Print Page - Which SFC game is your favorite?

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 03, 2003, 07:40:26 am

Quote:

I'm not sure. I think to comment now would possibly invoke the Hiesenburg(sp--I know I mangled that one) effect.

Explain? I am not familiar with that name.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 03, 2003, 08:24:07 am

Heissenberg Uncertainty is a product of quantum theory and essentially states that it is impossible to know both the position and momentum of an atomic particle, because the act of observing one changes the other.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 03, 2003, 09:12:37 am

Ah.. that one. Ok.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Karnak on March 03, 2003, 12:27:51 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
last time ajtk.. my only point in responding to you is simply this: there were many factors to why sfc3 has not sold as well as people had hopped - you cannot pin it on any single thing. just as if i were to sit here and say (if sfc3 was successful) that the sole reason for its success was the rule change. that just is not true. most people bought/buy sfc because a) its trek and b) its the best game out there pitting trek ships against each other. it really is that simple.

Games like Battlefield 1942 were voted PCGamer's game of the year for 2002. They did not need a movie to help it along. Similarly, Ensemble Studios has sold a gazillion copies of their RTS Age of Empires series with their latest version, Age of Mythology, bringing in sizeable revenuse to bulge Microsoft's coffers. Why? Because, Bill Gates stuck with the same basic RTS formula for all the games. Even LucasArts paid for the rights to use AoE's RTS model for its Clone War campaign game last summer. This is why Age of Empires series lives on even after doing 3 releases in, I think, 4 years, about the same time period of the SFC series. You build a niche product that sells and you stick with it. This is why MS never needed demos to get people excited about their games. I certainly don't remember a demo for AoM.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
See.. if rule sets where the ONLY reason for sfc rise/fall, then you fail to talk about is the success/ lack of financial success of Orion Pirates. It was a stand alone expansion pack which actually comes to the closest to emulating sfb.. i do not see many people playing it while it is superior to eaw in every aspect.

regarding marketing, etc.. it could have been bill shatner or patrick stewart and it probably would have flopped - period. this goes much deeper than what you think.

that said, however, if you were to do your marketing research - you will find that the people with demographics lean toward the tng - like it or not. i am by far a tmp person more than tng (do not try to equate tng/tos with sfb/nonsfb rule sets - that is false.. im talking about trek - not rule sets) and i even realize it.

if you stick your head outside of this community and look around at other games and what takes to drive/ build them - it is simple economics that regardless of what rule set, there are issues. (there are more people playing total annihilation now than sfc2 - and TA came out a couple of years before sfc2 - and thats not talking about games like rainbow 6 or even mech warrior 3 or 4).

finally.. its not so much being antisfb as it is saying that things can be improved on.. if that is antisfb - then hey, ill wear that badge proudly simply because sfb is not sacred scripture or text. its an evolving rule set which may work great for pen and paper stuff.. but many, many things change or need to be changed.. or can be improved on with the use of a computer.

if you like 100% pure sfb straight up with no adaptations, then i do recommend www.sfbonline.com (i think thats it). the fact remains, that even with sfc1/2/op, there is more different with it and sfb than similar. why? because the game is of realtime nature.

one last thing about this "poll" regarding scientific and nonscientific.. i would say that this forum represents a skewed segment of the population - just as most any forum does. this is a fact, not opinion. so before anyone takes anything from it- i would caution against it. that would be regardless of the results.

so ajtk - please vent your anger some where else. the "fact" is, there are many, many things that effect the situation.

Excuses made to hide the problem will never solve the problem. Based on your track record in the CIC regarding Drone-G rack/SFC3 issues, and, on these forums, you have yet to grasp this principle.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 03, 2003, 12:47:12 pm

I posted this elsewhere in response to something Nanner mentioned regarding OP. I think it has some weight in this thread, as well.

---------------------------

OP's status is not solely due to "politics." If the D2 had gotten reasonable patches (show of progress, not full-fledged perfection), people would likely have stuck with it. At one point, there were 3 "major" servers trying to share players and schedule around each other: The Triangle, Slave Girls, and Rook's Tavern. The admins were making headway, but most of the time the campaigns would degenerate into flamefests because of the speed bug and the inability to reliably take and defend territory. This has not changed one bit in a year.

Off topic: why is it apparently such a sore spot with Taldren when OP's D2 comes up (or an ignored topic, at least)? Is it that they feel unjustly ridiculed for the lack of D2 fixes? Is it that some of the criticisms, though harsh, are spot-on about Taldren dropping the ball and failing to keep a promise? Is it that they just don't want to discuss a dead project? Let's get to the heart of this ugly thing. If there were progress being made on OP D2, people wouldn't feel the need to bring it up. Can we at least agree that more could have been done? Is there any hope more WILL be done?

"Politics" aren't the real problem with OP. X-ships can't be blamed for everything, though they were certainly a lighting rod. People bashed SFC3 much the same as they did OP, yet people are enjoying it. OP has a set of major flaws that need to be addressed. Until then, it can't be fairly judged as a success or failure. I, for one, am convinced it has a dedicated following based on the reactions to the OP+ shiplist and Evil Dave missions, yet almost universally everyone says they don't play it because of the D2 bugs. There's more potential there if only the D2 got some decent attention.

------------------------------

That said, I think OP would have sold more copies if its D2 had been fixed inside of a year. I am certain a number of people who adopted a "wait and see" attitude about it, much as they have with SFC3, would have ended up buying OP if its D2 could support the sorts of campaigns people want to play. That's one thing I think Taldren and/or their publishers have failed miserably at: looking at what is popular in D2 campaigns and enhancing those aspects for OP and SFC3. In many ways, D3 is a step back in that respect, even while it steps forward in others.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 02:07:08 pm

you have some good points nomad.. i think that several are valid - however i do believe deep down that it was those lighting rods or excuses which some people used as political whipping post to not support OP and do what ever. i remember the discussion very vividly about why some people would "never touch op" (many were are the same who oppose sfc3 in many form) - even though at the time of release the code base was by far more stable. remember all the post about the community splitting and what not?

some people can argue that op being a stand alone could have effected the end result.. but again, like battlefield 1942 or spearhead (Both were stand alone expansion packs to a degree - yes, you had to have the older copy - but the installation and price of these expansion packs were the same as the game its self) prove other wise that the business model can work.

who knows.. maybe there is somthing for the sales of op which none of us know or understand about it. i do know that within the sfc realm that as with any game - you make it what you want it to be. i believe that if people wanted to make op work (just as you and the other people who ran op campaigns did), it could have happened. (that is where the politics comes in)

one other issue about the whole OP patch process.. taldren was working on sfc3 during the last few months.. anyone think that their efforts were on patching and developing sfc3 and that the op patch had to be on hold until sfc3 was to a certain point? that is my bet regarding taldren.

finally, karnak - the reality of the matter is i understand the process about g-racks, etc too well. i understand the implications of what many were trying to pull in the name of sfb. (hence my problem with rules lawyers)

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: DiggityDank on March 03, 2003, 02:26:20 pm

Quote:

finally, karnak - the reality of the matter is i understand the process about g-racks, etc too well. i understand the implications of what many were trying to pull in the name of sfb. (hence my problem with rules lawyers)

LOL, the king of the instigators talks of other folks 'pulling' stuff...
Oh My Freakin' God that is too funny!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 02:47:37 pm

yeah dank.. i am the one instigating stuff.. yup.. uh huh.. thats me.

::rolls eyes::

i operate on 2 premis

a) never make an argument personal
b) only respond - do not start threads.

thanks.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: DiggityDank on March 03, 2003, 02:56:49 pm

Quote:

i operate on 2 premis

a) never make an argument personal
b) only respond - do not start threads.

thanks.

You must be very proud of yourself.

Oh I was thinking of the past...

Commando ships, 'minimaxing' (still laughing over that one), etc...
Most of these 'comments' led to nerfing of the Klingon shiplist.
This happened as a result of posts you started.

Hehehe, Keep on rollin' 'em bud

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 03, 2003, 03:00:48 pm

Nanner, I totally accept that Taldren had (and has) better things to do (read: paying work) than patch the OP D2. However, purely from the standpoint of the OP players/admins pre-SFC3, we tried and tried to make it work, but kept running into the same basic problems we couldn't solve without a D2 patch. The frustration level was sky-high for all concerned, and contributed to the early exit from this community of several key players whose contributions are sorely missed.

In a perfect world, OP D2 would have worked fine out of the box. In a not-so-perfect yet desirable world, Taldren would have gotten paid to fix it by a year ago. In the real world, nobody got what they wanted, except maybe the people who wanted to see OP fail, though even they probably were hurt by the mess in the long run.

So, what it comes down to for many who have struggled on in hopes that OP D2 would someday be fixed is we just want to see what Taldren could do with it given a chance. It may never be all it could be, but it could be pretty solid given a bit of effort.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 03:12:37 pm

Quote:

Oh I was thinking of the past...

Commando ships, 'minimaxing' (still laughing over that one), etc...
Most of these 'comments' led to nerfing of the Klingon shiplist.

Keep on rollin' 'em bud

nice to see the topic moving off hand - but hey, ill give a stab at this to make a few points/ corrections.

becareful.. do you really want to know where that term came from? somone might not (the original person who posted that statment). then again, maybe they do not care. (which im not saying it untrue, because it what was occurring with the exploitation of transporters, etc was/is a statment of fact - which gets into the intended design of the game and or campaign - which is essentially in the hands of the server admin).

how were the ships nerfed in the first place? you cannot tag any single (or multiple) item to any one person. the person(s) in charge of what ever decision has a mind of their own to make what ever decision. if there is an issue with a specific decision - then you need to take it up with a specific server admin if that is the case.

if you are talking about design issues with the game - again, it is foolish to think that any one person can dictate any decisions (save the designers them selves) as there are many, many things to consider. (most of which involve the designer's intended function for said weapon system, race or ship design)

in either case - those same rules which i mentioned applied. in none of the cases you mention was anything directed toward any person(s), but in fact particular issues.

at that point it is upto you and whom ever else what path you wish to take. if you wish to continue personal attacks against my self and being grumpy - that is somthing i cannot control.

thanks.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 03:19:10 pm

Quote:

In the real world, nobody got what they wanted, except maybe the people who wanted to see OP fail, though even they probably were hurt by the mess in the long run.

So, what it comes down to for many who have struggled on in hopes that OP D2 would someday be fixed is we just want to see what Taldren could do with it given a chance. It may never be all it could be, but it could be pretty solid given a bit of effort.

i agree with this in principle.. but i think you guys are underselling your selves. you guys did great work with what you had (which is what i was elluding to about making it work).

for the record (and back on topic).. here are my preferences in games..

SFC3
OP
SFC1
SFC2 (at the bottom mostly due to the poltiical nature).

good luck in the future. i hope to see a resurge in OP personally.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Karnak on March 03, 2003, 03:26:00 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
finally, karnak - the reality of the matter is i understand the process about g-racks, etc too well. i understand the implications of what many were trying to pull in the name of sfb. (hence my problem with rules lawyers)

Well, this how I see things from the perspective of someone that only started playing EAW seriously since last summer and come from a non-involved race, the ISC.

1) G Drone Racks Issues:
Nanner and other get into a debate about G racks and suddenly out of nowhere an "instense" dislike for the Feds arise that put a stigma of Fed players everywhere. So, either a) the Feds were trying to keep a weapons advantage or b) All the non-Fed players don't know what they are talking about. Sound to me like they were trying to "pull" some fairness into the game over your objections. If you need an example on how the G rack will be fixed in dyna play then you should take a look at Dizzy's upcomming SG3 dyna when it comes out.

2) SFC3:
Nanner starts ragging on D2 about a month ago and suddenly the whole Fed community is up in arms and we got fleets leaving the CIC en masse. Looks like the "feet did the walking" on that argument.

Nanner, next time you post, use detailed, concrete and material facts, not abstract assertions in your "smoke and mirrors" show.

thanks,

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: LongTooth on March 03, 2003, 03:38:21 pm

good luck in the future. i hope to see a resurge in OP personally.

There wont be one if the OP d2 is not fixed

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 03:56:42 pm

Quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
finally, karnak - the reality of the matter is i understand the process about g-racks, etc too well. i understand the implications of what many were trying to pull in the name of sfb. (hence my problem with rules lawyers)

Well, this how I see things from the perspective of someone that only started playing EAW seriously since last summer and come from a non-involved race, the ISC.

1) G Drone Racks Issues:
Nanner and other get into a debate about G racks and suddenly out of nowhere an "instense" dislike for the Feds arise that put a stigma of Fed players everywhere. So, either a) the Feds were trying to keep a weapons advantage or b) All the non-Fed players don't know what they are talking about. Sound to me like they were trying to "pull" some fairness into the game over your objections. If you need an example on how the G rack will be fixed in dyna play then you should take a look at Dizzy's upcomming SG3 dyna when it comes out.

2) SFC3:
Nanner starts ragging on D2 about a month ago and suddenly the whole Fed community is up in arms and we got fleets leaving the CIC en masse. Looks like the "feet did the walking" on that argument.

Nanner, next time you post, use detailed, concrete and material facts, not abstract assertions in your "smoke and mirrors" show.

thanks,

a) g-rack issue.. this was a no issue which i had never heard of issue out of now where there becomes a political movment (and that is exactly what it was) to change them or alter them to "reflect the true sfb state" regardless of what the real out come/ effects are (the game is not sfb and altering or removing them to pacify certain sects is no more than a move to hamstring federation ships in the real-time environment). the "fairness" is rather subjective (as all balance is) - however between the rapid hex-flipping nature of the d2 and the style in which missiles dominate the game at the time - any such change cripples. if there were other issues which truly needed addressing - it could have been done on a server level.

to make it simple karnak - there was no need to request a change for g-racks in the first place. the stigma should have never been put on anyone - even my self for standing up against somthing as opinionated and political. the impacts of such a change are HUGE and do in fact cripple feds. the main (and only) issue were escorts - which simply needed a bpv bump to reflect their combat effectivnness

2) sfc3: my post stated the fact of differences between the two dynaverses in a thread that BASHED sfc3.. (funny how no one remembers that).

the two dynaverses were designed differently - sfc3 was designed with more pvp and less hex munching. like it or not, d2 is designed to avoid player vs player confrontation. i can flip more hexes if i avoid you and fight the ai than engaging you. d3 was designed where the persons have to engage the other or run scan missions which run longer than a simple death drag.

lastly - only 2 federation fleets "left" the cic - and in my view, the decision had already been made and again, there was a lot of political undertone.. and you ignore/ do not even mention the purpose of why it was created in the first place - that is to simply have a place for people to discuss stuff.. if those fleets desire to move - that is their wish and i wish nothing bad - but i have seen some of the things posted which was simply untrue.

i find it very amusing that for the most part people who play sfc3 can enjoy what ever game they desire.. however many who are left and refuse to try play sfc3 not only refuse to play it - but bash and harrass sfc3 crowd? dont believe me? read the d3 forums for your selves. much of the negative post about sfc3 comes from sfc2 people who have continually bashed the game calling it everything from "twitch" to "smiplistic."

in short.. anyone who stands in the way of certain elements of the eaw crowd get hung from their thumbs and their personalities raped (that is a strong but accurate description). this is why i abhore sfb/ do not wish to return to the eaw rule set. because of the arrogance and manipulation which that rule set seems to bring. (it did not in sfc1 - but somthing happened around the 2.006 patch where everything went political and was a power struggle to screw the other guy).

if you want to know/ understand partly of why what remains of the sfc community is disintegrating (and it is - much to everyone's shergrin) - that is a good place to start.

i have checked my facts, thank you.

no i do not keep a sheet or email copies like im sure some people do.. but then again, i do not go on an 11 page rant slandering someone either. funny thing is, ive seen some of you slander the main person responsible for most of the fixes in sfc. Thank God they see past that.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Zenister on March 03, 2003, 04:02:24 pm

Quote:

There wont be one if the OP d2 is not fixed

indeed..OP is my pick for favorite of the series..it just doesnt live up to the expectation due to glaring bugs..

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 03, 2003, 05:53:49 pm

Quote:

komodo is right on all points.

Kieran, op was what the community made it. there were by far more bugs with eaw than when op came out. this was a conscience decision by many in the eaw community to snub op. there might be a bug or two left in op, but nothing that could be over come if people wanted to embrace it and use it - but they decided not to. the decision to dump op was purely political. of course what i find funny to some degree is that op is more sfb like than eaw ranging from maulers to k-fx arcs. <shrug>

as far as the "immersive universe SFB ". i can almost garuantee with out a doubt there has been more written about trek than sfb. go to any book store for the past how many years and you can find on the self dozens of star trek books. just as with OP, however, it is what people decide to put into it.

does "sfb" have a good back ground with an intriguing story and missions- you bet! but that does not make it the lone game (let alone trek) with such a back ground.. nor does it mean a game cannot be successful without such a back ground. it is simply one of the things which make that particular game unique. it does not mean that its rule set is any better (or worse) than any other rule set. in fact, i would argue that if you looked at the bigger picture that many people might argue differently as there have been other successful trek games (although not many).

for what its worth, i do look at the facts - i simply do not put blinders on and keep an open mind to what makes a good game. however, that conflicts some people's perceptions, such as your self - more than likely because of differing back grounds, demographics and what we look for in a good game. end of story.

Heh...I could go the "wrong again..." route as you seem to like to, but I won''t.

There are some cool things about OP...extra weapons, ships and arcs (Klingon boom arcs are a big plus in my book ), but the main reason OP's D2 has basically died and never really caught on in the first place is because of the DV2 bugs caused by the wacky cartel implementation. I'm certain that if those problems didn't exist and neutral co-op wasn't a problem...almost everyone would be playing on OP dynas and EAW dynas would be a faded memory by now.

The looooooooong delay in OP patch pipline is another major reason for OP dying the slow death and/or never catching on.

There are quite a few people who play EAW who would have fought tooth and nail to get people to play OP dyna had someone bothered to fix the glaring problems that ruin OP dyna play. That said, there were some very cool OP campaigns that saw a very nice turnout...turnout rivaling the best EAW campaigns (at times). These campaigns flourished despite all the problems with OP. I wonder how much more popular it could have been if anybody could have been bothered to FIX THE FREAKING GAME.

Frankly, I think an SFC3 demo might have hurt sales. I'll bet many people who bought it out of curiosity (and have since shelved it) wouldn't have bought it at all. I think anyone who was going to buy it in the first place has probably already bought it.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Julin Eurthyr on March 03, 2003, 08:14:56 pm

Nanner:

I'd love to have an OP campaign where Admins / RMs can correct the following issues.

Let me see / know, in game the DV of a pirate hex. You know, how many missions I need to do so I can flip the hex to my pirate race... (note, the in game stipulation. It may be possible to extract that information and put it up on a web-map, which doesn't help people with one computer...)

Fix the "Federation" advantage of being abie to adjust their game speed. I do complain about the pirate ability to do the same, however, since all pirates have it, no side is disadvantaged...

Other OP issues, such as the patrol bug & inability to run coop missions in neutral space may be adjustable by mission scripts. Still, the above two remain...

Until then, let's not believe that a proper, fully functional OP Dynaverse server could be played without major issues please.

Oh, it would be nice to not have a reliance on pirates to determine the ability for an empire to control space. However, if it is decided that, bacause the name of the game is Orion Pirates, then I (and probably the rest of us OP fans) shall live with it.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Holocat on March 03, 2003, 08:31:12 pm

Well, I can't resist jumping in today, so what the heck:

I haven't, until recently, wrote very much on these boards at all. However, I do remember the heyday of OP, and sfc1 before it.

The people that state that the D2 problems in OP made it frustrating to the point of unplayablity are correct. It even stymied alot of fun in single player, given that the missions you ran seemed to do more harm than good. Nothing was more frustrating than coming out, victorious and bloodied, from a heated battle to discover that your incredible and valiant effort had managed to HURT your empire. It really rankled me when that happened. I did not know at the time that this was the cartel bug, but it struck with a ruthlessness that took me to my wits end.

What some others have said about the political tensions on these boards and among the players themselves is, from personal experience, far, FAR more true than many are willing to see. The D2 bugs were frustrating, yes. But what truly repelled me from the game, way back then, was the incessent and nonstop political rambling that happened. Drone-G racks. X-ships. Interfleet politics. Spying. Witch hunting. On both GSA and the Dynaverse, at one point it got so bad that I couldn't go *anywhere* without being accused of SOMETHING in less than a day. The whos and whens are pointless details; What ultimately mattered was that for every person that got on to the Dyna or GSA, two left because they were either disgusted with the 'community' or run out on rails, irrespective of whether they had done something or not.

I remember those witch hunts very well, and take them very personally. I was able to prove my innocence back then, but the atmosphere so disgusted me that after the third major incident, I left and never looked back.

I have begun to enjoy SFC again, after some time, and even tried GSA a couple times again. There were never more than four people with OP at any point in time, but they were a better cut of person than the dozens of self-rightous blowhards that populated the game before. It had lost its fanbase almost entirely, I saw, but I saw that as more of a relief than a disappointment.

In this personal case what the few have been saying is true; I was repelled because of the politics, and not because of D2.

The somewhat subjective truth,

Holocat.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 04, 2003, 01:51:23 am

Quote:

There are quite a few people who play EAW who would have fought tooth and nail to get people to play OP dyna had someone bothered to fix the glaring problems that ruin OP dyna play. That said, there were some very cool OP campaigns that saw a very nice turnout...turnout rivaling the best EAW campaigns (at times). These campaigns flourished despite all the problems with OP. I wonder how much more popular it could have been if anybody could have been bothered to FIX THE FREAKING GAME.

The mind almost boggles. If the OP-D2 was merely difficult to work with, like the EAW D2 is, then we would all be playing OP-D2. If all the effort that went into OP servers could have been used to make a functioning server better, instead of a broken system barely playable, then everybody would have been clearly convinced of the necessity to move on to OP, because it would be much more enjoyable. Instead OP-D2 was not just an uphill battle (like EAW) but an assault up a cliff in a blizzard.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Holocat on March 04, 2003, 02:14:57 am

Quote:

Instead OP-D2 was not just an uphill battle (like EAW) but an assault up a cliff in a blizzard.

I'm canadian. An uphill battle in a blizzard is too bad.

Yes, I voted for OP,

Holocat.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: ragamer on March 04, 2003, 05:38:03 am

Well from the SP POV answer is clear:

SFC2:EAW

Why?... Because of content... pure and simple... Number of WORKING DIFFERENT MISSIONS... You may think.. but OP has
more missions... But all the bugs just cripple it... I'm making this analysis base on ACTUAL status...not on vague
rumors of new patch or whatever.

From DYNA POV?... To be honest... I'm quite dissapointed with it... It just another way of online matches (with even
additional bugs...) I think that there is little difference with a GSA ladder (unless of course you like painting things
blue

).

- On the TNG vs ToS issue:
Nanner, It's true that this poll tells: "The ppl who visit this forum prefer SFC2:EAW", but... What do you think that
the "new TNG blood" could think of this new SFC3 game?...

- On the "Demo prior to release could have boosted the sales":
Demo?... The actual SFC3 is a DEMO itself compared to the amount of content of previous SFCs. Again this new title
have a "Let's paint the universe" scheme DYNA with even MUCH LESS mission variety... And SP experience?... The average
player can finish ALL the original missions in about 10 hours (Of course with ADMIRAL difficulty)... Do you still
think that this SFC3 can be EVEN CALLED a FINISHED SFC series game?. What could Taldren show in their DEMO?... A buggy
software... nothing else... Activision couldn't take that risk because they know that pressing a developer with tight
deadlines is the better way to cripple a game with bugs... They thought (Activision) that the NEMESIS film could attract
some trekies into the series... Well I haven't seen the film, I'm a SW fan, but looking at the commentaries... A phrase
that very good friend of mine told me after seeing "Insurrection" (another one that I didn't see) come to my mind: "The next
trek film will be released directly to video"... So the Activision option was like "Docking your boat to the Titanic
looking for a safe place to rest"

- On the review "jugdement":
The only reliable info that you can extract from a review is a fair estimation of the graphical look of a game and
the presence of mayor bugs... The rest?... Just subjective information... To have a good review, the reviewer need to
have some "Game Industry History" knowledge to be able to compare... And seriously... Most of the reviews are HEAVILY
biased toward sponsors because they are a POWERFULL tool to create expectations... and thus increase sales.

Don't be fooled by my commentaries... I like SFC series and I recognize that Taldren is doing a good customer support...
But their released products since EAW are in a descendant quality tendency... And I'm very critic with Taldren to accept
the conditions under they had to develop OP and SFC3 because they were draconian... Maybe they couldn't avoid them
(they had bills to pay) but at the end they agreed to reuse their EAW engine in 2 partial products that, beside the
new graphical content, doesn't contribute with anything new to the series. You can argue that SFC3 included ship
customization to the serie... But what's the point in customization if the role of your ship is always the same because
missions are always reduced to "kill something and survive". The overall customization option is reduced to an optimization
of the loadouts done by the Dyna Aces (in SP with the dumb IA, you don't even need to think which loadout to use) that
get published on a web site for the noobs to use... Coupled with the drastic reduction in tactical options (i.e. Streamlining
Interface concepts... a.k.a. Dumbing the game down) you have the results in the actual D3... Where you can see things
like the "non trek looking" AMM filled MINE BOAT and weirdness like that.

As a conclusion... SFC series with EAW dyna concept is and should be DEAD. If Taldren wants to refloat the series to
turn it again a profitable project, IMHO, they should remade Dyna to a REAL strategic battleground where ships and fleets
need to change based on the STRATEGIC GOAL they want to achieve.

AJTK... You are my man/woman...

It's good to find some1 that has some objective thinking around.

P.S. As usual, excuse me for the length and barbaric english.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 04, 2003, 06:51:39 am

Quote:

Well from the SP POV answer is clear:

SFC2:EAW

Why?... Because of content... pure and simple... Number of WORKING DIFFERENT MISSIONS... You may think.. but OP has
more missions... But all the bugs just cripple it... I'm making this analysis base on ACTUAL status...not on vague
rumors of new patch or whatever.

What about my works for OP? Have you considered those?
I was once told " who do you think you are? Do you think you are the OP messiah and will fix it all single-handedly? "
.. .. well.. .. no. But I would like to think I made a big difference, and that I'm not done yet.

Quote:

From DYNA POV?... To be honest... I'm quite dissapointed with it... It just another way of online matches (with even
additional bugs...) I think that there is little difference with a GSA ladder (unless of course you like painting things
blue ).

Heh..

D2 isn't something I have played in ages. I may have to start twiddling with scripts with focus of making things better. ..
Also.. I've had *excellent* ideas as to how to make a SQL-capable D2 a lot more interesting. I will need to toy with it further and set up a "proof of concept".
..but I would like to think that my ideas could add depth to any D2 campaign, complete with background storyline, some actual news, and maybe.. just maybe.. the ability to buy refits.

.. right now I have other projects to finish, start, and finish.. .. and start and finish. 1 project left to go, 2 more slated to do. The above would be yet another one. .. I consider the OP+ shiplist project complete.. pending patch release.

Quote:

As a conclusion... SFC series with EAW dyna concept is and should be DEAD. If Taldren wants to refloat the series to
turn it again a profitable project, IMHO, they should remade Dyna to a REAL strategic battleground where ships and fleets
need to change based on the STRATEGIC GOAL they want to achieve.

..well.. Fans like me won't let it die, don't you see?

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 07:44:42 am

You know, I sure hope some folks at Taldren take note of this thread. There are some seriously good pros and cons coming up here that may help them in future patch or development decisions.

FireSoul, I think you and "Evil" Dave have done wonders -- more in the last 3 months than Taldren has done for OP in over a year.

I'm actually quite surprised that so many people have chosen OP as their favorite, or qualified their choice with "if OP D2 worked, then ..."

Nanner, thanks for the kudos about the hard work the OP admins have done in the past, but someone was absolutely correct in saying if our hard work could have gone into improving the campaign experience rather than trying to make it half-workable, OP D2 would have been much better. Heck, just within the SFCX group we have come up with at least 2-3 campaign ideas, "major" and otherwise, that would be really cool, only to have to put them off indefinitely because of the D2 bugs. I'm sure the other admins could say the same. We've also come up with ways to work with what we have in the cartel layer issue only to be confronted with the speed bug, inability to do neutral coop, broken missions, etc. In the end, some of us refocused our energies elsewhere, like SFC3 testing, because we couldn't make any progress with OP in its current state.

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter. We want to have a dedicated shiplist (specialized to our needs and "corrected" per SFB specs similar to FireSoul's list) and specific VCs (rather than the general each planet = X pts., each base = Y pts., etc.).

One more thing I'd like to bring attention to is SQL for OP. Unless things have changed drastically since I was last "in-the-know," OP DOES NOT HAVE SQL. Then again, EAW's SQL support, I think, is still considered in a test state. SFC3's SQL support seems to be getting there, but still unofficial. If the other two are going to have SQL support, OP should, too. Castrin has a lot of things he would like to do, but can't without SQL.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 07:55:02 am

Oh, and I also agree that the D2 system is essentially obselete or behind the times, but considering it is the best tactical map game we have (better than D3 at the moment), it is at least workable when the bugs aren't ruining things.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 04, 2003, 08:00:01 am

Quote:

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter.

You better warm up that campaign engine if my guess is correct.

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 04, 2003, 08:13:13 am

Quote:

You know, I sure hope some folks at Taldren take note of this thread. There are some seriously good pros and cons coming up here that may help them in future patch or development decisions.

FireSoul, I think you and "Evil" Dave have done wonders -- more in the last 3 months than Taldren has done for OP in over a year.

I'm actually quite surprised that so many people have chosen OP as their favorite, or qualified their choice with "if OP D2 worked, then ..."

NW and I have done things Taldren can't afford to waste time on.. .. so it's not really something we should compare. However, you are quite correct in saying that Taldren staff should see this thread ..
Indeed, "if OP D2 worked, then..."

Quote:

Nanner, thanks for the kudos about the hard work the OP admins have done in the past, but someone was absolutely correct in saying if our hard work could have gone into improving the campaign experience rather than trying to make it half-workable, OP D2 would have been much better. Heck, just within the SFCX group we have come up with at least 2-3 campaign ideas, "major" and otherwise, that would be really cool, only to have to put them off indefinitely because of the D2 bugs. I'm sure the other admins could say the same. We've also come up with ways to work with what we have in the cartel layer issue only to be confronted with the speed bug, inability to do neutral coop, broken missions, etc. In the end, some of us refocused our energies elsewhere, like SFC3 testing, because we couldn't make any progress with OP in its current state.

Quite right..
SFC D2 Admins have my respect and admiration.. .. no joke.

Quote:

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter. We want to have a dedicated shiplist (specialized to our needs and "corrected" per SFB specs similar to FireSoul's list) and specific VCs (rather than the general each planet = X pts., each base = Y pts., etc.).

EveryOne: I know something you don't know.. I know something you don't know...

Nomad: yes, feel free to use my shiplist. I want to wait till the patch is out.. but if you guys really want it, I can declare it officially completed and send you what I've got.

Quote:

One more thing I'd like to bring attention to is SQL for OP. Unless things have changed drastically since I was last "in-the-know," OP DOES NOT HAVE SQL. Then again, EAW's SQL support, I think, is still considered in a test state. SFC3's SQL support seems to be getting there, but still unofficial. If the other two are going to have SQL support, OP should, too. Castrin has a lot of things he would like to do, but can't without SQL.

Give me SQL support in OP.. and I'll give show you want I, a perl programmer and linux admin by choice, can do.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 04, 2003, 08:14:24 am

Quote:

Quote:

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter.

You better warm up that campaign engine if my guess is correct.

Toasty!!
.. are you one of those that didn't sign an NDA??
.. I sure did, way back when..

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 08:33:30 am

Well, if he's "guessing" out loud, I may just have to ramp up preparations, just in case.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 04, 2003, 08:41:53 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Mog on March 04, 2003, 08:46:31 am

Toasty, the removal of the speed change bug will mean little if the actual D2 operations don't work as they do in EAW.

We can come up with workarounds for neutral coop, but we CANNOT work around the cartel/empire interaction. For some strange unknown reason, players have to fly pirate as well as empire in OP. In order to raise DVs of a hex, that hex must be controlled by an allied cartel, BUT you cannot make all cartels allied to all empires, as you then get screwy results. So, players have to fly as pirates to run an unknown number of missions to make a hex their cartel and then they have to run even more missions as an Empire player to raise the DV.

Simply put - scrap the cartel layer. It's the main root of the trouble.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 09:11:23 am

I have to agree with Moggy about scrapping the cartel layer altogether, if it can possibly be yanked out. I've tried to come up with alternatives that would allow us to keep the cartel layer, but it seems like it is much more trouble than it is worth. If, instead, we could get the pirates onto the main map, or keep them as non-territory factions essentially able to flip enemy hexes neutral but unable to capture hexes, then we could roll with the rest. The biggest problem I see there would be having no economy for the cartels, but then pirate ships should be mostly small or rare, anyway.

So, as uninformed as I am about the true inner workings of the game code and server code, I see the following necessary minimum steps to make OP D2 workable:

1. Remove the cartel layer as a required field in the map files and server DB (possibly allowing a cartel layer on/off option).

2. Allow pirates to affect empire health (hurt enemy, boost ally), but unable to take territory on the empire map themselves.

3. Fix neutral coop in all scripts and some pirate drafting problems in assault/defense scripts (Evil Dave missions?).

4. Remove Fed/pirate speed bug (done?).

On step 1, I've tried it without success, but can anyone get a map file with all CartelRegion lines removed to work on an OP server kit? If so, does it fix cartel layer issues at all, or does it just act like the map has an all-neutral cartel layer?

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: ragamer on March 04, 2003, 09:39:05 am

Hey Firesoul... SFC community is one of the MORE IMPORTANT reasons why we can discuss now about SFC3, that's something
that I'm not putting in doubt... Ppl like you, Nuclearwessel (;)... not weasel... I know), arcticfire and so on have
been doing a LOT of good work... But I was talking about the base product...

Being a programmer myself I know what can be done with a good SQL connection... But now that I know better the Script
API... Can you imagine the wonders that could be coded if we know the DV of the hex from inside the script?... Damn...
a single byte value... just that and you can really translate to the tactical theater the Strategic Status of each Dyna
Hex.

And this is just with the actual Server Database... Imagine a DYNA+ where economic points need to travel from one place
to another to be transformed into player resources (ships, repairs, refits)... Then a new world of intelligence, piracy,
deep raids, counterstrikes, exploration and resource management could be open to us to battle for... ah just dreaming
I suppouse.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 04, 2003, 01:46:25 pm

ragamer: /quote "AJTK... You are my man/woman... It's good to find some1 that has some objective thinking around." /endquote

1)MAN
2)I am glad you liked my threads, thank you. You make some valid points as well.

Fire: We LOVE YOU, MAN!! Never doubt it. You and everyone else that is working/has worked/will work on EAW/OP.

As much as I wanted to, I dont abhor(sp) SFC3, even if I do think, IMO, it is largely responsible for the untimely demise of SFC. Nor do I abhor(sp) those whom dislike SFC/SFB, I simply disagree with them, and in some cases most strongly. I really do not believe I could find myself moved to actually HATE someone I have never met over something as simple as a game.

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: CaptStumpy on March 04, 2003, 04:15:49 pm

Quote:

Well, if he's "guessing" out loud, I may just have to ramp up preparations, just in case.

Just in case somebody's forgotten what was put on hold I thought I'd whet your whistles.

http://www.sfcx.net/tow/

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 04, 2003, 10:16:31 pm

Favorite SFC (Total Votes: 149)
SFC 1
10 06%

SFC2 EAW
64 42%

SFC Orion Pirates
43 28%

SFC 3
32 21%

Current totals

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: E_Look on March 05, 2003, 12:07:32 am

I voted for SFC1. I STILL get the biggest kick out of it and I do have OP and EAW installed alongside it. This is because I like single player skirmish/campaign modes, heavy on the skirmish. Though, if I wanted to play campaign more, OP/EAW would count more in my heart. SFC3 does not run on my system. I wish I could comment on it.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: TheSatyr on March 05, 2003, 02:53:13 am

I think the (possible) demise of SFC has nothing to do with SFC3...I doubt a GAW would have sold any better.

There seems to be a lack of interest in Star Trek these days. Nemesis bombed,SFC3 hasn't done too well either,apparently. I don't know how Enterprise is doing ratings wise.

The thing is,we are the hardcore SFC/SFB/Star Trek types. We don't exactly represent the general public. We still play games that the average player put on the shelf along time ago.

I think maybe a break of a year or two for SFC might be a good idea. The market just doesn't seem to be there for it right now.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 05, 2003, 05:16:58 am

Quote:

The thing is,we are the hardcore SFC/SFB/Star Trek types. We don't exactly represent the general public. We still play games that the average player put on the shelf along time ago.

And there in exists the crux; is there enough ST/SFC/SFB PC-Gamers to sell 500,000 units world wide within 90 days?

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kevlar on March 05, 2003, 06:44:08 am

Quote:

Quote:

The thing is,we are the hardcore SFC/SFB/Star Trek types. We don't exactly represent the general public. We still play games that the average player put on the shelf along time ago.

And there in exists the crux; is there enough ST/SFC/SFB PC-Gamers to sell 500,000 units world wide within 90 days?

Best,
Jerry

Maybe there are enough ST fans to mass buy a very good ST game with good media cover and elements with considerable appeal for them .
Nevertheless, what that market segment considers a good game isn't what would hook the SFC/SFB fans, considering the flak that SFC3 took on the forum.
GAW wouldn't have sold much better than sfc3, maybe even worse. Probably it would have been received very well in a market segment that represents the hard nucleus of the SFB fans, but it would never surpass that particular niche.

Tulmahk posted on the thread " whats next for SFC(3)" the following:

"Then we can drop the GaW/SFB ball-and-chain, and have a true STAR TREK game, free of the artificial constraints imposed by a 20+ year old board game that hardly anyone even bothers to play anymore."

I won't even say if he is right or wrong on the "artificial constraints" point. That would be firing the furnace even more. But he has a point on the plus than 20 year old board game argument. SFB model does not have that "crush appeal" to what can be considered a critical segment of the game consumers market (14-21 years), are a good portion of the game consumers of today and the great market of the next 10 to 15 years. I'm starting to think that even ST is loosing his appeal.

What I'm saying is that we are starting to become "burn out" in gerational terms. Since I'm 28 and a teacher I have that clear notion. Certain things have their own timming and SFB time might have passed unless someone adds something revolutionary like full 3 gfx and a Z-axis, but that would take the game even far away from SFB than SFC3.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Maxillius on March 05, 2003, 08:32:11 pm

Not necessarily. How much of a stretch would it be to consider 3-d movement and weapon arcs with the SFB rules in mind? I can imagine how dumb it would be for anyone to try to attack a Fed ship from the top or bottom!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 05, 2003, 09:16:31 pm

Apparently what passes for a true Star Trek game is mostly rubbish, at least from the point of view of somebody who finds Napoleonic miniatures, Panzer Blitz and SFB enjoyable. I think that Sid Meier is responsible for a lot of angst since he made Age of Rifles and let me first enjoy PC games.

Anyhow if there is nothing else to look forward to except FPS and RTS games based on how quick your reflexes are then something is going to be missing for a while. Patching OP will fill that void for a bit I suppose, but I don't see anything else on the horizon. A LAN version of OP would be useful too. Even very good looking games like ORB and Haegemonia still can't give you the same combined tactical and strategic multiplayer experience though.

Best not to think about the future in case it happens.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Scorpion on March 06, 2003, 12:14:08 am

BUMP!!

Title: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 01:09:40 am

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: Toasty0 on March 06, 2003, 02:25:13 am

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

Wasn't that released for the C64 too? Right around the time of PoR (Pools of Radiance) I believe.

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: TheSatyr on March 06, 2003, 03:06:55 am

Not even SFC1 sold 500,000 copies in 90 days...and that was the best selling game in the series.

I just don't see that as being possible...not for a niche game like SFC.

Does anyone know how many copies Bridge Commander sold?

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: TheSatyr on March 06, 2003, 03:12:10 am

Sid Meier is a freacking genius when it comes to games. I don't think there is ANYBODY out there in his class.

I think he has done at least one game in just about every game genre out there...and done them all well.

I do wish he could get permission to re-work Birth of the Federation,since he did mention that he was looking into purchasing the rights to all the old Microprose games...and was seriously thinking about remaking some of them.

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 03:33:42 am

Quote:

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

Wasn't that released for the C64 too? Right around the time of PoR (Pools of Radiance) I believe.

Best,
Jerry

Not sure. My power curve was zx spectrum 48k-Amiga 500- Amiga 1200- PC , so I hadn't great knowledge of the CBM 64 market Nevertheless, considering that every Microprose/LABS ( and Cinemaware too) tittle rocked on those days and that a success on one of the machines was, if possible, pacely ported to the other; probably it wes also released for the C64.

hmmm...this gives me a total Of topic idea.....a doctors degree tesis on the history of computer games ... now only have to convince the people that guide tesis to accept something so unorthodox .

edit: after a bit of research , I can say that you are correct, Pirates was released for the CBM 64 .

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: Toasty0 on March 06, 2003, 04:26:00 am

Quote:

Not even SFC1 sold 500,000 copies in 90 days...and that was the best selling game in the series.

I just don't see that as being possible...not for a niche game like SFC.

Does anyone know how many copies Bridge Commander sold?

I misspoke---that was 100,000 units...not 500,000 as I originally posted.

Btw, fwiw, SFC(1) sold 350,000 copies in its first year of release*. That is still 150,000 units shy of a "profitable" title according to Erik Bethke in his book " Game Development and Production " .

*Game development and Production, Erik Bethke--Chapter 3, pp24.

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 05:32:15 am

It would be interesting to have some numbers on the sales of SFC2; Op and SFC3.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Reptor7 on March 06, 2003, 07:05:32 am

OP. Yep, OP is my favorite. The GFL did a complete swich from EAW to OP, but the OP D2 problems and the attention/fixes that EAW received eventually had the GFL going back to EAW for a good reason.

Now, I do like SFC3, and it would be my favorite if there were more races and missions out of the box, and the beta patch getting yanked by Activision didn't help. I don't see any SFB rules arguments as SFC3 is it's own beast and stands on its own. There's room for both.

Actually, I'm kinda glad the SFC series has halted. Every time we get settled into a new game, a new one pops up and fragments the commuinity, followed by "this version is better than that version" arguments that further fragments the SFC community. We can finally settle in and get some gaming done, in the preferred version of our choice. And with OP finally getting the attention it deserves, I'll be flying ISC once again soon if the D2 is fixed, but I won't abandon SFC3.

Speaking of ISC (shameless plug), ISC Theater Centurions episode 8 is now showing:

http://isctheater.50megs.com

Enjoy!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: TheSatyr on March 06, 2003, 11:40:26 am

100,000 units in 90 days is certainly doable.

I think SFC3 came close to that. I've heard it sold around 90,000 copies so far.,which is better than OP supposedly did.(Heard around 80,000 total units sold for OP.).

But you do have to take sales figures with a grain of salt,since it depends on just where those figures are coming from. Different sourses give you different figures.

These are the general numbers I've seen for the various games in the series:
SFC1-around 450,000 units.
SFC2-around 250,000 units.
OP-around 80,000 units.
SFC3-around 90,000 units.(So far).

The problem with those figures is that it is never specified if these are world wide sales or just US sales.

Now...compare that to an RTS like Empire Earth which supposedly sold over 1,000,000 copies world wide. And I don't even wanna know how many copies of the various "Sims" games got sold.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 06, 2003, 12:33:13 pm

Quote:

Apparently what passes for a true Star Trek game is mostly rubbish, at least from the point of view of somebody who finds Napoleonic miniatures, Panzer Blitz and SFB enjoyable. I think that Sid Meier is responsible for a lot of angst since he made Age of Rifles and let me first enjoy PC games.

Anyhow if there is nothing else to look forward to except FPS and RTS games based on how quick your reflexes are then something is going to be missing for a while. Patching OP will fill that void for a bit I suppose, but I don't see anything else on the horizon. A LAN version of OP would be useful too. Even very good looking games like ORB and Haegemonia still can't give you the same combined tactical and strategic multiplayer experience though.

Best not to think about the future in case it happens.

Indeed.

Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC. We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter. I'm among the many who were incredibly disappointed by the fact that DV3 did little or nothing to improve on DV2, and in some cases, DV3 seems to have unlearned what was learned during the history of DV2. Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how that can happen. Over the past two years, we've playtested and developed DV2 to just about as far as it will go and the apparent result of that learning is....DV3!?

If I had to pick the single-most disappointing thing about SFC3, it's the implementation of DV3. Frankly, that's why I bought the game...in the hopes that DV3 would be better.

I guess I'm not sure why applying these concepts continues to fail.

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 06, 2003, 12:37:02 pm

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

A skipped a few-days worth of classes at university to play Pirates on my old 80286. Loved that game.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 06, 2003, 12:53:10 pm

Quote:

Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC. We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter.

.. .. yes, but to what extent? Introduction of completely non-SFB features like warping around annoy me..

.. as for a more in-depth campaign system, I have a few ideas I want to toy with. However I have more pressing SFC-related things to do right now, believe it or not. Stay tuned.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 06, 2003, 02:17:38 pm

The optimum solution would be for the game to have a slider between the rulesets....

SFB<----------()--------->TV

Imagine how much money could be made if they made everyone happy at the same time with the same game

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 06, 2003, 03:24:27 pm

The problem is, there have been more "PURE TREK" titles than you can shake a stick at, and about 99% of them have been less than stellar, to put it mildly.

Interplay, and then Taldren were the ONLY ones to make this, admittedly, "niche" game, which IMHO is far superior to ANY Trek game, ever. I even say that SFC3 is far superior to any Trek game, ever.

However, for some reason, those who are enamored of "Canon" and "Pure Trek" decided to come to this "niche" game, this SINGLE SERIES out of ALL Trek games and then decided that it needed to "Evolve" and "Grow" beyond its SFB roots.

Why?

The idea that its 20+ run of playtime is a hinderance is simply illogical. We obviously all have our opinions on the SFB system, and its effect on SFC, but the bottom line is that the first 3 titles were made on the SFB system.

Unfortunately, Taldren bowed to the pressure of the Non-SFB'ers who decided they needed to come "evolve" the one single series of games EVER made to emulate SFB and that started with OP. While the 1X ships were dead-on balls accurate for the most part, the 2X ships were simply TNG cheese in an SFB package. There were/ARE SFB 2X ships, that look nothing like the TNG inspired OP 2X ships, nor do they have all the cute weapons Taldren made out of whole cloth.

Now there is SFC:TNG. I wanted to hate it, as you all know, but it is actually a pretty good game. I still switch off between single player in TNG and OP as neither title has a WORKING dynaverse to date and is therefore mainly unplayable online.

I find it laughable that Taldren went out of their way to form a company that produced EAW, an ENTIRELY SFB based game, but some say that SFB has run its course and SFC should "evolve." Why then, didnt Iplay/Taldren simply make a TNG game in the first place? ANSWER: There are so many Trek/TNG games out there that the market IS saturated with it, SFB/SFC was a new and fresh venture and attracted many who were tired of "twitch/point and shoot" games. On Taldrens website it says SFC1 sold over 600,000 copies, and those are old numbers, I still occasionaly see SFC1 in a bargain bin somewhere on the cheap.

Indeed, how many have we seen on these very boards, such as theSea and many others who, after playing SFC, and having never heard of SFB have gone out and started playing SFB? Taldren even put basic SFB manuals and SSD's on the first 3 game CD's for heavens sakes, it seems obvious where they were headed.

But things changed and they had to go with Activision who took over the Trek lic. And Activision wanted a "simplified and streamlined" (no denials please, Ferell said it and others have said it. It even says it in that pc gamer review) game that was more "accessable (read dumbed down for the masses) with a TNG movie tie-in with Nemesis.

Nemesis has come, gone, and will now silently go to DVD with little fanfare, yet another nail in the coffin that B+B have layed Trek in. Likewise, the "HUGE new fanbase that the move to TNG and the Nemesis tie-in" were supposed to attract have apparently not materialized... most likely due to the general lack of interest in Trek in general these days.

Also, it would be fascinating (tho impossible) to see how many of those SFB fans who bought the 600K+ copies of SFC1 and the 250K+ copies of EAW DIDNT buy SFC3 and how that compares to the number of NEW players attracted by the TNG/Nemesis move. (Granted, OP tanked, but a stand-alone expansion 6 months after the original release was a slap in the face to many. AND a stand-alone expansion with all the same bugs as EAW and with all NEW bugs specific to itsself. If OP had released as a true "expansion" or 1 year after the release of EAW and/or especially in a somewhat playable online fashion I imagine its sales would have come much closer to those of EAW.)

Bottom line, the move to TNG might not have killed SFC, but it sure hasnt HELPED it as predicted by some. If it has only sold 90K copies WITH the TNG move AND the Nemesis tie-in, as opposed to OP's 80K(+/-), which would have, IMHO sold much better if some of the items listed above had happened) then it can be called nothing short of a HORRIFIC FLOP.

Hmmmm, how about, Taldren puts out GaW, andtimes it with a Paramount big-screen re-release of the DVD version of ST:TWOK for a movie tie-in with a ticket in each box... how do ya think THAT would sell, eh?

You would see 30-60ish Trek fans line up in DROVES for a TWOK re-release, and Activision/Taldren could even offer demo disk at the movie theaters (like blizzard did with WC3) with a newly re-worked for GaW Enterprise/Kirk vs Reliant/Khan duel on it!!

Now THATS a movie tie-in and would get all us old fart TOS/TMP Trek fans with plenty of spare cashe to buy the game, most likely in larger numbers than ever before. After all, SFC IS a niche product and many have probably simply never HEARD of it, much less played it.

To close, for those who are dissing old, niche board games, I give you a few examples...

D+D
(complete with EverQuest, DungeonSiege, and all the other D+D/AD+D titles based on it)
Harpoon(currently in release 4)
Battletech/Mechwarrior(currently in release 4, with 2 stand-alone expansions released LONG after the initial release, each with improvements and upgrades to keep it new and interesting.

Give it some time, let Taldren make some well-deserved cash on B9 and whatever Polaris is (???) and then return to its roots, with GaW.

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: Mantis on March 06, 2003, 03:48:13 pm

Quote:

Btw, fwiw, SFC(1) sold 350,000 copies in its first year of release*. That is still 150,000 units shy of a "profitable" title according to Erik Bethke in his book " Game Development and Production " .

*Game development and Production, Erik Bethke--Chapter 3, pp24.

I would like to see the breakdown of why it takes 500,000 copies to be a "profitable" title. That seem like a very large number if you have an efficiently run project. Is that in the book (if so, I may purchase it)? I know of companies that sell less and yet are profitable. I realize much of the revenue actually goes to licensing, but there should be a sizable chunk left. Of course Picard can't be cheap. What are all the "hidden" expenses? Now for a "large" shop, they may not look at anything less than 500,000 units since they are more revenue driven. Just an interesting topic to me

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: 3dot14 on March 06, 2003, 07:05:00 pm

Quote:

The optimum solution would be for the game to have a slider between the rulesets....

SFB<----------()--------->TV

Imagine how much money could be made if they made everyone happy at the same time with the same game

A slider! well! that's certainly a new one!

I have another idea. why couldn't Paramount do a TV series based ON SFB?!

The problem nowadays with trek is all the shows are disjoint, plotlines rarely, VERY rarely go through more than 3 episodes. Imagine the boost of a continous war and peace scale of tv show which SFB's history can provide?

The fact is Babylon 5 works/worked! and Enterprise doesn't (hasn't)!

That's proof enough TV fans would prefer to watch a prolonged struggle over "alien-ofthe-day"

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 07:59:27 pm

"D+D
(complete with EverQuest, DungeonSiege, and all the other D+D/AD+D titles based on it)
Harpoon(currently in release 4)
Battletech/Mechwarrior(currently in release 4, with 2 stand-alone expansions released LONG after the initial release, each with improvements and upgrades to keep it new and interesting."

I like the way you argument ATJK. In fact if I was defending a position similar to yours, I probably had used similar argumentation. That is why I like to counter argument you.
Still, I would have avoided the D&D argument. If actual D&D PC games exist, they own it to a many times criticised title called Diablo. Problem is that, as many like to point, Diablo was a ?dumbed? version of D&D.
Why was it so attractive then?

For starters, having played the old SSI/Westwood games, when I got Diablo my jaw almost broke just by looking at the graphics and sound. Diablo was light years ahead of something like Eye of Beholder III. The magic item generation system was also something really unique in the way it worked -and still works on Diablo II, granting immense replay ability to that particular game. Finally, there was the ?cherry?, the multiplayer options, especially the concept of a free online game network like battle.net.

If it wasn?t for the success of Diablo, I doubt that we would had the Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale series or Fallout?s and Torment on the time frame we had. Even Dungeon Siege and NWN. They are all sub products of the commercial success of a single game, that was in fact a rolled down and mass engineered version of the classic RPG game concept, strengthen by the expansion of the internet of course.

Even so, until Blizzard and Diablo proved that CRPG?s could be a great success when combining good graphical and sound capabilities, no other company was willing to economically support the development costs of a technologically advanced RPG game, despite the existence of the Dungeons and Dragons audience. Diablo also proved that RPG?s didn?t need to blindly follow a previously conceived universe or rule set.

The Diablo legacy is clear in NWN, and Bioware has bombarded with complaints of the Baldurs Gate super fans for having, in their words, ?dumbed? the game. Still, Neverwinter Nights was, and is, according to Bioware, their greatest success in terms of raw sales numbers. And one of the reasons for that success is the ability of NWN to attract even non serious RPG players like, and pardon the French, moi meme.
Baldurs Gate, on the other hand, proved that it was possible to cement a commercial success over the huge D&D fan base if the game engine had good graphical capabilities.

Both the games were ground-breaking in terms of GFX. Same happens with StarFleet Command 1, that for it?s time had a good mix of playability, graphical support and multiplayer. On top of that, there was also the modelling community that kept the game ?fresh?. The combination of all that probably made the game sell 300000 or 400000 units. When SFC2 was released, the game engine was starting to loose his grip, but still, the game attracted the large majority of the SFC 1 public, mostly because IMOH of the Dynaverse promise.

After SFC2, it is what we all know. OP wasn?t a commercial success for various reasons, SFC3 has its problems on a time where the ST franchise also deals with audience problems, but it?s also somewhat outdated in terms of graphical engine.

What I?m trying to point is that the first two SFC tittles had good sales because they were ground- breaking in their own terms, something that neither OP was or SFC3 is.

I can?t make a sociological analysis of harpoon?s player base. I play it sometimes and not dislike the game, but started to play it almost obligated when attending the navy officers course. After exiting the navy I play Harpoon gradually less. Still I don?t think that Harpoon and SFC are players of the same league.
You got me with the battletech and Mechwarrior though. Since I never bought or played any of them, I can say nothing.

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 08:03:30 pm

Quote:

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

A skipped a few-days worth of classes at university to play Pirates on my old 80286. Loved that game.

Hehe.,.. Happy to know I wasn't the only one skipping classes, in my case the eleventh grade, to play it:). Damn, I loved being an irresponsable teenager. One of this days I have to skip work just to play something.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 07, 2003, 08:33:50 am

Quote:

Quote:

Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC. We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter.

.. .. yes, but to what extent? Introduction of completely non-SFB features like warping around annoy me..

.. as for a more in-depth campaign system, I have a few ideas I want to toy with. However I have more pressing SFC-related things to do right now, believe it or not. Stay tuned.

-- Luc
FireSoul

The only think I like about the warping around in SFC3 is the ability to save time closing in on AI targets and the ability to get the hell of the map in a snap. I'd gladly live without that to see "tactical warp" either go away or be severely limited.

As for "to what extent." Good question...and one that will likely never be answered difinitively, though we have been trying for quite some time around here.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 07, 2003, 08:36:46 am

Quote:

The only think I like about the warping around in SFC3 is the ability to save time closing in on AI targets and the ability to get the hell of the map in a snap. I'd gladly live without that to see "tactical warp" either go away or be severely limited.

As for "to what extent." Good question...and one that will likely never be answered difinitively, though we have been trying for quite some time around here.

.. well.. there *IS* a "get the hell out of there" warping-out method in SFB: disengagement through acceleration.
.. but I'm afraid there's nothing for closing in on the enemies.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 08, 2003, 08:53:52 am

Very true, FireSoul. I say I like it only because it's convenient...not because I think it's terribly good for any other reason, including realistic or reasonable....heheh.

Like I said, I'd prefer it's use be severely limited...(far longer warm-up and exiting sequences or a finite number), or just taken out altogether. All the warp prancing gets on my nerves...heheh.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 09:20:34 am

The main issue I have against warping is..
..well..

.. because of it, you can't have seeking weapons.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 08, 2003, 11:10:50 am

Kevlar:
You are using a circular, i.e. "which came first, the chicken or the egg" argument. Without Diablo, D+D would be dead? Thats debateable, as there always have been D+D/AD+D titles on the pc, albeit nowhere near as easy for multi as D1+2 both are (of which I have both and play frequently D2 still.) so saying that D has kept D+D alive is questionable. I have Dungeon Siege, Baldrus Gate2 and Pool of R all in my cd holder, and all are FAR more indepth that D, but very difficult to play in multi so I stick with D for that. I agree, D is HIGHLY "dumbed down" compared to D+D, even more so that SFC3 is than OP, but not more so than SFC is than SFB in general.

However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that without D+D there would have ever been a Diablo, wouldnt you agree?

You make good points that SFC1 was evolutinary, and I myself would have liked to have seen a new engine sometime in the series. However, with such a short release span, having the same engine isnt really that bad, IMHO. I personally would rather have a new and improved game with the same engine every year than one game every 2-3 years with a new engine. Unless, of course we got the new game every 2-3 years with one or more expansions (NOT stand alone) in the intervening time to hold me over.

Anyway, thanks for replying and making points, I agree that it is nice to debate points and not feelings or vauge predictions.

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kevlar on March 08, 2003, 12:05:48 pm

you missed one thing that is important on my D&D/diablo argument: Time frame. I said that without the sucess that was diablo we would not have had more serious CRPG's on the timeframe we had them.

"However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that without D+D there would have ever been a Diablo, wouldnt you agree?"

Actually more or less. And I explain. Years ago I had the chance, on a fan chat, to ask Eric schaeffer if he was influenced by the D&D when designing diablo. He answered something like " The influence come more from tolkiens books." and later the said that with diablo blizzard wanted to step aside from the Dungeons and Dragons universe.

Course that when he look to things like "hitpoints" and such there a couple of legacy concepts in diablo taken from table games ( read D & D) . Even so diablo, especially Diablo 1, didn't followed a "solid ruleset"- still remember my fighter dishing out fireballs and chain lightnings almost as well as a wizzard.

You are right. The release span didn't left much time for critical engine improvements. Still, I feel that the sales problems with Op and SFC 3 are more related with less ground breaking features than anything else. we all know that games with great graphics tend to sell more, even if people only play them for two or three days.
If SFC3 had, for example, breath taking graphics it would have sold much better, despite whatever gameplay problems the game locks in itself. And probably Activision would had negociated either a expansion or a follow up tittle

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 12:25:19 pm

Quote:

"However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that without D+D there would have ever been a Diablo, wouldnt you agree?"

Noo.. Diablo was inspired by nethack.

.. nethack, however, was inspired by MANY things, including D&D.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Qob'nuH on March 08, 2003, 12:40:24 pm

Quote:

The main issue I have against warping is..
..well..

.. because of it, you can't have seeking weapons.

-- Luc

Actually,tactical warping is something that has been missing all along. It would be great to pull a "Picard manuever" or hear the engines straining to out-run heavy plasma. Definately should have been part of a Trek game. As far as seeking weapons , missles are ok but only as a "poor man's" weapon on freighters,pirates,escort shipts,etc.As for plasma, never made any sense as a seeking weapon ; HOW??? no guidance system (and people talk about "magic photons"). The speed of plasma should be increased so you'd have to warp to escape it,makes much more sense. The only true seeking weapon outside of missles should be a special Fed homing torpedo. I don't have a machine that can run SFC3 so i would like these kinds of things in OP (I know thats never gonna happen though).

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 12:47:31 pm

Quote:

Actually,tactical warping is something that has been missing all along. It would be great to pull a "Picard manuever" or hear the engines straining to out-run heavy plasma. Definately should have been part of a Trek game. As far as seeking weapons , missles are ok but only as a "poor man's" weapon on freighters,pirates,escort shipts,etc.As for plasma, never made any sense as a seeking weapon ; HOW??? no guidance system (and people talk about "magic photons"). The speed of plasma should be increased so you'd have to warp to escape it,makes much more sense. The only true seeking weapon outside of missles should be a special Fed homing torpedo. I don't have a machine that can run SFC3 so i would like these kinds of things in OP (I know thats never gonna happen though).

*hisss*.... not SFB! .. *hisssss!*

.. seriously, yes all good ideas but these things have no room in SFC:OP or other SFB-based game. It would break everything else that's already in there, all balanced and ready to go form of SFB.
.. SFC3, however, could have had all of those ideas no problem.

.. warping would be a definite nono in a SFB-based game, don't you think?

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Qob'nuH on March 08, 2003, 01:40:05 pm

"inspired bythe board game Star Fleet Battles"...."uses a great deal of the SFB material,but has also made some changes and enhancements" - Orion Pirates manual Introduction. (for those who may have lost their manual) Inspired by but NOT SFB. The enhancements I think are necessary to help capture the flavor of Trek,something a board game could never do. So for me , bring on the enhancements to make a great game even better.For a strictly SFB-based game, break out the card table.

I'm not looking to start a big argument ,just present a different point of view. It seems Trekkers and SFBers both really enjoy this game and i hope it will stay that way (How about a configuration menu to turn on/off features like warp,etc.)
Or at least that big SFB________ST slider!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 02:01:32 pm

Quote:

"inspired bythe board game Star Fleet Battles"...."uses a great deal of the SFB material,but has also made some changes and enhancements" - Orion Pirates manual Introduction. (for those who may have lost their manual) Inspired by but NOT SFB. The enhancements I think are necessary to help capture the flavor of Trek,something a board game could never do. So for me , bring on the enhancements to make a great game even better.For a strictly SFB-based game, break out the card table.

Yeah well, my arguments are simple:
1- there are plenty of canon ST games out there. This is my SFB one. Don't bug me and my game. This is how I like it.
2- without SFB there would be no SFC..
3- Have you tried my OP+ shiplist lately? That's all from SFB you know.

See.. SFC:OP is my favorite SFC. It's the closest to SFB of the bunch. ..

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: 3dot14 on March 08, 2003, 02:21:06 pm

Quote:

Inspired by but NOT SFB. The enhancements I think are necessary to help capture the flavor of Trek,something a board game could never do.

Exactly.

But that's why MOST of us SFB advocates WOULD HAVE WHOLEHEARTED SUPPORTED SFC:TNG (3) as SFC4. AFTER the SFB arc is COMPLETED in the form of GAW.

I know there ARE people who prefer the "trek" elements over the "wargame" type offered by SFB. Which is why I am glad SFC3 is made. But I am sorry to see it displaces the last hope of GaW. (Nanner, I am not saying it IS the cause, I am just saying it deferred GaW, possibly into oblivion.)

We are asking for GAW for the exact same reason SFC3 should get Dominion Wars expansion. It ISN'T complete.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 08, 2003, 02:53:37 pm

Kevlar:
I have no doubt that he wished to move away from D+D and base is on Tolkien, etc. Tolkien, Moorcock, Saberhagen, they all predated D+D, and no doubt INSPIRED D+D.

Also, if not FOR D+D, the appeal for Diablo would not have been there, as the genere would not exist.

And yes, hit points, spells, armor, D looks ALOT like D+D, which looks alot like the CURRENT Film version of LOTR, but not so much like what the books describe. (Original books, not movie adaptations.)

I dont NEED a "card table" to play a pure SFB game, I can fire up OP.

Its the closest thing we have ever had to date. Indeed, the ONLY thing we have had... Unfortunately it has been changed, distorted and streamlined prior to being completed. To say nothing of the prior 3 SFC titles actually being FINISHED, LOL!

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Mentat Jon on March 09, 2003, 09:26:42 am

easy sfc2 more ships more enemies of the Federation to kill

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 10, 2003, 09:24:56 am

Personally (this is totally subjective), I feel that SFC actually boosted SFB more than the other way around. I don't know if the Interplay/ADB contract stated the SFB material had to be included, but I bet it got ADB more than a few new customers or reintroduced old ones to the game. I have bought all the mainstream (alpha sector) SFB modules of the current ruleset from ADB's site. I don't even PLAY SFB anymore, and didn't have a ton of opportunities to do so in the '80s when I WAS playing. Those SFB products are a wealth of information for SFC mods -- I know that much, at least.

The discussions about D&D don't really sway me much either way; it was (and is?) arguably the most popular RPG ever, and would have eventually had a lot of successful computer games based on its basic ideas. I also don't buy the simplified ruleset comparison, since SFC was already using a certain level of depth. It's one thing to take a simpler game and make it more complex as the medium and players become better suited for it. It is quite another to simplify a solid game, requiring less of its players. Now, I don't feel that SFC3 was solely a simplification (some things like more gradual range/damage tables just make better sense when you're not tied to dice rolls), but it was certainly perceived as "dumbed down" by a percentage of its potential audience.

About the shows and such, I'd have to agree a well-written wartime Trek show would be a much bigger draw for me than Voyager or Enterprise have been. DS9, in my opinion, was absolutely the best Trek for about 2 years during the meat of the Dominion War story arc. Sure, there were diversions and filler stories, but what really made the show worthwhile was the almost Shakespearean politics and character tension that served to fuel the battle scenes that so many sci-fi fans enjoy. A similar treatment could be done with an SFB-based war story, though it would have to be far more limited in scope just to allow for proper character development. A Fed/Gorn/Kzinti vs. Klingon/Lyran/Romulan (sorry ISC and Hydrans) storyline would offer a great deal of potential. Not only would the two factions be going at each other, but there would also be a wealth of internal politics and intra-alliance squabbles to keep things interesting. I suppose this could be done in a post-Enterprise, pre-TOS time period with perhaps some modifications to or replacements for the Lyrans/Kzinti.

Of course, there will be many who point out "Gene" would never have accepted a war-torn universe for his ideal world. I don't think he was as divine as many people make him out to be. Specifically, I think it is hypocrisy to include mass destruction of life (how high were the death tolls of Trek episodes in ships and crew?) at the push of a button without also allowing for, and indeed examining closely, wars and their effects on the lives of the people caught in the middle of them. However, I have probably angered enough people already, so I won't take this discussion further.

Getting back to what I feel has been really valuable in this thread, I really do think OP is the best game of the series, if only that D2 were fixed. I know I've said it many times, but I think it bears repeating.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Kroma_BaSyl on March 10, 2003, 11:53:59 am

Quote:

Personally (this is totally subjective), I feel that SFC actually boosted SFB more than the other way around. I don't know if the Interplay/ADB contract stated the SFB material had to be included, but I bet it got ADB more than a few new customers or reintroduced old ones to the game. I have bought all the mainstream (alpha sector) SFB modules of the current ruleset from ADB's site. I don't even PLAY SFB anymore, and didn't have a ton of opportunities to do so in the '80s when I WAS playing. Those SFB products are a wealth of information for SFC mods -- I know that much, at least.

hehehe, sounds exactely like my story.....ADB should be thanking Taldren for my $750 in rule books and miniatures since SFC got me interested again.

Title: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on February 28, 2003, 05:04:03 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Aoav160 on February 28, 2003, 05:40:20 am

SFC2 EAW. I liked the idea of the SFC getting closer to the actual weapons and characteristics of what they should have but when SFC2 was at it's height it was fun, there was a large and quality community.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: SirWilliam on February 28, 2003, 05:46:34 am

With more races (GORN!), ships, and the non-"dumbed down" ship controls, to say nothing of mission variety, SFC2:EAW was without a doubt the best of the bunch. If the D2 had been better, I would by now have abandoned SFC3 completely.

Still holding out hope for the current incarnation...

SW

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on February 28, 2003, 05:48:12 am

All I can say--ayy..
.. is give OP a chaaaaance..

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: GT-Keravnos on February 28, 2003, 06:39:02 am

OP
OP
OP
OP
and
OP!

Has got everything SFC2 has + so many more!

The main reason why has posted above!

Long Live Firesoul+Son Inc. !!!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Demandred on February 28, 2003, 07:25:24 am

OP. If only it hadn't been crippled by bugs...

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on February 28, 2003, 07:49:54 am

Ditto. When it works (if ever), OP will be recognized as the best of the breed.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on February 28, 2003, 07:52:14 am

The results of this post should be interesting.
...

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: 762 on February 28, 2003, 08:28:02 am

I had to say EAW...however, when/if OP is ever patched to an equivalent of 2.0.3.6, it will be the best.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on February 28, 2003, 09:56:43 am

Ditto, I voted for EAW, but if Arctic ever resurfaces and
manages to fix the OP D2 then that would be where it's at!
(Hopefully we haven't heard from him because he's been
working on it all this time...)

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Rhaz on February 28, 2003, 11:04:24 am

Gotta be - OP

More races, more weapons, (now) has the EAW missions + the stock ones, more ERA's

Rhaz

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Scipio_66 on February 28, 2003, 12:36:10 pm

EAW, and by a wide margin!

None of the other three games have anything like playing SFB on the dynaverse. I bought EAW hours before it hit the shelves (I made the stock boy go in the back ang get it) and I still play it almost daily when I'm not busy designing new D2 campaigns.

The other two were good;
*SFC1 was fantastic, and very worth the money I spent on it. But it had nothing like the DV. There is nothing wrong with SFC1, it's just been supplanted.
*OP kept all the old D2 bugs from EAW (including the three-year-old unfixed patrol bug), and then introduced more. It can be pared down to it's good essence (and I'm sure it will be if anyone ever fixes it's D2) but I'll still never completely forgive it for taking that first big step onto the slipperly slope of SFC3.

SFC3..... just not my bag. 'Nuf said. I do wish it had a different name.

But of course, the BEST version will be GAW (you know...... some day) -- It should have all the fun of EAW but with a greatly ehanced Dyna experience and more admin controls over how the universe operates. Keep hope alive!

-S'Cipio

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: 762 on February 28, 2003, 01:49:22 pm

I hereby change my vote to GAW!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Mr. Hypergol on February 28, 2003, 03:00:51 pm

Quote:

I hereby change my vote to GAW!

Me too!!! GAW!!!

Let's finish EAW's storyline.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Tyranus on February 28, 2003, 03:15:54 pm

SFC 1 for me, the original. why, you may ask? somthing about that game just made it seem more as if you were a part of the race you choose to play as. the familiar picture of your races capital city on your homeworld in your home sector, and pictures of your races starbases when you moved to other sectors was somthing i really liked. if they just incorporated that orginal setup into these newer games in would have enjoyed them much more.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: EmeraldEdge on February 28, 2003, 03:31:49 pm

I agree with the racial flavoring of SFC1. They had racial screens at every level, obviously the pattern of SFC in this manner is disturbing. At this rate, SFC4 will be an all text game with a single font and no graphics at all.

I have to install SFC1 every so often just to get the flavor (I play a lot of Fed on SFC1, to get the Trek feel)

Overall though, I'm still holding out hope for OP. If it get's fixed, it's D2, it will be the best game out of the bunch. Sure, it lacks the racial flavoring of screens on SFC1 but it's got so much more including a Dynaverse. The only thing EAW has going for it at this point is that it got fixed and OP didn't. Had OP recieved even a fraction of the attention from Taldren that EAW did you would be able to make a "pure" eaw server with the advances in OP (like arcs and maulers, which are very useful despite what some say) and you would be able to have a stock OP setup with Advanced era. For modders surely there could be no greater game than OP since it offers a much larger variety of weapons and variables to work with.

In short: OP.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: IndyShark on February 28, 2003, 05:39:11 pm

Orion Pirates!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: The_Joker on March 01, 2003, 03:18:54 am

I voted SFC1. Its because of the overall fun I had with it EAW and OP might have more going for them. SFC3 is a damned site prettier.

But........

Nothing will beat the old days of smack talking and everyone being in the same place on mplayer.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Tulmahk on March 01, 2003, 06:34:15 am

The responses here tell me just why it is the SFC line is now essentially over, and why it would be best for the next Trek starship sim to come from a different developer and producer (Taldren is going to kick major ass at console games with Black-9 sounding wonderful, and I'd be shocked if Activision wanted to do another ST ship sim given the lack of popoularity of this one).

Time to leave all the baggage far, far behind. A fresh start would be best.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 01, 2003, 07:05:25 am

Do enlighten us, how exactly do the responses here explain to you why the SFC series should be over?

Because those who posted prefered the ORIGINAL concept SFC/SFB, and not the current "generation"?

What it shows me, is that there is a pretty damn good reason for the sales of SFC3 to be in the tank, as was the box office take for Nemesis...

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 01, 2003, 08:24:35 am

Quote:

The responses here tell me just why it is the SFC line is now essentially over, and why it would be best for the next Trek starship sim to come from a different developer and producer (Taldren is going to kick major ass at console games with Black-9 sounding wonderful, and I'd be shocked if Activision wanted to do another ST ship sim given the lack of popoularity of this one).

Time to leave all the baggage far, far behind. A fresh start would be best.

I would be shocked if they ingored the pile of money that could be made from doing another SFB based SFC like GaW given the poplularity for it ....

I would also be shocked if Taldren doesnt figure out a way to make these fans happy....even if its rapped in another package....

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 01, 2003, 10:19:25 am

Quote:

Do enlighten us, how exactly do the responses here explain to you why the SFC series should be over?

Because those who posted prefered the ORIGINAL concept SFC/SFB, and not the current "generation"?

What it shows me, is that there is a pretty damn good reason for the sales of SFC3 to be in the tank, as was the box office take for Nemesis...

Have a nice day!

wrong again ajtk..

and that "pile of cash" is very minute as is the following when you talk about publishing a video game that cost $$$ to produce and the complete marketing scheme. (there are more people playing total annihilation and quake, etc still than sfc series than those still playing sfc2)

that said, who knows what will happen. maybe taldren will produce a game in which would allow someone to create a mod (ala counter-strike) which would give that sect of people what they wish for.

again, though, its about $$$ in the end and who knows. but ajtk - you are very, very wrong in your assesment. there are many, many reasons.. you are also failing to take into consideration the the profile of those who visit this board vs those who play the game. the demographics and this poll is not scientific - if anything its skewed - but thats another matter.

give sfc3 a demo on time or before release.. give the game a patch and fix some of the out of sync errors/ exploits and its a completely different ball game.

whether its a game based on sfb rule set or not, i believe the results would have been similar.. with maybe the sfb rule set not doing as well solely because of the reviews from the pcgamer type magazines. remember, sfc3 was the HIGHEST rated sfc series - somthing people need to think long and hard about. taldren did quite a bit right with it. that doesnt mean its prefect and things could need a tweak here and there -but they did do quite a bit right, like it or not.

btw, market wise nemsis may have flopped, but another movie with bill shatner and company would not have done as well either - and i am a much bigger fan of that than patrick stewart. as much as a trek geek as i am, i think one of the things that hurt nemisis the most was launching it the week before TT.. and trek just might be slipping a bit from over saturation..

so again ajtk - whether you like it or not, there are many, many factors out there.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: EmeraldEdge on March 01, 2003, 10:44:15 am

You can't be saying the reviews of SFC3 were accurate. Most were spewing forth carbon copies of the press releases. Several mentioned missiles in the game, and almost every single one I read contained some information about the game that was just incorrect. Not to mention the fact that sometimes it's reviewer specific. I believe it was gamespy that did a review of Disney's Treasure Planet and slammed it hard for being a space combat game but stuck on a 2d plane, and so forth. Sound familiar? And yet their review of SFC3 took none of these same things into account when handing out the score. I don't think any of the SFC3 reviewers spent much time playing the game at all. Most of the time, when reading them, it seemed like they booted it up and saw the pretty pictures did a couple of missions and put the game away. Anyhow, I would be willing to put a lot more weight on what the reveiws said, had they not been so wildly inaccurate on many things.

In addition, I'm not sure how giving the game a patch would have helped it along in sales. And a demo? Well maybe, but the combat is just too simplistic, it might have scared away as many as it brought in. Even still, I'm not sure where this massive silent majority of people who loathe SFB in the game and are longing to have a Trek game without it are. Surely they must have noticed the label on the box advertising that the game didn't use SFB mechanics. Most people buy the game, not caring what's under the hood, they just want a good gaming experience, imho.

I think another thing that may have really hurt the sales of 3, is Taldren's history of buggy games that take eons to fix, or never get fixed. People started to get the name SFC tied to "could be fun, but never really worked right" in their brain. I don't think a pared down demo of SFC3 would have helped that mentality very much.

As I said, I don't care if a game is SFB, but I think we would probably have been better off if 3 had been more SFB based, as it would have meant more depth of play, which is the most important thing imho. By saying this wasn't going to be SFB based, and hyping a new combat system that would be easier but just as deep, then delivering a game with monotone combat they may have actually caused more people to cry for the old system rather than jumpin' to see what could be done next by leaving the old behind. That's the sad part.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: CubCarson on March 01, 2003, 11:16:05 am

Quote:

Quote:

Do enlighten us, how exactly do the responses here explain to you why the SFC series should be over?

Because those who posted prefered the ORIGINAL concept SFC/SFB, and not the current "generation"?

What it shows me, is that there is a pretty damn good reason for the sales of SFC3 to be in the tank, as was the box office take for Nemesis...

Have a nice day!

wrong again ajtk..

and that "pile of cash" is very minute as is the following when you talk about publishing a video game that cost $$$ to produce and the complete marketing scheme. (there are more people playing total annihilation and quake, etc still than sfc series than those still playing sfc2)

that said, who knows what will happen. maybe taldren will produce a game in which would allow someone to create a mod (ala counter-strike) which would give that sect of people what they wish for.

again, though, its about $$$ in the end and who knows. but ajtk - you are very, very wrong in your assesment. there are many, many reasons.. you are also failing to take into consideration the the profile of those who visit this board vs those who play the game. the demographics and this poll is not scientific - if anything its skewed - but thats another matter.

give sfc3 a demo on time or before release.. give the game a patch and fix some of the out of sync errors/ exploits and its a completely different ball game.

whether its a game based on sfb rule set or not, i believe the results would have been similar.. with maybe the sfb rule set not doing as well solely because of the reviews from the pcgamer type magazines. remember, sfc3 was the HIGHEST rated sfc series - somthing people need to think long and hard about. taldren did quite a bit right with it. that doesnt mean its prefect and things could need a tweak here and there -but they did do quite a bit right, like it or not.

btw, market wise nemsis may have flopped, but another movie with bill shatner and company would not have done as well either - and i am a much bigger fan of that than patrick stewart. as much as a trek geek as i am, i think one of the things that hurt nemisis the most was launching it the week before TT.. and trek just might be slipping a bit from over saturation..

so again ajtk - whether you like it or not, there are many, many factors out there.

Ok, Nannerslug, I don't believe we have every talked. Or should I say I have never responded to one of your posts.
I have been reading these boards for quite awhile and have noticed a trend. Or rather serveral trends with your posts.
You tend towards one shot posts: ie= make a comment and never reply to responses. (this is what I have seen, may not be true)
You make a point of bashing EAW/OP, or sfb.
You defend Taldren always. (not a bad thing, they provide the forums and the games we play, but....)
You defend SFC3 tooth and nail. (once again not a bad thing, but a little perspective?)
I must admit I don't understand you. My latest conspiricy theory is that you are a pseudonym of Dave Farrell?
My apologies to Dave if I'm off the mark.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Nennennetikkkker on March 01, 2003, 12:32:05 pm

There is no way anyone who has 'lived' the SFB experience can ever say that SFC in any form will ever surpass it. I remember playing huge campaigns that my local gaming club made star charts for and us players would meet at lunch to discuss our moves and then if there was conflict we would set a date to play via counters and dice entire fleets of ships with almost a hundred fighters, shuttles and drones... So naturally when SFC came out we thought, maybe this will make up for all the time we lost. It was a welcome respite to do it on a screen, but had an empty, not quite finished feeling. There was always the nagging, "If I coulda," that the pen and paper game allowed that was lost in SFC.

BUT...SFC still did attempt to fill the void albeit less than perfect or absolut. And far better that somebody else code it than I. (That way we can all blame the incessant bugs on someone else!!)

Whis is better? Discounting the bugs, EAW and OP were equally good for their purposes while a big thumbs down goes to SFC3. The interface and feel for SFC3 is just not the same flavor. I do like the refit options in a way, but then all you end up doing is building something that you end up selling. All in all, SFC3 just seems to be and overall MOD to SFC2.

Something else that was a dead give away to SFC3's cookie cutter appearance was, as previously mentioned, the reviews. It truly was like none of the reviewers really tried playing the game. They probably started it up and saw the same screens and said, "Oh, same game, same review."

I still have SFC2EAW loaded on my machine alongside SFC3. If I ever got short on Hard Drive space, SFC3 would be the one to go away.

BTW, IMHO.....Activision sux! No support for anything. Rude support people. Just print it, box it and ship it is their motto.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 01, 2003, 01:15:10 pm

As usual, Nanner, you look facts right in the teeth and say the sky is green.

Nemesis TANKED, MASSIVELY, worse Trek film TO DATE.

SFC3 is already being reduced on the shelves and the copies arent moving. Granted, this IS a niche market, and we all agree on that, however, the move to TNG and the Nemesis Tie-in were supposed to generate HUGE new audiences, remember? Eh? Remember?

Demo? Who cares about a demo for a game that is going on FOUR MONTHS OLD and has yet to recieve one offical patch. Would you care to see the OH so important "REVIEWS" that PC Gamer or CGW might put out now? I bet you wouldnt. They reviewed SFC3 PRIOR to release, whereas they reviewed prior SFC's AFTER release, so they factored IN the bugs and even commented that without the bugs, the game(s) would have gotten higher reviews.

So Nanner, since I am "wrong again" PLEASE enlighten me as to how SFC3 and Nemesis can be seen as ANYTHING but a HORRIBLE flop. Erik has already said that SFC:TNG "did ok", not great, but not terrible.

The move to TNG, where there are OH so many NEW fans, who have never HEARD of SFB, PLUS a nice, juicy movie tie-in, AND moving to Activision were all supposed to combine into MASSIVE sales for SFC3, far outstripping ANYTHING the SFC series had seen before. You yourself assured us many times that once SFC3 came out the prior, SFB based SFC titles would soon be forgotten...

Now, nearly 4 months after release, I see a poll (yes, unscientific as are all polls) showing MASSIVE support for prior SFB/SFC and little support for SFC:TNG.

Granted, many who come here are fans of the prior series, and that does skew the poll, but as you well know, all that "new blood" you have been telling us about ARE here on this board, I see new registrants every time I log on.

And yet the poll still shows an SFB/SFC landslide.

Erik himself said that if there WERE to be another SFC, he wanted to do GaW, but of course, due to the lackluster sales of SFC3 there will BE no more SFC anytime soon, if EVER.

AND, anyone who might be interested in buying SFC3 once a demo comes out will simply come to these boards if they are at all interested in reviews, etc and read how we are only getting a partial beta patch after 4 months, and how it (as usual) has apparently caused more problems while not fixing anywhere near all the original ones.

So go ahead there Nanner, instead of simply saying "YOUR WRONG" and spouting Taldren propoganda and telling us how "WHEN X happens, THEN YOU'LL SEE" or "When Y happens, THEN YOU'LL see" or even better "You SFB/SFC types are telling the truth about the game on the boards and its running off new customers". <(I really like that one)

Lay it out, dont just say were wrong, and mention various and sundry factors that have to date held down the sales of SFC3, give us YOUR facts.

MY facts are that SFC3 has had merely break-even sales and that the movie it is based on TANKED, as Star Trek in general has TANKED since TNG went off the air and DS9 took over. (I bought a TV guide last night with the headline "Can Star Trek be saved?" but I have yet to read it yet. Since when is THAT a question that has to be asked?!?! "CAN STAR TREK BE SAVED"?!??! That hasnt been asked in about 3 decades.) Oh, and that the poll that started this thread shows that of the people who frequent this board, the SFB/SFC types outnumber you about 75 to 1.

Do you actually have the quevos to try to make some points nanner, or are ya simply gonna respond with vauge references to SFC3's future greatness, and do so with all the clarity and voodoo like nature of the SFC3 game itself?

BTW, did ya read the post above mine, nanner? NEW people are seeing what you post and easily deciphering that you are 1)PRO TALDREN/PRO SFC3 100% of the time, and 2)ANTI-SFB/ANTI-TOS/ANTI-ANYONE WHO DOESNT AGREE WITH YOU 110% of the time, so its not just US die-hard, grog-nard, SFB old-farts who see it anymore.

Have a super dooper outstanding TNG killed SFC kinda day!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: 3dot14 on March 01, 2003, 01:44:07 pm

Quote:

I agree with the racial flavoring of SFC1. They had racial screens at every level, obviously the pattern of SFC in this manner is disturbing. At this rate, SFC4 will be an all text game with a single font and no graphics at all.

LMBO!!!!!!!!

While SFC1's immersion factors (such as music (ron jones rocks!), menus, and the campaign stories) is the best among the series. SFC2's refined game play still beats SFC1...

I wish I could vote for OP, I REALLY do! but the OP patch situation worse than SFC3... Like many said, once OP's Dyn2 and gameplay is brought to par as EAW. Then I definitely would've voted OP.

SFC3's err... revolutionary changes... are just too revolutionary. It doesn't appear to be the game I started with (SFC1) anymore... To me: SFC3 is not a Sequel. it's a Spin-Off, which is not un-usual nowadays. but it just doesn't feel right...

But until then, my vote goes to EAW.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: EmeraldEdge on March 01, 2003, 01:50:48 pm

Actually I believe Nanner's point was that had the Demo for SFC3 come out BEFORE the game was release or soon thereafter, and had the patch been released shortly after the games release, sales for the game, and the overall SFC3 community, would be much larger.

That said, I'm not sure that's true.

I saw the headline on TV guide at the store, and actually thought about buying it just to read the article. I didn't though. It might be nice to know what they had to say though. It's sad that Trek has come to this, but it's clear as to why (to some degree). Continuity is out the door, and stories are rehashed time and time again.

I do have to agree, to a certain degree, with Nanner on this though. I'm not sure a Trek movie with the original cast would have done outstanding now either, but I do know that I didn't go see Nemesis (despite it revolving around Romulans), and had the movie been an original cast movie I might have bothered. It's tough, but they really need to do something about the storylines and scripts going around. And stop trying to put forhead ridges and creapy alien effects on aliens that don't need them, or shouldn't have them.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: SOS_Skorzeny on March 01, 2003, 02:17:38 pm

Quote:

btw, market wise nemsis may have flopped, but another movie with bill shatner and company would not have done as well either - and i am a much bigger fan of that than patrick stewart. as much as a trek geek as i am, i think one of the things that hurt nemisis the most was launching it the week before TT.. and trek just might be slipping a bit from over saturation..

Mr. Nannerslug, me boyo: Non sequitor. Your facts do not correlate. A better movie with Mr. Shatner would have done much better at the box office than did Nemesis. For that matter, a better movie with Mr. Stewart would have done much better at the box office than did this one. Nemesis was just a bad movie.

Star Trek doesn't need a better cast. It needs better writers. Romulan makeup and attitudes were all screwed up in this movie, but a good plot could have saved this. Reman Nosferatu freakazoids couldn't rescue the bad plot.

Quote:

whether its a game based on sfb rule set or not, i believe the results would have been similar.. with maybe the sfb rule set not doing as well solely because of the reviews from the pcgamer type magazines. remember, sfc3 was the HIGHEST rated sfc series -

Baloney. The reviews for SFC3 said that Activision was "quite right in removing all the things which got in the way of your just pressing the firing button and blowing up the enemy". Nearly a direct quoted. That alone should have told me enough to keep me from buying the game. Read the review, don't look at the number of stars at the end. In any event, I didn't even see any reviews before buying SFC1. I bought it because I heard there was "an SFB computer game" on the market. I wasn't dissapointed and I don't think it is magazine reviews that determine sales so much as happy customers talking to their freinds. SFC2 got even better than SFC1.

You can guess which version I voted for. Hee hee

None of this matters to this thread. All that matters is who you vote for. The fact that three times as many people (as I post this) on an internet community prefer SFC2 to SFC3, even though they are years older and sfc3 is still a new release, should say soemthing.

More SFB please. Hee hee.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 01, 2003, 02:24:28 pm

oy..
.. here we go, the old arguments again.

-- Luc

Title: EAW with Reservations
Post by: Carrie on March 01, 2003, 02:35:22 pm

I say EAW right now, but not without reservations. EAW only keeps the high spot because of how well its been fixed.

If Dyna interaction, base action, and other things from OP were fixed, and OP patched up to the current quality of EAW... with NuclearWessels and Firesoul adapting the EAW missions over, and making new and more exciting missions as well... I would probably pick OP without reservation.

Get those PATCHES done (the big patch, and the dyna one), and I'll be downloading missions in a minute, and making OP my all time favorite.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: SOS_Skorzeny on March 01, 2003, 02:42:10 pm

Quote:

oy..
.. here we go, the old arguments again.

-- Luc

Sorry. I have voted, I'll be quiet now.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 01, 2003, 03:20:24 pm

http://pet.dhs.org/~firesoul/img/arguing.jpg

Edit: there.. I won't show the picture directly.. but..
Edit2: Contains explicit, and insult. Basic Message is: arguying over internet is retarded. Avoid if offensive.
-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 01, 2003, 03:35:41 pm

Luc,

Would you not make fun of the special needs folks--they have as much right to repeat themselves over and over as the special olympians...

mahahahaha

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 01, 2003, 04:20:40 pm

last time ajtk.. my only point in responding to you is simply this: there were many factors to why sfc3 has not sold as well as people had hopped - you cannot pin it on any single thing. just as if i were to sit here and say (if sfc3 was successful) that the sole reason for its success was the rule change. that just is not true. most people bought/buy sfc because a) its trek and b) its the best game out there pitting trek ships against each other. it really is that simple.

See.. if rule sets where the ONLY reason for sfc rise/fall, then you fail to talk about is the success/ lack of financial success of Orion Pirates. It was a stand alone expansion pack which actually comes to the closest to emulating sfb.. i do not see many people playing it while it is superior to eaw in every aspect.

regarding marketing, etc.. it could have been bill shatner or patrick stewart and it probably would have flopped - period. this goes much deeper than what you think.

that said, however, if you were to do your marketing research - you will find that the people with demographics lean toward the tng - like it or not. i am by far a tmp person more than tng (do not try to equate tng/tos with sfb/nonsfb rule sets - that is false.. im talking about trek - not rule sets) and i even realize it.

if you stick your head outside of this community and look around at other games and what takes to drive/ build them - it is simple economics that regardless of what rule set, there are issues. (there are more people playing total annihilation now than sfc2 - and TA came out a couple of years before sfc2 - and thats not talking about games like rainbow 6 or even mech warrior 3 or 4).

finally.. its not so much being antisfb as it is saying that things can be improved on.. if that is antisfb - then hey, ill wear that badge proudly simply because sfb is not sacred scripture or text. its an evolving rule set which may work great for pen and paper stuff.. but many, many things change or need to be changed.. or can be improved on with the use of a computer.

if you like 100% pure sfb straight up with no adaptations, then i do recommend www.sfbonline.com (i think thats it). the fact remains, that even with sfc1/2/op, there is more different with it and sfb than similar. why? because the game is of realtime nature.

one last thing about this "poll" regarding scientific and nonscientific.. i would say that this forum represents a skewed segment of the population - just as most any forum does. this is a fact, not opinion. so before anyone takes anything from it- i would caution against it. that would be regardless of the results.

so ajtk - please vent your anger some where else. the "fact" is, there are many, many things that effect the situation.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Komodo on March 01, 2003, 05:26:41 pm

This arguement can go on steady for the next 4 months, and the result will still be the same:

No one wins.

Personally, I voted OP. It had all the stuff. In its form, it should have been superior to EAW. The "expansion" theory didn't make sense to me- personally, I think it should have been created as being able to stand-alone for its own sake, and as an actual expansion add-on to EAW; that would have made for a lot less grief overall. Personally, I think the X-Ship factor was overblown...

I think a lot of people missed the point of SFC3. It is supposed to be something new. Not to necessarily replace previous versions, but give a lot of fans something they wanted that was the same format as them. Not only did they get TNG ships, but a whole new set of variables which works very well for the real time enviornment. Drawbacks are that it is not nearly as engaging as the TOS games, fewer race variety, and lately, the splinter faction going on (meaning GSA mostly). Is it still fun? Sure! Especially when you get an even team game going.

For the time being, I'm mostly concentrating on #3. Does that mean I'm gonna forget about the versions I've played over the past 3 years? No way! But I am glad to have #3- it came out just when I was getting very tired of the same old game, and it really did bring back my interest and excitement again. I may not go back to EAW once OP gets its patch- I really think OP will finally get the attention it has long deserved. Then again, maybe I will. That's later.

I think the real problem with things lately is that the community has fractured upon the lines of each version, and sadly will continue to try to up the ante of each, which only serves to divide us further. What good is that?

Everyone is entitled to play what they want, and it's totally destructive to try to convince each other otherwise. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion- fine- say it once, and get on with getting it on. Endless bickering solves nothing. Save your energy for having fun folks! It's much better spent

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Kieran Forester on March 01, 2003, 07:35:19 pm

Nanner, there are several reasons OP did not sell as well. First, the way it was sold was a factor. Instead of a stand alone, it should have been an addition to EAW itself, similar in the way B-Wing was to LucasArts first X-Wing game. There wasn't really enough there to warrant it being sold as a stand alone product at stand alone prices. Second, there was nothing really done to quash old bugs that had already been found in EAW, especially in the D2, with the patrol bug and all that. And thirdly, as a result of #2, the community itself did not wholeheartedly embrace OP and leave EAW behind. Nearly all major D2 campaigns are EAW campaigns, due to the fact that OP had the same old bugs and has not had the fixes from EAW ported over, which made EAW D2 a much more stable environment. The simple reason that EAW is more played is that it has always has been the more stable piece of software, and will continue to be so until the upcoming OP patch. And since both games are over a year old, there is little reason to switch from one to the other at this point.

Oh, and a note. Yes, I bought SFC1 because it's Trek. But then, when I saw what an immersive universe SFB had, and how much cooler its mechanics were compared to that of other Trek games, even today, I realized SFB is what makes the SFC series so cool. Without it, as evidenced by the lukewarm sales of SFC3, SFC is just another run of the mill Trek game. Yes, I bought SFC1 because it's Trek; I bought SFC2 and OP because it was SFB.

Once again, Nanner, you see only the facts you want to see. But hey, why should we be surprised?

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 01, 2003, 09:24:48 pm

Just a point about the OP bugs, they are not "stability" bugs. Enough people have attested to the fewer crashes experienced in OP play. But that doesn't count for half a Chiko Roll when compared to the gameplay bugs (ie screwed up cartel interactions) found in the OP-D2.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 01, 2003, 10:37:53 pm

komodo is right on all points.

Kieran, op was what the community made it. there were by far more bugs with eaw than when op came out. this was a conscience decision by many in the eaw community to snub op. there might be a bug or two left in op, but nothing that could be over come if people wanted to embrace it and use it - but they decided not to. the decision to dump op was purely political. of course what i find funny to some degree is that op is more sfb like than eaw ranging from maulers to k-fx arcs. <shrug>

as far as the "immersive universe SFB ". i can almost garuantee with out a doubt there has been more written about trek than sfb. go to any book store for the past how many years and you can find on the self dozens of star trek books. just as with OP, however, it is what people decide to put into it.

does "sfb" have a good back ground with an intriguing story and missions- you bet! but that does not make it the lone game (let alone trek) with such a back ground.. nor does it mean a game cannot be successful without such a back ground. it is simply one of the things which make that particular game unique. it does not mean that its rule set is any better (or worse) than any other rule set. in fact, i would argue that if you looked at the bigger picture that many people might argue differently as there have been other successful trek games (although not many).

for what its worth, i do look at the facts - i simply do not put blinders on and keep an open mind to what makes a good game. however, that conflicts some people's perceptions, such as your self - more than likely because of differing back grounds, demographics and what we look for in a good game. end of story.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 01, 2003, 11:58:48 pm

Quote:

komodo is right on all points.

Kieran, op was what the community made it. there were by far more bugs with eaw than when op came out. this was a conscience decision by many in the eaw community to snub op. there might be a bug or two left in op, but nothing that could be over come if people wanted to embrace it and use it - but they decided not to. the decision to dump op was purely political. of course what i find funny to some degree is that op is more sfb like than eaw ranging from maulers to k-fx arcs. <shrug>

A bug or two is probably correct, one being the cartel map-empire map interaction bug, and the other being the neutral co-op bug and to a lesser degree the Cartel DV bug. Combined, these few bugs make the OP-D2 unplayable, not politics. And it is not for lack of trying, for from what I saw admins tried very hard to make it work. But all the good will in the world won't make the empire cartel interaction work in a logical way or allow co-op missions to affect DV's. All in all a very misleading political message.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Lepton1 on March 02, 2003, 12:41:57 am

Two points.

1. SFC as a series is now dead. Erik Bethke has as much as said so. Taldren wants to do something non-Trek in the future. Hence B-9.

2. As per Nanner's point about Trek games needing to grow, I give you Bridge Commander, DS9:Dominion War, etc. < Insert the sound of a plane crashing and burning or alternatively the whistle of a bomb dropping and exploding>. The "Public" doesn't give a rat's behind about Trek and Trek games. This will always be the province of the odd and obsessive as is most Sci-Fi. The most popular online games seem to be those that frankly plug into the worst in people. I will take my SFB oddness any day over the least common denominator of Half-Life and Unreal, blah, blah, blah. The further they attempt to expand the market for Trek , the more likely it is to bite the big one.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kosh2000 on March 02, 2003, 01:56:29 am

op the bastard step child of sfc is number one in my book then sfc1 as far as sfc3 well the cloak is nice

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: EmeraldEdge on March 02, 2003, 02:35:41 am

This is actually the most open minded I have ever seen Nanner post, and I welcome it. No longer does the mear mention of SFB turn him into a ranting lunatic, but rather he admits that there are good elements to it, even some that he would like in the game.

As for the community dooming OP. What place does this make sense? I mean we have the statement:

Quote:

op was what the community made it. there were by far more bugs with eaw than when op came out. this was a conscience decision by many in the eaw community to snub op.

First off, why on earth, if the EAW community snubbed Taldren's new design, would taldren then turn around and say "alright, we won't bother fixing OP then" when there were in fact people trying desperately to make the best of it, and garnering a decent following.

Quote:

there might be a bug or two left in op, but nothing that could be over come if people wanted to embrace it and use - but they decided not to.

A bug or two? Nothing major? I call some of the D2 bugs remaining fairly major. The fact that you can't coop in neutral space and have it count? It's supposed to be multi-player, but to make it work you have to play alone. Nice little "minor" bug there. The fact that almost none of the missions produce reliable DV outcomes depending on the hex they are in? Yep, minor one there too. The next one is finally being fixed, but the speed bug? Yep, minor little bug introduced in a patch.

As for "deciding not to", well people did decide to, but after repeated promises, and no materialization of said promises, many finally gave up. That's the pure and simple problem. Those who were making an effort felt shunned and like second class citizens even to Taldren.

I just don't see how the "community" can be blamed for the physical state of OP. Why didn't Taldren choose to support the people who were willing to go the extra step with them, instead of making sure the older product, with all the people who shunned thier new effort, got continued work done to it? It's a slap in the face to those who took what they could get and tried to work with it, and a congratulatory handshake to those who stood against evolution of the game.

Now, on the "immersiveness" of SFB vs. Trek, the books don't mean anything really. As any canon hound will tell you, the books are as much Trek as SFB is, they exist outside of canon, which is what appears only on the television screen and in the movie theatre. In this regard, SFB does have Trek beat as far as an overall storyline.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kosh2000 on March 02, 2003, 06:07:20 am

How this if it was fixed how big would the fan base be now and would a large segment of people moved from eaw to op and would most of the people with a working op d2 moved to sfc3 or even support it on these forums at all .This is just my opinion

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: CubCarson on March 02, 2003, 10:22:26 am

Nannerslug, I apologize for my comment about you making one post and then leaving. You have proven me wrong.
Now on to my comments...
I think the reason EAW is so popular (as compared to OP) is that it has been patched as far as Taldren is willing to go with a 2 year old game. Various people saw the potential in the game and continued the process- Magnum Man, Nuclear Wessels, Arctic Fire, the whole sfc2.net team... Dark Elf, Karnak.... and there are more that I cannot remember and wish I could. It isn't just patching the game or making new missions that keep it interesting (but it is a big part!) but bringing out innovative campaigns that get the blood flowing, get a team spirit alive!
Dizzy is bringing out a Slave Girls server for OP, a testament to a great game even though it isn't patched to the level of eaw yet.
KOTH Fluf is starting the litterbox 2 campaign soon, with some innovative rules, victory conditions and ship modifications. (sfc3 campaign, if you haven't heard of it)
The community isn't dead yet, let's not write a post-mortem for Star Trek ship combat simulators before the last server is down!
Nannerslug, I still do not understand you.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: WindFire on March 02, 2003, 11:53:31 am

Quote:

Kieran, op was what the community made it. there were by far more bugs with eaw than when op came out. this was a conscience decision by many in the eaw community to snub op. there might be a bug or two left in op, but nothing that could be over come if people wanted to embrace it and use it - but they decided not to. the decision to dump op was purely political. of course what i find funny to some degree is that op is more sfb like than eaw ranging from maulers to k-fx arcs. <shrug>

I would be curious to see how you think people can overcome the DV interaction issues caused by the cartel map and some of the other critical issues with the OP D2. There was a decent size following that played OP D2 that enjoyed it very much, but were and are continually frustrated by the bugs that have not been fixed.

Windfire

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 02, 2003, 12:53:58 pm

Nannerslug: /quote "The sky is green." /end quote

Pointless.

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: LongTooth on March 02, 2003, 01:42:33 pm

Well I voted for OP
But in another thread it seems that even to there will be a new pacth for op(after the long wait) it will not fix the D2 problems
Frankly I think this stinks op was never given a chance and now due to its age its not going to get one
I liked sfc3 but apart from the cloak and how the D3 works its nothing new if any thing its less
Having just 4 races in it was a bad idea (imho) if they relese an add on for sfc3 I hope its going to add more races and weapons
Playing op online (D2 ) is pointless till its fixed its a shame as rooks3 was the best campaine I ever played in

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Whiplash on March 02, 2003, 02:50:11 pm

If you remove the online gameplay context, OP is a superior game all the way to EAW. There is NOTHING to recommend EAW over OP. OP has absolutely everything EAW does and more. If you don't like Advanced era, you need not play with them.

Its only the popularity of the EAW online that made it a more attractive game, and we all know why that is, but its not the fault of the game itself, only the politics surrounding it.

W.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Kieran Forester on March 02, 2003, 03:09:02 pm

Of course there's more mainstream Trek than there is SFB. Trek is a cultural phenomenon. SFB is a wargame, and wargames don't appeal to nearly as many people as does mainstream Trek.

However, the ruleset has been tried and true for about 20 or 30 years, which gives it an advantage over the made from scratch mechanics of other Trek games. I simply think that SFB is the right way to go for the SFC series.

As for EAW vs OP, I honestly am not sure what you're talking about. I never 'snubbed' OP, nor did anyone that I know. It was more a decision of necessity than of politics, due to the fact that EAW was always patched and fixed up before OP. There may have been fewer overall bugs in OP at release time than in EAW, but as far as I remember, OP's D2 was the same piece of software, with the same bugs, as EAW D2.Heck, there are bugs in OP's D2 that were fixed ages ago in EAW's. You could be right, I suppose, but you can't speak for all of the D2 community when you say it.

And sure, a Trek game doesn't need SFB to be good. Look at Elite Force and Bridge Commander. Two great games without a shred of SFB in them anywhere. As I said above, however, I think SFB is the right way to go for SFC. Sales of SFC3 agree with me.

I'm looking at the facts, too, and I know just as well what makes a good game. I'm not sure what you mean, however, by your comment about background and demographics. What does that have to do with anything?

Thanks,
Kieran

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FatherTed on March 02, 2003, 04:27:24 pm

Quote:

If you remove the online gameplay context, OP is a superior game all the way to EAW. There is NOTHING to recommend EAW over OP. OP has absolutely everything EAW does and more. If you don't like Advanced era, you need not play with them.

A functional D2 is why EAW is king of SFC2. And Advanced era(particulary 2X) is Wisconsin's finest.

Quote:

Its only the popularity of the EAW online that made it a more attractive game, and we all know why that is, but its not the fault of the game itself, only the politics surrounding it.

W.

I'm curious, how would politics have anything to do with the fact that the OP Dynaverse doesn't work? I think I can safely say that the majority of D2 pilots would move to OP if they ever fix it, simply because of the possibilities it offers.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Karnak on March 02, 2003, 10:17:51 pm

EAW.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 02, 2003, 10:41:21 pm

Quote:

A functional D2 is why EAW is king of SFC2. And Advanced era(particulary 2X) is Wisconsin's finest. <snip>

I'm curious, how would politics have anything to do with the fact that the OP Dynaverse doesn't work? I think I can safely say that the majority of D2 pilots would move to OP if they ever fix it, simply because of the possibilities it offers.

simple ted... a) there are ways of removing the x ships without making a downloadable shiplist. simple fix. b) at the time op had a more stable d2 while there are issues with pirates, etc that does not make it perfect. c) politics involved very heavily with op regarding d2 campaigns, black balling due to said x ships (which could have been removed), "magic photons" or what ever excuse.. in addition to the e word (effort). As with any game OP was (or was not) what we made it.

just ask some of the d2 server ops running campaigns at the height of op/eaw.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Scipio_66 on March 02, 2003, 11:17:22 pm

Quote:

simple ted... a) there are ways of removing the x ships without making a downloadable shiplist. simple fix.

Removing x-ships accomplishes nothing. You can take out all the x ships you want and the OP dynaverse still simply does not work. The cartel map interaction bugs kill it cold. If Articfire patches the dynaverse then maybe something can be made of it. Until then........

-S'Cipio

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 02, 2003, 11:27:29 pm

Quote:

Removing x-ships accomplishes nothing. You can take out all the x ships you want and the OP dynaverse still simply does not work. The cartel map interaction bugs kill it cold. If Articfire patches the dynaverse then maybe something can be made of it. Until then........

Should this poll be re-posted once OP D2 fixes are public?
-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 01:05:42 am

look Scipi.. the point is simple.. if you want make somthing work bad enough you over look all the pimples and make it work. such is the case for *anything*.

back when OP was released, or shortly thereafter, things could have been done to resolve situations. look at sfcx and how they have advanced OP (or all the other servers ranging from the triangle to slave girls to rook's tavern). so to say that the OP dyanverse is unplayable is not true at all. the truth is - it just was not politically correct in some circles for what ever reason and never recieved the full support from the community which it deserved.

of course what made me laugh is how many of people who wanted to play *only* eaw and not buy op wanted all the toys of OP patched into EAW (minus the x ships in most cases).

so, in short.. if people really wanted to support OP - instead of finding reasons why it didnt work - they would have made it work - just like it is in EAW (still).

for what its worth - that does not take away from the issues/ problems which do exsist. it does, however, reflect the nature of a deeper problem.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 03, 2003, 01:52:30 am

Who cares about the X-ships? I don't go near them in GSA and once a working D2 is available you can bet the first thing some of the admins with EAW experience would do is moderate them a tad, but to say

"there are issues with pirates, etc that does not make it perfect."

is a bit of an understatement.

And I keep forgetting about that Fed speed bug thing too. Now that was a political stick of dynamite I must admit. No level of D2 map interaction fixing could have saved the outcome of that either.

So it's still down to OP being a game which is 98% good (excellent even) except for the 2% bit which is essential to D2 and which is currently floating in the fish tank with it's ventral fins in the air.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 03, 2003, 07:10:58 am

Quote:

Quote:

Removing x-ships accomplishes nothing. You can take out all the x ships you want and the OP dynaverse still simply does not work. The cartel map interaction bugs kill it cold. If Articfire patches the dynaverse then maybe something can be made of it. Until then........

Should this poll be re-posted once OP D2 fixes are public?
-- Luc

I'm not sure. I think to comment now would possibly invoke the Hiesenburg(sp--I know I mangled that one) effect.

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 03, 2003, 07:40:26 am

Quote:

I'm not sure. I think to comment now would possibly invoke the Hiesenburg(sp--I know I mangled that one) effect.

Explain? I am not familiar with that name.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 03, 2003, 08:24:07 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 03, 2003, 09:12:37 am

Ah.. that one. Ok.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Karnak on March 03, 2003, 12:27:51 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
last time ajtk.. my only point in responding to you is simply this: there were many factors to why sfc3 has not sold as well as people had hopped - you cannot pin it on any single thing. just as if i were to sit here and say (if sfc3 was successful) that the sole reason for its success was the rule change. that just is not true. most people bought/buy sfc because a) its trek and b) its the best game out there pitting trek ships against each other. it really is that simple.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
See.. if rule sets where the ONLY reason for sfc rise/fall, then you fail to talk about is the success/ lack of financial success of Orion Pirates. It was a stand alone expansion pack which actually comes to the closest to emulating sfb.. i do not see many people playing it while it is superior to eaw in every aspect.

regarding marketing, etc.. it could have been bill shatner or patrick stewart and it probably would have flopped - period. this goes much deeper than what you think.

that said, however, if you were to do your marketing research - you will find that the people with demographics lean toward the tng - like it or not. i am by far a tmp person more than tng (do not try to equate tng/tos with sfb/nonsfb rule sets - that is false.. im talking about trek - not rule sets) and i even realize it.

if you stick your head outside of this community and look around at other games and what takes to drive/ build them - it is simple economics that regardless of what rule set, there are issues. (there are more people playing total annihilation now than sfc2 - and TA came out a couple of years before sfc2 - and thats not talking about games like rainbow 6 or even mech warrior 3 or 4).

finally.. its not so much being antisfb as it is saying that things can be improved on.. if that is antisfb - then hey, ill wear that badge proudly simply because sfb is not sacred scripture or text. its an evolving rule set which may work great for pen and paper stuff.. but many, many things change or need to be changed.. or can be improved on with the use of a computer.

if you like 100% pure sfb straight up with no adaptations, then i do recommend www.sfbonline.com (i think thats it). the fact remains, that even with sfc1/2/op, there is more different with it and sfb than similar. why? because the game is of realtime nature.

one last thing about this "poll" regarding scientific and nonscientific.. i would say that this forum represents a skewed segment of the population - just as most any forum does. this is a fact, not opinion. so before anyone takes anything from it- i would caution against it. that would be regardless of the results.

so ajtk - please vent your anger some where else. the "fact" is, there are many, many things that effect the situation.

Excuses made to hide the problem will never solve the problem. Based on your track record in the CIC regarding Drone-G rack/SFC3 issues, and, on these forums, you have yet to grasp this principle.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 03, 2003, 12:47:12 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 02:07:08 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: DiggityDank on March 03, 2003, 02:26:20 pm

Quote:

finally, karnak - the reality of the matter is i understand the process about g-racks, etc too well. i understand the implications of what many were trying to pull in the name of sfb. (hence my problem with rules lawyers)

LOL, the king of the instigators talks of other folks 'pulling' stuff...
Oh My Freakin' God that is too funny!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 02:47:37 pm

yeah dank.. i am the one instigating stuff.. yup.. uh huh.. thats me.

::rolls eyes::

i operate on 2 premis

a) never make an argument personal
b) only respond - do not start threads.

thanks.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: DiggityDank on March 03, 2003, 02:56:49 pm

Quote:

i operate on 2 premis

a) never make an argument personal
b) only respond - do not start threads.

thanks.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 03, 2003, 03:00:48 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 03:12:37 pm

Quote:

Oh I was thinking of the past...

Commando ships, 'minimaxing' (still laughing over that one), etc...
Most of these 'comments' led to nerfing of the Klingon shiplist.

Keep on rollin' 'em bud

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 03:19:10 pm

Quote:

In the real world, nobody got what they wanted, except maybe the people who wanted to see OP fail, though even they probably were hurt by the mess in the long run.

So, what it comes down to for many who have struggled on in hopes that OP D2 would someday be fixed is we just want to see what Taldren could do with it given a chance. It may never be all it could be, but it could be pretty solid given a bit of effort.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Karnak on March 03, 2003, 03:26:00 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
finally, karnak - the reality of the matter is i understand the process about g-racks, etc too well. i understand the implications of what many were trying to pull in the name of sfb. (hence my problem with rules lawyers)

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: LongTooth on March 03, 2003, 03:38:21 pm

good luck in the future. i hope to see a resurge in OP personally.

There wont be one if the OP d2 is not fixed

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: NannerSlug on March 03, 2003, 03:56:42 pm

Quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanner:
finally, karnak - the reality of the matter is i understand the process about g-racks, etc too well. i understand the implications of what many were trying to pull in the name of sfb. (hence my problem with rules lawyers)

Well, this how I see things from the perspective of someone that only started playing EAW seriously since last summer and come from a non-involved race, the ISC.

1) G Drone Racks Issues:
Nanner and other get into a debate about G racks and suddenly out of nowhere an "instense" dislike for the Feds arise that put a stigma of Fed players everywhere. So, either a) the Feds were trying to keep a weapons advantage or b) All the non-Fed players don't know what they are talking about. Sound to me like they were trying to "pull" some fairness into the game over your objections. If you need an example on how the G rack will be fixed in dyna play then you should take a look at Dizzy's upcomming SG3 dyna when it comes out.

2) SFC3:
Nanner starts ragging on D2 about a month ago and suddenly the whole Fed community is up in arms and we got fleets leaving the CIC en masse. Looks like the "feet did the walking" on that argument.

Nanner, next time you post, use detailed, concrete and material facts, not abstract assertions in your "smoke and mirrors" show.

thanks,

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Zenister on March 03, 2003, 04:02:24 pm

Quote:

There wont be one if the OP d2 is not fixed

indeed..OP is my pick for favorite of the series..it just doesnt live up to the expectation due to glaring bugs..

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 03, 2003, 05:53:49 pm

Quote:

komodo is right on all points.

Kieran, op was what the community made it. there were by far more bugs with eaw than when op came out. this was a conscience decision by many in the eaw community to snub op. there might be a bug or two left in op, but nothing that could be over come if people wanted to embrace it and use it - but they decided not to. the decision to dump op was purely political. of course what i find funny to some degree is that op is more sfb like than eaw ranging from maulers to k-fx arcs. <shrug>

as far as the "immersive universe SFB ". i can almost garuantee with out a doubt there has been more written about trek than sfb. go to any book store for the past how many years and you can find on the self dozens of star trek books. just as with OP, however, it is what people decide to put into it.

does "sfb" have a good back ground with an intriguing story and missions- you bet! but that does not make it the lone game (let alone trek) with such a back ground.. nor does it mean a game cannot be successful without such a back ground. it is simply one of the things which make that particular game unique. it does not mean that its rule set is any better (or worse) than any other rule set. in fact, i would argue that if you looked at the bigger picture that many people might argue differently as there have been other successful trek games (although not many).

for what its worth, i do look at the facts - i simply do not put blinders on and keep an open mind to what makes a good game. however, that conflicts some people's perceptions, such as your self - more than likely because of differing back grounds, demographics and what we look for in a good game. end of story.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Julin Eurthyr on March 03, 2003, 08:14:56 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Holocat on March 03, 2003, 08:31:12 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 04, 2003, 01:51:23 am

Quote:

There are quite a few people who play EAW who would have fought tooth and nail to get people to play OP dyna had someone bothered to fix the glaring problems that ruin OP dyna play. That said, there were some very cool OP campaigns that saw a very nice turnout...turnout rivaling the best EAW campaigns (at times). These campaigns flourished despite all the problems with OP. I wonder how much more popular it could have been if anybody could have been bothered to FIX THE FREAKING GAME.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Holocat on March 04, 2003, 02:14:57 am

Quote:

Instead OP-D2 was not just an uphill battle (like EAW) but an assault up a cliff in a blizzard.

I'm canadian. An uphill battle in a blizzard is too bad.

Yes, I voted for OP,

Holocat.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: ragamer on March 04, 2003, 05:38:03 am

It's good to find some1 that has some objective thinking around.

P.S. As usual, excuse me for the length and barbaric english.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 04, 2003, 06:51:39 am

Quote:

Well from the SP POV answer is clear:

SFC2:EAW

Why?... Because of content... pure and simple... Number of WORKING DIFFERENT MISSIONS... You may think.. but OP has
more missions... But all the bugs just cripple it... I'm making this analysis base on ACTUAL status...not on vague
rumors of new patch or whatever.

Quote:

From DYNA POV?... To be honest... I'm quite dissapointed with it... It just another way of online matches (with even
additional bugs...) I think that there is little difference with a GSA ladder (unless of course you like painting things
blue ).

Heh..

Quote:

As a conclusion... SFC series with EAW dyna concept is and should be DEAD. If Taldren wants to refloat the series to
turn it again a profitable project, IMHO, they should remade Dyna to a REAL strategic battleground where ships and fleets
need to change based on the STRATEGIC GOAL they want to achieve.

..well.. Fans like me won't let it die, don't you see?

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 07:44:42 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 07:55:02 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 04, 2003, 08:00:01 am

Quote:

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter.

You better warm up that campaign engine if my guess is correct.

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 04, 2003, 08:13:13 am

Quote:

You know, I sure hope some folks at Taldren take note of this thread. There are some seriously good pros and cons coming up here that may help them in future patch or development decisions.

FireSoul, I think you and "Evil" Dave have done wonders -- more in the last 3 months than Taldren has done for OP in over a year.

I'm actually quite surprised that so many people have chosen OP as their favorite, or qualified their choice with "if OP D2 worked, then ..."

Quote:

Nanner, thanks for the kudos about the hard work the OP admins have done in the past, but someone was absolutely correct in saying if our hard work could have gone into improving the campaign experience rather than trying to make it half-workable, OP D2 would have been much better. Heck, just within the SFCX group we have come up with at least 2-3 campaign ideas, "major" and otherwise, that would be really cool, only to have to put them off indefinitely because of the D2 bugs. I'm sure the other admins could say the same. We've also come up with ways to work with what we have in the cartel layer issue only to be confronted with the speed bug, inability to do neutral coop, broken missions, etc. In the end, some of us refocused our energies elsewhere, like SFC3 testing, because we couldn't make any progress with OP in its current state.

Quite right..
SFC D2 Admins have my respect and admiration.. .. no joke.

Quote:

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter. We want to have a dedicated shiplist (specialized to our needs and "corrected" per SFB specs similar to FireSoul's list) and specific VCs (rather than the general each planet = X pts., each base = Y pts., etc.).

EveryOne: I know something you don't know.. I know something you don't know...

Nomad: yes, feel free to use my shiplist. I want to wait till the patch is out.. but if you guys really want it, I can declare it officially completed and send you what I've got.

Quote:

One more thing I'd like to bring attention to is SQL for OP. Unless things have changed drastically since I was last "in-the-know," OP DOES NOT HAVE SQL. Then again, EAW's SQL support, I think, is still considered in a test state. SFC3's SQL support seems to be getting there, but still unofficial. If the other two are going to have SQL support, OP should, too. Castrin has a lot of things he would like to do, but can't without SQL.

Give me SQL support in OP.. and I'll give show you want I, a perl programmer and linux admin by choice, can do.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 04, 2003, 08:14:24 am

Quote:

Quote:

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter.

You better warm up that campaign engine if my guess is correct.

Toasty!!
.. are you one of those that didn't sign an NDA??
.. I sure did, way back when..

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 08:33:30 am

Well, if he's "guessing" out loud, I may just have to ramp up preparations, just in case.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 04, 2003, 08:41:53 am

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

That said, if the forthcoming OP patch DOES fix the speed bug, look for an SFCX campaign shortly thereafter.

You better warm up that campaign engine if my guess is correct.

Toasty!!
.. are you one of those that didn't sign an NDA??
.. I sure did, way back when..

Oh my! I'm just guessing. All those fedora and trench coats coming and going gotta mean something...

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Mog on March 04, 2003, 08:46:31 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 04, 2003, 09:11:23 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: ragamer on March 04, 2003, 09:39:05 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 04, 2003, 01:46:25 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: CaptStumpy on March 04, 2003, 04:15:49 pm

Quote:

Well, if he's "guessing" out loud, I may just have to ramp up preparations, just in case.

Just in case somebody's forgotten what was put on hold I thought I'd whet your whistles.

http://www.sfcx.net/tow/

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 04, 2003, 10:16:31 pm

Favorite SFC (Total Votes: 149)
SFC 1
10 06%

SFC2 EAW
64 42%

SFC Orion Pirates
43 28%

SFC 3
32 21%

Current totals

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: E_Look on March 05, 2003, 12:07:32 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: TheSatyr on March 05, 2003, 02:53:13 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Toasty0 on March 05, 2003, 05:16:58 am

Quote:

The thing is,we are the hardcore SFC/SFB/Star Trek types. We don't exactly represent the general public. We still play games that the average player put on the shelf along time ago.

And there in exists the crux; is there enough ST/SFC/SFB PC-Gamers to sell 500,000 units world wide within 90 days?

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kevlar on March 05, 2003, 06:44:08 am

Quote:

Quote:

The thing is,we are the hardcore SFC/SFB/Star Trek types. We don't exactly represent the general public. We still play games that the average player put on the shelf along time ago.

And there in exists the crux; is there enough ST/SFC/SFB PC-Gamers to sell 500,000 units world wide within 90 days?

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Maxillius on March 05, 2003, 08:32:11 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Cleaven on March 05, 2003, 09:16:31 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Scorpion on March 06, 2003, 12:14:08 am

BUMP!!

Title: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 01:09:40 am

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: Toasty0 on March 06, 2003, 02:25:13 am

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

Wasn't that released for the C64 too? Right around the time of PoR (Pools of Radiance) I believe.

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: TheSatyr on March 06, 2003, 03:06:55 am

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: TheSatyr on March 06, 2003, 03:12:10 am

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 03:33:42 am

Quote:

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

Wasn't that released for the C64 too? Right around the time of PoR (Pools of Radiance) I believe.

Best,
Jerry

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: Toasty0 on March 06, 2003, 04:26:00 am

Quote:

Not even SFC1 sold 500,000 copies in 90 days...and that was the best selling game in the series.

I just don't see that as being possible...not for a niche game like SFC.

Does anyone know how many copies Bridge Commander sold?

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 05:32:15 am

It would be interesting to have some numbers on the sales of SFC2; Op and SFC3.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Reptor7 on March 06, 2003, 07:05:32 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: TheSatyr on March 06, 2003, 11:40:26 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 06, 2003, 12:33:13 pm

Quote:

Apparently what passes for a true Star Trek game is mostly rubbish, at least from the point of view of somebody who finds Napoleonic miniatures, Panzer Blitz and SFB enjoyable. I think that Sid Meier is responsible for a lot of angst since he made Age of Rifles and let me first enjoy PC games.

Anyhow if there is nothing else to look forward to except FPS and RTS games based on how quick your reflexes are then something is going to be missing for a while. Patching OP will fill that void for a bit I suppose, but I don't see anything else on the horizon. A LAN version of OP would be useful too. Even very good looking games like ORB and Haegemonia still can't give you the same combined tactical and strategic multiplayer experience though.

Best not to think about the future in case it happens.

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 06, 2003, 12:37:02 pm

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

A skipped a few-days worth of classes at university to play Pirates on my old 80286. Loved that game.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 06, 2003, 12:53:10 pm

Quote:

Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC. We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 06, 2003, 02:17:38 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 06, 2003, 03:24:27 pm

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: Mantis on March 06, 2003, 03:48:13 pm

Quote:

Btw, fwiw, SFC(1) sold 350,000 copies in its first year of release*. That is still 150,000 units shy of a "profitable" title according to Erik Bethke in his book " Game Development and Production " .

*Game development and Production, Erik Bethke--Chapter 3, pp24.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: 3dot14 on March 06, 2003, 07:05:00 pm

Quote:

The optimum solution would be for the game to have a slider between the rulesets....

SFB<----------()--------->TV

Imagine how much money could be made if they made everyone happy at the same time with the same game

A slider! well! that's certainly a new one!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 07:59:27 pm

Title: Re: OT:
Post by: kevlar on March 06, 2003, 08:03:30 pm

Quote:

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.

A skipped a few-days worth of classes at university to play Pirates on my old 80286. Loved that game.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 07, 2003, 08:33:50 am

Quote:

Quote:

Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC. We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter.

.. .. yes, but to what extent? Introduction of completely non-SFB features like warping around annoy me..

.. as for a more in-depth campaign system, I have a few ideas I want to toy with. However I have more pressing SFC-related things to do right now, believe it or not. Stay tuned.

-- Luc
FireSoul

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 07, 2003, 08:36:46 am

Quote:

The only think I like about the warping around in SFC3 is the ability to save time closing in on AI targets and the ability to get the hell of the map in a snap. I'd gladly live without that to see "tactical warp" either go away or be severely limited.

As for "to what extent." Good question...and one that will likely never be answered difinitively, though we have been trying for quite some time around here.

.. well.. there *IS* a "get the hell out of there" warping-out method in SFB: disengagement through acceleration.
.. but I'm afraid there's nothing for closing in on the enemies.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: KBF-Dogmatix on March 08, 2003, 08:53:52 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 09:20:34 am

The main issue I have against warping is..
..well..

.. because of it, you can't have seeking weapons.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 08, 2003, 11:10:50 am

Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: kevlar on March 08, 2003, 12:05:48 pm

you missed one thing that is important on my D&D/diablo argument: Time frame. I said that without the sucess that was diablo we would not have had more serious CRPG's on the timeframe we had them.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 12:25:19 pm

Quote:

"However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that without D+D there would have ever been a Diablo, wouldnt you agree?"

Noo.. Diablo was inspired by nethack.

.. nethack, however, was inspired by MANY things, including D&D.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Qob'nuH on March 08, 2003, 12:40:24 pm

Quote:

The main issue I have against warping is..
..well..

.. because of it, you can't have seeking weapons.

-- Luc

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 12:47:31 pm

Quote:

Actually,tactical warping is something that has been missing all along. It would be great to pull a "Picard manuever" or hear the engines straining to out-run heavy plasma. Definately should have been part of a Trek game. As far as seeking weapons , missles are ok but only as a "poor man's" weapon on freighters,pirates,escort shipts,etc.As for plasma, never made any sense as a seeking weapon ; HOW??? no guidance system (and people talk about "magic photons"). The speed of plasma should be increased so you'd have to warp to escape it,makes much more sense. The only true seeking weapon outside of missles should be a special Fed homing torpedo. I don't have a machine that can run SFC3 so i would like these kinds of things in OP (I know thats never gonna happen though).

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Qob'nuH on March 08, 2003, 01:40:05 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: FireSoul on March 08, 2003, 02:01:32 pm

Quote:

"inspired bythe board game Star Fleet Battles"...."uses a great deal of the SFB material,but has also made some changes and enhancements" - Orion Pirates manual Introduction. (for those who may have lost their manual) Inspired by but NOT SFB. The enhancements I think are necessary to help capture the flavor of Trek,something a board game could never do. So for me , bring on the enhancements to make a great game even better.For a strictly SFB-based game, break out the card table.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: 3dot14 on March 08, 2003, 02:21:06 pm

Quote:

Inspired by but NOT SFB. The enhancements I think are necessary to help capture the flavor of Trek,something a board game could never do.

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on March 08, 2003, 02:53:37 pm

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Mentat Jon on March 09, 2003, 09:26:42 am

easy sfc2 more ships more enemies of the Federation to kill

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: jdmckinney on March 10, 2003, 09:24:56 am

Title: Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
Post by: Kroma_BaSyl on March 10, 2003, 11:53:59 am

Quote:

Personally (this is totally subjective), I feel that SFC actually boosted SFB more than the other way around. I don't know if the Interplay/ADB contract stated the SFB material had to be included, but I bet it got ADB more than a few new customers or reintroduced old ones to the game. I have bought all the mainstream (alpha sector) SFB modules of the current ruleset from ADB's site. I don't even PLAY SFB anymore, and didn't have a ton of opportunities to do so in the '80s when I WAS playing. Those SFB products are a wealth of information for SFC mods -- I know that much, at least.

hehehe, sounds exactely like my story.....ADB should be thanking Taldren for my $750 in rule books and miniatures since SFC got me interested again.

Dynaverse.net

Taldrenites => General Starfleet Command Forum => Topic started by: Toasty0 on February 28, 2003, 05:04:03 am