Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 10:16:13 am
Tue Jun 15, 4:49 AM ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US Army unveiled its first new combat uniform in more than two decades, opting for a single camouflage pattern that is supposed to blend into an urban environment as easily as desert or woodlands.
The uniform was tested in Iraq (news - web sites) by soldiers of a Stryker brigade who made a number of suggestions to make it a more practical fit for troops fighting in body armor than the army's current battle dress uniform, officials said.
It has no buttons, only zippers and velcro fastners for everything from unit patches to cuffs and Mao-style collars.
Slanted pockets on the chest allow soldiers to slip their hands more easily under armored vests. Similarly cargo pockets on the pants are positioned so that things don't fall out when they're sitting in Humvees or Stryker armored vehicles.
The uniforms have elbow pouches that can be filled with gel pads to cushion the blow of a bruising dive or crawl.
Soldiers also will be giving up their traditional black boots for tan desert or brown combat boots.
But the most controversial change is likely to be its single camouflage pattern in tan, green and gray for all environments. The army currently has separate battle dress uniforms for woodland or desert environments.
"We were trying to match three basic environments -- woodland, desert and urban combat -- and to get a uniform that worked as best it could in all three," said Brigadier General James Moran.
"Now what we came up with ... is an 80 percent solution in each of those environments," he said.
Moran said the new pattern may not be a perfect match for desert warfare, but even in Iraq the environment changes from desert to lush farmland in the Tigris and Eurphrates River valleys.
"We needed a uniform that allowed us to transition from environment to environment and environment, and not have a absolutely perfect desert uniform," he said.
"We were preparing for combat in the desert, but then we fought in the lush green area between the Tigris and the Euprates rivers," he explained.
Moran also said it was more economical to produce a uniform with a single pattern. The army issues four uniforms per soldier at a cost of 88 dollars each. Creating three variants of the combat uniform would have meant issuing a dozen uniforms per soldier, he said.
The army plans to issue four uniforms apiece to 15,000 soldiers a month beginning in March, and to complete the transition by 2007.
It also is developing a lighter new assault rifle called the XM8, which has interchangeable parts that can be configured as a carbine, a more compact assault rifle, or a longer barreled designated marksman rifle.
The new weapon, which has not yet been approved for production, can be stripped and cleaned in four minutes compared to 11 minutes for the M-16.
In tests, it has fired 15,000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication, said Colonel Michael Smith.
Moran said the army also is producing 138,000 sets of body armor by the end of the year that weighs 16 pounds compared to 25 pounds on the old vests.
In addition, it is producing 50,000 separate sets of armor by September to protect shoulders and under arms to better protect soldiers whose sides are exposed when they drive armored Humvees.
But Moran cautioned that the extra armor comes at a cost in weight and combat effectiveness. He added that even soldiers in body armor and armored Humvees are vulnerable to roadside bombs.
Post by: Capt. Mike on June 15, 2004, 03:39:16 pm
Just some old memories...
Mike
Post by: Scott Allen Abfalter on June 15, 2004, 04:18:20 pm
They need to ask some of the "don't ask; don't tell" guys in their ranks how it looks!
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 04:33:24 pm
Bad thing is now they have said that you can't roll up your sleeves in the summer. Not a good thing for anyone stationed south of Ft. Campell.
Post by: JMM on June 15, 2004, 05:59:23 pm
I still wear my DS BDU shirts, 13 yrs and not a button missing or tear in the shirts, Levi's could NEVER match that!
Yes, a person MUST be able to roll up their sleeves! Try going to NTC in Cali or Ft. Bliss in summertime with this "new" uniform.
Storm? Has the clothing and allowance gone up a lot? I could not believe the prices of BDUs nowadays! The M.I.C. sure is raking off the bucks nowadays for selling military clothing!
Besides the BDUs, let's go back to the sharp khaki dress uniform, looks a LOT better than those butt ugly dress greens.
Post by: Iceman on June 15, 2004, 06:01:24 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 06:34:30 pm
And I hate the green Class-A's too, both the cut and the color- they look like a green Luftwaffe uniform!. Wish that we could go back to green fatigues and khaki uniforms for 'everyday' wear and have BDU's just for in the field.
And I'm hoping that ya'll are right about the sleeves- it was 92 at drill this week andthe AC's went out while we were gone!
Post by: SL-Punisher on June 15, 2004, 07:41:09 pm
Quote:
They need to ask some of the "don't ask; don't tell" guys in their ranks how it looks!
Don't...it's a trap!
Post by: Iceman on June 15, 2004, 07:54:06 pm
Post by: Merlinfmct87 on June 15, 2004, 10:14:42 pm
And whoever said you can't roll up sleeves has never stepped outside his Air Conditioned desk. What a dope.
Merlin
Post by: Rat_Boy on June 15, 2004, 10:32:30 pm
Post by: The_Joker on June 16, 2004, 01:29:18 am
Post by: Sethan on June 16, 2004, 01:54:25 am
Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks velcro closures are a bad thing? First of all, Velcro wears out, second, it could be an extreme hindrance to noise control because even the most stealthy soldier could get snagged on a branch or something. The button wouldn't come undone, but velcro would with a loud noise to boot.
I was thinking much the same thing when I read that - though I was thinking more of needing to get into that pocket while under cover.
Post by: manitoba on June 16, 2004, 02:21:08 am
and it would be funny to see them in cali as i went to boot there in san diego during july and august we had 13 red flag days.
Post by: Clark Kent on June 16, 2004, 03:13:52 am
Quote:
You never know how hot they are until you wear them though. It might be nice and cool on the inside.
Been there, and it bites, majorly. They were barely tolerable when I was in Ft jackson through the summer for basic, and I do mean barely. the only way I got through that summer was by going through 3 pair of underwear and three t- shrts a day in order to cope with the excess sweating.
Once I was fuil time regular army, they became unbearable, since you are pretty much required tio starch the damn things so badly they nearly stand up on their own. This is a very bad thing, since they will not breath at all and the heat just collects in them making them like a sauna. I was in just after they said no rolling up the sleeves, and by then they had also gotten to the point where they wouldn't let us take the BDU tops off when working in the heat. Whoever came up with the idea of never tyaking the BDU tops off or not rolling up the sleeves is some pencil pushing pansy who either hasn't been out working in the heat in decades, or, most likely, doesn't know what it's like to be out in the heat on those damn things.
CK
P.S. I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...
Post by: Villa64 on June 16, 2004, 05:09:51 pm
Regards
Villa
Post by: ferretlxix on June 16, 2004, 06:06:33 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 06:54:17 pm
Spend money on uniforms... LOL, I thought that that was a perq of being in the ranks- you don't have to buy clothes like the guys who go to Knife and Fork School. I'll just let the Sovreign State of Alabama pay for my 4 pair when they come out.
Villa,
I got a couple of looks at the ABDUs in Iraq (never saw anyon a cute female, so I didn't look too hard, I'll admit) but I think that it's a pretty good design. I too take issue on the velcro on the pockets... buttons don't make noise. Velcro is great for guys driving a desk but not for troops in the field. The pockets on the front of the pants will make getting into them easier, but wil make keeping bulky items in them more difficult and uncomfortable, IMHO. Gray is sort of the 'go anywhere' color, but the Army does need to come up with a more specific scheme for troops to be deploied to a certian theater for long periods of time, good enough generally is till you have someone spot you and need to loose them after they know what to look for. Remember this is not designed to hide in a specific area, but a compromise for all areas. The Marines have 2 or 3 varriations on their new fatigues based on theater (green-based, tan-based and white-based(?))- the Army needs something similar.
My least favorite thing is the no-shine boot... I'll miss getting my boots blingin' for formation.
Edit: I also find it kinda funny that the U.S. Army is now wearing gray... us Southrons in the National Guard are going to have a field day with this! I'll have to get Third National and Alabama flags for the arm and a C.S. Army strip printed out for the first drill we wear them... my Lt. (from Indiania) would have a fit, but the NCO's would love it!!
Post by: JMM on June 16, 2004, 07:39:27 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 07:42:47 pm
Post by: Sethan on June 16, 2004, 07:54:58 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 07:57:11 pm
Post by: Villa64 on June 16, 2004, 10:12:20 pm
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004616.asp http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004616.asp
I saw more similarities to the ABDU, including the calf pockets and lower leg closure ties. Personally, I think zippers are a better solution than velcro. Buttons work too.
As for the color, I think the Army may be giving in to reality here. I went to the desert twice, and both times CIF couldnt get us the right uniforms in time, or in correct quantity (in '90 and '03). In '91, the rumor went around that the Rep. Guard was on the lookout for the 'elite forces' from Germany that could be identified by their 'elite green uniforms'. BS... we were wearing woodland pattern BDU's. All the remf's were wearing DBDU. I suspect the 'elite forces' rumor was started by someone up at division who was trying to cover their ass for not being able to get us desert uniforms. Ironsides, baby!
Regards
Villa
(I dont get the URL function, I hope the link shows up!)
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 10:26:47 pm
Yeah, I heard the Desert Storm stories about the 'elite troops' in their green uniforms- like my National Guard MP unit.
We almost went in greens this time.
Now all we have to do is get our fearless leaders to re-adopt full-size rank on the sleeves like in the old days so as you can tell the difference between a First Sergent and a Command Sergent Major after dark at a distance greater than a foot up your butt.
Edit: I also noticed the spaces for intrigal elbow and knee pads, for the soldier's comfort when the Army makes him 'assume the position."
BOHICA!
Post by: manitoba on June 16, 2004, 11:43:31 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 11:56:32 pm
I think it's just the old-timers got their brains fried from all that unauthorized drug testing that the military got by with during their tours. So far as I'm aware, active duty are allowed a pair of boots and 2 suits each of summer and winter BDU's to replace worn or damaged uniforms. In the Guard I would get half that allowance, the boots and one of each type of uniform, though my unit only orders summer-weight BDU's; you don't wear out the cold-weather ones in Alabama... you just get too fat for them.
That is all IIRC, I'll have to ask to be sure.
Post by: Hilton on June 17, 2004, 09:15:42 am
Notice the grey "no polish" boot? Don't know if I like it. I'll wait to see it in person.
Hilton
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 12:51:49 pm
I actually like the gray boot better than the tan ones we are getting. I'd wear it... I just wish that we'd wise up and return to putting the full-size rank on our sleeves like ya'll do instead of the 'little black micro-rank' (tm) that the Army isin love with.
Post by: Hilton on June 17, 2004, 02:00:09 pm
Maybe with some BDU's cut off real high. Maybe I could require my future assistant to wear them! LOL!What micro-rank are you talking about???
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 02:19:20 pm
Basically, our rank on BDU's is as small as the slip-on rank you guys put on the tabs of your Gor-Tex. In bad lighting, you have to rely more on lines on the face than stripes on the collar to tell a person's rank.
And sorry about the boot thing... I like the idea behind an individualistic uniform for all branches, but I saw a Brigadeer in one of the new blue uniforms and had to hurt myself badly niot to laugh as I marvled at their ability to blend in with the folage in Alabama. In Colorado's spruce forrests, they ould work great, but not in pines.
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 04:31:16 pm
Post by: Tremok on June 17, 2004, 05:56:45 pm
Quote:
I got a couple of looks at the ABDUs in Iraq (never saw anyon a cute female, so I didn't look too hard, I'll admit) but I think that it's a pretty good design. I too take issue on the velcro on the pockets... buttons don't make noise. Velcro is great for guys driving a desk but not for troops in the field.
Didn't the Brits come up with noiseless velcro a while back?
So, let's take a good look at this uniform:
Hmm. Is the army trying to make it's soliders as unintimidating as possible? Is the goal to get the enemy to busy laughing at them to shoot at them? To make the enemy believe no one in such a silly uniform could possibly be a threat? Nice camel excrete colored boats, by the way. I note how much better the vest blends in.
So the Army, the Air Force, and the Marines are working on or have new uniforms. The Navy is next in line for new threads, I suppose. Or are they perfectly happy with their spiffy whites?
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 06:09:38 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 06:14:00 pm
.The gray will blend in better in the woods- or desert, for that matter- than it does in that picture. Remember, you don't try to hide in an open field! I'm not happy about the color and would haveprefered a little more green in it, but gray hides pretty well. I hunt in gray coveralls and hve sat quietly in a thicket while my friends walked by several times... and we are all hunters and most of us are in the Guard. Gray works, but I think a greener shade would work better.
The boots I do take issue with- the gray onesHilton showed above look like they would work infinately better, both practicaly and with the uniform.
Post by: Dash Jones on June 17, 2004, 06:50:41 pm
If I had to keep that type of shine up on BDUs, I think it would stink to wear such things. Plus, what practicality would having polished boots be in the field?
Kind of voids the purpose of a BDU...plus...isn't shoe polish flammable?
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 06:59:32 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 07:28:30 pm
And Storm is on the money when he says that the high-polish shines are more a matter of pride than regulations. In fact, for the first 8 weeks of MP training, you are forbiden from spit-shining boots because you are not a soldier yet and you are not allowed to do anything that makes you look any better than the ate-up, rag-bag, [bleep]ed-up as a soup-sandwich civilian in training that you are.
That's just one of the ways soldiers in a garrison enviroment say "I'm a pro." I know when my unit is in garrison for our summer camp (which is rare) everyone going out in patrol cars brings an extra starched pair of BDU's an polished boots with them in the trunk 'for emergencies'. That way, if they get into a scuffle, or even if the humidity just kills the starch job on their uniforms, they can still look as fresh and crisp for a call at the end of thier shift as one at the begining.
Though it is tough on the washing machine... and the iron.
Post by: Byzantine on June 18, 2004, 12:22:14 am
1. the invention of a sadisitc mastermind?
or
2. divine punishment for the sins of the human race?
you tell me.
Post by: J. Carney on June 18, 2004, 12:28:35 am
punishment for sins is just that, punishment... something that teaches a lesson.
Requiring people to starch is just pure outright meanness!
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 10:16:13 am
Tue Jun 15, 4:49 AM ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US Army unveiled its first new combat uniform in more than two decades, opting for a single camouflage pattern that is supposed to blend into an urban environment as easily as desert or woodlands.
The uniform was tested in Iraq (news - web sites) by soldiers of a Stryker brigade who made a number of suggestions to make it a more practical fit for troops fighting in body armor than the army's current battle dress uniform, officials said.
It has no buttons, only zippers and velcro fastners for everything from unit patches to cuffs and Mao-style collars.
Slanted pockets on the chest allow soldiers to slip their hands more easily under armored vests. Similarly cargo pockets on the pants are positioned so that things don't fall out when they're sitting in Humvees or Stryker armored vehicles.
The uniforms have elbow pouches that can be filled with gel pads to cushion the blow of a bruising dive or crawl.
Soldiers also will be giving up their traditional black boots for tan desert or brown combat boots.
But the most controversial change is likely to be its single camouflage pattern in tan, green and gray for all environments. The army currently has separate battle dress uniforms for woodland or desert environments.
"We were trying to match three basic environments -- woodland, desert and urban combat -- and to get a uniform that worked as best it could in all three," said Brigadier General James Moran.
"Now what we came up with ... is an 80 percent solution in each of those environments," he said.
Moran said the new pattern may not be a perfect match for desert warfare, but even in Iraq the environment changes from desert to lush farmland in the Tigris and Eurphrates River valleys.
"We needed a uniform that allowed us to transition from environment to environment and environment, and not have a absolutely perfect desert uniform," he said.
"We were preparing for combat in the desert, but then we fought in the lush green area between the Tigris and the Euprates rivers," he explained.
Moran also said it was more economical to produce a uniform with a single pattern. The army issues four uniforms per soldier at a cost of 88 dollars each. Creating three variants of the combat uniform would have meant issuing a dozen uniforms per soldier, he said.
The army plans to issue four uniforms apiece to 15,000 soldiers a month beginning in March, and to complete the transition by 2007.
It also is developing a lighter new assault rifle called the XM8, which has interchangeable parts that can be configured as a carbine, a more compact assault rifle, or a longer barreled designated marksman rifle.
The new weapon, which has not yet been approved for production, can be stripped and cleaned in four minutes compared to 11 minutes for the M-16.
In tests, it has fired 15,000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication, said Colonel Michael Smith.
Moran said the army also is producing 138,000 sets of body armor by the end of the year that weighs 16 pounds compared to 25 pounds on the old vests.
In addition, it is producing 50,000 separate sets of armor by September to protect shoulders and under arms to better protect soldiers whose sides are exposed when they drive armored Humvees.
But Moran cautioned that the extra armor comes at a cost in weight and combat effectiveness. He added that even soldiers in body armor and armored Humvees are vulnerable to roadside bombs.
Post by: Capt. Mike on June 15, 2004, 03:39:16 pm
Just some old memories...
Mike
Post by: Scott Allen Abfalter on June 15, 2004, 04:18:20 pm
They need to ask some of the "don't ask; don't tell" guys in their ranks how it looks!
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 04:33:24 pm
Bad thing is now they have said that you can't roll up your sleeves in the summer. Not a good thing for anyone stationed south of Ft. Campell.
Post by: JMM on June 15, 2004, 05:59:23 pm
I still wear my DS BDU shirts, 13 yrs and not a button missing or tear in the shirts, Levi's could NEVER match that!
Yes, a person MUST be able to roll up their sleeves! Try going to NTC in Cali or Ft. Bliss in summertime with this "new" uniform.
Storm? Has the clothing and allowance gone up a lot? I could not believe the prices of BDUs nowadays! The M.I.C. sure is raking off the bucks nowadays for selling military clothing!
Besides the BDUs, let's go back to the sharp khaki dress uniform, looks a LOT better than those butt ugly dress greens.
Post by: Iceman on June 15, 2004, 06:01:24 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 06:34:30 pm
And I hate the green Class-A's too, both the cut and the color- they look like a green Luftwaffe uniform!. Wish that we could go back to green fatigues and khaki uniforms for 'everyday' wear and have BDU's just for in the field.
And I'm hoping that ya'll are right about the sleeves- it was 92 at drill this week andthe AC's went out while we were gone!
Post by: SL-Punisher on June 15, 2004, 07:41:09 pm
Quote:
They need to ask some of the "don't ask; don't tell" guys in their ranks how it looks!
Don't...it's a trap!
Post by: Iceman on June 15, 2004, 07:54:06 pm
Post by: Merlinfmct87 on June 15, 2004, 10:14:42 pm
And whoever said you can't roll up sleeves has never stepped outside his Air Conditioned desk. What a dope.
Merlin
Post by: Rat_Boy on June 15, 2004, 10:32:30 pm
Post by: The_Joker on June 16, 2004, 01:29:18 am
Post by: Sethan on June 16, 2004, 01:54:25 am
Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks velcro closures are a bad thing? First of all, Velcro wears out, second, it could be an extreme hindrance to noise control because even the most stealthy soldier could get snagged on a branch or something. The button wouldn't come undone, but velcro would with a loud noise to boot.
I was thinking much the same thing when I read that - though I was thinking more of needing to get into that pocket while under cover.
Post by: manitoba on June 16, 2004, 02:21:08 am
and it would be funny to see them in cali as i went to boot there in san diego during july and august we had 13 red flag days.
Post by: Clark Kent on June 16, 2004, 03:13:52 am
Quote:
You never know how hot they are until you wear them though. It might be nice and cool on the inside.
Been there, and it bites, majorly. They were barely tolerable when I was in Ft jackson through the summer for basic, and I do mean barely. the only way I got through that summer was by going through 3 pair of underwear and three t- shrts a day in order to cope with the excess sweating.
Once I was fuil time regular army, they became unbearable, since you are pretty much required tio starch the damn things so badly they nearly stand up on their own. This is a very bad thing, since they will not breath at all and the heat just collects in them making them like a sauna. I was in just after they said no rolling up the sleeves, and by then they had also gotten to the point where they wouldn't let us take the BDU tops off when working in the heat. Whoever came up with the idea of never tyaking the BDU tops off or not rolling up the sleeves is some pencil pushing pansy who either hasn't been out working in the heat in decades, or, most likely, doesn't know what it's like to be out in the heat on those damn things.
CK
P.S. I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...
Post by: Villa64 on June 16, 2004, 05:09:51 pm
Regards
Villa
Post by: ferretlxix on June 16, 2004, 06:06:33 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 06:54:17 pm
Spend money on uniforms... LOL, I thought that that was a perq of being in the ranks- you don't have to buy clothes like the guys who go to Knife and Fork School. I'll just let the Sovreign State of Alabama pay for my 4 pair when they come out.
Villa,
I got a couple of looks at the ABDUs in Iraq (never saw anyon a cute female, so I didn't look too hard, I'll admit) but I think that it's a pretty good design. I too take issue on the velcro on the pockets... buttons don't make noise. Velcro is great for guys driving a desk but not for troops in the field. The pockets on the front of the pants will make getting into them easier, but wil make keeping bulky items in them more difficult and uncomfortable, IMHO. Gray is sort of the 'go anywhere' color, but the Army does need to come up with a more specific scheme for troops to be deploied to a certian theater for long periods of time, good enough generally is till you have someone spot you and need to loose them after they know what to look for. Remember this is not designed to hide in a specific area, but a compromise for all areas. The Marines have 2 or 3 varriations on their new fatigues based on theater (green-based, tan-based and white-based(?))- the Army needs something similar.
My least favorite thing is the no-shine boot... I'll miss getting my boots blingin' for formation.
Edit: I also find it kinda funny that the U.S. Army is now wearing gray... us Southrons in the National Guard are going to have a field day with this! I'll have to get Third National and Alabama flags for the arm and a C.S. Army strip printed out for the first drill we wear them... my Lt. (from Indiania) would have a fit, but the NCO's would love it!!
Post by: JMM on June 16, 2004, 07:39:27 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 07:42:47 pm
Post by: Sethan on June 16, 2004, 07:54:58 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 07:57:11 pm
Post by: Villa64 on June 16, 2004, 10:12:20 pm
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004616.asp http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004616.asp
I saw more similarities to the ABDU, including the calf pockets and lower leg closure ties. Personally, I think zippers are a better solution than velcro. Buttons work too.
As for the color, I think the Army may be giving in to reality here. I went to the desert twice, and both times CIF couldnt get us the right uniforms in time, or in correct quantity (in '90 and '03). In '91, the rumor went around that the Rep. Guard was on the lookout for the 'elite forces' from Germany that could be identified by their 'elite green uniforms'. BS... we were wearing woodland pattern BDU's. All the remf's were wearing DBDU. I suspect the 'elite forces' rumor was started by someone up at division who was trying to cover their ass for not being able to get us desert uniforms. Ironsides, baby!
Regards
Villa
(I dont get the URL function, I hope the link shows up!)
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 10:26:47 pm
Yeah, I heard the Desert Storm stories about the 'elite troops' in their green uniforms- like my National Guard MP unit.
We almost went in greens this time.
Now all we have to do is get our fearless leaders to re-adopt full-size rank on the sleeves like in the old days so as you can tell the difference between a First Sergent and a Command Sergent Major after dark at a distance greater than a foot up your butt.
Edit: I also noticed the spaces for intrigal elbow and knee pads, for the soldier's comfort when the Army makes him 'assume the position."
BOHICA!
Post by: manitoba on June 16, 2004, 11:43:31 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 11:56:32 pm
I think it's just the old-timers got their brains fried from all that unauthorized drug testing that the military got by with during their tours. So far as I'm aware, active duty are allowed a pair of boots and 2 suits each of summer and winter BDU's to replace worn or damaged uniforms. In the Guard I would get half that allowance, the boots and one of each type of uniform, though my unit only orders summer-weight BDU's; you don't wear out the cold-weather ones in Alabama... you just get too fat for them.
That is all IIRC, I'll have to ask to be sure.
Post by: Hilton on June 17, 2004, 09:15:42 am
Notice the grey "no polish" boot? Don't know if I like it. I'll wait to see it in person.
Hilton
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 12:51:49 pm
I actually like the gray boot better than the tan ones we are getting. I'd wear it... I just wish that we'd wise up and return to putting the full-size rank on our sleeves like ya'll do instead of the 'little black micro-rank' (tm) that the Army isin love with.
Post by: Hilton on June 17, 2004, 02:00:09 pm
Maybe with some BDU's cut off real high. Maybe I could require my future assistant to wear them! LOL!What micro-rank are you talking about???
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 02:19:20 pm
Basically, our rank on BDU's is as small as the slip-on rank you guys put on the tabs of your Gor-Tex. In bad lighting, you have to rely more on lines on the face than stripes on the collar to tell a person's rank.
And sorry about the boot thing... I like the idea behind an individualistic uniform for all branches, but I saw a Brigadeer in one of the new blue uniforms and had to hurt myself badly niot to laugh as I marvled at their ability to blend in with the folage in Alabama. In Colorado's spruce forrests, they ould work great, but not in pines.
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 04:31:16 pm
Post by: Tremok on June 17, 2004, 05:56:45 pm
Quote:
I got a couple of looks at the ABDUs in Iraq (never saw anyon a cute female, so I didn't look too hard, I'll admit) but I think that it's a pretty good design. I too take issue on the velcro on the pockets... buttons don't make noise. Velcro is great for guys driving a desk but not for troops in the field.
Didn't the Brits come up with noiseless velcro a while back?
So, let's take a good look at this uniform:
Hmm. Is the army trying to make it's soliders as unintimidating as possible? Is the goal to get the enemy to busy laughing at them to shoot at them? To make the enemy believe no one in such a silly uniform could possibly be a threat? Nice camel excrete colored boats, by the way. I note how much better the vest blends in.
So the Army, the Air Force, and the Marines are working on or have new uniforms. The Navy is next in line for new threads, I suppose. Or are they perfectly happy with their spiffy whites?
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 06:09:38 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 06:14:00 pm
.The gray will blend in better in the woods- or desert, for that matter- than it does in that picture. Remember, you don't try to hide in an open field! I'm not happy about the color and would haveprefered a little more green in it, but gray hides pretty well. I hunt in gray coveralls and hve sat quietly in a thicket while my friends walked by several times... and we are all hunters and most of us are in the Guard. Gray works, but I think a greener shade would work better.
The boots I do take issue with- the gray onesHilton showed above look like they would work infinately better, both practicaly and with the uniform.
Post by: Dash Jones on June 17, 2004, 06:50:41 pm
If I had to keep that type of shine up on BDUs, I think it would stink to wear such things. Plus, what practicality would having polished boots be in the field?
Kind of voids the purpose of a BDU...plus...isn't shoe polish flammable?
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 06:59:32 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 07:28:30 pm
And Storm is on the money when he says that the high-polish shines are more a matter of pride than regulations. In fact, for the first 8 weeks of MP training, you are forbiden from spit-shining boots because you are not a soldier yet and you are not allowed to do anything that makes you look any better than the ate-up, rag-bag, [bleep]ed-up as a soup-sandwich civilian in training that you are.
That's just one of the ways soldiers in a garrison enviroment say "I'm a pro." I know when my unit is in garrison for our summer camp (which is rare) everyone going out in patrol cars brings an extra starched pair of BDU's an polished boots with them in the trunk 'for emergencies'. That way, if they get into a scuffle, or even if the humidity just kills the starch job on their uniforms, they can still look as fresh and crisp for a call at the end of thier shift as one at the begining.
Though it is tough on the washing machine... and the iron.
Post by: Byzantine on June 18, 2004, 12:22:14 am
1. the invention of a sadisitc mastermind?
or
2. divine punishment for the sins of the human race?
you tell me.
Post by: J. Carney on June 18, 2004, 12:28:35 am
punishment for sins is just that, punishment... something that teaches a lesson.
Requiring people to starch is just pure outright meanness!
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 10:16:13 am
Tue Jun 15, 4:49 AM ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US Army unveiled its first new combat uniform in more than two decades, opting for a single camouflage pattern that is supposed to blend into an urban environment as easily as desert or woodlands.
The uniform was tested in Iraq (news - web sites) by soldiers of a Stryker brigade who made a number of suggestions to make it a more practical fit for troops fighting in body armor than the army's current battle dress uniform, officials said.
It has no buttons, only zippers and velcro fastners for everything from unit patches to cuffs and Mao-style collars.
Slanted pockets on the chest allow soldiers to slip their hands more easily under armored vests. Similarly cargo pockets on the pants are positioned so that things don't fall out when they're sitting in Humvees or Stryker armored vehicles.
The uniforms have elbow pouches that can be filled with gel pads to cushion the blow of a bruising dive or crawl.
Soldiers also will be giving up their traditional black boots for tan desert or brown combat boots.
But the most controversial change is likely to be its single camouflage pattern in tan, green and gray for all environments. The army currently has separate battle dress uniforms for woodland or desert environments.
"We were trying to match three basic environments -- woodland, desert and urban combat -- and to get a uniform that worked as best it could in all three," said Brigadier General James Moran.
"Now what we came up with ... is an 80 percent solution in each of those environments," he said.
Moran said the new pattern may not be a perfect match for desert warfare, but even in Iraq the environment changes from desert to lush farmland in the Tigris and Eurphrates River valleys.
"We needed a uniform that allowed us to transition from environment to environment and environment, and not have a absolutely perfect desert uniform," he said.
"We were preparing for combat in the desert, but then we fought in the lush green area between the Tigris and the Euprates rivers," he explained.
Moran also said it was more economical to produce a uniform with a single pattern. The army issues four uniforms per soldier at a cost of 88 dollars each. Creating three variants of the combat uniform would have meant issuing a dozen uniforms per soldier, he said.
The army plans to issue four uniforms apiece to 15,000 soldiers a month beginning in March, and to complete the transition by 2007.
It also is developing a lighter new assault rifle called the XM8, which has interchangeable parts that can be configured as a carbine, a more compact assault rifle, or a longer barreled designated marksman rifle.
The new weapon, which has not yet been approved for production, can be stripped and cleaned in four minutes compared to 11 minutes for the M-16.
In tests, it has fired 15,000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication, said Colonel Michael Smith.
Moran said the army also is producing 138,000 sets of body armor by the end of the year that weighs 16 pounds compared to 25 pounds on the old vests.
In addition, it is producing 50,000 separate sets of armor by September to protect shoulders and under arms to better protect soldiers whose sides are exposed when they drive armored Humvees.
But Moran cautioned that the extra armor comes at a cost in weight and combat effectiveness. He added that even soldiers in body armor and armored Humvees are vulnerable to roadside bombs.
Post by: Capt. Mike on June 15, 2004, 03:39:16 pm
Just some old memories...
Mike
Post by: Scott Allen Abfalter on June 15, 2004, 04:18:20 pm
They need to ask some of the "don't ask; don't tell" guys in their ranks how it looks!
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 04:33:24 pm
Bad thing is now they have said that you can't roll up your sleeves in the summer. Not a good thing for anyone stationed south of Ft. Campell.
Post by: JMM on June 15, 2004, 05:59:23 pm
I still wear my DS BDU shirts, 13 yrs and not a button missing or tear in the shirts, Levi's could NEVER match that!
Yes, a person MUST be able to roll up their sleeves! Try going to NTC in Cali or Ft. Bliss in summertime with this "new" uniform.
Storm? Has the clothing and allowance gone up a lot? I could not believe the prices of BDUs nowadays! The M.I.C. sure is raking off the bucks nowadays for selling military clothing!
Besides the BDUs, let's go back to the sharp khaki dress uniform, looks a LOT better than those butt ugly dress greens.
Post by: Iceman on June 15, 2004, 06:01:24 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 15, 2004, 06:34:30 pm
And I hate the green Class-A's too, both the cut and the color- they look like a green Luftwaffe uniform!. Wish that we could go back to green fatigues and khaki uniforms for 'everyday' wear and have BDU's just for in the field.
And I'm hoping that ya'll are right about the sleeves- it was 92 at drill this week andthe AC's went out while we were gone!
Post by: SL-Punisher on June 15, 2004, 07:41:09 pm
Quote:
They need to ask some of the "don't ask; don't tell" guys in their ranks how it looks!
Don't...it's a trap!
Post by: Iceman on June 15, 2004, 07:54:06 pm
Post by: Merlinfmct87 on June 15, 2004, 10:14:42 pm
And whoever said you can't roll up sleeves has never stepped outside his Air Conditioned desk. What a dope.
Merlin
Post by: Rat_Boy on June 15, 2004, 10:32:30 pm
Post by: The_Joker on June 16, 2004, 01:29:18 am
Post by: Sethan on June 16, 2004, 01:54:25 am
Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks velcro closures are a bad thing? First of all, Velcro wears out, second, it could be an extreme hindrance to noise control because even the most stealthy soldier could get snagged on a branch or something. The button wouldn't come undone, but velcro would with a loud noise to boot.
I was thinking much the same thing when I read that - though I was thinking more of needing to get into that pocket while under cover.
Post by: manitoba on June 16, 2004, 02:21:08 am
and it would be funny to see them in cali as i went to boot there in san diego during july and august we had 13 red flag days.
Post by: Clark Kent on June 16, 2004, 03:13:52 am
Quote:
You never know how hot they are until you wear them though. It might be nice and cool on the inside.
Been there, and it bites, majorly. They were barely tolerable when I was in Ft jackson through the summer for basic, and I do mean barely. the only way I got through that summer was by going through 3 pair of underwear and three t- shrts a day in order to cope with the excess sweating.
Once I was fuil time regular army, they became unbearable, since you are pretty much required tio starch the damn things so badly they nearly stand up on their own. This is a very bad thing, since they will not breath at all and the heat just collects in them making them like a sauna. I was in just after they said no rolling up the sleeves, and by then they had also gotten to the point where they wouldn't let us take the BDU tops off when working in the heat. Whoever came up with the idea of never tyaking the BDU tops off or not rolling up the sleeves is some pencil pushing pansy who either hasn't been out working in the heat in decades, or, most likely, doesn't know what it's like to be out in the heat on those damn things.
CK
P.S. I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...
Post by: Villa64 on June 16, 2004, 05:09:51 pm
Regards
Villa
Post by: ferretlxix on June 16, 2004, 06:06:33 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 06:54:17 pm
Spend money on uniforms... LOL, I thought that that was a perq of being in the ranks- you don't have to buy clothes like the guys who go to Knife and Fork School. I'll just let the Sovreign State of Alabama pay for my 4 pair when they come out.
Villa,
I got a couple of looks at the ABDUs in Iraq (never saw anyon a cute female, so I didn't look too hard, I'll admit) but I think that it's a pretty good design. I too take issue on the velcro on the pockets... buttons don't make noise. Velcro is great for guys driving a desk but not for troops in the field. The pockets on the front of the pants will make getting into them easier, but wil make keeping bulky items in them more difficult and uncomfortable, IMHO. Gray is sort of the 'go anywhere' color, but the Army does need to come up with a more specific scheme for troops to be deploied to a certian theater for long periods of time, good enough generally is till you have someone spot you and need to loose them after they know what to look for. Remember this is not designed to hide in a specific area, but a compromise for all areas. The Marines have 2 or 3 varriations on their new fatigues based on theater (green-based, tan-based and white-based(?))- the Army needs something similar.
My least favorite thing is the no-shine boot... I'll miss getting my boots blingin' for formation.
Edit: I also find it kinda funny that the U.S. Army is now wearing gray... us Southrons in the National Guard are going to have a field day with this! I'll have to get Third National and Alabama flags for the arm and a C.S. Army strip printed out for the first drill we wear them... my Lt. (from Indiania) would have a fit, but the NCO's would love it!!
Post by: JMM on June 16, 2004, 07:39:27 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 07:42:47 pm
Post by: Sethan on June 16, 2004, 07:54:58 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 07:57:11 pm
Post by: Villa64 on June 16, 2004, 10:12:20 pm
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004616.asp http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2004616.asp
I saw more similarities to the ABDU, including the calf pockets and lower leg closure ties. Personally, I think zippers are a better solution than velcro. Buttons work too.
As for the color, I think the Army may be giving in to reality here. I went to the desert twice, and both times CIF couldnt get us the right uniforms in time, or in correct quantity (in '90 and '03). In '91, the rumor went around that the Rep. Guard was on the lookout for the 'elite forces' from Germany that could be identified by their 'elite green uniforms'. BS... we were wearing woodland pattern BDU's. All the remf's were wearing DBDU. I suspect the 'elite forces' rumor was started by someone up at division who was trying to cover their ass for not being able to get us desert uniforms. Ironsides, baby!
Regards
Villa
(I dont get the URL function, I hope the link shows up!)
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 10:26:47 pm
Yeah, I heard the Desert Storm stories about the 'elite troops' in their green uniforms- like my National Guard MP unit.
We almost went in greens this time.
Now all we have to do is get our fearless leaders to re-adopt full-size rank on the sleeves like in the old days so as you can tell the difference between a First Sergent and a Command Sergent Major after dark at a distance greater than a foot up your butt.
Edit: I also noticed the spaces for intrigal elbow and knee pads, for the soldier's comfort when the Army makes him 'assume the position."
BOHICA!
Post by: manitoba on June 16, 2004, 11:43:31 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 16, 2004, 11:56:32 pm
I think it's just the old-timers got their brains fried from all that unauthorized drug testing that the military got by with during their tours. So far as I'm aware, active duty are allowed a pair of boots and 2 suits each of summer and winter BDU's to replace worn or damaged uniforms. In the Guard I would get half that allowance, the boots and one of each type of uniform, though my unit only orders summer-weight BDU's; you don't wear out the cold-weather ones in Alabama... you just get too fat for them.
That is all IIRC, I'll have to ask to be sure.
Post by: Hilton on June 17, 2004, 09:15:42 am
Notice the grey "no polish" boot? Don't know if I like it. I'll wait to see it in person.
Hilton
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 12:51:49 pm
I actually like the gray boot better than the tan ones we are getting. I'd wear it... I just wish that we'd wise up and return to putting the full-size rank on our sleeves like ya'll do instead of the 'little black micro-rank' (tm) that the Army isin love with.
Post by: Hilton on June 17, 2004, 02:00:09 pm
Maybe with some BDU's cut off real high. Maybe I could require my future assistant to wear them! LOL!What micro-rank are you talking about???
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 02:19:20 pm
Basically, our rank on BDU's is as small as the slip-on rank you guys put on the tabs of your Gor-Tex. In bad lighting, you have to rely more on lines on the face than stripes on the collar to tell a person's rank.
And sorry about the boot thing... I like the idea behind an individualistic uniform for all branches, but I saw a Brigadeer in one of the new blue uniforms and had to hurt myself badly niot to laugh as I marvled at their ability to blend in with the folage in Alabama. In Colorado's spruce forrests, they ould work great, but not in pines.
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 04:31:16 pm
Post by: Tremok on June 17, 2004, 05:56:45 pm
Quote:
I got a couple of looks at the ABDUs in Iraq (never saw anyon a cute female, so I didn't look too hard, I'll admit) but I think that it's a pretty good design. I too take issue on the velcro on the pockets... buttons don't make noise. Velcro is great for guys driving a desk but not for troops in the field.
Didn't the Brits come up with noiseless velcro a while back?
So, let's take a good look at this uniform:
Hmm. Is the army trying to make it's soliders as unintimidating as possible? Is the goal to get the enemy to busy laughing at them to shoot at them? To make the enemy believe no one in such a silly uniform could possibly be a threat? Nice camel excrete colored boats, by the way. I note how much better the vest blends in.
So the Army, the Air Force, and the Marines are working on or have new uniforms. The Navy is next in line for new threads, I suppose. Or are they perfectly happy with their spiffy whites?
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 06:09:38 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 06:14:00 pm
.The gray will blend in better in the woods- or desert, for that matter- than it does in that picture. Remember, you don't try to hide in an open field! I'm not happy about the color and would haveprefered a little more green in it, but gray hides pretty well. I hunt in gray coveralls and hve sat quietly in a thicket while my friends walked by several times... and we are all hunters and most of us are in the Guard. Gray works, but I think a greener shade would work better.
The boots I do take issue with- the gray onesHilton showed above look like they would work infinately better, both practicaly and with the uniform.
Post by: Dash Jones on June 17, 2004, 06:50:41 pm
If I had to keep that type of shine up on BDUs, I think it would stink to wear such things. Plus, what practicality would having polished boots be in the field?
Kind of voids the purpose of a BDU...plus...isn't shoe polish flammable?
Post by: Stormbringer on June 17, 2004, 06:59:32 pm
Post by: J. Carney on June 17, 2004, 07:28:30 pm
And Storm is on the money when he says that the high-polish shines are more a matter of pride than regulations. In fact, for the first 8 weeks of MP training, you are forbiden from spit-shining boots because you are not a soldier yet and you are not allowed to do anything that makes you look any better than the ate-up, rag-bag, [bleep]ed-up as a soup-sandwich civilian in training that you are.
That's just one of the ways soldiers in a garrison enviroment say "I'm a pro." I know when my unit is in garrison for our summer camp (which is rare) everyone going out in patrol cars brings an extra starched pair of BDU's an polished boots with them in the trunk 'for emergencies'. That way, if they get into a scuffle, or even if the humidity just kills the starch job on their uniforms, they can still look as fresh and crisp for a call at the end of thier shift as one at the begining.
Though it is tough on the washing machine... and the iron.
Post by: Byzantine on June 18, 2004, 12:22:14 am
1. the invention of a sadisitc mastermind?
or
2. divine punishment for the sins of the human race?
you tell me.
Post by: J. Carney on June 18, 2004, 12:28:35 am
punishment for sins is just that, punishment... something that teaches a lesson.
Requiring people to starch is just pure outright meanness!