Topic: Patrol Battle Rule Links  (Read 22753 times)

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Offline Mutilator

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2004, 09:30:44 am »
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte

Offline GDA-Kel

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2004, 11:42:14 am »
Just to consolidate our recent 'rulings' under one thread.  Here is the current Addendum to the rules...


A1.  All battles must be fought 3 ships vs 3 ships.  If one side (or both) only has two pilots, one of the pilots must control two ships. 

A2.  For ISC, 4 PPD limit on a 3 ship fleet no restriction on what ship(s) have the PPDs.

A3.  No x-ships in LATE era matches.  1st gen x-ships in ADV era ONLY.  No 2nd gen x-ships allowed in any era.  (Jakle may have already covered this in his rules, but it came up in a previous thread, so it is repeated here).     
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Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2004, 07:11:02 pm »
PBR links are updated

Offline Dfly

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2004, 06:02:28 pm »
Hey I have a Question.   I remember us talking about putting the fast patrol cruisers into their own section.  This would allow us to use a fast patrol ship as well as a combat support with our command ship.   Is this the ruling we are using for this cycle?  just checking.

Also, Jakle, since I noticed you did put all fast ships into their proper categories on the above links, I would like to ask for the GORN list, if the CMF and CMFF that are added to the Fast ships will be taken off the combat support shiplist?  As it stands those 2 ships are on both lists.   It may be the same for other race lists, I have not looked.

thx.

Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2004, 09:37:07 am »
Also, Jakle, since I noticed you did put all fast ships into their proper categories on the above links, I would like to ask for the GORN list, if the CMF and CMFF that are added to the Fast ships will be taken off the combat support shiplist?  As it stands those 2 ships are on both lists.   It may be the same for other race lists, I have not looked.

Some races look correct like the Klingon's, but I noticed that the Feds still have CF refits listed as "combat support" vs "fast cruiser" in addition to the Gorn. Please clarify, otherwise I will assume that all fast cruisers should NOT be listed as "combat support" anymore and only as "fast cruisers" as I believe is the intent and that the matrixs are simply in error, as it seems consistent with all other races.
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Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2004, 02:26:29 pm »
Crap

All the Fast Ships were originally under combat support, but should have been moved out of there to the new Fast Cruiser section.  If they are in both places then that's my error.  Ignore the combat support entry if they are in both places till i get it fixed

Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2004, 03:35:20 pm »
Crap

All the Fast Ships were originally under combat support, but should have been moved out of there to the new Fast Cruiser section.  If they are in both places then that's my error.  Ignore the combat support entry if they are in both places till i get it fixed

Cool, no problem, that was pretty much what I thought.
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Offline Green

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2004, 04:09:40 pm »
Just to consolidate our recent 'rulings' under one thread.  Here is the current Addendum to the rules...


A1.  All battles must be fought 3 ships vs 3 ships.  If one side (or both) only has two pilots, one of the pilots must control two ships. 

A2.  For ISC, 4 PPD limit on a 3 ship fleet no restriction on what ship(s) have the PPDs.

A3.  No x-ships in LATE era matches.  1st gen x-ships in ADV era ONLY.  No 2nd gen x-ships allowed in any era.  (Jakle may have already covered this in his rules, but it came up in a previous thread, so it is repeated here).     


Copy, and a bump.


Kel, can ALL of the rules be restated in this thread?  Would help bro.

Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 10:41:32 am »
Fed Light Battle tug needs to be added as a specialty ship.
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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2005, 04:22:05 pm »
Fed Light Battle tug needs to be added as a specialty ship.

Yup, the LBT seems to have been overlooked.

Offline KBF-Butcher

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2005, 06:45:10 pm »
GZ Starfleet Command: Orion Pirates Rules


I. Divisional Ladder

1. Joining

1.1 Each Fleet participating in the Divisional League can have a single “Squadron” in competition. All members of a Fleet are eligible to fly in the Squadron during the Fleets weekly scheduled matches. Once your Fleet is established and your roster meets the minimum membership requirements, you may request the Lead Admin place enter your Fleet’s squadron into the team pool prior to the start of the next season/cycle. Teams are placed into divisions/conferences at random.

2. Roster Requirements

2.1 For a fleet to be created, an application must be submitted by the Fleet Admiral. Once created, the Roster will have only that Admiral on the Roster. It is then that Admiral’s responsibility to add new members to that fleets roster.

2.2 Each race needs a Race selected as it’s primary race. This is the race that must be flown in all League Matches (exception: see 6.5) as well as the race used in any GamerZ Campaign

2.2.1 Fleet Races – The following are the approved Fleet Races for Gamer-Z: SFC2 Orion Pirates League.

2.2.1.1 Federation

2.2.1.2 Klingon

2.2.1.3 Romulan

2.2.1.4 ISC

2.2.1.5 Gorn

2.2.1.6 Hydran

2.2.1.7 Lyran

2.2.1.8 Mirak

2.2.1.9 Orion Pirates (any Fleet selecting Orion Pirates as their 'race' will be eligible to use any of the 8 Pirate Fleets for ship selection) *edit as of 12/19

2.3 Once a Fleet has a total of 3 members, it is eligible to participate in the League Competition.

2.4 As new members are added (after the start of the Season/Cycle) they must sit out of all matches for a full 7 day cycle before they are allowed to participate in a match.

3. League Admins and Watchers

3.1 If 72 hours or greater before any given match a clan wishes to have a neutral watcher oversee their scheduled match, one may be requested. This will force the match to be a 2v2 team game.

3.1.1 If the assigned watcher is not desired by one of the participating clans then another may be assigned by 48 hours in advance.

3.2 If you wish to apply to become a watcher or league admin go to the following link and fill out the application to become an admin

4. Ranking

4.1 Ranking is based solely upon your win/loss ratio. The system will work very similar to the NFL or MLB where you will compete mostly against clans in your particular division, but also some cross division games.

4.2 The clan with the best overall win/loss ratio will be ranked first place and on down in descending percentage order.

4.2.1 In the case of a tie at the end of the season, the playoff tiebreakers will be as follows:

4.2.1.1 Divisional Record

4.2.1.2 Head to Head Record

4.2.1.3 If still tied the teams will engage in a tie breaker match using normal GZ match rules.

5. Match Setup

5.1 Matches will NOT be arranged as a typical ladder (ie by negotiation). As said previously this League will run like most professional sports.

5.2 All matches and terms are predetermined at the beginning of each week. You are given the schedule of fleets you will face at the start of every new season or cycle.

5.3 It is assumed that all matches will be played on GSA, however teams can make arrangements to play IP direct games if they so desire

5.4 The Forums and Clan Outpost on the GZLeagues.com site are to be used as the main means of communication between clans. This can only be seen by admins who will oversee the match, so it's secure and safe to give out passwords.

5.4.1 Do not use email, icq, msn, aim, or any other means of communication for scheduling a match, unless it is the only means available to give the designated admin or watcher the match schedule information. All other information should be given through either the clan outpost or private forums.

5.4.2 All matches schedules must be agreed upon completely at least 48 hours before the set day and time of the match and 72 hours if a watcher or admin is needed to oversee the match.

5.4.3 There will be one match per week (consisting of a best of 3 series) and must be scheduled on a fairly quick basis. If a match is not scheduled then both clans involved will forfeit the match unless one clan attempts to start negotiations with no reply from the opposing clan. Then the attempting clan will receive the victory by forfeit.

5.4.4 If a team cannot show up on a scheduled date and notifies the admins and opposing clan at least 24 hours in advance of the scheduled day of the match; a reschedule will be allowed within the following week. The team will have to show up for the scheduled rematch or receive a forfeit. If the team who could make the match is unable to find a date to reschedule the match to help out the team who could not make it, then a forfeit will be awarded to the team who could show. Rescheduling is a favor from one team to another and is not to be abused.

5.4.5 A match will start no later then 15 minutes after the agreed upon time.

5.5 The standard match is 3v3.

5.5.1 If a team only has 2 players available,then the match should be 3v3 and 1 player should fly 2 ships

5.5.1.1 Incidents of being able to fly with only 2 players will be tracked. The 3rd instance of it in a season will result in a forfeit.

5.5.2 If only a single player for a team shows, than the match will be a forfeit.

5.6 After each game in a series is completed, a team may change out all or a portion of their players with other members of their Fleet


6.1.2 The TBPV’s will be identified to be used for game 1, game 2 and game 3 and will be used in that order.


6.3 Maps – When the RBG is used to generate the TBPV, I will used the Map type listed, if it is Open or an Asteroid map. If it is any other map type, Open will be used.

6.3.1 What map type to use will be identified by Game 1, game 2, game 3 and must be used in that order

6.3.2 Map size will always be Medium

6.4 Game Speed Setting – to accommodate the possible Dial Up user, the default game speed will be 7. This may be altered by player agreement, however if no agreement can be reached, the default will be used.

6.5 Race – the race a team is affiliated with must be used for all League matches. The only exception is that a Fleet may identify a second race that they would like to be able to use.

6.5.1 The race that fleet is affiliated with will be consider the even odd race, and the second race the even race. On all Odd weeks, the odd race will be used. On all even weeks, the even race will be used. This will be continuously communicated on a weekly basis to make sure the Team and it’s opponents are current on what race will be flown.

7. Anti Cheats

7.1 EZ.ini:This is a REQUIRED feature. It should be active for ALL GZ matches. The ONLY exceptions will be SPECIFICALLY noted instances, and those will be by direction of an Admin.

7.1.1 Using EZ.ini, both Race and BPV should be hidden

7.2 Game Features: Gamer-Z will NOT seek to ban or prohibit any normal function of the game unless it creates an obvious overwhelming advantage for only a few players. To that end, all previously “Taboo” tactics are completely legal, as they are able to be equally used by all. A brief list follows. Note: the below practices ARE NOT prohibited. They are provided as examples of 'Taboo' tactics that are indeed legal. *edit as of 12/19

7.2.1 Use of Admin shuttles

7.2.2 Hit and Run on Sensors

7.2.3 Similar “In Game” callsigns

7.2.3.1 Targeting Designator: If this tactic is employed to mask specific identity, each player must include an individual alpha-numeric designator at the END of their in-game name (i.e. MOK1, MOK2, CBA, CBB, etc). Non-alphanumeric characters are NOT acceptable (Punctuation marks or non-standard characters).

7.2.4 Other Features not previously listed: If the feature is commonly known, available to all, and NOT overwhelmingly advantageous to a minority, it is acceptable by GZ standards. If in doubt, contact a GZ Admin.

7.3 Volley info blocker is not permitted

7.4 Beaming Spare parts off planets is not permitted

7.5 It is recommended that all players use game films for all mathces

8. Connectivity and Ping

8.1 As this is a team based league, a computer and connection that can handle a 3v3 team is essential. Individual teams and players are responsible for their own equipment in terms of being able to effectively participate in a match.

9. After Launch

9.1 If a player disconnects during a match, and no opposing team member has closed within range 20, the game can be restarted. This can be done two times. On the third occurrence, the match will be played out or the team of the dropping player may forfeit. In order to curb disputes, a screen shot should be taken to verify the range of opponents at the point of drop.

9.1.1 When restarting, a new player from the fleet can be subbed in for the player with the problem connection

9.2 If the game crashes all users to desktop, that game will have to be considered void and restarted

9.2.1 When restarting, a new player from the fleet can be subbed in for the player with the problem connection

9.3 Screenshots and Player recordings are the only way to prove anything without an admin present.

9.4 Report/Confirm the game immediately after completion of the match. Failure to do so can result in suspension of the offending clan.

10. Cheating and Disputes

10.1 Cheating: This league has ZERO TOLERANCE for cheating. If a team is found to be cheating, the offending team will immediately be dismissed from the league. Cheating may include intentionally dropping, crashing games, or anything else that may interrupt fair play. Cheating accusations are taken very seriously. Do not accuse anyone of cheating unless there is proof. He said - she said accusations are not reason enough to investigate cheating. Penalty’s could possibly occur with false accusations.

10.2 Disputes: Teams must dispute a match within 24 hours of the SCHEDULED START TIME of the match. Failure to do so means the match can not be disputed. Be sure to zip all screenshots and player recordings into 1 file. E-mail all disputes to a league admin. Admins may ask a team or player to provide certain information to help decide the dispute. Admins have the final say in all disputes. Disputes are taken very seriously. Be sure to have good reason and proof before a dispute is sent.

II. Orion Pirates 'Patrol Battle' OP+ Mod Ladder League

The Divisional League is the primary competitive focus of the Orion Pirates League. Outside the frame work of the Divisional League there exists the Patrol Battle Ladder league. The Ladder has no impact on the performance of a Fleet in the Divisional League. The Patrol Battle Ladder League exists to promote competitive fleet training, personal stat tracking and relationship building amongst the members and their fleets.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14. Drop Rule

14.1 In the event of a drop, the following occurs.

14.1.1 If the game is still in doubt – a replay occurs. Two replays may be attempted. If drops still occur when the game is still in doubt, the game is declared “No Game” and the players walk away. Unless there is reason to believe the other player dropped on purpose to avoid the game:

14.1.1.1 Obviously unfavorable Terms (Negotiated or RBG).

14.1.1.2 Poor initial ship selection.

14.1.1.3 Some other factor which would lead one opponent or the other to believe that the outcome of the game was obvious.

14.1.2 If the drop occurs after – or immediately prior to – overwhelming damage is sustained, the leading player should take a screen shot of the results page. This screen shot – showing the Internals taken – will be used to determine the outcome of the game. The damage must be significantly greater to the one that dropped, or a replay will be mandated (provided #1 does not apply).

14.1.3 If the LEADING player drops after overwhelming damage occurs, a replay is required (Provided #1 does not apply).

14.2 In a TEAM conflict, if a member of a Team drops without having sustained overwhelming damage, the side which lost that member may request a replay. When such a request is made – ALL players are to cease firing. If the side which lost the player does NOT make such a request, and subsequently fires upon the other side, the game continues uninterrupted.

14.3 REPLAY: In the event of a replay, all terms are IDENTICAL. All ships must be the same, with the same upgrades taken in Space dock. Unless agreed upon by BOTH players, the terrain, Map Size, and Game Speed should be the same as well.

14.4 IN THE EVENT OF A DISPUTE: Players are to contact their Chain-of-Command. The respective Fleet Staff Officers should then attempt Conflict Resolution (Replay, walk away, etc).

14.4.1 If the Fleet Staff’s cannot agree, THEN (And ONLY then) an Admin should be made aware of the situation. Note: The default ruling in these cases is “Replay with host (If possible) or walk away”. The ONLY thing that will change this is game film, Room Chat, or screen shots that support a point of contention.

15.1 This should be done IMMEDIATELY after said battle is reported.

16.1 Any conflicts that arise should be handled in a similar manner to that described in section 4.0 (Battle Completion) above. Players are strongly urged to allow their respective Chain-of-Command to assist in all disagreements or disputes. This process may be begun in any way chosen EXCEPT in the public lobbies or Forums.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 07:11:17 pm by [ISC]Butcher »

Offline Nomad

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2005, 08:58:00 am »
Fed Light Battle tug needs to be added as a specialty ship.

Yup, the LBT seems to have been overlooked.

LBT - Is Light Battle Transport not Light Battle Tug.

BTL, and BTL+ i s the Battle Tug Light.  (Similiar but different ships.)

This discussion should be in a different thread.

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2005, 01:58:50 pm »
It's not a discussion. It's a correction.

Every other race's LTT + light battle pod combo is in Combat Support - eg G-LBT, H-LBT, I-LBT, K-LBT, etc. The Fed one was simply missed.

Offline Nomad

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2005, 03:30:10 pm »
It's not a discussion. It's a correction.

Every other race's LTT + light battle pod combo is in Combat Support - eg G-LBT, H-LBT, I-LBT, K-LBT, etc. The Fed one was simply missed.

I did not realize it and will add it to my Combat support for the rest of this cycle.

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2005, 12:23:46 am »
Excellent sportsmanship Nomad. + karma for the 9th!  :thumbsup:

Offline Toast

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2005, 07:38:37 pm »
HI

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2005, 07:52:55 am »
PBR v 4.0 and updated Matrices should be up in a couple weeks.  Since LEague operations will shut down for the summer, this delay shouldn't be a big deal, but for those of you who are trying to set up some informal activity, keep an eye on this thread for when 4.0 is up.

Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2005, 09:52:18 am »
PBR v 4.0 and updated Matrices should be up in a couple weeks.  Since LEague operations will shut down for the summer, this delay shouldn't be a big deal, but for those of you who are trying to set up some informal activity, keep an eye on this thread for when 4.0 is up.

Let me know when you are finished or want help updating matrices. I am ready to start hosting it whenerver you give the word.
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Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2005, 03:05:59 pm »
oh, right - forgot :P

Feel free to start on a Matrix whenever you have the time!  Just let me know which ones you are working on so we don't overlap - although to be honest I probably won't start for another 2 weeks. 

I can send you the page for the 4.0 rules if you think that will help to get started.  Just let me know

Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2005, 04:55:16 pm »
oh, right - forgot :P

Feel free to start on a Matrix whenever you have the time!  Just let me know which ones you are working on so we don't overlap - although to be honest I probably won't start for another 2 weeks. 

I can send you the page for the 4.0 rules if you think that will help to get started.  Just let me know

Just send or point me too it and I will grab it.
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Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2005, 09:29:07 am »

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2005, 11:27:08 am »
For the Matrix work, couple things need to get done across the board:

Battle Tugs (Tugs that are old Heavy Cruiser variants, not the Light ones built off of War Cruisers) need to be marked as taking both the command and combat support slots

Fast Cruisers need to be put back into Combat Support

Asthetically:

I though about seperating Carriers into Large and Small, to clearly seperate the ones that require 2 escorts versus the ones that require one.

I think that's it though....

Oh, and there was a request to add the BPV next to each ship on the Matrix....but I think that's making the Matrix do TOO MUCH work for you (screw you Duck)

Offline Kroma BaSyl

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2005, 08:32:52 pm »

Battle Tugs (Tugs that are old Heavy Cruiser variants, not the Light ones built off of War Cruisers) need to be marked as taking both the command and combat support slots


Why not just command?
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Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2005, 06:24:29 am »
It's consistent with how similar things are handled - The True PFT DN's are both Command and Combat Support.  This is a tug, which makes it inherently Combat Support, but the majority of players here also consider Battle Tugs to be substitute DN's....so they should also be Command

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2005, 11:30:00 am »
In line with this, and the fact that OP+ 4.0 has made Dreadnought Maulers available for all coalition forces, the PBR Matrices will be adjusted to flag all DN's with Maulers as filling both the Command and Combat support functions for that squadron.

At this point, I am not aware of any other new DN variants that also have Combat Support functions aside from those that are True PFT's or carry Maulers.

If anybody know of any, post it here.

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2005, 06:33:25 pm »
Black Jak.......how come you have the L-DND and L-DNDF as command frigates.i have looked at there designation in sfc/op and don't see any "L" in there name. at least for the frigates. as i understand it,this would make them unrestricted frigates.please explain  if i miss-understand

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2005, 07:02:58 pm »
Dude, call me Jakle. 

Anyway - The presence or absense of an 'L' doesn't necessarily make a ship a command variant.  The Fed DDL for example is not a Fed Command Destroyer.

In this case, the L-DND/F is a unique Lyran ship that was produced from the center hull of a Lyran DN.  Now, since I don't currently have my 'R' rules handy, I can't recall what was the specific rational for making this a command variant.  The ship description may have explicitly stated that it is used as a Squadron commander, or perhaps it's unique-ness, or a combination of factors.


Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2005, 04:11:33 am »
i would appreciate if you would look into it,as it is an awsome little ship.beyond having 6 phaser 1's and a decent power curve,i see no reason looking at the ship why it should be classed as a command varient. 


  quote   "In this case, the L-DND/F is a unique Lyran ship that was produced from the center hull of a Lyran DN"  unquote

 in other words,it was made from scrap metal from a dread.this doesn't justify making it a command varient.also looking at your list of lyran command varient,every other lyran frigate and lite cruiser has the "L" designation as a leader

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2005, 07:25:13 am »
I'll go back and look when I can get at my books...

Might be a few days.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2005, 10:21:49 am »
it is an awsome little ship....having 6 phaser 1's and a decent power curve

On second thought - that right there is an excuse to make it Command Variant.  The whole purpose of PBR is to limit the use of of awesome ships.

I won't be happy till everybody has to fly unrefitted D6's in battle!! :P

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2005, 06:59:57 pm »
jakle   i asked a legitimate question.....why is that ship classed as a command varient?? based on every other cv in the lyran frigate and lite cruiser class   there is an "L" to designate  it as a command varient.now we get a decent ship that doesn't have the designation"L"  and you turn it into a cv.all i need to know is the reason for this( a good reason ),please refer to your book  :)

   

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2005, 07:57:31 pm »
go re-read my post TT.

Go find the :P

Think about it....

jesus

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2005, 10:13:02 pm »
well i don't find it humorous.....i asked a simple question      why?  why do you feel the need to personalize this ,by asking me to chill out or words to that effect...oh,and please don't swear  :)  i don't believe it's very polite

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2005, 06:39:13 am »
Have it your way.

"The Mountain Lion is easily the most powerful destroyer in the entire game system.  However, it remained unique because center DN sections were too expensive and difficult to build in greater quantities, and every Mountain Lion deployed would cost the Lyrans a dreadnought"

For all intents and purposes, unique ships end up getting restricted in PBR, because their use is restricted in the source material.


Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2005, 04:14:14 pm »
Have it your way.

"The Mountain Lion is easily the most powerful destroyer in the entire game system.  However, it remained unique because center DN sections were too expensive and difficult to build in greater quantities, and every Mountain Lion deployed would cost the Lyrans a dreadnought"

For all intents and purposes, unique ships end up getting restricted in PBR, because their use is restricted in the source material.




   thank you....i do appreciate .However,i would also appreciate the source material you used to come up with this answer ,so that i may avoid future confrontations of similar circumstances.personally to say this ship is simply the most powerful destroyer is debatable.questions i wonder about are: what type of internals does it take with this dn section? are they comparable to other races internals of the non cv type? why would a dn section be used to build a frigate(to me it was scrap metal being used)?<----does this allow it to take more damage in a match? how does it  rate power curve wise versus other races non command varient type frigates.
                  what i read in your reply sounds like it is your personal opinion.However,if it specifically says that this frigate is a command varient,i would like to see this,and read for myself,why it says it is.Ultimately it would be very edumacational for me and should help improve my understanding of both sfb and pbr.....ty in advance

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2005, 06:15:18 am »
Trauma - being around me and PBR as long as you have, you should know that much of what PBR is IS MY interpretation of SFB's S8 rules, or rather, my interpretation of how those rules translate to SFC.

You could very well call that interpretation an opinion - but keep in mind that that opinion runs throughout the whole of PBR, and not applied arbitrarily to cherry pick specific ships.  I am totally unfamiliar with the DND in terms of how it operates.  I am familiar with it's ship description, which fits the bill for how I dertmine if one off ships (unique or special conversions) get treated.

This isn't debateable.  Let's just say that if you somehow get a surge of the PBR players saying that this ship should be be removed from the Command Variant list and on the off chance I cave, then I then have to go back through every other races Command Variant list and remove any other ship that was placed there with the same rationale as the DND.....just imagine what nasty critters that would unleash for unlimited use against you.

Tell you what I will do though, just because I am a glutton for punishment:  my work just installed these nifty new Scanner/Printer/Fax machines.  I will scan the SFB S8 rules and I will upload them to my PBR website, and provide a link here to them.  I will also scan the ship description for the DND, and email it to you.






Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2005, 09:04:59 am »
I just remembered - Mut actually was kind enough to post a link to the source material available on SFB's website.  Go to the 2nd post in this thread and you'll find it.

I emailed you the DND ship description.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2005, 10:10:01 am »
Patrol Battle Matrices have been updated to OP+ v 4.0 specs (I hope - I am sure I missed siomnething

762_XC

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2005, 11:22:29 am »
L-STL is missing off the Command list, though the STLF is there.

F-LBT is still missing from Combat Support.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2005, 12:51:06 pm »
CONSPIRACY!!!!!

Crap...In addition to that, I did also forget that the Old Heavy Battle Tugs needed to be moved to Command as well.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2005, 01:02:15 pm »
L-STL is missing off the Command list,

Check again - it's there.  Look for L-STL#

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2005, 08:31:26 am »
Matrices are updated...again

762_XC

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2005, 01:26:57 pm »
Isn't the F-HDWC a command ship? You have it in combat support.

H-XFE is a 2nd gen X-ship and should be off the list.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2005, 05:42:53 pm »
That XFE must be an old carry over from when 2nd Gen X ships were theoretically allowed.

I am not sure about the HDWC.  Firesouls Heavy War Destroyers are product of his providing a bunch of different designs, since these ships were modular or whatever.  His naming conventions are a bit puzzling, so if this is a command variant, it must not been clearly spelled out.

THat being said, I did notice he added a new column to the shiplist where he would write things like "COmmand" or "Line Ship"

I'll have to take a look at that one - as well as all the other HWD's for the other races. If this proves to be a Command Variant, I am sure the other races will have a counterpart.

oh joy.... :-\

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2005, 01:53:42 pm »
Isn't the F-HDWC a command ship? You have it in combat support.


Negative.  I checked out the 4.0 Shiplist.  Firesoul calls this a 'Cas' Heavy War Destroyer, short of Casual - which is further short for Casual Carrier.  It carries 4 fighters. 

Actually, since it's a casual carrier (same as many hydran ships are casual carriers) this shouldn't even be Combat Support - this is a line ship.

762_XC

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2005, 04:59:27 pm »
Gotcha. Wierd nomenclature.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2005, 12:30:27 pm »
Hydran Matrix Corrected

For Klinks, ISC, Mirak and Feds:

These races all have a Casual Carrier version of their heavy war destroyer.  Casual Carriers are not subject to carrier/escort rules - these are basically line ships that carry fighters as weapon platforms (like most Hydran ships).

These were initially listed as Combat Support, but they have been removed - they are now unrestricted.

This should be the last update (I hope)

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2005, 06:48:34 pm »
hello again Jakle.......once again into the breech  :)   re: the L- DND   i have finally gotten around to reading the material you sent to me,and i now ask that the L-DND be  placed into it's more proper category,which is Support.This ships two primary role was for local homeworld defense,or used as escorts for carriers and other ships.despite it's exorbitant cost re: making one cost the price of a dreadnaught,it is still just a support vessel,albeit an expensive one.Also the name/class"Mountain Lion",was actually given it by the federation to reflect it's origins and stature,not the command varient designation you feel it should have. As i read the material,i do not believe you should be able to interpret this in any way other than as a support vessel.   thank you

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2005, 09:02:09 pm »
bump

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2005, 10:20:02 pm »
I emailed that thing to you a month ago.

You just now want to chime in on your ruling?

And then you want to bump this as if I am not responding fast enough?

For the record, maybe Support is a better place for it - so long as it's restricted.

But I've got a piece of news for you TT:

v 4.0 is it, and the current Matrix versions are it.

Any further modifications will have to go through Kroma or DH, it's theirs now - should it actually need sheparding (if this gig's dead, what's the point)

Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2005, 09:01:45 pm »
I emailed that thing to you a month ago.

You just now want to chime in on your ruling?

And then you want to bump this as if I am not responding fast enough?

For the record, maybe Support is a better place for it - so long as it's restricted.

But I've got a piece of news for you TT:

v 4.0 is it, and the current Matrix versions are it.

Any further modifications will have to go through Kroma or DH, it's theirs now - should it actually need sheparding (if this gig's dead, what's the point)


    Jakle    pull your head out of your  - - -  and smell the free air      this all started when you erroneously placed the L-DND  into a command varient class. I simply asked why you placed it there,when there was nothing showing in the ship description to explain why it was placed there.I SIMPLY ASKED???You for some reason(as usual) when i ask a question, answered it rudely or at least flippantly and stated it was command varient,because i described it as an "awsome ship",and all "awsome ships",get a designation of command varient.I accepted this but asked for your source material for your reasoning,simply to understand.U don't seem to have a problem answering other peoples concerns ,about why a certain ship gets placed in a particular category.Why do you have probs with my questions?
                     As for the "bump" that was not to speed you up ,but as you had posted a new thread after i had given a response,i figured you didn't get the indication showing when a new response had been posted to a thread,so i bumped it,PLAIN AND SIMPLE,not as "YOU" supposed to speed up your reply.SOOOOOO,grow up and get over whatever you feel it is,that i offended you in the past.Near as i can remember,both publicly and by private message i have tried to bury the hatchet with you,apparently....... to no avail.If PBR doesn't continue on in the future,that would be ashame,as it was a great idea you came up with,and those in the sfc community that like it or some form of ladder league will miss it.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2005, 07:55:46 am »
'Erroneously' in your opinion....which doesn't go too far with me. 

It seems to me that the ulterior motive is to have the ship placed in support, where it can be used along side another command variant, thus bringing into play two strong ships, where currently you couldn't with the DND as a command variant.

However, in the end, it's all subjective.  Hell, I can admit the possibility of me being wrong.  It would seem PBR has been a 2 year exercise in that.

The bottom line is I am no longer maintaining PBR.  I carried through to where it is, and now I am done with it.  I gave you an oppurtunity to get a final resolution on this - you neglected to follow up on it till now.  You missed the boat with me. 

You can take it up with Kroma (who had offered to host PBR on his own website - at which point I'll take it off mine).  If he opts to not pick it up, then it will remain up on mine indefinitely - but it will not be updated.

You may want to consider copying and pasting the ship description into a seperate thread and getting the rest of the PBR playing community's opinion - that's what I would have ended up doing.

Good Luck.



Offline TraumaTech

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Re: Patrol Battle Rule Links
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2005, 05:59:43 pm »
'Erroneously' in your opinion....which doesn't go too far with me. 


i didn't base my last response on my opinion,but on the material you sent me,which i have started a new thread in which i typed out that same material verbatim.........



It seems to me that the ulterior motive is to have the ship placed in support, where it can be used along side another command variant, thus bringing into play two strong ships, where currently you couldn't with the DND as a command variant.


  prior to finding out it had been placed in command varient,i had it placed as a  unrestricted ship,because there was no description  decribing it as a command varient or escort.As such i only wanted to know why this particular ship which didn't have an "L" or "E" as part of it designatiom was now a command varient.No ulterior motive at all;after having read your material,i agree that it should be restricted,as a support vessel,not command varient.Would i like to have it as an unrestricted ship.....YES,who wouldn't??I am only doing ,as one of FSD leaders what is best for the lyran fleet/race,and according to SFB source material,it was used as a support vessel




However, in the end, it's all subjective.  Hell, I can admit the possibility of me being wrong.  It would seem PBR has been a 2 year exercise in that.


        PBR  has been a two year exercise in learning ships and tactics.Any errors/mistakes i am fairly certain are more in your mind than in the SFC/OP community ..........job well done        :notworthy: