC1 was never fully patched to go work on SFC2, and SFC2 was never fully fixed to go work on SFC3/newer projects.. (see a trend?).
I saw some sales data that showed sfc1 sold more then sfc2 then sold OP then sold SFC3. Why the fall off of sales to each consecutive product? Simple business 101. You cant keep burning your customer base and not expect to loose them over time.
<snip>
Hello Harlequin, :)<snip>
With that said, at the risk of putting salt in ones wounds, it was not surprising they closed frankly. They put out sub-par project after sub-par project. SFC1 was never fully patched to go work on SFC2, and SFC2 was never fully fixed to go work on SFC3/newer projects.. (see a trend?).
I saw some sales data that showed sfc1 sold more then sfc2 then sold OP then sold SFC3. Why the fall off of sales to each consecutive product? Simple business 101. You cant keep burning your customer base and not expect to loose them over time.
<snip>
I completely disagree with you.
I own SFC I, SFC II: EAW, SFC: OP, and SFC III.
I love them all.
I specifically bought SFC: OP to Mod it.
That is the sign of a good product.
You Sir, are simply a customer that probably can never be pleased.
Heres a 'wee-tip", never buy anything, then you'll never be disappointed.
AgentSloan
sure the 4th sfc games (sfc1, sfc2 eaw, sfc2 op, sfc3) could have Ben fix fully, mostly sfc1, like many place the stop and concentrate on the new, but when the lunch sfc3 the seem to have made a rush with ti, the did make well design ship but since the only made 4 race the could made more race and do more type of ship, but if the ask the player what to do for the sfc3 we could have told them what we wanted but nook, and since taldren is no longer the will be no sfc4, sure it cost money and time to make a game, but with the help of the comunity the would have made it faster and bether, now if someone do make a sfc4 it might be a bad game since the don't know of the forum and player and or the wont consider what the player's want in a sfc4.Taldren is still around only in S.Korea and still has a Web site www.taldren.com and I discovered if the source code is released they will not be making anymore SFC games because the programmers in hear can do it.That is why I am opposed to it.Then you would have DL the new game from the programmers web sites and what support will they offer and would have to burn it to CD.If the source code is released that is it for any future SFC series of games that is if Taldren comes out with a new source code possibly more 3D
A forewarning.. This is not a 'lets hold hands, sing round the campfire and sing songs' kind of post about Taldren and its demise. If you do NOT want to read anything critical about taldren then please stop reading and move on to another post.This was not Taldrens fault it was the publishers fault and you seem new to all this as it has been posted and talked about on Taldrens Boards in several categories and several threads and I was only a user there for over 5 months so blame the publishers especially Activision.They destroyed all remaining copies of SFC3 after dismal sales after the Nemesis movie did poorly at the box office.You are quite new to all this now is a time to learn.I would use the spellchecker to as my iespell pick up several mistakes.
First, I have sympathy for the employees of taldren. I am not sure how many people worked @ taldren in the end but they all have families to feed and its sad whenever any company closes. Certainly my heart goes out to all those newly unemployed.
With that said, at the risk of putting salt in ones wounds, it was not surprising they closed frankly. They put out sub-par project after sub-par project. SFC1 was never fully patched to go work on SFC2, and SFC2 was never fully fixed to go work on SFC3/newer projects.. (see a trend?).
I saw some sales data that showed sfc1 sold more then sfc2 then sold OP then sold SFC3. Why the fall off of sales to each consecutive product? Simple business 101. You cant keep burning your customer base and not expect to loose them over time.
I for one washed my hands of taldren after the sfc2 mess. A broken game missing promised core features, that took months to get a patch out that got the game semi-working. That was the last straw for me and this company, it lost me as a customer. And from the current state of affairs it looks like I wasnt the only one. Thus I find it surprising why there this big awe and surprise they shut down, I, and am sure others, saw this coming a yr or two ago unless they changed their ways as a company.
On a side noteI think they could have taken a few pointers from bioware on how to run as a company. While a few minor features got cut (as expected in any development, game or otherwise) in their massive project neverwinter nights, in shipped more or less as promsied working out of the box. And they STILL, after 2+ yrs, put out updates to tweak, patch and add new content. If taldren learned some lessons for companies like bioware they may still be around. If a company like taldren tried a project the size of nwn I can only imagine the disaster it would have turned out to be. Harsh perhaps, but my honest view point.
With that all said, I do think taldren had some excellent creative minds and give them credit for that. They also were very personable and took care of its community from what I saw, another good trait. But that wasnt enough. You need to have good business ethics and compitancy. Which, sadly, they didnt seem to have.
In the end I will toast them, for when their game worked it did give me enjoymant, and I have no ill feelings to them as people, just as a compnay who I feel I was taken by.
Good luck to all the ex-taldren employees, I hope you all find safe landing.
Harlequin
[url]http://shadowlands.blogdns.net[/url]
irc-shadowland.ath.cx
<snip>
I got back into it and bought the sequels when I discovered modding, and truth be told, I have spent far more time playing with the shiplist and kitbashing models than actually playing the game. I never bought SFC3 because of the complaints, both of bugs and of dropped or dumbed down features.
Have you seen the manuals for 3ed edition D&D? 300 pages covers about 2 manuals out of about a half dozen or so. NWN has a server, dm client, player client, tool set and single player element. I'd say much more complex. Plus its a true 3d game with 360 degree camera. And has the ability to easily add custom content and has a c+ based scripting language built in.
Over all I'd say more complex then SFC. Certainly you can disagree.
> I completely disagree with you.
Why? what did I say that was not accurate?
> I own SFC I, SFC II: EAW, SFC: OP, and SFC III.
> I love them all.
You are entitled to, didnt say otherwise.
> I specifically bought SFC: OP to Mod it.
> That is the sign of a good product.
One could say a 'good' product is one that works as advertised. Not one that has a bonus feature.
> You Sir, are simply a customer that probably can never be pleased.
On the contrary, didnt I say I was very happy with bioware products? I am pleased when a product works. SFC never fully got fixed/working. Especially when it was broken out of the box after shelling out $50.
> Heres a 'wee-tip", never buy anything, then you'll never be disappointed.
Full of teen angst are we? *chuckle*
Instead of "final thought" it should have been titled....final running rant... ???
What is the whole purpose for the thread?
To gloat?
I mean...WTF?
<edit>
I typed a long and detailed reply point for point....but on second thought...It's like trying to explain quantum physics to a three year old....
You will simply continue with the "yeah but" crap to anything anyone says...
So what you are really trying to say is.....TALDREN SUCKS AND THEY DESERVED TO GO OUT OF BUSSINESS....
Ok kid...we got it...you made your point....now frickin drop it...
Or be booted for the trollish attitude twords people who disagree with you...
The only thing that really amazes me....the people who have Taldren issues generally gave up on them years ago...and only now return to piss on the grave....
Well...IF YOU GAVE UP ON TALDREN YEARS AGO.....WHAT POSSIBLE REASON DO YOU HAVE TO RETURN NOW?....if not to troll? >:(
Actually wasn't the D2 added after about 6 months after release? After months of "We will only release when it's ready", but then dumped it out there just before heading off to E3 to unveil Orion Pirates, and it was in a horrid state?
> Star Fleet Battles is a VERY complicated board game. There is a reason it took 20+ years to translate SFB to computer. The task was monumental from a programming perspective. I worship Taldren for having pulled off the project.
While 'worship' is too stong a word IMO, I certainly give them A+ for effort. D+, at best, for execution.
While its not impossible to translate a game PnP game to the PC its very difficult. Some compromises have to be made. I previouslly stated my admiration for Bioware. BUT they had to make some changes to the D&D rules as well. While it wasnt a perfect translaton to 3e D&D it was about as best as you can get in a PC translation. So I dont hold that against taldren for the changes vs the PnP version.
My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced.
My quip with them is their poor product support and dropping us like yesterdays newspaper every time a new product got announced
Lets face it, they didnt get any help with Acti - Lack of - Vision being the publisher. STCD and STGD has had numerous run in's with them regarding the poor stance they have in trek gaming. Back in the VERY old days of trek gaming (something not a lot of people can remember) you had the classics like Starfleet Academy, Klingon Academy, the original SFC. All this was due to some friendly compeition between the major publishers...Simon & Schuster, Activision, Spectrum Holobyte (MicroProse) and Interplay.Good on you Victor1st this what I am talking about.It is the Publishers not the developers and Taldren is a developer and never carried the license from Paramount.If this was Taldrens board you would have a lot of their Moderators correcting on this as well as Ann her self.There where two other rules over at Taldrens boards don't bad mouth Taldren and the games.I will never be able to get my Starfleet Academy and New World fixed.I have on my address bar a utility called iespell Internet Explorer Spell checker ,Pestalence put it on two forums in Taldrens boards and I DL it and I have always used it since.I will have to get over to STGD more often.
Once Activision got all the licenses the following happened...
Armada 2, Elite Force 2, Starfleet Command 3, ConQuest Online.
Now i personally think Armada 2 is a good game, its lacking in some aspects, but i still personally like it. Elite Force 2? Complete and total disaster...MP only had one map and there was issues with games and the amount of people playing them when in GameSpy Arcade. ConQuest Online was another disaster, it was Pay For Play (yes, there was a PfP trek game) which was basically chess with Star Trek pieces, there was a lot of strategy, but guess what? Activision pulled the plug on the whole lot 9 months after it was released.
Then of course we have SFC 3...mixed results.
You take out the competition between the punlishers and the good games die. You will still get buggy games, that much is certain. SFC 3 is based on the OP engine and that game has taken soooooo long to patch up, SFC was bound to have issues. It doesnt help with Activision being the publisher. A publisher who probably knew that they would be suing viacom by that time. The one bain is the slow release on patches which has happened all the way through the SFC series.
As trek gaming goes on though Paramount themsevles are taking a greater interest in what is happening right here, right now. They are continuing to visit the STGD and STGU central forums and they are posting away to let people know that they do still care. STGD itself will be holding an interview with Harry Lang of paramount in the very near future. There is also something happening in the background which may see the return, at least partially, of the old Trek gaming official message boards and site, a lot of new gamers are buying the game and going to the official gaming section at www.startrek.com and seeing nothing, STGD has asked for the return of the official gaming boards for the support and interest of the new Star Trek gaming players...plus...its a good place to spam... *cough* advertise :)
<snip>
Now that...is something I bet the majority here would argue....I myself...being a tester will surely argue...One reason taldren spent so much time fixing stuff is due to the rabid fan base the dedication of the Devs....And the donation of hundreds of hours of time testing stuff....
When Taldren HAD to move on to revenue generating projects....they STLL gave customer support by letting Khoromag continue fixes...
Dave himself did the final fixes for OP....
<snip>
> So answer the question genious......
I dont engage flame bait or trolls.
When you learn how to get your point across w/o the need for insults or being combative then perhaps we can have a discussion. not a flame war as you so badly seem to want.
Have a nice day.
Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.
Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.
> I also have to agree that they didn't exactly "Drop us like yesterdays newspaper". They did in fact continue to fix their older products even after the later ones were released. In fact, probably to the detriment to the newer in the case of OP, which fell behind in fixes shortly after it was released, and was in fact the test bed for fairly controversial changes rather than try it out on the older product first.
Keep in mind after the SFC2 mess I stopped buying the series, never bought op or sfc3 so I can not comment on those products. I can only speak of the expereinces until I decided I cut my losses. I think my comments about SFC1 and 2 in of themsevles are accurate IMO.
> The speed with which the fixes were delivered was in fact less that desirable, and many players were lost because of the time frame in which they came (personally I feel that too much time was spent on non-critical things like "balance issues" instead of fixes in the beginning, but that's my opinion).
Yes, its one thing not to ship d2 with sfc2, but its a whole new ball of wax when the game takes almost half a year to get playable and get the features promised.
Lets not forget either, they knew sfc was shipping broken and missing core features and did not alert anyone until posts started showing up on the forum soon after it hit store shelves. Now while from a pure cash flow POV I understand why they didnt do such, BUT its was still VERY dishonest and suckered many people in to pay full price for something that was worth, at best, half. And still then your paying them to be their alpha tester. Then some here you wonder why they went under? Many felt screwed per se and with just cause. They gambled if they could shift blame enough and 'try again' with a new product they could keep the losses of paying customers at a mininum. They gambled and lost. Out of everything this aspect of the mess really annoyed me.
....
From what I recall, and I may be wrong, major aspects of D2 (code wise) didnt even ship on the scf2 cd. It was added many months later in a patch. So even if, IMO, won.net didnt pull out I have my doubts it would have worked.
Adding few details as I really don't want to be flamed by the die hards here.. but I do fully agree with Har.
I also own all of the SFC games in hope that they would finally come out with a working product, but each one has crashed more than the last.
My enjoyment lasted about a week after probably the 2 dozenth crash of SFC3 and with no 'real' patch in sight and the beta patch only partially fixing things (and I was still crashing at about the same rate), I just tossed in the towel and gave up on Taldren.
<snip>
Well i only found out the sad news just today about the demise of Taldren.
Perhaps some of you will recall that I was somwwhat active on the original boards, and i have to admit i more than once vented my spleen on Erik Bethke about customer service and loyalty. I will not rehash those times seems its like pouring gas on the fire. What i would like to mention is the very first post on this thread, and how it desribed me directly. I never much cared about the SFB vs. SFC debate (even though ive been an SFB player for 20+ years) . I know now that Taldrens hand was forced regards to the early release of SFC2, though i do think it was somewhat duplicitous of both the Publisher and the Designer to let the gamers know only after it hit the shelves.
Nevertheless i shall miss Erik and the Gang. To thier credit they faced up to the ire of the fans and customers and did so professionally at all times. I personally hope they will return to go on with SFC but my heart says that that period in thier lives has come to end permanantly. And i always will smile when i saw some of the most amazing (and outrageous ;D ;D) threads that i was lucky enough to be a part of that community even in a small way.
That also being said , i dont play to much SFC anymore, but even now i still have the vision of a an elegant Federation Comman Cruiser gliding through space perapring for and engagement. And i pull out my copy of SFC2 and load her up. Im looking forward to being back here
Hyp
> Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...
If your refering to me, I was keeping tabs on nwn almost 2 yrs before it came out.
> 1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...
thats a nick picking issue that what, a handful of people ad and was addressed in the first or second patch.
> 2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...
ati driver issue, blame ati
> 3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...
again a small group of people, and was addressed in short time via a patch to turn off securerom
> 4) OS problems of all sorts...
I dont recall any 'os problems' details please?
> In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...
Thats quite a exeragation. While there were bugs, as expected the game was PLAYABLE from start to finish out of the box. Server was a bit unstable but by the first or second patch got much better. And I might add by the time the 6 month period of its release rolled around 3 or 4 major patches were released.
> Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...
So thats get-out-of-jail card for taldren? I dont think thats any reason to not hold them accountable and shift all the blame to someone else. I find it humorous reading some of these posts that taldren can do no wrong and the entire world was against them apparently... Not stating your posts like that but a general observation.
> Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...
One could say the same about your comments. If you want to nit pick then yes you'll find issues in every pc game launch, nwn or otherwise. That wasnt my issue as thats expected. The point you made about nwn were, as a whole very minor. It shipped with EVERY major componet promised and worked out of the box. Neither can be said about the sfc series.
54) Photon Proximity hit chances changes as follows: 9-12(83%), 13-30(66.7%) and 31-55(33.3% NO Change)
> Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...
If your refering to me, I was keeping tabs on nwn almost 2 yrs before it came out.
> 1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...
thats a nick picking issue that what, a handful of people ad and was addressed in the first or second patch.
> 2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...
ati driver issue, blame ati
> 3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...
again a small group of people, and was addressed in short time via a patch to turn off securerom
> 4) OS problems of all sorts...
I dont recall any 'os problems' details please?
> In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...
Thats quite a exeragation. While there were bugs, as expected the game was PLAYABLE from start to finish out of the box. Server was a bit unstable but by the first or second patch got much better. And I might add by the time the 6 month period of its release rolled around 3 or 4 major patches were released.
> Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...
So thats get-out-of-jail card for taldren? I dont think thats any reason to not hold them accountable and shift all the blame to someone else. I find it humorous reading some of these posts that taldren can do no wrong and the entire world was against them apparently... Not stating your posts like that but a general observation.
> Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...
One could say the same about your comments. If you want to nit pick then yes you'll find issues in every pc game launch, nwn or otherwise. That wasnt my issue as thats expected. The point you made about nwn were, as a whole very minor. It shipped with EVERY major componet promised and worked out of the box. Neither can be said about the sfc series.
So basicly...
A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...
A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...
So basicly...
A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...
A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...
I already said I didnt buy or play OP so your point is moot.
Lets talk about sfc2 proper and how it still crashes and has issues.
All that shows me is they put more effort into a expansion to make more money off of the people then fix their existing products.
The following thought occured to me regarding our earlier comparison of D&D/NWN and SFB/SFC:
...in D&D much was open to interpretation and was entirely at the discretion of the DM, in SFB there was no leeway in the rules... what I'm getting at is that both gaming systems had 300+ pages of rules but in SFB there is no DM... so how do you really know that NWN follows the rules of D&D to the letter? With SFB the unyeilding rules (and players who know them like the back of their hand) would still make for a more challenging development project... it is really obvious to us when the game goes against the established parameters of SFB...just a thought. (Also, please note that most folks here are die hard Taldren fans, if you don't understand why, that's OK)
The following thought occured to me regarding our earlier comparison of D&D/NWN and SFB/SFC:
...in D&D much was open to interpretation and was entirely at the discretion of the DM, in SFB there was no leeway in the rules... what I'm getting at is that both gaming systems had 300+ pages of rules but in SFB there is no DM... so how do you really know that NWN follows the rules of D&D to the letter? With SFB the unyeilding rules (and players who know them like the back of their hand) would still make for a more challenging development project... it is really obvious to us when the game goes against the established parameters of SFB...just a thought. (Also, please note that most folks here are die hard Taldren fans, if you don't understand why, that's OK)
So basicly...
A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...
A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...
So basicly...
A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...
A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...
So, what orientation is it if you:
See it as a sign of failure... but having the commitment to eventually fix so much? ;)
And as far as harping on the past goes, the thread is called "A final thought on Taldren" a company that no longer exists in America, therefore there is only the past to discuss. If it's an issue for some, perhaps those people should just pass on by this thread and go to a different one more to their liking? ;)
Hmm, some people apparantly weren't around for the release of NWN...
1) The OS uninstallation bug...not many had it...but then those that did...
2) The problems it had with a few 3d cards...
3) The problems it had in not running period off of certain CDRoms...
4) OS problems of all sorts...
In fact, NWN was a disaster upon release...
Bioware just had more power to convince atari to let up on the CD protections (a massive cause of many of the problems), and more power to patch than Taldren did for SFC in general...
Nice post...but from one gamer to another...be fair...
SFC 2 might be comparable to the NWN launch...maybe...but I haven't seen that many releases as bad as the original release of NWN...luckily Bioware worked fast and furious...without sleep...for many a day...
And Atari was at least smart enough (after being complete idiots with the copyprotection schemes...which they STILL are stupid about...and I still hold they only hurt legit customers) and scared enough of the power Bioware wielded, to at least acquiesce to Bioware's demands in some areas. (on the otherhand, another company that made a D&D game with Atari, Trioka wasn't as fortunate, and not only had the Copy protection problems, but also had Atari cut whole chunks out of the game code (as if it wouldn't cause problems) as well as had demands from hasbro to cut other portions of the game and code out... (as if Atari and Hasbro thought cutting portions of the coding out wouldn't cause any problems, talk about stupid execs).
Anyways...just to refresh your memory on the release of NWN...
I love how you guys, especially Crim, have absolutely no concept of an objective analysis of anything. It's always some sort of personal attack on you if something someone says disagrees with your personal views. And that the automatic assumption is that criticism somehow means disdain by the critic and let's show the critic the door because he must hate the game anyway.
<snip>
. I don't think Harlequin is fault-finding in any respect, merely objective and demanding of high standards. No crime there.
Bah! I read the whole thing. You all just want to paint him with the traitor brush because he has an opinion you don't agree with.
Bah! I read the whole thing. You all just want to paint him with the traitor brush because he has an opinion you don't agree with.
Bah! I read the whole thing. You all just want to paint him with the traitor brush because he has an opinion you don't agree with.
Traitor brush,...?
No.
In fact I'm being quite civil about the whole thing.
In my opinion, Harlequin is not being reasonable.
The original SFC II: EAW was shipped with an incomplete "multi-player" function?
Right?
D2, meaning "Dynaverse 2: ".... right?
If so, Taldren patched it right.
Additionally along came SFC: OP.
SFC: OP had a "Dynaverse" thing did it not?
Take care, :)
GeneralWolfe
So basicly...
A negatively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of failure....for even having to fix so much...
A positively oriented personality will see these lists as a sign of success...for having the commitment to even fix so much...
So, what orientation is it if you:
See it as a sign of failure... but having the commitment to eventually fix so much? ;)
And as far as harping on the past goes, the thread is called "A final thought on Taldren" a company that no longer exists in America, therefore there is only the past to discuss. If it's an issue for some, perhaps those people should just pass on by this thread and go to a different one more to their liking? ;)
Taldren is still around only in South Korea it is no longer an American Company.Taldren may start their forums up again sometime in the future.I know a little more than you for the reason of the California offices closing down but I won't say untill the certain source tell you himself.
There are still a lot of small ones up here though.Taldren is still around only in South Korea it is no longer an American Company.Taldren may start their forums up again sometime in the future.I know a little more than you for the reason of the California offices closing down but I won't say untill the certain source tell you himself.
Age I thought those reasons were given. They no longer had any money to operate with. They were subcontracted to help DEV Black 9 and got into a squabble witht he publisher who reneged on paying them cancellation monies or penalties.
Also Eric posted in the private forum that he really didn't feel there was much room left for small developers anymore in the states. Seems to be a probable statement considering the same words were used by the CEO of Sir-Tech a few years ago.
The big boys are running the table right now.
My own opinion on the matter (not that anyone cares I'm sure but it's late and I'm bored ;D) is that Taldren was among the better half of game developers by a fair margin. Certainly others are more outstanding (it did take quite a while to get to those final patches and there were some serious bugs in the initial releases) but far more were worse, much worse in many cases. Taldren at least stuck by the community by continuing to work on patches and tweaking balance far past what any person could reasonable expect of a Game developer.
As far as the arguments that everyone's attacking Harlequin just because he is professing a view that is critical of Taldren, I don't think so. Oh there is certainly disagreement with his view but I think some of Harlequins statements have rubbed people the wrong way, in particular I think Harlequins comparison of SFC to NWN and his subsequent dismissal of Dash Jones rejoinder that NWN had it's own quite serious problems on it's debut is really why many are taking his views on Taldren with a grain of salt. Especially his dismissal of the problems NWN had by arguing that they were only minor and affected a few people. Using similiar logic I could argue that the fact that most people who bought the game primarily played singleplayer(myself included) so the problems affecting the multiplayer side and the broken D2(a few thousand players, a minority compared to the number of sold copies) aren't that important. I'm sure most would think that to be completely silly of me to do so however. Also Harlequins statement to the effect that Bioware has always delivered in the end appears to be hypocritical to many posters who feel the same way about Taldren who did after all patch both EAW and OP to a very high state of polish. I'm sure Harlequin didn't have any ulterior motives other wanting to state his position and he has every right to do so, it's just some disagree with said position and they should be just as free to state their position and seek to debate the issues they disagree with in a calm manner with Harlequin.
I don't know how many games the previous posters have purchased and played. I have a great number of games from almost as many developers. So I have quite a few experiences with seeing how the industry deals with after-release support. From my own experiences I have seen both the heights and the depths which this support can reach. Almost no game is ever released without at least of few bugs or balance issues of some type, it's just to hard to catch them all or test every possible combo of variables. In some games though they come really close and the game is quite playable, most people playing it will never notice in any problems. Other games are unplayable in the initial release and won't even work till the developer delivers the first patch or third or fourth(BC3000AD anyone?). While many view this delivery of shoddy products to be criminal and compare it to other industries where shoddy products can get the company sued, this really isn't the same for most software developers (much less game developers). This is due to the fact that for the most part shoddy software is just a nuisance and not a potentially life threatening flaw like sub-standard wiring in a building or tires that easily fall apart.
Just to give examples of my two extremes, Blizzard has a very good reputation for good solid games and justly so for the most part (though this may be changing of late due to internal issues). You can pick any one of their games and find it to be quite playable and have few problems right after install without having to go download a patch. Other worthy mentions gamewise are Total Annihilation which is also playable and the developer Cavedog released quite a few patches that added additional content to an already good game, as well as Half-life which also has a good history of strong support from it's developer. For especially bad examples, take a peak at the initial start of the Battlecruiser series by he who shall not be named, talk about shoddy games. Or another game called "Pirates of the Caribbean", this game was not only renamed by the publisher but also forced out 4-6 months before the developer wanted to release it just to coincide with the movie release. Many of the original content had to be scrapped and a new main story written at the last minute to have movie tie-ins. It was so hastily converted that it still had artifacts and artwork shipped on the release that was from what the game was originally that wasn't even used by the current game not to mention being buggy as hell. As for after release support, the publisher not only didn't allow a patch to be released but also shut down the forums for the game on their site a few weeks before the game shipped. The developer (based in Russia) had to resort to releasing a "unofficial mod" for the Russian version just to try to fix the game over there. Only the fact that the game has proved to be highly moddable and that the modders are able to fix many of the bugs themselves has saved the game from suffering an instant death on arrival.
So really, Taldren was not by any stretch that bad when it came to supporting it's games. While it might have been preferrable to have received the patches in a more timely fashion and for less bugs to have been present in the initial releases of it's games, I cannot find it in my heart to condemn them when they worked so hard to fix those issues and continued working when many other developers would have long since stopped. For that I must thank them instead, for turning what, for me at least, was an OK game into a great game and a potential waste into a cherished possesion. ( I'm SO going to be labled a fanboy for this sentence ;D )
OK, now that I'm done waxing poetic, I hope you all enjoyed my little essay. :P
Edited because I forgot to use the spell checker. :-[
My own opinion on the matter (not that anyone cares I'm sure but it's late and I'm bored ;D) is that Taldren was among the better half of game developers by a fair margin. Certainly others are more outstanding (it did take quite a while to get to those final patches and there were some serious bugs in the initial releases) but far more were worse, much worse in many cases. Taldren at least stuck by the community by continuing to work on patches and tweaking balance far past what any person could reasonable expect of a Game developer.
As far as the arguments that everyone's attacking Harlequin just because he is professing a view that is critical of Taldren, I don't think so. Oh there is certainly disagreement with his view but I think some of Harlequins statements have rubbed people the wrong way, in particular I think Harlequins comparison of SFC to NWN and his subsequent dismissal of Dash Jones rejoinder that NWN had it's own quite serious problems on it's debut is really why many are taking his views on Taldren with a grain of salt. Especially his dismissal of the problems NWN had by arguing that they were only minor and affected a few people. Using similiar logic I could argue that the fact that most people who bought the game primarily played singleplayer(myself included) so the problems affecting the multiplayer side and the broken D2(a few thousand players, a minority compared to the number of sold copies) aren't that important. I'm sure most would think that to be completely silly of me to do so however. Also Harlequins statement to the effect that Bioware has always delivered in the end appears to be hypocritical to many posters who feel the same way about Taldren who did after all patch both EAW and OP to a very high state of polish. I'm sure Harlequin didn't have any ulterior motives other wanting to state his position and he has every right to do so, it's just some disagree with said position and they should be just as free to state their position and seek to debate the issues they disagree with in a calm manner with Harlequin.
I don't know how many games the previous posters have purchased and played. I have a great number of games from almost as many developers. So I have quite a few experiences with seeing how the industry deals with after-release support. From my own experiences I have seen both the heights and the depths which this support can reach. Almost no game is ever released without at least of few bugs or balance issues of some type, it's just to hard to catch them all or test every possible combo of variables. In some games though they come really close and the game is quite playable, most people playing it will never notice in any problems. Other games are unplayable in the initial release and won't even work till the developer delivers the first patch or third or fourth(BC3000AD anyone?). While many view this delivery of shoddy products to be criminal and compare it to other industries where shoddy products can get the company sued, this really isn't the same for most software developers (much less game developers). This is due to the fact that for the most part shoddy software is just a nuisance and not a potentially life threatening flaw like sub-standard wiring in a building or tires that easily fall apart.
Just to give examples of my two extremes, Blizzard has a very good reputation for good solid games and justly so for the most part (though this may be changing of late due to internal issues). You can pick any one of their games and find it to be quite playable and have few problems right after install without having to go download a patch. Other worthy mentions gamewise are Total Annihilation which is also playable and the developer Cavedog released quite a few patches that added additional content to an already good game, as well as Half-life which also has a good history of strong support from it's developer. For especially bad examples, take a peak at the initial start of the Battlecruiser series by he who shall not be named, talk about shoddy games. Or another game called "Pirates of the Caribbean", this game was not only renamed by the publisher but also forced out 4-6 months before the developer wanted to release it just to coincide with the movie release. Many of the original content had to be scrapped and a new main story written at the last minute to have movie tie-ins. It was so hastily converted that it still had artifacts and artwork shipped on the release that was from what the game was originally that wasn't even used by the current game not to mention being buggy as hell. As for after release support, the publisher not only didn't allow a patch to be released but also shut down the forums for the game on their site a few weeks before the game shipped. The developer (based in Russia) had to resort to releasing a "unofficial mod" for the Russian version just to try to fix the game over there. Only the fact that the game has proved to be highly moddable and that the modders are able to fix many of the bugs themselves has saved the game from suffering an instant death on arrival.
So really, Taldren was not by any stretch that bad when it came to supporting it's games. While it might have been preferrable to have received the patches in a more timely fashion and for less bugs to have been present in the initial releases of it's games, I cannot find it in my heart to condemn them when they worked so hard to fix those issues and continued working when many other developers would have long since stopped. For that I must thank them instead, for turning what, for me at least, was an OK game into a great game and a potential waste into a cherished possesion. ( I'm SO going to be labled a fanboy for this sentence ;D )
OK, now that I'm done waxing poetic, I hope you all enjoyed my little essay. :P
Edited because I forgot to use the spell checker. :-[
....
So Harlequin speaks the truth. If one doesn't like the truth it's their choice to ignore it; close your eyes and tap your heels together three times (Presto! He is now a negative personality!)...negativity exists as well as positive things. And sometimes they are imbalanced. Sometimes it's good and proper to be pissed off. There were lessons to be learned from what happened at taldren and SFC2. They should not be ignored. Taldren started as a company that seemed to be confused and lacking in programming talent to interpet SFC2 from SFC1. Those programmers learned their trade over time but in this business "there is a tide in the affairs of men"...and it was too late.
...
Taldren rewrote their game engine three times. Thats is the fact. Deny it if you will or better yet just miss the point...that is fashionable. If you don't want to be fashionable just go back and reread Harlequin's post.
This is a discussision board so we should be able to put are opinions up for discussion, just realizing that those opinions WILL be discussed with by others and not always agreed with. When you get down to it, that's part of the fun.
Taldren rewrote their game engine three times. Thats is the fact. Deny it if you will or better yet just miss the point...that is fashionable. If you don't want to be fashionable just go back and reread Harlequin's post.
Hmm, somehow I missed this the first and second time reading through the posts. Which now that I think about it, isn't surprising, it was 5:00 in the morning when I read them. :)
What do you mean by this? Is the rewriting of their Engine somehow indicative of failure? I certainly don't see it that way since as I said, I've never had any serious problems with the game (other than that memory leak after playing the singleplayer campaigns for a while but they fixed that pretty quick, patch 2005 I think, so it wasn't a big deal for me). A lot of game developers (if not most) update/add-features/change their game engines between games.
Harlequins point is that Taldren failed for delivering buggy and poorly implemented games, dishonest business practices, and taking forever to fix their games and so their closing of their offices should not have come to a surprise to anyone. I disagree in that in MY experience I did not find those games poorly implemented, or that they took forever to patch their games to a smooth finish (after they patched the memory leak I stopped checking for new patches for at least a year, perhaps longer, when I did check they were up to 2030), or that they were terribly buggy, or even that Taldren had behaved especially dishonest, in MY experience being the keywords.
However I'm sure others have had different experiences which will have colored their opinions differently from mine. Each experience is undoubtedly unique. "Facts" can be put forward all day long but ultimately most of those "facts" are open to interpretation. This is a discussision board so we should be able to put our opinions up for discussion, just realizing that those opinions WILL be discussed with by others and not always agreed with. When you get down to it, that's part of the fun. :)
Edited for some obvious spelling and grammer errors :-[
I have more imagination than anyone here...
<snip>
Well obviously we have two different ideas as to what constitutes a serious flaw. However when someone advertises that a certain feature is to be included in a game, or anything else for that matter, and it is not there when people go to buy it...yes...I would consider that major enough for me to be talking to my lawyers and scrambling around to get it fixed or included. I think it was serious because almost every pre-release review or advertisement of the game cited it as a major feature of the game. But you stated you didn't care to play the Dyna so I suppose you won't concede that was a major problem with the game.
I have nothing bad to say about Taldren.
SFC is the soul reason I play on-line games, starting back at the beginning of SFC1.
Starfleet Command is nothing more than an expired title, born based upon SFB and now dying during SFC3.
Its not the game, its not the developers, its simply the nature of the beast.
Welcome to a new era MMORPG and Playstation.
Taldren, I am sorry to see you go, the only thing I feel held you back was probably the restrictions set by Paramount, certainly not by lack of vision.
I think someone in here said it best, "The big boys have taken over" and its a shame, because brilliant concepts and ideas are going to be lost in favor of mass production.
We are probably witnessing the end of the sleeper game...
I have nothing bad to say about Taldren.What is MMORPG? If Paramount would let PC game rental at their Blockbuster stores this would help the PC game market out.
SFC is the soul reason I play on-line games, starting back at the beginning of SFC1.
Starfleet Command is nothing more than an expired title, born based upon SFB and now dying during SFC3.
Its not the game, its not the developers, its simply the nature of the beast.
Welcome to a new era MMORPG and Playstation.
Taldren, I am sorry to see you go, the only thing I feel held you back was probably the restrictions set by Paramount, certainly not by lack of vision.
I think someone in here said it best, "The big boys have taken over" and its a shame, because brilliant concepts and ideas are going to be lost in favor of mass production.
We are probably witnessing the end of the sleeper game...
...the black rectangle box in the DV was supposed to be the ad server out put...
We as a community will go where no one has gone before- has a nice ring to it eh
Nice to see another Rog fan... 8)
I guess if we'd had that kind of player capacity, I'd certainly prefer ads to pay to play. I wasn't really thinking of the possibility of greater server capacity. (WON api/ Openskies SDK..?)QuoteWe as a community will go where no one has gone before- has a nice ring to it eh
Indeed Sir, it does indeed...
Yeah Bonk, thats what I though at first, as I thought about it for awhile, then it made perfect sense (expressed in dollars and cents, pounds shillings and pence)
$$$ generated by ads needed to fund Server Time and Bandwidth, plus provided revenue stream to fund further content creation (ie full time scripting team to keep things lively) and provide the tools to free themselves as "content creators and providers" from the shackles that binds them to idiotic publishers, which an example company starts with the letter A...
I feel that watching ads flick by is a small price to pay for 1k+ capacity server for free. This underlying philosophy is resonant to me. I have a pretty good idea of what was happening behind closed doors from rather shocking revelations on ToastyO forums.
And now....Dancing spam!:spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: THE FINAL THOUGHT THAT NEVER ENDS, IT JUST GOES ON AND ON MY FRIENDS! :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam:
I like Bioware also. htey also Had More Money in there Budget. How Many Patches have they for Free?
Stephen
I like Bioware also. htey also Had More Money in there Budget. How Many Patches have they for Free?
Stephen
They MIGHT have we will never know, those numbers are kept hidden from the general public. But certainly there was adversity. bio switching publishers from interplay to atari. Tho I will agree taldren had a fair amount of rangling to do themsevles, with all the licence issues of sfb/sfc
All there patches are free, As I am pretty sure most all other game devs are as well I am not sure your point..?