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Taldrenites => Starfleet Command Models => Topic started by: Scottish Andy on January 13, 2007, 02:46:12 pm

Title: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 13, 2007, 02:46:12 pm

Hi all,

I was wondering if someone might do me a favour. The USS Centaur from DS9 was made from Excelsior and Miranda model kit pieces. Almost everyone has it scaled to the Excelsior components. I happen to be awkward and want them scaled to the Miranda components.

My reasons are long and varied, it's better not to ask, as I'll actually tell you.

I was hoping some nice modeller would rescale LC Amaral's beautiful "Centaur light cruiser", available on Battleclinic on this page:

http://www.battleclinic.com/docks/dock.php?id=54

to a scale length of 210m, which is how long the Centaur would be with her Photon Pod and Bridge taken directly from a Miranda.

Any chance of this happening? Many thanks and appreciations sent to those who may want to humour mt madness.  :D

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Sapharite on January 14, 2007, 06:07:34 am

My dear Scottish Andy - one remark USS Centaur was not the Apollo class. :) The Apollo class was the vessel usually described as Ambassador with the hull configuration of Nebula class :) What I mean is a Nebulish Ambassador :)

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 14, 2007, 09:58:02 am

Apollo Class
(http://www.trekmania.net/art/Apollo_mk4.jpg)

IIRC LC Amaral included this is his Ambassador Pack.

I can see how you came up with the Centaur being the Apollo Class  ::)

http://www.btinternet.com/~ady1971/apollo.html

Quote

Author's Notes:

The designation Apollo class for this particular Star Trek model is conjecture from the era that the model is from and the obvious design gap. U.S.S. Centaur, as shown in DS9 episode 'A Time To Stand' featured this kit-bash of the Excelsior and Miranda class models. The DS9 Technical Manual did not give a starship class designation, but many fans including Nick and myself both consider this to be the Apollo class that have starship registries in the 11000-range. Starships from this class include: Achilles, Ajax, Clement, Gage, T'Pau and Agamemnon. Many names are taken from mythology which, in conjunction with the registry numbers from around the Excelsior period, make the Centaur as NCC 43042 compelling as Apollo class.

If they had done research they would have seen several different designs designated as the Apollo Class...

An Excelsior  :huh:
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/ships/TNG/article/122920.html

The Ambie/Nebula Version.....
http://www.trekmania.net/art/apollo_class.htm

A TOS Connie ...........
http://users.pandora.be/marleen.geyselings/constitution.html

A Phase II Prototype............
http://captainmike.org/Galactopedia/a4.html

An ENT era ship ............
http://startrekspecops.bravehost.com/encyclopaedia.html#a

A Vulcan Design ...........
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/cruiser_apollo1.jpg

A Connie /Excel Varient .........
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/cruiser_apollo2.jpg

An Ambie/Miranda Varient.....
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/tacticalcruiser_apollo_prot.jpg

And an Excelsior/Connie Frankenship............
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/galexploration_apollo.jpg

Useless Info  ;D

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 14, 2007, 03:19:23 pm

Thanks for the replies, Guys. I am aware of the Nebula-configuration Ambassador-style ship allocated to the Apollo class, but for my corner of the Star Trek Universe, it just doesn't fly. I take that to be the Rennaisance class. The NCC numbers for the Apollos are in the 11xxx and 12xxx series, which doesn't fit in with my registry number system.

That aside, anyone willing to re-size LC Amaral's Centaur for me? I don't know what's involved in modelling so I don't know if this is an easy task or not, but I have nothing, and I'd really appreciate this.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 14, 2007, 04:29:42 pm

Is that my Knox Class  in your sig Scottish Andy ?  ;D

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 14, 2007, 05:06:54 pm

Yup, using it as my NEC. I'd use t he Daran, without the megaphasers--but there isn't one. :D

Since I'm displaying your wares, care to resize that ship for me? Please?

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 14, 2007, 10:06:09 pm

Quote from: Scottish Andy on January 14, 2007, 05:06:54 pm

Yup, using it as my NEC. I'd use t he Daran, without the megaphasers--but there isn't one. :D

Since I'm displaying your wares, care to resize that ship for me? Please?

There's a Daran on the way  ;) Why not use Mackies Miranda/Excelsior http://outalance.battleclinic.com/darkcentral/dldir/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=132

The mini is attached

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 15, 2007, 08:25:09 am

Thanks MP, I really do appreciate this. I'll try her out when I get home. Can I safely assume the bitmaps will still go on properly? That is, the smaller model can still use the same bitmaps, and those bitmaps won't be too big for the model now?

I'll also have a looke at the FNisk when I get home. Kinda curious and there's no pic at the DL site.

Thanks again!

P.S. - Just out of curiosity, what size do you think the Centaur should be? If you're willing to discuss it, I can bore you to tears with my rationale for her being 210m long.  ;)

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 15, 2007, 11:47:33 am

Hi Fallen,

I actually discussed this with Adrian Jones of http://www.uss-sheffield.co.uk/ and Bernd Schneider of http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/. Here's what I said in my opening salvo to Bernd.

"Adrian says you are apparently convinced of the greater credibility of the 381m ship length generated by the Excelsior components. I have become convinced (due to my own no doubt peverse need to be awkward, I'm sure *grin*) of the opposite, that the 210m length generated by the Miranda components is the correct one.

It was your own article on this that first made be seriously consider the Centaur type as one worthy of inclusion into my own Star Trek Universe, being the only detailed one I've encountered so far which entertains the smaller size.

I personally cannot get past the Miranda's photon pod. Either I have to make it into a completely different shape--which is impractical as it was very clearly seen on screen--or the pod has to be its original size as mounted on the Miranda class. The fact that the Miranda's bridge and "roll bar" pylons were also used cinches it for me, and the huge green-tinted "windows" on her saucer which would stretch for decks on an Excelsior-sized saucer is what helped me convince Adrian of my position. The small size does make her rather awkward for internal space, but it suits her role as observed on the show itself: a short-range escort type.

The pod itself is clearly a photon pod, and since the tubes are exactly the same size in relation to the pod itself, either it simply is an actual Miranda photon pod, or the Excelsior-scaled ship has four huge ports more suited to launching shuttles than torpedoes.

This picture shows a JHAS at fairly close range to a Galaxy-class for size comparison:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:USS_Odyssey_firing_phasers.jpg

This site has a pretty accurate model built, including the large saucer windows, which clearly implies a smaller ship even though the model builder himself favours the longer ship:
http://msfm.seryan.com/stephen_l/usscentaur.htm

And this site is my main visual argument for a smaller Centaur:
http://www.shiporama.org/ds9premr.htm

If you look at the sequence of pictures, second down on the left shows the JHAS flying at extremely close range past the Centaur, and her saucer is definitely not even twice the size of the Bug ship.

Since their dimensions are roughly similar, and the bug ship is roughly as long as it is wide, it would make the saucer some 100m across, and thus the length of the Centaur would be around the 200m mark.

From the battle sequence it seems far more likely that the VFX crew were working from the assumption of a smaller ship."

Subsequent emails forwarded counter arguments and counter-counter reponses.

"Another argument for the "small ship" is her weapons. In the "Battle" pic, the Centaur fires from the very tip of her saucer, from three of those copper bumps on the physical model. If this was a full-sized Excelsior saucer, why not fire from any of the Excelsior's standard phaser banks? My own explanation of the bumps is, rather than bring triple turrets they are a primitive phaser array, predating the "proper" ones of the Ambassador."

"Another model shows an excellent solution for the smaller ship; the "shuttlebay" on the top of the saucer in front of the bridge--only called a shuttlebay because it is the rear shuttlebay of the same Excelsior model used for the saucer--is never actually seen on the model on screen where they concentrate on the underside of the Centaur. However, this model--the USS Shaffer--has this copper-painted door as a blue navigational deflector instead, and I think it works very well."

<will insert a link to the Shaffer later, when I can find it>

"However, with these ships it is strictly on a case by case basis. General rules do not apply to the kitbashes. The Trident design, for example. I am curiously drawn to this ship as displayed on your site. It is obviously Excelsior-sized, since only some re-arranged pylons are from another model and can easily be dismissed.
Had the Centaur's nacelles been standard Excelsior ones, I would have little interest in the ship and we wouldn't be having this discussion because it would be too obviously assigned Excelsior-scaling, resulting in the same problem as with the Shelley.

The rather horrific Raging Queen/Shelley is something else, but I hadn't factored it in when considering my Centaur arguments. The two cases are distinct, but most definitely related. Since the Excelsior saucer and secondary hull are very prominent, I too would have said they have to be Excelsior-scaled, but that does  make the Miranda nacelles ridiculously large. By your own reasoning, the ships scaled to Constitution size have the Excelsior saucer a bare 6m shorter than a 210m Centaur. If the figures can be blurred slightly, we could have a Shelley of around 180m with a saucer the same size as the Centaur. The smaller Centaur actually sets a precedence for the Constitution-scaled Shelley.

However, my own reasoning for the smaller Centaur was directly linked to the massive alterations to standard Excelsior components: the nacelles are no longer recognisable as Excelsior nacelles, the bridge is not an Excelsior one, the "shuttlebay" addition, and the modifcations to the saucer itself all combined to erode the credibility of the only truly Excelsior-scaled component--the disk of the saucer. I belive that makes the case for a smaller Centaur more compelling. Lots of "special circumstances."

if you care, let me know what you think of all that.  ;D

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 15, 2007, 12:41:11 pm

I have to agree with the Centaur Length: approx. 381m. The Miranda'esque torpedo bay or bridge to me, has no bearing in the overall size.

To address some of the other statements ..........

Quote

"Another argument for the "small ship" is her weapons. In the "Battle" pic, the Centaur fires from the very tip of her saucer, from three of those copper bumps on the physical model. If this was a full-sized Excelsior saucer, why not fire from any of the Excelsior's standard phaser banks?

Put simply it could be a lack of power. with no secondary hull, the space available on the saucer would be vastly more limited and a smaller warp core would mean less power. But also notice on the actual model, the centaur has standard excelsior weapon banks, as well as groups of those 3 weapons around the entire saucer edge. It could be they serve the same purpose as the Miranda's mega phasers. Allowing the Centaur to us it's standard arrays for defense and the others for attack.

www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/ds9tm/uss_centaur_top.jpg (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/ds9tm/uss_centaur_top.jpg)

The issues of scale and other quirks such as Constitution nacelles on the Raging Queen and Curry designs..Simply put is a lack of attention to detail by those who made the show, and production costs. (BTW I do scale down the nacelles to actualy connie size on both those designs)

I see the centaur in the same relationship to the excelsior, as the miranda is to the connie. In the end it all comnes down to a personal choice in each persons own Trek Universe  ;)

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 15, 2007, 10:35:46 pm

Here are my supporting pictures. I have permission from the photograph-takers to display the Shaffer.

The deck layout of my 210m Centaur.
(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/ApolloDecks-Side-x5.jpg)

The side shot of the actual model seen on screen, displaying her standard Miranda-sized bridge.
(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/USS Centaur DS9 Model - Side.jpg)

The top shot of the actual model seen on screen, displaying her really large windows (in green to floresce properly on Green-screen). Note that they'd make perfect sense as "skylight"-style paired windows in individual quarters.
(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/USS Centaur DS9 Model - Top.jpg)

A fan-built model showing the large windows on the saucer roof.
(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/USS Centaur Model-01.jpg)

Another fan-built model showing the large windows on the saucer roof. If these were on a standard Excelsior saucer, they'd stretch for about ten meters or so. Waaaay too large.
(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/USS Centaur Model-02.jpg)

Three pics of another fan-built Centaur, used with permission--so don't re-use them without getting permission too! These show the "shuttlebay doors" in front of the bridge as a nav deflector, which I think looks great.
(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/USS Shaffer-01.jpg)

(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/USS Shaffer-02.jpg)

(http://www.starbase23.net/cgi-bin/USS Shaffer-03.jpg)

Warrior, I like your SCT construction idea. Mind if I use that in my stories? It has possibilities for the TNG era...

MP, that was my point exactly. Why, if she has standard phaser banks, does the beam come from the "3 copper balls" on the underside of the saucer as phasers? We all know TNG doesn't use Ph-3-style defensive phasers. In TNG, phasers are phasers. I've tried out your Mini_Centaur, MP and she looks great. Thank you very much for that. However, she is still a little bigger than the Mirandas I have (from Moonraker). I have noticed that your Fed Starbases are really huge! Would you be able to scrunch the Mini_Centaur down further, or is your program slightly off compared to the other modellers whose creations I have?

Are we having fun yet?  ;D

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 15, 2007, 11:55:07 pm

Quote

MP, that was my point exactly. Why, if she has standard phaser banks, does the beam come from the "3 copper balls" on the underside of the saucer as phasers? We all know TNG doesn't use Ph-3-style defensive phasers. In TNG, phasers are phasers.

Until ST II phasers were turrets on the saucer not mega phasers on a rollbar so anything is plausible. Though seen in TNG it's a Late TMP or very early TNG design. Once again I blame this all on a lack of detail. I don't think the SFX guys payed attention to the weapon ponts on the centaur and even some of the Mirandas fire from the wrong spots  :'(

 

Quote

I've tried out your Mini_Centaur, MP and she looks great. Thank you very much for that. However, she is still a little bigger than the Mirandas I have (from Moonraker).

I used p81's for scale (dude ya need to update ships, that Miranda is ancient)

Quote

I have noticed that your Fed Starbases are really huge!

Of course they are, I like being to fly even my capital ships into and through them  ;D


Would you be able to scrunch the Mini_Centaur down further, or is your program slightly off compared to the other modellers whose creations I have?

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Rod ONeal on January 16, 2007, 02:04:55 am

Scottish Andy, In case you aren't aware of it there's a file in the model's directory called "model.siz" that sizes the models ingame. MP can resize all he wants to, but if this file has the model a certain size it'll override his efforts.

Just my .02 on the scale debate, I know that the torp pod is too small (if assumed to be taken straight off of the Miranda) for the 381 meter length of the model, but I find it hard to accept that a shipbash of Excelsior parts would end up smaller than the similar design made from Connie parts, the Miranda, which is 243 meters. I think that given the approximate 1.5/1 scale of the Excelsior to the Connie that 381mtrs. is about right. The multiple sizes of similar major components (IE saucers) from ship to ship is just too complicated an explanation for me, sorry. Easier to resize the pod to fit the ship than resize the ship to fit the pod. I realize that it's not, but is in reality the same module transplanted.  As far as that goes it's just as MP says, designers who are more concerned with budget than accuracy. I'd like to see a logical explanation that'd explain that last assumption away. lol ;) 

You can find size discrepancies in the same movie for the same ship. The Klingon Bird o' Prey in ST3 is at least 3 different sizes ranging from about 50 meters in the scene where it's sinking in the bay to over 300 meters when it's hovering over the fishing trawler. It figures that they can't get the pod size correct.  

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 16, 2007, 09:40:32 am

Hi all;

MP - Are you saying Moonraker's Miranda is ancient and to the wrong scale? If anything, I found Mooraker's ships to be slightly too large compared to my other models, but they're still pretty good. I got someone's "Miranda Model Pack" from Battleclinic, an they are tiny! Really nice ships, but too small. Also, compared to the Excelsior-class USS Repulse from someone else's Excelsior era fleet packs, your Mini_Centaur is the same length as the Excelsior's nacelles, which I think is about 250m.

Rod, I remember you from before when I was trying to resize MP's bases *grin*. I tried that .siz file approach, and it didn't really seem to work. I don't know if I wasn't doing it right, so could you give me idiot-proof step by step instructions on how to do it right please?
I have an e-copy of the orginal sketched size charts by Andrew Probert, and the Miranda is marked as 765ft, or 233m long. The 243m length is from the Ships of the Star Fleet's Knox and Daran classes, which are 10m longer because even though their hulls are shorter the nacelles are mounted slightly further back than they are on the Miranda.
That same chart has the Oberth at 394ft, or 120m. Unfortunately, that is too small for any reasonable deck structure in the Oberth saucer. I'm fudging that and going with a 150m Oberth.
Also, the reasons I'm having the Centaur at 210m is because I believe her Miranda components are the most credible. Her nacelles are no longer recognisable as Excelsior nacelles (too thin, wrong shape, etc). The Miranda photon pod, bridge and "roll bar" are very evident as exactly what they are. The saucer is so festooned with other parts like very long windows and bizarre phaser emitters and Constellation-style under-saucer protrusions that its credibility as an actual Excelsior saucer is degraded. I see the main section as a 2-deck, scratch-built-for-this-class saucer that happens to resemble an Excelsior saucer instead of an actual Excelsior saucer that has been shrunk to size, as that really would be daft. Look at Pedro's Shiporama in the links above. You'll see the ship doesn't look 4 times the size of a Bug ship, either.
And no, there is no logical explanation for budget and time limitations screwing up spaceship design. :D

Can either of you recommend a good Mranda to DL? I found I preferred Moonrakers to P81's and Atrahasis' ships--though this was a good 5 years ago now. Has P81 made new ones?

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 16, 2007, 10:18:43 am

Quote

MP - Are you saying Moonraker's Miranda is ancient and to the wrong scale?

No, you had stated it was bigger then the Miranda you had, and I was telling ya which model I scaled from. For it's day, that model would have been the best, no doubt. Zambie Zan's Miranda Pack is the latest I can recall, might wanna check them out  ;)

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 16, 2007, 10:31:07 am

Quote from: Fallen_Warrior on January 16, 2007, 10:21:01 am

the Zombie Zan miranda pack has the nicest detailed mirandas scale is differnt compared to others, i still rate the p81 and moonrakers on sheer low poly brilliance but ZZ's deffinatly are my preference of Mirandas

They shouldn't be I used p81's Miranda for scale on those as well  :huh:, if someone could send me s stock SFC II connie and excelsior I can go back make any scale corrections I may need to

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Rod ONeal on January 16, 2007, 02:25:59 pm

Scottish Andy,
Well, you can't be accused of not having it thoroughly thought through and your explanaition is logical enough. Be carefull doing size comparisons though. As noted, ships shrink and grow in relationship to each other (and other things) on screen all of the time.
What's the address for your model's folder in your game?
Mine is:
\assets\models\gawtm\fcl\fcl.mod for instance?

The entry in the models.siz file is

ASSETS\MODELS\GAWTM\FCL\FCL.MOD   7.27

The model.siz file is in the models folder even though I have my models in a subdirectory (gawtm) and that the entries in the file are all capitalized.

If you've got all of that in order then it should work. I've used it to resize the standard Kzinti (oops Mirak  ;)) cruiser, for instance, down to use as a PF with it.

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 17, 2007, 01:25:39 pm

Hi all,

Quote

I got someone's "Miranda Model Pack" from Battleclinic, an they are tiny! Really nice ships, but too small.

MP, I checked out the actual Miranda Pack I DLed from Battleclinic and it is Zombie Zan's. They are really nice ships but they are far too small. When I get home I'll send you the stock SFC Miranda, Constitution and Excelsior models to your profile's email address. I'd like to be able to use these because they are beautiful. If you can resize them (and resize your Mini-Centaur while you're at it), that's be great.

What modelling program do you use? How much did it cost? How long did it take you to leanr how to use it?

Rod, I'll have another look when I get home and test it out. I'll let you know how I get on. Oh, Rod, weren'y you the guy who put together some TMP versions of the SFB Gorn ships? I just played with them for the first time a few days ago, and they were pretty big too. The G-CA was easily Excelsior-sized (1.5x) compared to my Moonraker Romulan K't'inga. I'll try playing with the size settings there too. What size are they supposed to be?

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 17, 2007, 01:46:38 pm

Quote

What modelling program do you use? How much did it cost? How long did it take you to leanr how to use it?

Milkshape 3D. About $40 bucks. Still learning, I can bash but not really model yet. I'll keep checking my mail, thanks for the assist.

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 17, 2007, 07:03:01 pm

Okay Rod, I have the .siz file but only the stock models are there, none of my other models are. It's in this folder:

F:\Games\Starfleet Command II\Assets\MODELS

All my other models are in subfolders, e.g.

F:\Games\Starfleet Command II\Assets\MODELS\Models(TMP) or
F:\Games\Starfleet Command II\Assets\MODELS\Models(TOS).

Now, how do I alter the scale? What are they supposed to be? I tried some of MPs bases, altered the values several times, but in the game they stayed the same size. What was I doing wrong? Here's the line I tried to alter the base scale with, in my .siz fiile:

ASSETS\MODELS\MODELS(TMP)\F-BATS\WarBase.mod   57.00

The stock Mirak starbase above that is set to 78.26. Any advice woulf be greately appreciated!

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 18, 2007, 12:59:13 am

Ok here's you resized mini centaur.............

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Rod ONeal on January 18, 2007, 01:49:27 am

The entries in the .siz file needs to be all caps even if the file names aren't, IIRC. I believe that'll correct your problem. Possibly the parentheses "()" or dash "-" are causing a prob, but I doubt that's it. The file does work though. It's just a matter of getting it nailed down.
You should make a back-up of the original. It's one of the files that's checked for multiplayer.

You were right about the scale of those older Gorn releases. I never scaled them. My bad. They weren't intended to be a final release. I released them because someone requested them. That's not a good excuse though, as I just plain forgot. lol Thanks for pointing it out to me.
They also need brk.mods as well. I'm working on rescaling them as well as doing up the brk.mods now. I'll have 'em really soon (As opposed to the Taldren soon  ;D)

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: Scottish Andy on January 28, 2007, 01:09:25 am

Hi MP,

Did you ever get to resizing ZZ's Miranda Pack?

Title: Re: Apollo-class USS Centaur
Post by: ModelsPlease on January 28, 2007, 01:13:40 am

Nope it's on a long list of things I have to do but it'll be awhile