Post by: jdmckinney on April 28, 2003, 06:54:48 pm
We could take a week to get a map together, use the current Reclamation settings, and just start in the early X era. What do you guys think?
Post by: TOCXOBearslayer on April 28, 2003, 07:17:23 pm
I don't care for them...
Post by: jdmckinney on April 28, 2003, 09:30:54 pm
Really, I KNOW a large portion of people don't like X-ships. Heck, I don't care for the Taldren ones, either. The idea would be to help FS get feedback on the Xes in his shiplist, plus let people have a little fun somewhere that's not a major campaign server. SG3 should suit the anti-X crowd nicely.
Post by: Dizzy on April 28, 2003, 09:45:25 pm
Quote:
A specialist server focusing on the "other" races like LDR, WYN, Tholians, or Andromedans
Well, JD... I have monsters the like of which you have never seen in SG3... Stuff that could easily be adapted to use for Andromedans. So I like your last proposal the best. Something with a late era start, a pre-X era and then the X-era... would be too cool.
In my research for workable (read adaptable) Andromedans, high numbers of labs actually work in rapid shield regeneration... Perfect for Andros. Give an Andro Armor and Labs for Hull and PA panels and this way, you give it minimal shielding... which it will regenerate nearly a whole shield in a few seconds with a very high labe rating. So a burst or alpha strike must do over that of the shield value, say a PF rating or above before penetrating... yet would be subject to shield reinforcement... and after hit would nearly come back up to full strength.
I have a complete mod for the tholians. All their ships, PF's, fighters, SSD's, shiplist specs...everything. I even have a web model Wicked Zombie did for me. Tracey is in the slow process of inserting sub routines in mission scripts that enable the charging, ta4rgeting, firing and recharging of a web, complete with special effects.
I think you would have a really trick server if you put in the Wyn, LDR, Tholians, Klingon, another race and introduce an Andromeda invasion on top of it... I'll help you with the research I have done, and give you all the work I did on the Tholians and their mods, and textures. I myself would have to tear myself away from SG3 to play on it... MB I shouldnt post this?
Post by: Cleaven on April 28, 2003, 10:33:51 pm
And not much neutral space so co-op will work.
Post by: FPF_TraceyG on April 28, 2003, 11:39:56 pm
Post by: jdmckinney on April 29, 2003, 07:14:05 am
I mainly put that option in because we've long wanted to do stuff with the missing races. It would require a new shiplist and considerable testing, especially if there were new scripts. So, let's keep that one on the table as "in development" but not appropriate for immediate release.
Castrin had been working on Andromedans and Tholians some time back -- you should compare notes with him. I think Moggy had some workups for Andros, too.
Post by: KOTH-Steel Claw on April 29, 2003, 07:25:58 am
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on April 29, 2003, 11:00:18 am
I'd always found the stock X-ships to be OTT in comparison to the non-X-boats...but one would expect that. In X vs. X combat, I found the battles every bit as enjoyable as battles involving non-x-ships. They required faster reactions times and thinking, but the battles were brutal and competitive. I'll never forget that night on the Triangle when I was "in the bag' and battling KOTH in x-ship combat. It was a blast!
I don't turn my nose up at the possibilities X-tech presents. I think there's some fun to be had there if given the chance.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 30, 2003, 08:26:02 am
Personally, I'm partial to the SFB X1 ships, and don't think they would create an imbalance when released in a campaign. However, that needs to be tested. The X2s might also be scrutinized for future custom shiplists.
My main purpose, as a campaign designer/admin, is to find reasonable Xes that can be used in the latest portion of a campaign, or in a specialized campaign (such as one with Andromedans) without causing a mass exodus from a server. X2 tends to cause that, the MIRV-loaded Z-CCX tends to cause that. Maybe SFB X1s wouldn't -- or maybe they would. Either way, there hasn't been much examination of X-ships outside of independent testing and match play.
Obviously, I'm going on the assumption the Xes are what we will focus our next light campaign on, based on my own preference and the feedback here. Now I'd like feedback on what form such a campaign/shiplist should take, so we have time to get it ready.
Post by: FPF_TraceyG on April 30, 2003, 08:58:30 am
For the shiplist, I recommend using the changes outlined elsewhere, that is, the X1 ships (released 2293), however, I also recommend retaining all the stock X-ships as well (released 2300). The effect of both types of ships need to be observed, in my opinion, in order to make a better evaluation. I would suggest running the campaign at one day = one game year. This gives players a ful ten days to accumulate enough prestige befire the first X-ships become available, and also allows for the creation of an environment that better simulates conditions in a long term campaign. This also gives 7 full days of evaluating X1 ships before the rest of them are available.
Post by: DH123 on April 30, 2003, 08:59:28 am
Quote:
I'd kinda of like a chance to test the FireSoul's X-refits. I'd also like to explore the possibility of creating x-ships that make sense if these prove to make none.
I'd always found the stock X-ships to be OTT in comparison to the non-X-boats...but one would expect that. In X vs. X combat, I found the battles every bit as enjoyable as battles involving non-x-ships. They required faster reactions times and thinking, but the battles were brutal and competitive. I'll never forget that night on the Triangle when I was "in the bag' and battling KOTH in x-ship combat. It was a blast!
I don't turn my nose up at the possibilities X-tech presents. I think there's some fun to be had there if given the chance.
Can't an "X" variant of any ship be made simply by:
+50% Warp
+50% Shields
- Ph-1 swapped for Ph-X
- Point Defense increased (Ph-3 swapped for Ph-G within reason, additional AMD/Plasma D added. This seems to be the only subjective variable)
I've done this with the Battlecrusiers of different races in my TNGish mod to represent the "legacy" ships (many Mirandas and Excellsiors were still around in the Dominion War). I kind of makes sense as though a BCJ or C7 with the X-refit above isn't quite up to the new XCAs of the 2300s, it still is pretty darn good.
Example:
Designation: K-zC7X
BPV: 259
Crew: 55
Marines: 20
Shield 1: 54
Shield 2 & 6: 45
Shield 3 & 5: 36
Shield 4: 36
Total Shields: 252
Movement Cost: 1
Turn Mode: C
Total Warp Power: 47
Impulse Power: 8
Aux Power: 4
Total Engine Power: 55
Battery: 6
Transporters: 6
Tractors: 4
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 4
Fighters:
4x Disruptor 4
4x Missle Rack B
2x Phaser G
2x ADD 12
10x Phaser X
What do you all think?
Post by: jdmckinney on April 30, 2003, 09:22:32 am
X1 implementation via SFB specs may achieve some of these goals, though SFB year first available dates for Xes would generally be too early, voiding much of the late era.
At the moment, the OP players and admins seem to be moving toward FireSoul's OP Plus Refit Shiplist as a standard. The more feedback he has on Xes, the better armed he will be to make balanced decisions about X implementation. Plus, if he does not want to tweak or balance Xes past a point (if at all), then anyone who wants to make their own custom shiplist could use the test results to guide their efforts.
To me, it's very important Xes be part of the OP game, but be reasonable. They should always be an admin or player's option to use or not, but at least if they were better tested and balanced, they would not be guaranteed campaign killers.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 30, 2003, 09:29:11 am
Quote:
I suggest starting a light X-ship campaign in late era, 2283. This gives players time to build up prestige before the X-ships become available, so that X-ships are being flown shortly thereafter just as it would happen in a long term campaign. Starting the campaign in late era also gives a better indicator on what effect X-ships have when first unleased into sea of players already well-stocked with late era ships, as you would expect in a long term campaign.
For the shiplist, I recommend using the changes outlined elsewhere, that is, the X1 ships (released 2293), however, I also recommend retaining all the stock X-ships as well (released 2300). The effect of both types of ships need to be observed, in my opinion, in order to make a better evaluation. I would suggest running the campaign at one day = one game year. This gives players a ful ten days to accumulate enough prestige befire the first X-ships become available, and also allows for the creation of an environment that better simulates conditions in a long term campaign. This also gives 7 full days of evaluating X1 ships before the rest of them are available.
Tracey, this sounds like a good starting point. My only concern is that SFCX is tentatively planning a 2-week run. If we expand that to 3 weeks, that gives us 10 days of pre-X and 10 days of X, roughly. Does that sound good to folks?
We would most likely keep the current revised Reclamation supply and economic settings, though perhaps ship prices could come down so people have plenty of opportunities to buy and try different ships, especially Xes against BCHes, DNs, and BBs.
What about shipyard production and delivery time on purchases? If we start with much more empire space than we had in Reclamation, that should help production. Should we also make deliveries immediate?
Any other feedback is welcome.
Post by: jimmi7769 on April 30, 2003, 09:36:36 am
Quote:
For the shiplist, I recommend using the changes outlined elsewhere, that is, the X1 ships (released 2293), however, I also recommend retaining all the stock X-ships as well (released 2300). The effect of both types of ships need to be observed, in my opinion, in order to make a better evaluation.
I'm sure all of the Klingons will be fighting tooth and nail for one of those Taldren DX's when they come out.
Post by: FPF_TraceyG on April 30, 2003, 09:37:00 am
Post by: jdmckinney on April 30, 2003, 09:52:37 am
Making a very large list of X-conversions from late-era ships seems to me to amount to a total mod along the lines of a TNG mod. There's certainly a place for that, but considering the prevalent attitude toward Xes, it does not really belong as part of a D2 server that progresses through eras. It's been shown in the past that once campaigns reach the advanced era, most of them suffer huge losses in player numbers, leaving the X-fans left to finish off a campaign that no longer has any sort of player balance resembling the field up to that point.
However, limited Xes per SFB make sense in that they are expensive to build and maintain, and many designs would be nearly identical, meaning you don't need as many. Also, they served a purpose in SFB of countering the Andromedans. For anyone wanting to do an Andromedan campaign, it makes sense to have some Xes to fight them with.
In D2 terms, unless you stop non-X production altogether, Xes will still be matched against "normal" ships and vice versa, whether PvP or solo or coop vs. the AI. As such, the Xes scream for some competitive balance.
Anyway, this is my take on the issue at the moment. It is informed by some past experiences and player feedback. Until I see indications Xes are thought of in a different light, it would be irresponsible of me as an admin to ignore players' preferences. I do think there can be room for Xes in some campaigns, but not unless players try them and find they add something without taking away much more.
Post by: jdmckinney on April 30, 2003, 09:56:55 am
Post by: jdmckinney on April 30, 2003, 09:59:53 am
Post by: Mog on April 30, 2003, 10:03:33 am
Two of the Taldren X heavy weapons could be utilised though. The MIRV rack could be placed on Kzinti ships - I would suggest replace a normal rack with 1 of these per ship. That way, it shouldn't be over the top and would give them a more specialised feel to their drone usage. The other weapon that could be taken into consideration is the Romulan Fast Plasma torp. As SFB has recently introduced the Plasma Sabot (faster plasma), the Fast Plasma torps could replace the G,S,R torps, giving the plasma races faster plasma at the expense of losing the flexibility of downgrading those torps. Given the power curves of the X ships themselves, this may not be a bad idea - perhaps have variants with normal plasma and variants with the new fast plasma.
Whilst it would be tempting to utilise the Heavy Disruptors and Photons also, this would leave the Hydrans at a disadvantyage, so probably best to not go there.
Just some thoughts of mine on possibilities.
Post by: jimmi7769 on April 30, 2003, 10:09:56 am
Quote:
Mace, I don't think the X1 ships in FireSoul's list include the Taldren D7X. The SFB-based DX is a different ship, and it remains to be seen how well or poorly it matches up against the other SFB-based X1 ships.
I KNOW!!!! I have Module X1 and know exactly what a real DX is and a DXD for that matter. I was referring to Tracy's idea to keep the Taldren X's in there and have them come out later after the real X's come out.
I was a joke about how all of us Klingons would be trading in our better ships for a worse one. Get it.....a joke. You guys....
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on April 30, 2003, 11:03:09 am
My thoughts on the subject are pretty much in line with Tracey's on this subject. I'd like to see a little pre-advanced era time to play some of the late era ships before we start getting to the first generation X-boats.
Sicne we will be looking to test some new designs, I think some the following should be instituted:
1. 100% trade-in value, 0% shiploss (read: you die, you lose nothing, or at least, very little). In my humble opinion, this promotes a more "balls out" style of PvP and I think this enhances the ability to judge the merits of a given ship.
2. Mercilessly "R"estrict the largely useless ships in the OP+ (or whichever) list to promote increased availability of the better and/or targeted test ships. The larger the shiplist, the more often the shipyard is loaded with stuff no one wants to fly. If we start in 2283, make sure all Early Era Ships are restricted or removed. Maybe dump everything not created after somewhere in the neighborhood of 2273 or '74. I know that as a Klingon, I don't want to see ANY of the smaller K-refit hulls in late era. We should only be seeing W and L refits. The dread and battleship K-refits won't be lost because they came later.
3. Since the campaign term is meant to be short, I suggest ship prices be very reasonable...probably "too low" by long campaign standards. CAs and X-frigates in the 7-10K range. BCHs and x-destroyers in the 15K range. Dreads and X-cruisers in the 25K range. Remember, we're trying to playtest these ships, not fight a "real" campaign.
I see no problem with including any and all of Taldren's X-tech. The Hydrans have the PhG2 and that's a nice weapon. The ability to jam all over the place at high speeds holding overloaded hellbores and/or fusions is nothing to sneeze at, either. My time in Hydran x-ships was never anything less than a blast. I'd rather have everything available. We can judge the merits of the weapons as we go.
I have said this before and I'll say this again...yes, flying X-ships vs. non-x-tech ships is easy and promotes lazy flying. X-tech on X-tech is anything but boring and lazy, IMHO. It's just different. There is power management. Mybe it's a little different or even a little easier, but it's there. It's faster, and perhaps more brutal. One mistake and you could be finished. Remember, we're not trying to supplant non-x-tech in the DV2 campaign setting. That's always goign to be there. We're trying to explore a workable/reasonable version of advanced era technology within the confines of the D2 environment (to the extent that thsi does not already exist).
Post by: jdmckinney on April 30, 2003, 11:06:32 am
Post by: DH123 on April 30, 2003, 11:07:03 am
Quote:
Taldrens X ships are abominations, especially the ones with their "X-tech" The ones that Firesoul has put in his shiplist are a lot more balanced to each other. They will still overpower a non-X late era ship of equivalent size, essentially acting as a ship of higher class. A CLX should be equivalent to a BCH, a CAX (CCX) equivalent to a DN, and should be priced accordingly imho.
Agreed about Taldren's X-Weapons. The New weapons DO give us the Wonderful ability to MOD the game to a post-advanced/TNG era, but they should be avoided in "early" X-Ships. Use blue Textures and Heavy photons become quantums, G2s are Pulse Phasers, etc . . . I can truely see an all eras server being possible with X3 and X4 ships.
The idea of X-Refitting Late era ships just makes sense. The C7 hulls would be good for a decades after 2277 and would still be in service way beyond 2300. Again, how many Mirandas and Excelsiors fought in the Dominion War?
FS is right about the PH-G Conversion as this is tha only issue that is subjetive, but it doesn't take that much common sense to know what is unbalancing (unless you're the guy who designed the Z-CCX
).
Post by: jimmi7769 on April 30, 2003, 11:14:29 am
Quote:
I get the joke. I just don't get your reference to a weaker DX (the Taldren D7X). It's not in FireSoul's list. Unless he changes his list (or has changed it), the only Taldren X1 I think is going to remain is the Z-CCX, though under the CCX2 name. So, the joke is about a non-issue as far as I'm concerned, and I thought perhaps you were not aware of what was and wasn't in the list. Excuse me for trying to clear things up.
You're excused
Post by: Fluf on April 30, 2003, 11:16:41 am
Quote:
Taldrens X ships are abominations, especially the ones with their "X-tech" The ones that Firesoul has put in his shiplist are a lot more balanced to each other. They will still overpower a non-X late era ship of equivalent size, essentially acting as a ship of higher class. A CLX should be equivalent to a BCH, a CAX (CCX) equivalent to a DN, and should be priced accordingly imho.
Two of the Taldren X heavy weapons could be utilised though. The MIRV rack could be placed on Kzinti ships - I would suggest replace a normal rack with 1 of these per ship. That way, it shouldn't be over the top and would give them a more specialised feel to their drone usage. The other weapon that could be taken into consideration is the Romulan Fast Plasma torp. As SFB has recently introduced the Plasma Sabot (faster plasma), the Fast Plasma torps could replace the G,S,R torps, giving the plasma races faster plasma at the expense of losing the flexibility of downgrading those torps. Given the power curves of the X ships themselves, this may not be a bad idea - perhaps have variants with normal plasma and variants with the new fast plasma.
Whilst it would be tempting to utilise the Heavy Disruptors and Photons also, this would leave the Hydrans at a disadvantyage, so probably best to not go there.
Just some thoughts of mine on possibilities.
Nice ideas there Mog. I see no problems with the Fast Plasma and putting 1 Mirv on the Kzin ships. I intend to do some playtesting tonight with Firesouls list and see how the 1st Gen X's fair against each other. My problem with the nerfing of the CCX and the G rack implementation is still bothering me and I intend to come up with a balanced alternative.
Just in my fights last night on LB3, against Matsuaksi, Tao, and Stimpy in their Lyran DBCP's, I was at a severe disatvantage. Granted I was flying a HWDV vs a HeavyBattleCruiser. However in all these matches, I was unable to hit them with a drone, even having 12 drones and all 6 Mastiffs firing. I cant imagine getting into 1st Gen X's and all the extra PPD and not being able to even use my drones. Even though one Mirv rack might not help, its 4 more drones I can put in the air so that maybe at least one will hit.
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 30, 2003, 01:57:48 pm
The Attack of the Andro Amazons or T&A's...heh...
Give all the women Andro's.....when they defeat a man in battle ...he is added to their "harem" and must fight for his mistress....the woman with the biggest harem is the winner for women...the last single man is the winner for the men...
C'mon..you gotta like that!
Post by: FPF_TraceyG on April 30, 2003, 02:15:58 pm
Post by: Maxillius on April 30, 2003, 02:37:11 pm
Quote:
LOL!!! So who wants to be the first in my harem??
uhhmmmm.... you do realize that this thread's post count is going over 100 now, right?
AND I'M THE FIRST TO RESPOND HAHAHAHAHA
pick me pick me!!! hehe
Post by: DH123 on April 30, 2003, 03:26:42 pm
Quote:
LOL!!! So who wants to be the first in my harem??
You'd have to beat me first . . .
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 30, 2003, 04:17:02 pm
You could at least offer some token resistance...LMAO
BAH!
Post by: jimmi7769 on April 30, 2003, 05:07:29 pm
Quote:
Why do I suspect you guys would just lower you shields....sheesh
You could at least offer some token resistance...LMAO
BAH!
KLINGONS NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!
Post by: Kroma_BaSyl on April 30, 2003, 05:27:24 pm
Quote:
LOL!!! So who wants to be the first in my harem??
and who wants to be first in mine?
Post by: Mog on May 01, 2003, 07:50:25 am
Post by: Kroma_BaSyl on May 01, 2003, 08:14:34 am
Quote:
Way to kill a thread, Kroma
Looks like I found my new cabin boy.
Post by: Mog on May 01, 2003, 08:29:38 am
Post by: Holocat on May 01, 2003, 09:34:53 am
Quote:Quote:
Why do I suspect you guys would just lower you shields....sheesh
You could at least offer some token resistance...LMAO
BAH!
KLINGONS NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!
This would explain all the scratches, abrasions, and minor to moderate brusing medical officers dealt with in the TV shows when klingons took an, erm, 'interest' in one another.
You can take the weather out of the internet, but not the seasons. Especially this season.
Holocat.
Post by: jimmi7769 on May 01, 2003, 11:13:34 am
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Why do I suspect you guys would just lower you shields....sheesh
You could at least offer some token resistance...LMAO
BAH!
KLINGONS NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!
This would explain all the scratches, abrasions, and minor to moderate brusing medical officers dealt with in the TV shows when klingons took an, erm, 'interest' in one another.
You can take the weather out of the internet, but not the seasons. Especially this season.
Holocat.
Enough of your banter InvisoCat!!
Post by: Maxillius on May 01, 2003, 03:12:06 pm
Quote:Quote:
Way to kill a thread, Kroma
Looks like I found my new cabin boy.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
Tracey, hide me!!!
Post by: Holocat on May 02, 2003, 11:20:38 am
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Why do I suspect you guys would just lower you shields....sheesh
You could at least offer some token resistance...LMAO
BAH!
KLINGONS NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!
This would explain all the scratches, abrasions, and minor to moderate brusing medical officers dealt with in the TV shows when klingons took an, erm, 'interest' in one another.
You can take the weather out of the internet, but not the seasons. Especially this season.
Holocat.
Enough of your banter InvisoCat!!
Bah! Go talk about sports with your friends, if you're so wound up.
And for people that are unaware, this is what that means: www.satirewire.com/news/may02/guy_talk.shtml
The invisocat sees all, and it sees that the season is spring,
inviso--, er I mean Holocat.