Print Page - OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Carrie on April 04, 2003, 01:25:35 pm

As long as you're working on the next version of OP+, along with the F-BCV (which I still want an Excelsior model for), I thought I should ask about the K-B11V. Since it uses a K-BB hull, should it not also be using the K-BB UI? I noticed it was using the K-B10V one in game, and wondered if it shouldn't be using the standard B-10/B-11 one. Just another minor nitpick, admittedly.

I love the F-BBV, btw. It's the ship I've been looking for every time I modified an SCS.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Strafer on April 04, 2003, 01:59:46 pm

The reason it has the B10 hull UI is because it's the only Klingon UI that has all the mountpoints necessary for the weapons.
This was from a past request to have all the proper phaser arcs available.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 04, 2003, 02:25:51 pm

The biggest trouble I have with doing shiplist work is just that pair of problems: not enough hardpoints to use all the right arcs, and not enough arcs (though OP at least has more than EAW). Plus, the LWX is broken, so even more ships can't be done "correctly" per SFB. It's just plain silly how many Kzinti/Mirak ships are using the wrong arcs (LWX broken, no forward equivalent of the LWX/RWX pair), and how many Hydrans are hurt because of the broken LWX. Then there are a number of Klingon arcs still not available ...

Oh well, since perfection is unattainable, at least we have OP to get closer to the model.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 04, 2003, 02:42:59 pm

Quote:

As long as you're working on the next version of OP+, along with the F-BCV (which I still want an Excelsior model for), I thought I should ask about the K-B11V. Since it uses a K-BB hull, should it not also be using the K-BB UI? I noticed it was using the K-B10V one in game, and wondered if it shouldn't be using the standard B-10/B-11 one. Just another minor nitpick, admittedly.

I love the F-BBV, btw. It's the ship I've been looking for every time I modified an SCS.

I thought about it.. and decided to leave the BCV alone. A preference of a graphic over another wasn't good enough to make me go and make changes in the shiplist, sorry.

The K-BB UI didn't have as many weapons mounts as the K-B10V UI.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 04, 2003, 02:46:05 pm

Quote:

The biggest trouble I have with doing shiplist work is just that pair of problems: not enough hardpoints to use all the right arcs, and not enough arcs (though OP at least has more than EAW). Plus, the LWX is broken, so even more ships can't be done "correctly" per SFB. It's just plain silly how many Kzinti/Mirak ships are using the wrong arcs (LWX broken, no forward equivalent of the LWX/RWX pair), and how many Hydrans are hurt because of the broken LWX. Then there are a number of Klingon arcs still not available ...

Oh well, since perfection is unattainable, at least we have OP to get closer to the model.

The LWX arc problem has been reported to Taldren.. I'd like to leave it in for now..

.. what other klingon arcs are unavailable? I have requested more arcs myself, and would like to include these arcs if I can.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: CptCastrin on April 04, 2003, 04:50:41 pm

Quote:

Ok..
.. so.. WHAT ships should be marked as "R" then? .. should a complete revision of the shiplist be done for SPECIAL ships and R ships both?

Just to chime in (because I've not been out here for a while):

1) SPECIAL allows the AI to use the ship in a match but not not be availble to players, i.s. they don't show up in the shipyard.
2) the 'R' tag stands for "RESTRICTED" and prevents a ship from showing up in a match or in the shipyard (thus neither AI or players can use them).

Unfortunetly there is no way to make a ship available to just the players (i.e. only show up in the shipyard but never as AI in a match) that I know of.

Note the above is assuming stock missions, with ED missions I can't be sure of the mission matching but the shipyard "rule" is still valid.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 04, 2003, 04:57:35 pm

Well, I'll have to pull out the SSDs and rulebooks. Here are some snippets from the readme for my SFB shiplist (long overdue):

Quote:

Note that Taldren's arcs for many Klingon hulls (including Romulan ships) are significantly different from those in SFB. The RW and LW arcs, for instance, give many of these ships better arcs than they deserve. In some cases, there are ships that do not have as good an arc as they should (FAR and FAL arcs that should fire directly rear from boom phasers, for instance).

(In the SFB Captain's Edition Basic rules, there is more detail about the Klingon hull arcs on p. 33.)

On the B10:

Quote:

Phaser note: the SFC UI does not have enough phaser hardpoints, nor are there the appropriate arcs available even if there were sufficient hardpoints. Therefore, I have followed Taldren's example in assigning the phaser type placement and arcs. Instead of 7 Ph1s, 8 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s, the B10(B) has 9 Ph1s, 6 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s. I've adjusted the phaser arcs on the B11K, but they are still inaccurate due to the restrictions of hardpoints and arc availability.

On the Kzinti/Mirak medium cruisers (also affects a number of other ships of theirs):

Quote:

All medium cruiser variants should have RF/LS and LF/RS arcs on 2 of the Ph1s. Since these arc combinations are not available in SFC, I have made them LS and RS. Though this probably reduces their effectiveness, I have not reduced the BPV of these ships. I chose the LS/RS arcs over Taldren?s FHL/FHR arcs because I feel the loss of rear-firing capability on 2 phasers is worse than the loss of some forward firing coverage overlap.

On the Z-BB hardpoints/arcs:

Quote:

Because there are not enough heavy weapon hardpoints to give the ship 2 FAL and 2 FAR disruptors, I?ve increased the arc on one set of 4 disruptors from FA to FX. This provides extra overlap, but I?ve left the BPV alone since the ship loses some Ph3 and Ph1 arc coverage due to the broken LWX arc and lack of proper side and forward arc combinations. The rear Ph3s and side Ph1s are now LS/RS.

Bases are also affected by insufficient arcs, mainly the LWX problem and the unavailable LS+RF and RS+LF arcs.

There should also be rear versions of the plasma LP and RP swivel arcs.

There are probably more I can't think of at the moment.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 04, 2003, 05:27:18 pm

I decided to test what I have done so far..
.. and it looks promising.

Set-up: Late Era. "ISC War of Pacification" compiled for SFC:OP.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Rod O'neal on April 04, 2003, 10:20:01 pm

[quote

I know, but experience tells me I won't see a soul play SFC:OP if this is done for EAW..
I have to prioritize, and be unfair..

I'm glad you took the time to explain. That makes sense.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 05, 2003, 01:24:47 am

Oh, I meant to mention that there are a LOT of ships affected by missing arcs or insufficient hardpoints. Some of the ones I name above are just particularly notable. There are quite a few small Klingon ships that could use the FAL and FAR arcs that would shoot directly rear.

Plus, I haven't even looked into the plasma races yet, so I'm not sure how bad their arcs and hardpoints are.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 02:03:48 am

Ok. Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to mention all the arcs.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Pestalence on April 05, 2003, 02:18:19 am

just 2 questions...

Why is it that everyone keeps quoting Captains Edition SFB rules and specs when Taldren has stated repeatedly that the SFC series is based on the Doomsday ruleset and specs?

are these two one in the same or different moduals with different rule sets....

and if the rulesets and specs are different, why then not follow the one that the Game designer intended... the Doomsday ruleset?

just currious... thanks

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 02:24:19 am

IMHO, they're one and the same.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Carrie on April 05, 2003, 02:46:37 am

As someone who owns the Captain's edition ruleset, I can vouch:

That IS the doomsday ruleset. It says so right in the basic manual for the Captain's Edition.

Too bad there aren't many SFB players around Sioux Falls, SD. At least I can play SFC online

Come to think of it, I'm probably better at SFC anyways. It automates a lot of things, so I don't have to do a ton of math over it like I do in SFB. I know of people who outright ignore the EW rules, considering them still too complicated. In SFC, it's easy. And makes me wonder about the comment elsethread claiming it was something archaic from a board game, and 'too complicated'. It's super-simplified from the board game.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 11:17:18 am

Quote:

Well, I'll have to pull out the SSDs and rulebooks. Here are some snippets from the readme for my SFB shiplist (long overdue):

Quote:

Note that Taldren's arcs for many Klingon hulls (including Romulan ships) are significantly different from those in SFB. The RW and LW arcs, for instance, give many of these ships better arcs than they deserve. In some cases, there are ships that do not have as good an arc as they should (FAR and FAL arcs that should fire directly rear from boom phasers, for instance).

(In the SFB Captain's Edition Basic rules, there is more detail about the Klingon hull arcs on p. 33.)

The FAL arc with ability to fire down the rear is called FLLX. FAR equivalent: FRRX. (in SFC at least)
As for the Klingon Wing phaser arcs, although the arcs are indeed different, I think they're acceptable.

Quote:

On the B10:
Quote:

Phaser note: the SFC UI does not have enough phaser hardpoints, nor are there the appropriate arcs available even if there were sufficient hardpoints. Therefore, I have followed Taldren's example in assigning the phaser type placement and arcs. Instead of 7 Ph1s, 8 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s, the B10(B) has 9 Ph1s, 6 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s. I've adjusted the phaser arcs on the B11K, but they are still inaccurate due to the restrictions of hardpoints and arc availability.

Ok. Noted. The B10 is inacurate. Any other ships known?

Quote:

On the Kzinti/Mirak medium cruisers (also affects a number of other ships of theirs):

Quote:

All medium cruiser variants should have RF/LS and LF/RS arcs on 2 of the Ph1s. Since these arc combinations are not available in SFC, I have made them LS and RS. Though this probably reduces their effectiveness, I have not reduced the BPV of these ships. I chose the LS/RS arcs over Taldren?s FHL/FHR arcs because I feel the loss of rear-firing capability on 2 phasers is worse than the loss of some forward firing coverage overlap.

I'll pass that along to Taldren.. LSRF / RSLF sound good to you?

Quote:

On the Z-BB hardpoints/arcs:

Quote:

Because there are not enough heavy weapon hardpoints to give the ship 2 FAL and 2 FAR disruptors, I?ve increased the arc on one set of 4 disruptors from FA to FX. This provides extra overlap, but I?ve left the BPV alone since the ship loses some Ph3 and Ph1 arc coverage due to the broken LWX arc and lack of proper side and forward arc combinations. The rear Ph3s and side Ph1s are now LS/RS.

ok. *shrug* .. another ship to fix I guess? Any incorrect ships you know about, pass it along.

Quote:

Bases are also affected by insufficient arcs, mainly the LWX problem and the unavailable LS+RF and RS+LF arcs.
There should also be rear versions of the plasma LP and RP swivel arcs.
There are probably more I can't think of at the moment.

That's ok.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 11:39:17 am

Here are images I posted for Taldren to use as part of my request:

1- LR .. Both L and R at once. This is used in some FireSupport ships with 'broadside' arcs.
2- RLP: The rear-arc relative of LP. LP is not quite FAL.. .. so RLP is not quite RAL.
3: RRP: rear relative of RP.
4- LSRF: LS + RF .. missing arc popular on Kzinti ships.
5- RSLF: RS + LF .. other side.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 05, 2003, 01:28:29 pm

I can't list all the ships I've found errors in (if you can call them errors -- depends on your point of view). Some are significant, like the Z-DNH, which has 4 Ph3s where it should have 4 Ph1s. Others are minor, like ships with the incorrect number of shuttles.

The FAL+rear and FAR+rear don't exist that I've seen. FRRX and FLLX are FRR and FLL with rear, not FAR and FAL. Also, since some of those small Klingon ships don't have enough hardpoints, even if the arcs existed, they wouldn't be able to use both.

At one point, I started listing every error I found, but it was too much work to ever finish. Instead, the best I can do is run Mags' comparator to see what changes I made. The trouble is, it only shows fixes that could be done, not fixes that weren't possible given the limitations of the arcs and hardpoints.

Anyway, even modest additions (fixed LWX and added LS+RF/RS+LF arcs, for instance) would be a great help.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 02:34:04 pm

Quote:

I can't list all the ships I've found errors in (if you can call them errors -- depends on your point of view). Some are significant, like the Z-DNH, which has 4 Ph3s where it should have 4 Ph1s. Others are minor, like ships with the incorrect number of shuttles.

One could say the Z's.. the Miraks... are sufficiently different from SFB's Kzinti so that SFC doesn't get sued. I'd like to support them if that's the case.
However, I can tell you that strafer fixed the Z-DNH for the phasers.

Quote:

The FAL+rear and FAR+rear don't exist that I've seen. FRRX and FLLX are FRR and FLL with rear, not FAR and FAL. Also, since some of those small Klingon ships don't have enough hardpoints, even if the arcs existed, they wouldn't be able to use both.

At one point, I started listing every error I found, but it was too much work to ever finish. Instead, the best I can do is run Mags' comparator to see what changes I made. The trouble is, it only shows fixes that could be done, not fixes that weren't possible given the limitations of the arcs and hardpoints.

Anyway, even modest additions (fixed LWX and added LS+RF/RS+LF arcs, for instance) would be a great help.

Oh. I see. Ok. I dunno if they'll do something about that arc, but I might draw them a little diagram for it too.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Tumulorum Fossor on April 06, 2003, 12:00:54 am

Just want to say, "Hat's off" to FireSoul. This is a GREAT project. I think it's great how SFC has basically split into two groups: the Star Trek fans who are gamers (the SFC3 crowd), and the SFB crowd who are PC gamers (the SFC OP and (now less so) SFC EAW crowds).

I think FireSoul's work is a GREAT reason for the SFBers to, once and for all, embrace OP over EAW for future developments.

I'm glad you're asking the fine programmers at Taldren for some assistance with getting the proper firing arcs going. What do you think the chances are, candidly speaking, for us getting those arcs? I'm not holding my breath, but, hey, they're a responsive bunch of nice guys, so it could happen...

As an aside, thank, FireSoul for getting me up to speed and back into the active SFC community. I've been off the radar for awhile and am trying to get back on course. And I wouldn't be if it weren't for the work of KhoroMag, NW, and FireSoul. Good stuff, guys. Real good.

Let's get those firing arcs, dammit!

-TF

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 06, 2003, 01:16:37 am

We just had a night of playtesting and mere playing with the latest version of my shiplist.. test version of course. There are still the B10 and the Z-BB fixes to do, as well as ideas as to how to insert maybe another couple of hundred ships to the shiplist.

.. but.. so far... (how best to explain) ..
.. the shiplist is definitely more optimized with the YLA dates properly set. We had to lower the difficulty from 1.75 to 1.6 in the coopace. The game got HARD to play.. challenging might be a better description. We lost a few times. It was all good when we won.

When this shiplist is ready, it will definitely boost interests in D2 play. .. We could actually say that "EAW D2" is also a bit broken because the shiplist is just wrong.

-- Luc
(teasing :-)

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 06, 2003, 03:31:18 pm

I already asked for that one.
It also applies to the "Fire Support Pallet" for hydrans, which I haven't entered because of the arc.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 06, 2003, 08:11:26 pm

Question to all:

If it's Prior to Y175, and the following drone racks have the following # reloads...(or more) :
"DroG" => "2" (the 3rd reload is entirely ADDs, and is represented by the extra ADD rack)
"DroA" => "1"
"DroB" => "2"
"DroC" => "2"

.. there's probably something wrong, and it needs to be checked.
Similarly, any ship found with LESS reloads AFTER Y175 are probably wrong too.

Do you all agree? Would the ADDs be similar?
-- Luc

EDIT: I have over 500 ship entries to verify with the above conditions. I wrote a script to help me detect these issues.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 07, 2003, 07:22:05 am

Except when noted on the SSDs, generally pre-Y175 ships had 1 reload for each drone rack. Type-Gs had 2, but the SECOND one was for ADDs. After Y175 refits, that changes to 3, with the third being ADDs. Again, there are exceptions, but this is the general rule-of-thumb.

In many cases, the Taldren shiplist gives ships the extra reloads before Y175 if they already had B or C racks (but not always). In some cases, ships were given the advanced racks over As too soon (i.e., a refit step was skipped, or a ship released close to Y175 was not given a pre- and post-Y175 version). The same often happened with Gs getting the extra reload too soon. These are generally minor changes, but as long as more in-depth shiplists are being done, and there are now higher limits per hull class, why not add the extra refit steps? I think FS has already done this in many cases.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 07, 2003, 07:49:02 am

As for ADD reloads, I would tend to give them just 1 reload. However, now that I think about it, the SSDs generally show ADD12s with a pair of boxes under each one in the main track. For example, the E4E (which I happen to have on hand), always had 4 ADD12s, and the SSD shows the extra boxes underneath each main box. That would indicate 2 reloads. I need to check the rules, but that's my best interpretation at the moment.

On the other hand, the F5V shows 12 rounds with 2 reloads on the SSD, but notes "6 rounds before Y175 refit; 12 after." It does not mention reloads. My guess is the rules cover the default reloads all ADD racks should get (Gs being a different case -- they never have more than 1 reload worth of ADDs, which technically is not a reload, but the only 6 rounds it should have). I'll have to check the rules later.

Plasma-D have similar rules. On the G-CV, for instance, the tracks show 4 main boxes with a pair of smaller boxes for each, and the note "one reload prior to Y175; two reloads Y175 & after." So, the Plasma-D would have 4 rounds and 1 reload set of 4 pre-Y175, 2 post-Y175.

The one thing that troubles me most about drone reloads is that ALL drone ships can purchase up to 4 reloads, making the limits almost useless. The only difference is they have to pay for the reloads instead of having them to start. Of course, many ships get "cheated" out of drones because they don't get their cargo-storage reloads (though these would not be generally usable mid-battle).

So, one way or the other, allowances have to be made for the differences between what SFB allows and what is possible in SFC.

One last note: some ships in the default list get ADD12s earlier than they should (usually Y175), often because the ship skips a refit step as I described in my post above.

Whew, what a jumble!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 02:27:18 pm

Quote:

These are generally minor changes, but as long as more in-depth shiplists are being done, and there are now higher limits per hull class, why not add the extra refit steps? I think FS has already done this in many cases.

No.. Not really. Not until now.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 02:51:40 pm

Quote:

As for ADD reloads, I would tend to give them just 1 reload. However, now that I think about it, the SSDs generally show ADD12s with a pair of boxes under each one in the main track. For example, the E4E (which I happen to have on hand), always had 4 ADD12s, and the SSD shows the extra boxes underneath each main box. That would indicate 2 reloads. I need to check the rules, but that's my best interpretation at the moment.

Mine too. I think ADDs must have a minimum of 1 reload in SFC. That means ADD6s added because of a G-rack should have only 1 reload, while all others should have 2.

Quote:

On the other hand, the F5V shows 12 rounds with 2 reloads on the SSD, but notes "6 rounds before Y175 refit; 12 after." It does not mention reloads. My guess is the rules cover the default reloads all ADD racks should get (Gs being a different case -- they never have more than 1 reload worth of ADDs, which technically is not a reload, but the only 6 rounds it should have). I'll have to check the rules later.

Right. My thoughts exactly. I need to figure out the logic of parsing through the shiplist, detect all the ADDs on ships, ignore the cases where the ADDs are because of the G-racks, and print out anything that doesn't match the pattern of what's available in the given era.

ADD6s before Y175, ADD12s after Y175, 2 reloads for them all.

Quote:

Plasma-D have similar rules. On the G-CV, for instance, the tracks show 4 main boxes with a pair of smaller boxes for each, and the note "one reload prior to Y175; two reloads Y175 & after." So, the Plasma-D would have 4 rounds and 1 reload set of 4 pre-Y175, 2 post-Y175.

THAT I can't do. The "ARC" column is used for the reload. ie, per weapon mount:
Number of weapons, Weapon, Arc.

In the case of the PLaD, the ARC is actually used. ie: "LS". I can't specify the # of reloads.

Quote:

The one thing that troubles me most about drone reloads is that ALL drone ships can purchase up to 4 reloads, making the limits almost useless. The only difference is they have to pay for the reloads instead of having them to start. Of course, many ships get "cheated" out of drones because they don't get their cargo-storage reloads (though these would not be generally usable mid-battle).

So, one way or the other, allowances have to be made for the differences between what SFB allows and what is possible in SFC.

It's ok. Even if the # of reloads is not going to affect the player ship itself much, it will generate more challenging AIs, and create better battlefests, etc.
(and to correct you: yes, crews can fetch drones in cargo boxes in mid-battle. Nothing says that they can't.)

Quote:

One last note: some ships in the default list get ADD12s earlier than they should (usually Y175), often because the ship skips a refit step as I described in my post above.
Whew, what a jumble!

That's going to be part of the fixes. You realize all the extra ship entries this will generate in the shiplist?? I might be adding a few more hundred ships.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: DestinyCalling on April 07, 2003, 02:55:25 pm

To Firesoul.....

You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....

Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........

TA!!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 03:34:36 pm

Agh. Another EAW request. PLAY OP, DAMNIT!

From Page 3 of this thread:

Quote:

I know, but experience tells me I won't see a soul play SFC:OP if this is done for EAW..
I have to prioritize, and be unfair..

Sincerely,
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: DestinyCalling on April 07, 2003, 04:59:50 pm

I would do, BUT I CANT GET HOLD OF IT ANYWHERE !!!!!.......

Hence the request.....

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: The Postman on April 07, 2003, 05:34:11 pm

Quote:

To Firesoul.....

You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....

Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........

TA!!

I know you asked FS for an answer but I will tell you what I did. I took an older release of his shiplist and deleted all of the ships with "X" weapons. After that it worked just fine. I do not believe the newest release of the shiplist will work in EAW because there are too many ship variations per class. I have kept both the November and January versions just for EAW.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:34:28 pm

Ah. I understand.
.. is an online purchase acceptable to you?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:37:06 pm

Hey Nomad,

.. think it's acceptable to change the X-ships from G-racks to B-racks? The Xships have more drones per reload. As long as the ADDs are still present, it could do the trick. .. or how about a 3rd reload? (I'm not counting the last reload of ADDs only. That's taken up by the added ADD racks.)

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:39:04 pm

Quote:

Quote:

To Firesoul.....
You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....
Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........
TA!!

I know you asked FS for an answer but I will tell you what I did. I took an older release of his shiplist and deleted all of the ships with "X" weapons. After that it worked just fine. I do not believe the newest release of the shiplist will work in EAW because there are too many ship variations per class. I have kept both the November and January versions just for EAW.

.. so you're the one keeping SFC:OP players from us? Give them back!

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: The Postman on April 07, 2003, 05:39:41 pm

Quote:

I would do, BUT I CANT GET HOLD OF IT ANYWHERE !!!!!.......

Hence the request.....

Buy OP here for $4.95!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: The Postman on April 07, 2003, 05:44:19 pm

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:48:01 pm

Quote:

This is the first time I told anybody about that trick. I save EAW for online play and use OP for everything else.

Think there's a chance OP might replace EAW for online play?
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Corbomite on April 07, 2003, 05:52:03 pm

Quote:

Think there's a chance OP might replace EAW for online play?
-- Luc

I think not. When I went into the EAW room on GSA to announce that a new OP patch had been put out to anyone interested, the response I got was "Why would they spend time patching a dead game?".

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:55:33 pm

Quote:

I think not. When I went into the EAW room on GSA to announce that a new OP patch had been put out to anyone interested, the response I got was "Why would they spend time patching a dead game?".

I feel like I want to slap these people.

I mean.. c'mon.. WHY am I even bothering if it's a dead game? It is NOT a dead game.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: The Postman on April 07, 2003, 05:56:53 pm

Yes I do think OP could replace EAW for online play IF the server admins would give it a chance. Your shiplist has added a great deal of depth and complexity to OP. When I get the Fed tug with 3 ph1 and nothing else, I really have to be in good form to stay on top,

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 06:13:13 pm

Quote:

Yes I do think OP could replace EAW for online play IF the server admins would give it a chance. Your shiplist has added a great deal of depth and complexity to OP. When I get the Fed tug with 3 ph1 and nothing else, I really have to be in good form to stay on top,

Ok. In that case, you'll enjoy the next shiplist immensely. I still have a lot of work to do. (I'm still calling it "1.3" here, locally, ) I'm thinking of calling it 2.0 when it's time to release.. too much has been changed/reviewed.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: DestinyCalling on April 07, 2003, 06:14:44 pm

Sorry, I wasn't being so accurate......

What I meant was, I CANT GET IT IN THE UK (Anywhere).......

Hey, I wonder if I can borrow a copy from someone????

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Julin Eurthyr on April 07, 2003, 06:16:50 pm

On Drone reloads & Taldren Conversion:

From what I've gathered, all ships can have up to 5 reloads per rack. The "default" load, and the 4 purchaseable "reloads" in the shipyard. Due to being primarily Plasma, I can't recall the exact count.

The reason behind the doubled reloads is to counter the doubled internals.

On the shiplist, my understanding of the "rack informaion" (2xDro-A 1, 3xDroB-2), translates to:
# of racks on hardpoint, rack type, number of "free" reloads every mission.

So, for "doubled internals", giving a "2" for reloads = 2 free reloads (doubled the original "max" capacity of a one-reload rack), and giving a "4" for reloads = doubled the max capacity of a 2 reload rack. If there were a way to make the slow-> medium -> fast upgrade (for default drones) "free", and charge a lot (say 1000 pp) per rack reload, we could keep ships to their "SFB" reload count except for those wiling to pay an arm and a leg...

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 06:33:11 pm

..
.. no.. I disagree.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 07, 2003, 10:17:23 pm

Quote:

Hey Nomad,

.. think it's acceptable to change the X-ships from G-racks to B-racks? The Xships have more drones per reload. As long as the ADDs are still present, it could do the trick. .. or how about a 3rd reload? (I'm not counting the last reload of ADDs only. That's taken up by the added ADD racks.)

-- Luc

Thanks for the clarifications -- I wasn't thinking straight about Plasma-D, or I would have realized it doesn't work the same as drones in SFC. I'm still fuzzy on actually using drone reloads from cargo in battle, having not actually played SFB in a long time. However, it is stated for the drone D-rack magazines that even while one magazine (of 3) per rack was being fired, the other ones could be reloaded. So, without actually READING the rules (yeah, that's too intelligent a thing to do!), I guess reloads are allowed as long as you're not firing that rack for a turn. Regardless, it just doesn't work the same here. The drone boats that actually had tons of reloads can't be given the same amounts in SFC, while the ones without the extra storage can have more than they deserve. I guess it balances out due to how well droners flip hexes in D2, but it's not much comfort for match play.

About the Xes and their drone racks, the actual racks are GXes. Since they hold more drones, the best approximation I've seen is a B-rack plus ADD12.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 07, 2003, 10:26:42 pm

I could almost buy the doubled internals requiring doubled reloads, but then the reloads can be purchased by ANY drone ship. A Klingon D7 with A-racks prior to Y175 can have 4 reloads even though it should only have 1 reload (loaded drones plus 1 reload). Even doubling the reloads, you get 1 base load plus 2 reloads. That means they can get between 2x and 4x the reload drones they should according to SFB.

So, since it is the way it is, added to the fact that in D2 buying reloads and supplies is a PRESTIGE TRANSACTION, not a BPV modifier (no way for the game to calculate adjusted BPV for mission matching -- it just looks at BPV, not BPV + reloads + better fighters + etc. -- the best that can be done is a reasonable approximation that stays standard across the board. At least SFB provides a guideline for that, even if it's not really applicable to the different platform. At the very least, fixing them all to SFB specs makes sure they only get the free reloads they should. The poor AI, on the other hand, can't buy reloads.

See? I said it was a jumble.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Julin Eurthyr on April 07, 2003, 10:29:01 pm

Quote:

..
.. no.. I disagree.

To what? Me or a prior poster???

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jimmi7769 on April 07, 2003, 10:32:41 pm

Quote:

Quote:

This is the first time I told anybody about that trick. I save EAW for online play and use OP for everything else.

Think there's a chance OP might replace EAW for online play?
-- Luc

Not unless the D2 problems are fixed.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 07, 2003, 10:40:06 pm

The ADD rules from Captain's Basic Set (G-rack ADDs are different, as stated earlier):

E5.71 Reloads
All ships equipped with ADD racks have two complete sets of reloads for the rack ...

Also:

E5.74 Reloading
One, two, three, or four anti-drones can be loaded on each ADD rack each turn, but only if the rack is not fired during that turn ...

Similarly:

FD2.421 (subsection under Reloads)
Up to two spaces of drones can be loaded on a given rack during a single turn, provided that the rack is not fired during the entire turn.

FD2.43 Stockpile
All ships are presumed to carry one complete set of reloads ...

Oh, and in case anyone cares, there are also ADD-30s, which are used by starbases and battle stations. Any approximation of this approaching 30 rounds must be from multiple ADD racks, which means the bases can fire more ADDs at once, but won't have them for as long, since they are using them simultaneously.

The point is, though SFC is not SFB, as it is now the shiplist is not standardized. At least FS is making an attempt to do that by using SFB as a guideline.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 08, 2003, 12:21:32 am

Quote:

Quote:

..
.. no.. I disagree.

To what? Me or a prior poster???

.. well.. the 5 reloads thing.. but nm.
.. I guess you were asking for something.. and I misunderstood.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 08, 2003, 12:23:36 am

Quote:

The point is, though SFC is not SFB, as it is now the shiplist is not standardized. At least FS is making an attempt to do that by using SFB as a guideline.

To some extent. When I'm done, someone wants to proof-read?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Scipio_66 on April 08, 2003, 12:55:13 am

Quote:

To Firesoul.....

You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....

Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........

TA!!

Not to distract from Firesoul's efforts, but OP and EAW use the same shiplist structure. If you are working with imperial races, and avoid maulers and X-weapons (blech....), you should be able to cut and paste just about anything. One of the arcs for Klinks may be a bit wider in OP, but at least all the arcs in EAW actually work.

(Just teasing!)

You'd have to use this list in skirmish or singleplayer for your EAW games. It obviously wouldn't do you much good logging onto an OP dynaverse since you wouldn't be running OP. But until you find OP for sale (and until they fix the OP dynaverse) I guess this point won't matter much to you anyway.

Best of luck to Firesoul. I look forward to seeing the final product.

-S'Cipio

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 08, 2003, 06:26:55 am

OP D2 is actually working better now than ever before, using the latest server kit. Try out Badlands or, even better, check out RazalYllib's "Strife" server when it goes live.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Tumulorum Fossor on April 08, 2003, 07:56:04 am

I've moved off of EAW and firmly onto OP. FireSoul's shiplist accelerated that migration for me personally. I am encouraging some SFB friends of mine to do the same.

You should be able to get copies of OP for ~$10 at lots of places.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/B00005JD51/all/ref=dp_pb_a/002-4550448-5548830

or

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=orion+pirates

Cheap. Readily available. Step up from EAW at this point, given stability of new D2 code, and more patches are on the way.

In FireSoul's words:
> > > > > > OP has some things EAW will never have.
> > > > > > 1- xships.
> > > > > > 2- Maulers
> > > > > > 3- More pirates, if that's important, and engine doubling.
> > > > > > 4- my shiplist.

> > > > > > 5- a better AI to play against.
> > > > > > 6- a more stable game platform (not counting the online D2)**

**and that D2 code has improved recently, and is expected to be further improved soon.

-TF

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 08, 2003, 03:42:24 pm

Someone once told me I wasn't the "savior of OP".
... well.. I'm not.

But I will do my damnedest to make this game as good as it gets.. It's the closest thing to an entertaining SFB-like game I have ever seen, and a lot of people WILL AGREE.

.. stay tuned.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Braxton on April 08, 2003, 04:59:44 pm

I love playing OP. It has those things that EAW will never have. You can play 16 differents Empires/Cartels. Plus with the EAW campaigns available for OP it makes everything better.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 09, 2003, 03:34:28 am

For the interested, here is the compare.txt between shiplist 1.21 and the current unfinished work:

http://pet.dhs.org/~firesoul/sfc2/shiplist/compare_200304090430.txt

No ETA yet.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Tumulorum Fossor on April 09, 2003, 06:52:41 pm

Hmmm.... Luc, are you sure about the "being able to get drone reloads out of cargo mid-battle" thing?

I have to dig out my SFB stuff (yes, post Doomsday) to check, but as I recall, the cargo-based drone reloads were for playing a series of scenarios with the same ship. That is, to allow a ship to reload for another scenario after depleting its drones in a previous scenario, and that the rules explicitly state that those drones are inaccessible during a scenario.

But I could be VERY wrong here. That's just what I recall.

-TF

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 01:36:07 am

Can someone find the rule?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Rod O'neal on April 10, 2003, 01:54:19 am

Ships in SFB can have extra drones in storage equal to the capacity of their drone racks including all reloads. These drones can be purchased as commander's options before the scenario starts. This "drone storage facility" is not on the SSD and does not take damage on the DAC. It is destroyed with the last excess damage hit. Drones are automatically loaded from there to the drone reload racks. If the ship has drones stored in cargo boxes, like drone ships and some carriers, then the "drone storage facility" is automatically replenished from the cargo boxes. So, in effect, all the drones are available during a scenario. Although the drones are transfered from these locations at different rates. The reason for all the semantics with where they are stored is because they are "explosive ordnance" and have special transfer rates and rules. I don't see any way to recreate this drone storage/cargo capabilities in SFC.
I don't know if it's already been mentioned or not, but I read where some differences in x-ships had been noted. I didn't notice anyone mentioning that x-batteries hold 3pts. of power each and x-ships also have a "natural" EW advantage +2pts. ECCM, and 2 het bonuses (Orions have 3). If it's already been mentioned sorry for repeating it.
Actually, almost every system on x-ships is different/improved. Most of which isn't reflected in SFC. Although, the BPV's are the same. This has always bugged me, but I don't want to rant

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 04:00:07 am

I thought it didn't make much sense to state "drones cannot be reloaded from cargo" if they can be stored and reloaded from any part of the ship.

Thanks Rod.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 04:11:31 am

In other news..
.. I decided to cut short the current review of the shiplist: who gives a bloody damn if the pirates get a proper and correct Y175 anyways?!?
I still have some work to do, but I'd like to show you a sample of what I have so far:

Item 1:
Just like in the previous preview pic I posted, the shipyard and actual battles are a lot more interesting and up to date. Here's a sample:

Item 2:
I scripted conditions which raised a "check me" flag on ships with questionable drone and ADD loadouts.
Specifically:
- ships with ~Y168-170 and Y175 refits all rolled up in one. (lazy of Taldren to do. Mirak suffered from it)
- ADD6 with 1 reload .. (ADD6 always had 2 reloads)
- ADD12 with 1 reload .. (ADD12 always had 2 reloads)
- Each G-rack has a ADD6 with 1 reload accompanied. (exception from 2 lines above)
- Y175 refit changes G-racks from 1 drone reload to 2.
- Y175 refit changes A-racks to either B or C racks with 2 reloads (depends on SSD)
- A-racks had only 1 reload prior to Y175
- B-racks usually had 1 reload, if ship had B-racks before Y175 (there are exceptions)
- be careful of the exceptions which are everywhere.

Here's an example
This ship is identical in cost and weaponry from the F-GSC+, except in Y175 it recieves the G-rack reload refit.

This should add wholesome playable depth to the D2 campaigns, n'est-ce pas?

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 04:13:46 am

PS. One can assume pirates had obsolete and unproperly maintained equipment. I don't care to review all the 550+ ships my perl script reported to have errors in the pirates' side of the shiplist.
PPS: I still have some work to do. How badly do you guys want this updated shiplist?

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 04:26:58 am

Additional examples. See the differences?
-- Luc

before Y175:

after Y175:

Again, before Y175:

after Y175

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 10, 2003, 06:59:06 am

Looks good. I'm glad to see you're using the "R" designation for Y175 refits. I've been doing the same in my work on an SFB list for SFCX's ToW campaigns to come.

After a brief spot-check of the FD7R, I noticed I had a BPV of 160 (not 158, and my FD7K has 155 instead of 153) and a total crew of 45. I don't have the SSD on hand to compare, but I think you're using the SFB total crew boxes as "regular crew," which is then boosted by half the marines value (and half the deck crews if present). In SFB, those marines are part of the crew, each 2 units representing 1 box of crew -- or do I have the rule wrong? Taldren's list is inconsistent on this point, sometimes following this rule, and sometimes using the total crew from SFB as regular crew, as you have here. The crew probably has no effect on the ship performance or longevity in battle, but I find it personally annoying not to have one standard for such things.

Using Taldren's BPV calculation of plus 2 pts. per starting fighter (representing SFC list BPV for those fighters), I also came up with 154 on the CVL+ and 160 on the CVLR. Total crew is 40.

Have you been using SFB BPVs as the rule for all ships, or deferring to Taldren BPVs? I'm just curious to compare how we do things differently, so I can find the best ways to handle things for my own purposes, which are more slavish to SFB than yours.

At the rate I'm going, I don't know if I'll ever finish my list (been working at it for almost a year off and on), but the less I have to go back and change things across the board to fit the standards (like the ADD reloads), the better chance I have to get it done sometime before entropy sucks the universe back in upon itself.

Keep up the great work!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 10, 2003, 07:07:11 am

On YFA/YLA dates, it occurs to me that in SFB most of the Y175 refits (all of them?) are available from day one of Y175 at cost. Considering this, I always phase out any pre-Y175 refits still left in the list at year 11 (Y174) so that all AI ships are fully refitted. Any players with old ships in D2 would represent the captains who had not made it back to base for refits yet. This helps to unclutter the list when all those Y175 variants suddenly appear.

The balance of upgrade refits, generally, are more staggered in their implementation, with some ships and ship types receving priority over others for the refits.

You can't be more right about watching out for exceptions -- they're everywhere!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Tumulorum Fossor on April 10, 2003, 09:08:43 am

Thanks to Rob O'Neal for setting me straight re: cargoed' drone reloads during a battle being legit (with appropriate rate adjustments that are not applicable to SFC).

Luc--

I'd say hold off on the release until you've got it done (sans the ~550 Orions that could use some tinkering). Too many releases convolute everything...
...unless of course you envision your project taking 6 months to complete.

In that case go ahead and do an incomplete release.

Oh, and jdmckinney, did I read you correctly when you wrote tnat you were MORE slavish with SFB standards than Luc, here?

Dang! How much more strict can you be? But seriously, the BPV standard question (SFB or SFC fighter rules) is a good one. Unless it would force Luc to go back, I think I would prefer the SFB standard, since that's where we're going with all this.

You guys are GREAT!

Luc, keep it up. JDM, Great website.

-TF

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 11:11:41 am

Quote:

Looks good. I'm glad to see you're using the "R" designation for Y175 refits. I've been doing the same in my work on an SFB list for SFCX's ToW campaigns to come.

After a brief spot-check of the FD7R, I noticed I had a BPV of 160 (not 158, and my FD7K has 155 instead of 153) and a total crew of 45. I don't have the SSD on hand to compare, but I think you're using the SFB total crew boxes as "regular crew," which is then boosted by half the marines value (and half the deck crews if present). In SFB, those marines are part of the crew, each 2 units representing 1 box of crew -- or do I have the rule wrong? Taldren's list is inconsistent on this point, sometimes following this rule, and sometimes using the total crew from SFB as regular crew, as you have here. The crew probably has no effect on the ship performance or longevity in battle, but I find it personally annoying not to have one standard for such things.

Using Taldren's BPV calculation of plus 2 pts. per starting fighter (representing SFC list BPV for those fighters), I also came up with 154 on the CVL+ and 160 on the CVLR. Total crew is 40.

Have you been using SFB BPVs as the rule for all ships, or deferring to Taldren BPVs? I'm just curious to compare how we do things differently, so I can find the best ways to handle things for my own purposes, which are more slavish to SFB than yours.

At the rate I'm going, I don't know if I'll ever finish my list (been working at it for almost a year off and on), but the less I have to go back and change things across the board to fit the standards (like the ADD reloads), the better chance I have to get it done sometime before entropy sucks the universe back in upon itself.

Keep up the great work!

1: I have not always been checking BPVs of ships. Sometimes I have.
2: I have DEFINITELY not been checking the crew of ships. you're correct on the 2:1.
3: Taldren uses 1 BPV for each SFC fighter.
4: There are so many BPV adjustments to take account for, one could go crazy trying to compensate. Here are examples:
a- ships with disruptors: all Taldren ships have been equipped with UIM. They did not use '5' as the added BPV, but N disruptors + 1 BPV.
b- Interceptors cost 10 each. Mechlinks cost 1 each.
c- A lot of ships were adjusted for balance's sake. Escort ships for example.

I could write a script to systematically correct the crew unit proportions across the shiplist, that I don't mind so much.. (at least one to detect it). But the BPV is an issue I best leave alone unless there's a major correction to make.
Remember, this is SFC, not SFB. This is a SFC enhancement project, not a SFB correction project.

.. aww heck.. let's see.
FD7: 147 BPV. add 3 BPV for UIM adjustment. 150
FD7K: K refit +3 = 153
FD7R: Y175 refit +5 = 158.

.. my FD7 is correct.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 11:20:12 am

Quote:

On YFA/YLA dates, it occurs to me that in SFB most of the Y175 refits (all of them?) are available from day one of Y175 at cost. Considering this, I always phase out any pre-Y175 refits still left in the list at year 11 (Y174) so that all AI ships are fully refitted. Any players with old ships in D2 would represent the captains who had not made it back to base for refits yet. This helps to unclutter the list when all those Y175 variants suddenly appear.

The balance of upgrade refits, generally, are more staggered in their implementation, with some ships and ship types receving priority over others for the refits.

You can't be more right about watching out for exceptions -- they're everywhere!

Ah.
Well.
I did a 3-year overlap as a general rule for a refit, including the Y175 refit. Going back would be a massive correction. Some refits are K-refits and Y175 refits rolled up in one since they both occur in Y175. Maybe we should leave this alone? 3 years overlap isn't as bad as '999' as the YLA.

Having to correct this to exactitude would mean having to go through the entire shiplist all over again, and to add yet more "R" variants for the occasions I didn't because I rolled up the Y175 with another refit at the same time.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 11:25:27 am

crap. I just realized I don't have an accurate data source for the correct SFB crew values to compare with.

Ok then. I won't be checking for crew unless someone points out to me an obvious error somewhere.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Strafer on April 10, 2003, 11:49:05 am

Quote:

On YFA/YLA dates, it occurs to me that in SFB most of the Y175 refits (all of them?) are available from day one of Y175 at cost. Considering this, I always phase out any pre-Y175 refits still left in the list at year 11 (Y174) so that all AI ships are fully refitted. Any players with old ships in D2 would represent the captains who had not made it back to base for refits yet. This helps to unclutter the list when all those Y175 variants suddenly appear.
The balance of upgrade refits, generally, are more staggered in their implementation, with some ships and ship types receving priority over others for the refits.

On the other hand, looking at the bid screen you'll start to see both models for a little while. The ships don't ALL go from stock to refit overnight.
In the roleplaying sense of the setting, seeing a mix of refit and non-refit up for grabs sets the mood for a "work in progress" feeling in the few years of overlap.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 10, 2003, 12:03:46 pm

These various little issues are exactly why I'm doing my own version of the shiplist to SFB specs -- at least then I know it is consistent, even if sometimes it contradicts Taldren's rules. On the fighters, for instance, in the past all the fighters were counted for 2 BPV per fighter, EXCEPT the Hydrans, who were getting 1 BPV extra per fighter (because their fighters in the ftrlist were only 1 BPV when they should be 2). That, to me, is a mistake -- they should all be done the same. I elected to go with 2 BPV for consistency, but any serious campaign should probably do more fighter loadout and BPV tweaking, since the carriers always have a BPV advantage in that their combat value in mission scripts for D2 is the BPV, not the BPV plus fighter upgrade costs. If carriers had to pay the actual BPV of the fighter types they use, then D2 would be better balanced.

Anyway, I understand your reluctance to check every single ship with a fine-toothed comb. That's exactly why I have no release ready on my list -- I'm not even through half of the races (much less pirates) yet.

Oh, and on the SFCX website, the credit for that goes to Castrin and Capt. Stumpy.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 12:42:26 pm

I wish I knew how carrier BPV is calculated exactly.

Examples:
K-F5V: 70 + 8 fighters * 1 BPV = 78 (match)
F-NVL: 100 + 8 fighters * 1 BPV = 108. (no match. SFC has 137 BPV)
I-CVL(Z): 135 + 8 fighters * 1 BPV = 143 + 6 for PLaI adjustment = 149 (SFC has 157)
I-CVLS: 145 + 8 fighters = 153 + 6 for plaI = 159. (SFC has 157)

Base Fighter costs:
Fed: 2
Klingon: 2
Mirak: 2
ISC: 2
Hydran: 1
O-PE: 2

.. ... I'll need to think about it.. and to think about balance.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 10, 2003, 01:11:53 pm

Heh, I didn't mean to give you more headaches!

The biggest problem with the fighter BPVs, to me, is the 1 BPV for the KillerBee.I. Obviously, it is an equal ship to the other type-I fighters, plus Hydran Hornets (which tend to stand in for those 1 BPV spots when flown by players) are often considered among the best fighters available. An extra few BPV is small enough an adjustment for balance's sake, but how do you determine what BPV adjustment to use?

These are the trials and tribulations us shiplist editors have to deal with, folks -- do you appreciate Luc's efforts even more now?

For the record, I think he's doing a bang-up job, and his shiplist rocks.

Luc, thanks for the hard work!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 06:26:37 pm

I have decided to raise the BPV by 1 per fighter of ships that I have added myself. Basic Hydran fighter BPV will remain 1 BPV each.

If you encounter any other ships with BPV problems in after the release of this shiplist, tell me.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Rod O'neal on April 10, 2003, 07:39:03 pm

I've put SFB fighters in my EAW & OP shiplist. Then put the correct standard fighter for the first year that the ship is available on the ship. For example, if a Fed ship isn't available 'til Y183, then it's going to have F-18C fighters as its stock loadout. That's a bpv of 10 for each fighter! Should be 11 but i'm skipping wbp's. Oh, and drone speed upgrades. Since SFC ignores this all together. My point is that bpv is IMO almost purely subjective in SFC since only a small percentige of SFBs rules are in effect. I don't even know if Steve Cole could come up with an accurate bpv assesment

It's fun to try though, and in the end maybe we all can learn from what others do to try and get the game closer to the standard of SFB with what we've got to work with.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 10, 2003, 11:43:33 pm

I've pretty much given up on putting SFB fighters in SFC: the lack of Warp Booster Packs on both fighters and PFs kinda screw things up.
.. therefore all the original SFC fighters are present.. but additional PFs were added, of course. I think, persoanlly, that that's fair, especially since PFs appear so much later than fighters.

Anyways.. I have a good shiplist for now.. one could probably call it "stable" except I want to play with it for a while. I'll release it in a couple of weeks unless something special comes up. That should give me ample time to test it.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 11, 2003, 01:07:15 am

I have a suggestion for you: make a version with and one without WBPs.
.. reduce the # of hits on the ones with WBPs by 1/2, but double the speed. .. 2 separate fighters, but not a bad implementation.

.. also, SFC:OP has a mSetFighters function which does work if setting the fighters on a non-human controlled ship (AI). Maybe missions scripts should be revised to reflect this? (see coopace)

.. me, because I am trying to enhance SFC while keeping its own flavour, I might be keeping SFC fighters for a while.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jimmi7769 on April 12, 2003, 12:13:13 am

Well, if you look at it from the point that all of the fighters are packed and they all have doubled internals then the way they are in sfc would be close to right.

24 damage points 15 speed ...with packs 12 damage points 30 speed.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 12, 2003, 02:06:33 am

That makes sense.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Mog on April 12, 2003, 05:48:17 am

Giving carriers "proper" or improved fighters for the ai opponents on a dyna can make cariers over the top for players, especially when using ED missions. If you do this, I strongly urge you to ADD fighters' BPV to the carrier's BPV. This is based on several EAW servers experience. To start off in an F5 or similar, and to have to face half a dozen ships worth of Hydran fighters at a time, means many players (including the vets) will struggle to accomplish anything. The server "Ragnarok" was the epitomy of this problem, and it did appear on Herr Burt's recent day of the Eagle server until he increased carrier BPV so that the small ships weren't drafting carriers anymore (that one was with SFB fighters too).

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jimmi7769 on April 12, 2003, 09:18:48 am

Quote:

Giving carriers "proper" or improved fighters for the ai opponents on a dyna can make cariers over the top for players, especially when using ED missions. If you do this, I strongly urge you to ADD fighters' BPV to the carrier's BPV. This is based on several EAW servers experience. To start off in an F5 or similar, and to have to face half a dozen ships worth of Hydran fighters at a time, means many players (including the vets) will struggle to accomplish anything. The server "Ragnarok" was the epitomy of this problem, and it did appear on Herr Burt's recent day of the Eagle server until he increased carrier BPV so that the small ships weren't drafting carriers anymore (that one was with SFB fighters too).

agreed

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 12, 2003, 09:43:56 am

I just noticed that the OP+ list still has D5s (and variants) classed as WAR_DESTROYER. This is an old error from the default shiplist -- they are war CRUISERS, or NCLs, not war destroyers. They should be classed as LIGHT_CRUISER.

EDIT: The war destroyers are the F5W and FW_ variants. The F5s are mainly destroyers, even though they are called frigates (which are the E4s and E3s). Klingons can get a little screwy.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 12, 2003, 11:45:46 am

The Lyran LTT-B series of ships have their ESGs on phaser hardpoints instead of heavy hardpoints. There should be enough hardpoints if the disruptors are combined. I don't know if having ESGs on phaser hardpoints "breaks" them, but as long as there are enough heavy hardpoints to go around, it is safer to put them back under the heavies.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 12, 2003, 02:29:43 pm

Notes.
I will double-check the L-LTT-B (and rename it to LBT).
I will verify and change the D5s to LIGHT_CRUISER. I will change the F5W and FW variants to WAR_DESTROYER.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 12, 2003, 03:11:55 pm

Ok.. the above is done, mostly.
I've also changed the R-KDR to LIGHT_CRUISER.

I've adapted a script that detects phasers in heavy weapon mounts to detect also heavy weapons in phaser mounts. That said, I SKIP over ADDs, Drones, PLaD, or any other weapon which does not require energy.

result:

Quote:

K-HF5-1
K-HF5C1
K-HF5G
L-HDW1
L-HDW1F
L-HDWG
L-HDWGF
L-LBT (L-LTT-B)
L-LBT+ (L-LTT-B+)
L-LBTF (L-LTT-BF)
L-DHDW1
L-DHDWG
R-SBH1
R-SBHG
T-CR0
C-CX1

Please note those are all ships I added..
It's amusing to keep finding bugs with the shiplist at this point.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Tumulorum Fossor on April 12, 2003, 05:25:06 pm

"It's amusing to keep finding bugs with the shiplist at this point. "

It's pretty cool to watch the evolution of the shiplist at this point. It looks like after the NEXT release, what will be left will be some meticulous fine tuning - Orion stuff, BPV tweaking (let the debates continue), fighter tweaking (more debate), crew...

...So it's sounding really cool, Luc.

Any ETA?

-TF

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 12, 2003, 05:33:00 pm

I'm going out to play with it and coopace tonight.
I don't predict any problems while I'm out there.

.. so unless someone finds something else to fix, next week sometime.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: IndyShark on April 12, 2003, 09:00:43 pm

Firesoul, can we have a readme? LOL! I'd love to see what is coming up!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 13, 2003, 12:37:31 am

how about I copy-paste to you my own notes.. as-is.

Code:


Y175 refit variants 
  - 0 BPV for G-racks (1 reload to 2)
  - 1 BPV for A-rack -> B-rack (1 reload to 2, change to B racks)
  - 1.5 BPV (round up) for ADD6 -> ADD12
  - 0 BPV for B-racks already in place.
  - CX racks should have 3 reloads.
  - GX racks should have 3 reloads 
  - D5s seem to come with ADD12s.
  - No pirates were updated. That's just.. too much. We'll assume the equipment pirates get is .. well.. outdated, and not necessarily kept in good working order.

Code:


x SHOULD Y175 upgrades make previous variant YLA become Y174? Currently Y178. Maybe Y175 itself? No.
x script: check for PFs before 2278.
x Tigerheart: Mark ships with PFs with "F". Increase numbers of ships in list.
x Check and "liberate" the survey cruisers.
x Write script to check 'refit base' column. All entries should match another existing entry.
x Recalculate last 2 columns.
x Recheck the lyrans.. too many errors and missing ships encountered.
x Check appendices for the proper names for the tugs.  -- No such appendix. CAN'T.
x Populate missing refit base and refit type that are empty.
x Check for Crew proportions. 2:1 for BPs to crew. 2:1 for DeckCrews to crew.  -- No material to 
    reference to. CAN'T.
x Check pirates for ships with tech from way too early.
  ie: PLaS. DroC. PPD. 
x Fix B10 (weapons wrong). Use DN UI?
x Fix Z-BB.  FHL/FHR will stay as is for now, unless RSLF/LSRF are added.
x Change model for F-BCV to use F-BC?
x L-LTT-B (LBT?) has ESG on phaser hardpoint?
x K-D5s should be listed as LIGHT_CRUISERs, not WAR_DESTROYERs. Those are the F5W and FW variants.
x Renamed LTT-Bs to LBTs.

Code:


For web page:
  - explain YLA changes.
  - explain "Refit" and "Refit Base" column changes.
    - allows proper viewing in-game.
  - explain YFA changes for all PF+s and Lyrans. (no PFs before 2278, no INTs before 2276)
  - all Survey cruisers to be made into normally available ships
  - all scouts to be made "SPECIAL"
  - all commando ships to be made "SPECIAL"
  - all reloads for ADDs or Drones reviewed.
    - many new ships are variants because of missed/skipped refits. Fleshed out.
  - fighters cost differently now: 2 BPV for FKZI. 1 BPV for H. Didn't bother with most pirates, since they're crappy ships anyways. Let me know if you want a fix done.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 13, 2003, 01:00:26 am

I compiled the stats:

The original SFC:OP shiplist has 2370 ship entries.
The OP Plus Refit shiplist has 3724 ship entries.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Bernard Guignard on April 13, 2003, 08:38:11 am

Hi Firesoul
I'm currently using your Ship list dated 20030320. I'm playing a single player campaign federation. I've upgraded to the latest OP patch. I've noticed that enemy ships from your list are not appearing on the tactical map during some scenarios. Have you gotten this response before and if so how do I go about to fix it? Thanks for your time and advice. Love the work your doing by the way

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 13, 2003, 10:18:43 am

Shpis that are marked as "SPECIAL" won't be appearing..

.. can you give me more information of which ships you expected?
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 13, 2003, 11:10:51 am

I'm ready to release version 2.0..
.. any last-minute changes requests?

If not by tonight (7 or 8pm EDT or so), I'll put up the new release, and post about it.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 13, 2003, 12:25:31 pm

Quote:

Check for Crew proportions. 2:1 for BPs to crew. 2:1 for DeckCrews to crew. -- No material to reference to. CAN'T.

By this, do you mean you need a reference source to check all crew figures, marines, and deck crews, other than using the SSDs? If so, the best source I've seen is Module G1: Master Annex File

- Annex #7G has all the carrier information (including deck crews).

- Master Ship Chart has the crew and boarding parties numbers.

Unfortunately, this module does not have the data on ships from the most recent few ship modules, like the Dreadnoughts at War (R7), Fast Warships (R6), etc. It does have the vast majority of ships, though. Even though the master ship charts at the end of each module rulebook have the same info, I find it useful to have this one volume handy.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 13, 2003, 12:31:28 pm

I really meant a computerized data source.

PS. I own the master ship chart. I had to use it extensively for this shiplist.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Tumulorum Fossor on April 13, 2003, 04:02:13 pm

Yee-haw!

All rigtht! Can't wait!

Re: checking crew counts, well, that just sounds like an extremely tedious bit of minutiae to hold up 2.0...
...but it's something that can be done later for 2.1. (if there's anything I can do to help...).

After the latest release of the OP+ shiplist, I'll be interested to hear jdmckinney's suggestions, as his posts seem to be so insightful...
... but in the meantime, BRING IT ON, Luc!

Good work! Thanks!

-TF

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 13, 2003, 04:26:21 pm

LOL, work on an SFB shiplist with all the SSD modules you can buy for almost a year, and you'd become an amateur shiplist critic, too! I have to hand it to FS -- he's managed to stay sane, whereas I've taken long breaks from my shiplist work.

Here's to the best OP+ list yet!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Strafer on April 13, 2003, 04:35:07 pm

Quote:

... he's managed to stay sane, whereas I've taken long breaks from my shiplist work.

He's had some help along the way, that may explain why.

I've done (to scale) a little data entry (R7 was a blast! "Oh I've got to try this one! *SAVE* *QUIT* *START GAME*") and some
other friends pitched in for suggestions/opinions/ideas.

By the sounds of it, you were flying solo... Breaks would relieve the frustration of not yet seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 13, 2003, 05:55:39 pm

*yawn* ..
.. 7pm.. I just slept through the day. hrm.
I guess it's time I start writing up that announcement post in notepad..

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 13, 2003, 06:14:04 pm

This thread is NOW declared old, obsolete and hopefully closed.
Go to: http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=65420

Title: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 02:23:58 pm

I'd like to announce the release of the OP+ version 1.21. I decided to set it free to the rest of you today, just in time to reset the Badlands OP server, tonight.

Fixes include:
1- carriers with insufficient deck crews have been fixed. (important on its own. There were many)
2- some ships lacked proper drone control. Fixed. (just a few ships)
3- the L-LTTGs had more Marines than "Marines Max" which broke the spacedock under the D2 for these ships. Fixed.

The homepage for the OP+ shiplist is the same as before: http://klingon.stasis.ca/OP_plusrefit/

The package is updated: http://klingon.stasis.ca/OP_plusrefit/op_plusrefit_shiplist-20030331.zip

SFCx.org admins: can you update the URL for the package? The shipcount is the same. The size is more or less the same, the URL's different for the package (obviously) and the version is now 1.21 ..

Anyone else mirroring: Can you remirror?

People on GSA: update your shiplist.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 02:35:31 pm

No problem.. just fixes that needed to be done, and the server reset deserved the fixes that were already all done.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Corbomite on March 31, 2003, 02:45:49 pm

Wow! That was fast! Thanks FS.
Be sure to drop Dave (NW) a note to update his specs readout.
Will swapping out these files affect a saved campaign in any way?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 03:03:51 pm

In my experience, swapping shiplists didn't affect a single-player campaign much.
In this case, since all the same ships are present, it should well be safe.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 03:11:20 pm

Here's the exact information of what's been updated.
- a F-CAD+/F-CADR fix
- F-PRES, L-LTTG, L-LTTG+, L-LTTGF fixes: Max marines were wrong.
- some non-player Orion ships did not have enough drone control.
- the L-WaxPFS has drones on it but no drone control. Fixed.
- the C-LX2 had wrong reload ammounts for its drones.
- plenty of deck crew fixes.

Quote:

F-Pres: +40 marinesMax
F-FFV: +4 deckCrew
F-FFV+: +4 deckCrew
F-CAD+: +1 yfa
F-CADR: -1 yfa
F-CVB: +12 deckCrew
F-CVLT: +12 deckCrew
F-CVLT+: +12 deckCrew
F-BSF+: +12 deckCrew
F-BSFR: +12 deckCrew
F-BTSF+: +18 deckCrew
F-BTSFR: +18 deckCrew
F-SBF+: +24 deckCrew
F-SBFR: +24 deckCrew
F-SBZ: +24 deckCrew
H-PICV: +6 deckCrew
H-PICV+: +6 deckCrew
H-FQS: +2 deckCrew
H-BS: +4 deckCrew
H-BS+: +10 deckCrew
H-BSR: +10 deckCrew
H-BSF+: +10 deckCrew
H-BSFR: +10 deckCrew
H-BATS: +10 deckCrew
H-BATS+: +10 deckCrew
H-BATSR: +10 deckCrew
H-BTSF+: +14 deckCrew
H-BTSFR: +14 deckCrew
H-SB: +12 deckCrew
H-SB+: +12 deckCrew
H-SBR: +12 deckCrew
H-SBF+: +24 deckCrew
H-SBFR: +24 deckCrew
H-SBS: +12 deckCrew
H-SBX: +24 deckCrew
H-RNT: +7 deckCrew
H-SBZ: +24 deckCrew
I-BBV: +18 deckCrew
I-BBVZ: +18 deckCrew
I-BTSF+: +16 deckCrew
I-BTSFR: +16 deckCrew
I-SBF+: +24 deckCrew
I-SBFR: +24 deckCrew
I-SBZ: +24 deckCrew
K-D7N: +1 deckCrew
K-BSF+: +12 deckCrew
K-BSFR: +12 deckCrew
K-BTSF+: +16 deckCrew
K-BTSFR: +16 deckCrew
K-SBF+: +24 deckCrew
K-SBFR: +24 deckCrew
K-SBZ: +24 deckCrew
L-LTTG: +80 marinesMax
L-LTTG+: +80 marinesMax
L-LTTGF: +80 marinesMax
L-WAxPFS: +6 maxDroneControl
Z-CLV: +9 deckCrew
Z-BSF+: +12 deckCrew
Z-BSFR: +12 deckCrew
Z-BTSF+: +16 deckCrew
Z-BTSFR: +16 deckCrew
Z-SBF+: +24 deckCrew
Z-SBFR: +24 deckCrew
Z-SBZ: +24 deckCrew
Z-WZFF: +1 deckCrew
Z-WZFF+: +1 deckCrew
Z-WZDF: +1 deckCrew
Z-WFZX: +1 deckCrew
O-DN1: +6 maxDroneControl
O-DN2: +6 maxDroneControl
O-BB1: +16 deckCrew, +6 maxDroneControl
O-SB: +6 maxDroneControl
O-SB+: +6 maxDroneControl
O-SBR: +6 maxDroneControl
C-LX2: 1xDroG-C -> 1xDroG-2, 1xDroG-C -> 1xDroG-2

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Braxton on March 31, 2003, 06:15:38 pm

I'll have to try this shiplist.

Any new X-Ships? Like the original X-Ships but with different variants?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 06:20:34 pm

compared to what? Version 1.2 and 1.1? no.
There really aren't that many x-ships in SFB.

Compared to the stock OP shiplist? Yes.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 06:53:47 pm

Quote:

I'll have to try this shiplist.

Any new X-Ships? Like the original X-Ships but with different variants?

I prepared this just for you:
http://klingon.stasis.ca/OP_plusrefit/show_xships.txt

Those are all the 1st gen xships (X1). They are in addition to the Taldren Xships. (X2?)

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on March 31, 2003, 07:46:10 pm

Thank you Firesoul!

I still would love to see how you would spec out the Andromedans and Tholians given the limitations of SFC. Many people, including myself, would love to see what you could come up with. So what if the ships aren't 100% dead on I play this game for FUN. Please don't leave this task to us non SFB'ers....

Qa Pla!

KF

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Braxton on March 31, 2003, 08:37:06 pm

Quote:

Quote:

I'll have to try this shiplist.

Any new X-Ships? Like the original X-Ships but with different variants?

I prepared this just for you:
http://klingon.stasis.ca/OP_plusrefit/show_xships.txt

Those are all the 1st gen xships (X1). They are in addition to the Taldren Xships. (X2?)

-- Luc

Thank You!! I like these X-Ships and I have used the Ship Edit program to make some.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 08:51:43 pm

Quote:

Thank you Firesoul!

I still would love to see how you would spec out the Andromedans and Tholians given the limitations of SFC. Many people, including myself, would love to see what you could come up with. So what if the ships aren't 100% dead on I play this game for FUN. Please don't leave this task to us non SFB'ers....

Well, I think I'll let the idea of Andros for someone else to figure out for now.. this shiplist and other packages I maintain is enough to keep me busy for a while.

.. but otherwise, you're welcomed.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 10:40:12 pm

I think I've decided my next task: make this shiplist more D2 friendly.

More precisely, Fixing the YLAs of ships that should have been phased out by a refit. I'll keep you posted.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on March 31, 2003, 11:54:23 pm

Ok..
.. If a given ship class recieves a refit (ie: F-CA+), how much longer should the unrefitted ship exist? (ie: F-CA)
This is for D2 optimization. We could either follow the historical data, or what makes more sense for D2 play.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: RogueJedi_XC on April 01, 2003, 01:15:30 am

I usually make a ship-of-th-line available for two game-years after the FYA of the refit that replaces it, and auxilliary ships 3 or 4 game-years to simulate how I think refits might filter through a large fleet.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 01, 2003, 01:46:07 am

Also, what should I do about Lyrans with PFs so damned early in the game?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 01, 2003, 09:14:29 am

Luc, I deleted the old SFCX download listing and approved the new one you sent. If there are any problems with it, let us know.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 01, 2003, 02:14:42 pm

Thanks.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 01, 2003, 07:26:48 pm

Fire, in all future polls, put me down for a "as per SFB" vote, thanks.

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 01, 2003, 07:49:40 pm

Ok AJTK.. Ok..
.. but the first poll was because of lack of SFB info.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 02, 2003, 01:52:13 pm

Just to bring you up to date, and pull anyone who's interested into the loop, I've made my decisions on the next changes to the shiplist.

1- I've decided on 3 years overlap for a normal refit.. 2 years when it's obvious the refit obsoletes the previous incarnation of the ship, and 10 years of overlap for X1 refits. (SFB notes state that for maybe the first 8 years, only 1 F-CX was produced per year, then it accelerated)

2- I've spotted, for the first time, Commando ships entered as "SPECIAL". I will do the same to all the commando ships elsewhere in the shiplist. This will help generate more meaningful AI ships within any game involving AIs.

3- I'll make sure any scout ship is entered as "SPECIAL" while survey cruisers are entered as their appropriate hulltypes.

I've never actually reviewed the shiplist. The task is daunting. Just to manage dates and refit paths, it takes about 2 hours of review per race. This will take some time, but the process has begun. The compare.txt generated from this will be immense.
However, I can better D2 games.. better coopace games.. and better battlefest games. The D2 will be the most affected, in a positive way.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Edit:
4- Lyrans will have PFs or INTs only after 2276.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 02, 2003, 01:55:47 pm

Here's an example of the work being done:

.. I'm currently in ISC, where it's a mess with all the refits:
ie:
Code:

ECA  -38        -3   (I added)
CA   -3         999
CAW   2         999
CAP   5         999
CAY   7         999
CAZ   16        999

This should become:
Code:

ECA  -38        -1  
CA   -3         5
CAW   2         8
CAP   5         10
CAY   7         19
CAZ   16        999

Oh.. and there's the CCX
Code:

CCX   29        999

.. which means the CAZ's YLA becomes .. I did +10 for the X1 ships.. so 39.

result:
Code:

ECA  -38        -1
CA   -3         5
CAW   2         8
CAP   5         10
CAY   7         19
CAZ   16        39
CCX   29        999

.. tedious, eh?

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 02, 2003, 02:08:07 pm

This is good information.

Just to clarify -- there are "R" ("restricted" under special role) and "SPECIAL" tags available to restrict ships. In D2, I believe the AI is actually allowed to have "SPECIAL" ships, but not "R" ships. So, tagging ones you don't want to show up in shipyards or in AI hands with "R" would be the best way to go. If I've got the two confused, someone please enlighten me.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 02, 2003, 02:11:58 pm

By the way, is it even possible to keep ships from showing up as AIs but still available in the shipyard? I've always thought the AI could have any player-available ship PLUS any "SPECIAL" ships. Thus, they always have the potential to access more ships than players do, but not the other way around.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 02, 2003, 02:26:11 pm

Quote:

Just to clarify -- there are "R" ("restricted" under special role) and "SPECIAL" tags available to restrict ships. In D2, I believe the AI is actually allowed to have "SPECIAL" ships, but not "R" ships. So, tagging ones you don't want to show up in shipyards or in AI hands with "R" would be the best way to go. If I've got the two confused, someone please enlighten me.

I've seen players with "R" ships, but not with "SPECIAL" ships. Commando ships are all marked as "M" ships in the shiplist, so I should use "SPECIAL" anyways. Commando ships are weak, inexpensive so they appear everywhere, and the AI doesn't know how to use them. I'm a bit tired of seeing them.
Besides, I found that Taldren uses "SPECIAL" for Commando ships already.

Survey ships are all marked as "S".. but only some are marked as "SPECIAL". Scouts are all marked as "SPECIAL" and are also "S" ships. I want survey ships to become more common. At least some have good weaponry, especially after the changes I am doing.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 02, 2003, 02:28:32 pm

Quote:

By the way, is it even possible to keep ships from showing up as AIs but still available in the shipyard? I've always thought the AI could have any player-available ship PLUS any "SPECIAL" ships. Thus, they always have the potential to access more ships than players do, but not the other way around.

I believe "R" does that trick. Should I make commando ships "R", and use their normal hulls?

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Corbomite on April 02, 2003, 02:41:02 pm

If you ever figure out what the "I" in the ISC Special Role column means please tell me.
I do believe an "R" will take the ship out of play in the D2 entirely while "SPECIAL" will restrict it to the AI only, but I could be wrong.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 02, 2003, 03:00:48 pm

This is where I get confused. I am almost positive (don't have the .gf files in front of me) that "SPECIAL" is an available class for pricing and/or availability. That means those ships could potentially show up in a shipyard, but would be available/priced as a class outside of their respective actual sizes. After all, "SPECIAL" is a size class entry, right? "R" for restricted under special role, is, however, not a price/availability modifier that .gf settings refer to. I have never noticed an "R" ship show up in a D2 shipyard. However, these are readily available in GSA/multi play. So, I have to conclude (unless someone proves otherwise) that "R" will remove ships from players and AIs, and "SPECIAL" may just take them out of the shipyard but make them available for AIs and possibly ship loss replacements.

Boy, I'm out of practice here -- need to dig around to relearn this stuff.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: NuclearWessels on April 02, 2003, 03:58:25 pm

Hmm - if D2 missons are actually drafting things with a hull class of "SPECIAL" then it's probably a bug. AFAIK, all of the stock and ED dyna missions explicitly cut the "draftable" range off before the special class to avoid those ships. (For inquiring minds, frigate--battleship is the most common drafting range spec, and special is placed just outside that.)

As for the "R", I thought that didn't do much except remove them from the shipyards -- they still might get generated as AI in missions. I haven't tested that though, so I could be completely full of it.

dave

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 02, 2003, 04:11:32 pm

Ok..
.. so.. WHAT ships should be marked as "R" then? .. should a complete revision of the shiplist be done for SPECIAL ships and R ships both?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 02, 2003, 04:15:12 pm

Please remember.. this is a general purpose shiplist. It has to be as accurate for the game as possible.. just for the D2 isn't good enough.. Please remain impartial.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 02, 2003, 04:34:33 pm

I know, but the second wasnt, lol. Also, you KNOW I actually vote in every one of your polls that I see, but now that SFC has gone down the proverbial galactic sh#tter, I dont come here very often. Mainly to check on OP updates/patches (thanks for all you do, btw) and for an actual, honest to god "OFFICIAL" SFC"TNG patch.

SFB=Y

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 03, 2003, 06:51:09 am

OK, so it sounds like "SPECIAL" is a draftable ship class for AIs, but it is generally not used in custom missions (how about Taldren stock missions?). "R" ships are kept away from the player shipyards, but not necessarily from AIs. Neither should keep a ship out of a GSA player's hands. So, if you didn't want a ship to appear on the D2 at all, mark it as both "SPECIAL" and "R" to essentially remove it. If you want the ship to appear in AI hands, but not players' hands, then try "R." If you want it to be in the shipyard but not available to the AIs, then "SPECIAL" can work, as long as the D2 admin has a build chance set up for "SPECIAL." Of course, all "SPECIAL" ships will be priced and available under common modifiers, so a CA-sized ship in that group would be a better value than an FF.

Of course, any admin can change these two tags and the .gf settings to fit their campaign without having to make players use a modified version of your shiplist. They can also change the YFA/YLA dates to suit their needs. So, as long as you find what works for you, the admins can do their own availability tweaking -- you don't have to try to please everyone, at least.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 03, 2003, 09:25:57 am

Ok then. "SPECIAL" for Commando ships and Scout ships it is.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 03, 2003, 12:48:41 pm

I hope you guys aren't expecting this soon. This is gonna take a good long while to do. Heck, I'm not even done with the first draft of the revision yet and I've been at it for 3 days.

.. maybe in a few weeks or a month, I'll have a finished 'product'.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 03, 2003, 01:20:52 pm

I think everyone agrees you've gone beyond the call. There's already a wonderful working shiplist there for anyone to use; tweaks are icing on the cake.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: DestinyCalling on April 03, 2003, 03:54:59 pm

can anyone offer up advice on the best way to use it in EAW.... I know the x tech ui's aren't in the game, but as far as i can see thats it... oh, and orions of course....

any ideas???

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Strafer on April 03, 2003, 05:16:39 pm

ship limit still at 64 per hull class per race.
Klingon boom arcs.
Mauler.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 03, 2003, 05:41:35 pm

Let's just say I really want SFC:OP to prosper..
.. and take away players from EAW.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Rod O'neal on April 03, 2003, 10:04:49 pm

Quote:

Let's just say I really want SFC:OP to prosper..
.. and take away players from EAW.

I have All the SFC versions and play them all.
I have multiple mods for all of them. I use .bat files to
swap them in and out. This includes your OP+ files. Using
one doesn't mean you have to exclude another. I enjoy playing
with your shiplist a lot

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 04, 2003, 09:20:19 am

Quote:

Quote:

Let's just say I really want SFC:OP to prosper..
.. and take away players from EAW.

I have All the SFC versions and play them all.
I have multiple mods for all of them. I use .bat files to
swap them in and out. This includes your OP+ files. Using
one doesn't mean you have to exclude another. I enjoy playing
with your shiplist a lot

I know, but experience tells me I won't see a soul play SFC:OP if this is done for EAW..
I have to prioritize, and be unfair..

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Carrie on April 04, 2003, 01:25:35 pm

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Strafer on April 04, 2003, 01:59:46 pm

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 04, 2003, 02:25:51 pm

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 04, 2003, 02:42:59 pm

Quote:

As long as you're working on the next version of OP+, along with the F-BCV (which I still want an Excelsior model for), I thought I should ask about the K-B11V. Since it uses a K-BB hull, should it not also be using the K-BB UI? I noticed it was using the K-B10V one in game, and wondered if it shouldn't be using the standard B-10/B-11 one. Just another minor nitpick, admittedly.

I love the F-BBV, btw. It's the ship I've been looking for every time I modified an SCS.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 04, 2003, 02:46:05 pm

Quote:

The biggest trouble I have with doing shiplist work is just that pair of problems: not enough hardpoints to use all the right arcs, and not enough arcs (though OP at least has more than EAW). Plus, the LWX is broken, so even more ships can't be done "correctly" per SFB. It's just plain silly how many Kzinti/Mirak ships are using the wrong arcs (LWX broken, no forward equivalent of the LWX/RWX pair), and how many Hydrans are hurt because of the broken LWX. Then there are a number of Klingon arcs still not available ...

Oh well, since perfection is unattainable, at least we have OP to get closer to the model.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: CptCastrin on April 04, 2003, 04:50:41 pm

Quote:

Ok..
.. so.. WHAT ships should be marked as "R" then? .. should a complete revision of the shiplist be done for SPECIAL ships and R ships both?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 04, 2003, 04:57:35 pm

Well, I'll have to pull out the SSDs and rulebooks. Here are some snippets from the readme for my SFB shiplist (long overdue):

Quote:

Note that Taldren's arcs for many Klingon hulls (including Romulan ships) are significantly different from those in SFB. The RW and LW arcs, for instance, give many of these ships better arcs than they deserve. In some cases, there are ships that do not have as good an arc as they should (FAR and FAL arcs that should fire directly rear from boom phasers, for instance).

(In the SFB Captain's Edition Basic rules, there is more detail about the Klingon hull arcs on p. 33.)

On the B10:

Quote:

Phaser note: the SFC UI does not have enough phaser hardpoints, nor are there the appropriate arcs available even if there were sufficient hardpoints. Therefore, I have followed Taldren's example in assigning the phaser type placement and arcs. Instead of 7 Ph1s, 8 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s, the B10(B) has 9 Ph1s, 6 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s. I've adjusted the phaser arcs on the B11K, but they are still inaccurate due to the restrictions of hardpoints and arc availability.

On the Kzinti/Mirak medium cruisers (also affects a number of other ships of theirs):

Quote:

All medium cruiser variants should have RF/LS and LF/RS arcs on 2 of the Ph1s. Since these arc combinations are not available in SFC, I have made them LS and RS. Though this probably reduces their effectiveness, I have not reduced the BPV of these ships. I chose the LS/RS arcs over Taldren?s FHL/FHR arcs because I feel the loss of rear-firing capability on 2 phasers is worse than the loss of some forward firing coverage overlap.

On the Z-BB hardpoints/arcs:

Quote:

Because there are not enough heavy weapon hardpoints to give the ship 2 FAL and 2 FAR disruptors, I?ve increased the arc on one set of 4 disruptors from FA to FX. This provides extra overlap, but I?ve left the BPV alone since the ship loses some Ph3 and Ph1 arc coverage due to the broken LWX arc and lack of proper side and forward arc combinations. The rear Ph3s and side Ph1s are now LS/RS.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 04, 2003, 05:27:18 pm

I decided to test what I have done so far..
.. and it looks promising.

Set-up: Late Era. "ISC War of Pacification" compiled for SFC:OP.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Rod O'neal on April 04, 2003, 10:20:01 pm

[quote

I know, but experience tells me I won't see a soul play SFC:OP if this is done for EAW..
I have to prioritize, and be unfair..

I'm glad you took the time to explain. That makes sense.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 05, 2003, 01:24:47 am

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 02:03:48 am

Ok. Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to mention all the arcs.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Pestalence on April 05, 2003, 02:18:19 am

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 02:24:19 am

IMHO, they're one and the same.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Carrie on April 05, 2003, 02:46:37 am

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 11:17:18 am

Quote:

Well, I'll have to pull out the SSDs and rulebooks. Here are some snippets from the readme for my SFB shiplist (long overdue):

Quote:

Note that Taldren's arcs for many Klingon hulls (including Romulan ships) are significantly different from those in SFB. The RW and LW arcs, for instance, give many of these ships better arcs than they deserve. In some cases, there are ships that do not have as good an arc as they should (FAR and FAL arcs that should fire directly rear from boom phasers, for instance).

(In the SFB Captain's Edition Basic rules, there is more detail about the Klingon hull arcs on p. 33.)

Quote:

On the B10:
Quote:

Phaser note: the SFC UI does not have enough phaser hardpoints, nor are there the appropriate arcs available even if there were sufficient hardpoints. Therefore, I have followed Taldren's example in assigning the phaser type placement and arcs. Instead of 7 Ph1s, 8 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s, the B10(B) has 9 Ph1s, 6 Ph2s, and 6 Ph3s. I've adjusted the phaser arcs on the B11K, but they are still inaccurate due to the restrictions of hardpoints and arc availability.

Ok. Noted. The B10 is inacurate. Any other ships known?

Quote:

On the Kzinti/Mirak medium cruisers (also affects a number of other ships of theirs):

Quote:

All medium cruiser variants should have RF/LS and LF/RS arcs on 2 of the Ph1s. Since these arc combinations are not available in SFC, I have made them LS and RS. Though this probably reduces their effectiveness, I have not reduced the BPV of these ships. I chose the LS/RS arcs over Taldren?s FHL/FHR arcs because I feel the loss of rear-firing capability on 2 phasers is worse than the loss of some forward firing coverage overlap.

I'll pass that along to Taldren.. LSRF / RSLF sound good to you?

Quote:

On the Z-BB hardpoints/arcs:

Quote:

Because there are not enough heavy weapon hardpoints to give the ship 2 FAL and 2 FAR disruptors, I?ve increased the arc on one set of 4 disruptors from FA to FX. This provides extra overlap, but I?ve left the BPV alone since the ship loses some Ph3 and Ph1 arc coverage due to the broken LWX arc and lack of proper side and forward arc combinations. The rear Ph3s and side Ph1s are now LS/RS.

ok. *shrug* .. another ship to fix I guess? Any incorrect ships you know about, pass it along.

Quote:

Bases are also affected by insufficient arcs, mainly the LWX problem and the unavailable LS+RF and RS+LF arcs.
There should also be rear versions of the plasma LP and RP swivel arcs.
There are probably more I can't think of at the moment.

That's ok.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 11:39:17 am

Here are images I posted for Taldren to use as part of my request:

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 05, 2003, 01:28:29 pm

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 05, 2003, 02:34:04 pm

Quote:

I can't list all the ships I've found errors in (if you can call them errors -- depends on your point of view). Some are significant, like the Z-DNH, which has 4 Ph3s where it should have 4 Ph1s. Others are minor, like ships with the incorrect number of shuttles.

Quote:

The FAL+rear and FAR+rear don't exist that I've seen. FRRX and FLLX are FRR and FLL with rear, not FAR and FAL. Also, since some of those small Klingon ships don't have enough hardpoints, even if the arcs existed, they wouldn't be able to use both.

At one point, I started listing every error I found, but it was too much work to ever finish. Instead, the best I can do is run Mags' comparator to see what changes I made. The trouble is, it only shows fixes that could be done, not fixes that weren't possible given the limitations of the arcs and hardpoints.

Anyway, even modest additions (fixed LWX and added LS+RF/RS+LF arcs, for instance) would be a great help.

Oh. I see. Ok. I dunno if they'll do something about that arc, but I might draw them a little diagram for it too.

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: Tumulorum Fossor on April 06, 2003, 12:00:54 am

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 06, 2003, 01:16:37 am

-- Luc
(teasing :-)

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 06, 2003, 03:31:18 pm

I already asked for that one.
It also applies to the "Fire Support Pallet" for hydrans, which I haven't entered because of the arc.

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 06, 2003, 08:11:26 pm

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 07, 2003, 07:22:05 am

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 07, 2003, 07:49:02 am

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 02:27:18 pm

Quote:

These are generally minor changes, but as long as more in-depth shiplists are being done, and there are now higher limits per hull class, why not add the extra refit steps? I think FS has already done this in many cases.

No.. Not really. Not until now.
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 02:51:40 pm

Quote:

As for ADD reloads, I would tend to give them just 1 reload. However, now that I think about it, the SSDs generally show ADD12s with a pair of boxes under each one in the main track. For example, the E4E (which I happen to have on hand), always had 4 ADD12s, and the SSD shows the extra boxes underneath each main box. That would indicate 2 reloads. I need to check the rules, but that's my best interpretation at the moment.

Mine too. I think ADDs must have a minimum of 1 reload in SFC. That means ADD6s added because of a G-rack should have only 1 reload, while all others should have 2.

Quote:

On the other hand, the F5V shows 12 rounds with 2 reloads on the SSD, but notes "6 rounds before Y175 refit; 12 after." It does not mention reloads. My guess is the rules cover the default reloads all ADD racks should get (Gs being a different case -- they never have more than 1 reload worth of ADDs, which technically is not a reload, but the only 6 rounds it should have). I'll have to check the rules later.

Quote:

Plasma-D have similar rules. On the G-CV, for instance, the tracks show 4 main boxes with a pair of smaller boxes for each, and the note "one reload prior to Y175; two reloads Y175 & after." So, the Plasma-D would have 4 rounds and 1 reload set of 4 pre-Y175, 2 post-Y175.

Quote:

The one thing that troubles me most about drone reloads is that ALL drone ships can purchase up to 4 reloads, making the limits almost useless. The only difference is they have to pay for the reloads instead of having them to start. Of course, many ships get "cheated" out of drones because they don't get their cargo-storage reloads (though these would not be generally usable mid-battle).

So, one way or the other, allowances have to be made for the differences between what SFB allows and what is possible in SFC.

Quote:

One last note: some ships in the default list get ADD12s earlier than they should (usually Y175), often because the ship skips a refit step as I described in my post above.
Whew, what a jumble!

That's going to be part of the fixes. You realize all the extra ship entries this will generate in the shiplist?? I might be adding a few more hundred ships.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: DestinyCalling on April 07, 2003, 02:55:25 pm

To Firesoul.....

You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....

Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........

TA!!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 03:34:36 pm

Agh. Another EAW request. PLAY OP, DAMNIT!

From Page 3 of this thread:

Quote:

I know, but experience tells me I won't see a soul play SFC:OP if this is done for EAW..
I have to prioritize, and be unfair..

Sincerely,
-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: DestinyCalling on April 07, 2003, 04:59:50 pm

I would do, BUT I CANT GET HOLD OF IT ANYWHERE !!!!!.......

Hence the request.....

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: The Postman on April 07, 2003, 05:34:11 pm

Quote:

To Firesoul.....

You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....

Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........

TA!!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:34:28 pm

Ah. I understand.
.. is an online purchase acceptable to you?

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:37:06 pm

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: FireSoul on April 07, 2003, 05:39:04 pm

Quote:

Quote:

To Firesoul.....
You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....
Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........
TA!!

I know you asked FS for an answer but I will tell you what I did. I took an older release of his shiplist and deleted all of the ships with "X" weapons. After that it worked just fine. I do not believe the newest release of the shiplist will work in EAW because there are too many ship variations per class. I have kept both the November and January versions just for EAW.

.. so you're the one keeping SFC:OP players from us? Give them back!

-- Luc

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: The Postman on April 07, 2003, 05:39:41 pm

Quote:

I would do, BUT I CANT GET HOLD OF IT ANYWHERE !!!!!.......

Hence the request.....

Buy OP here for $4.95!

Title: Re: OP+ shiplist 1.21 released.
Post by: The Postman on April 07, 2003, 05:44:19 pm

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To Firesoul.....
You're really good at this shiplist business and I know you've written it for OP but....
Just how much can I cut/paste into EAW........
TA!!

I know you asked FS for an answer but I will tell you what I did. I took an older release of his shiplist and deleted all of the ships with "X" weapons. After that it worked just fine. I do not believe the newest release of the shiplist will work in EAW because there are too many ship variations per class. I have kept both the November and January versions just for EAW.

.. so you're the one keeping SFC:OP players from us? Give them back!

-- Luc

This is the first time I told anybody about that trick. I save EAW for online play and use OP for everything else.