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#### Nemesis

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##### The revolution has arrived.
« on: January 04, 2005, 06:18:55 pm »

Quote
Sounds hard to believe? Well, IDC analyst Al Gillen recently said that "Linux is no longer a fringe player. Linux is now mainstream." He made that observation because IDC's research predicts that Linux's overall revenue for desktops, servers and packaged software running on Linux will exceed $35 billion by 2008. Quote It's not just HP and Linux companies like Red Hat and Novell that are greeting Linux with open arms. IBM, Intel and Oracle have embraced Linux. None of these companies are doing it because they get warm fuzzies from neo-hippie, socialist dreams of open software and free love, as some hyperventilating critics have claimed. They're doing it because Linux makes good, hard business sense. Quote I even see Microsoft Office, perhaps the most bloated software suite ever, finally losing ground. That's because Sun's open-source OpenOffice.org 2.0 is looking very, very good. Not only does it have excellent Office file format compatibility, it's finally become a fast application. I've used OpenOffice for ages, but I've never warmed up to it. It's always been too darn slow. With this last pre-beta, though? woo! Look out Microsoft Office, OpenOffice means business. Quote The revolution has arrived. Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### Sirgod • Whooot Master Cattle Baron • Global Moderator • Vice Admiral • Posts: 27814 • Gender: ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #1 on: January 04, 2005, 06:22:58 pm » That is very good news. I hope more Game Developers catch on, and I say this in earnest. Stephen "You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12504 ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #2 on: January 04, 2005, 06:44:01 pm » That is very good news. I hope more Game Developers catch on, and I say this in earnest. Stephen One thing that game developers could do is put a game on a bootable Linux DVD. Compatible hardware could be listed on a web site as could patches. On bootup the DVD could check the harddrive for patches and saved games and apply the patch to the version in memory. An alternate would be to include a flashdrive (or ability to access a generic one such as my 5 compact flash cards) on which the patches and saves could be stored. Such a system might make a good games console. Since the DVD supplies the operating system permanent storage could be left out, lowering the price. The fact that Linux is already ported to numerous processor architectures would allow the console to use the most economical processor rather than the most powerful. There are already bootable linux CD distributions. Knoppix and Mandrake Move are just two of them. There is even a Knoppix variant that is all opensource games. Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### Javora • America for Americans first. • Commander • Posts: 2969 • Gender: ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #3 on: January 04, 2005, 07:11:56 pm » I've always thought of this as a matter of when not if it is going to happen. But the key to all of this is the game producers. When they start making the games themselves in Linux and not just the servers then we will see people taking a hard look at Linux. I'm still holding out hope that Blizzard will make Starcraft 2 for both Microsoft and Linux like the original Starcraft was made for PC and Mac. I can't wait for the day when Microsoft has to make MS Office for the Linux platform. At that point we can finally say good-bye to Windows bloatware and DRM for good. It's all just a matter of time. #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12504 ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #4 on: January 04, 2005, 07:27:18 pm » There are some big name games on Linux. Never Winter Nights for one. Several major shooters as well. Challenges for Microsoft: Windows - Linux Office - OpenOffice, Sun Office, KOffice Internet Explorer - Mozilla, FireFox, Konquerer Outlook - Thunderbird - Sunbird Access - MySQL IIS - Apache Several of these run on Windows as well as Linux (some also run on MACs). The OpenOffice file format may become an ISO standard. FireFox/Mozilla have been recommended by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Thunderbird is newer but picking up steam. Sunbird is an expansion of Thunderbird to compete with Outlooks PIM abilities that Thunderbird does not try to integrate. Apache equals or exceeds IIS in market penetration but is rarely targetted for attacks. Could it be that it is more secure? Originally the PC was targetted at offices. People who used them at the office bought the same machine and OS to use at home, the games folllowed. The Linux route seems to be Server - Office Desktop - Home Desktop - Home games machine. The transition to Office Desktop is ongoing. In servers from small printservers to firewalls to supercomputers Linux is there as a major and strengthening force. Linux is already available on a far wide array of device types than Windows ever has been or will be. Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### Javora • America for Americans first. • Commander • Posts: 2969 • Gender: ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #5 on: January 05, 2005, 07:14:00 am » There are some big name games on Linux. Never Winter Nights for one. Several major shooters as well. I was talking about games that were natively coded for Linux on the game CD's. Not after market port over from Windows or game servers. IMHO when some big name games start making games for both Linux and Windows coded on to the game CD's. Like the way Blizzard coded Starcraft for both Windows and Mac, then I think we will see some real interest for Linux. IMHO people are not too keen on ported over games from Windows to Linux because there not sure if the ported game will mess up their system or they just don't know about these ports. BTW Nemesis the rest of your post I think was dead on, I just wish "the Linux route" hurried up and moved a little faster is all. I know, I know, you can't rush perfection... #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12504 ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #6 on: January 05, 2005, 04:07:37 pm » BTW Nemesis the rest of your post I think was dead on, I just wish "the Linux route" hurried up and moved a little faster is all. I know, I know, you can't rush perfection... Each step needs to be done in order for the next to be achieved. Games have begun there stage. Much as Gates hates it and fights it, it will happen. I'm patient I can wait. Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### Javora • America for Americans first. • Commander • Posts: 2969 • Gender: ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #7 on: January 06, 2005, 09:57:18 pm » Looks like the Linux movement just took another step forward as Adobe releases Acrobat 7 with Linux reader support. You can read more about it here: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5514228.html #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12504 ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #8 on: January 06, 2005, 10:00:52 pm » Looks like the Linux movement just took another step forward as Adobe releases Acrobat 7 with Linux reader support. You can read more about it here: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5514228.html I normally avoid ZiffDavis due to their bias towards whoever pays the most in ads. But this is interesting. Not quite as important as it could have been, as there are programs for Linux that can already create PDFs, I can't say if they are full featured or not but they do exist. Thanks Javora. Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### toasty0 • Application.Quit(); • Captain • Posts: 8045 • Gender: ##### Re: The revolution has arrived. « Reply #9 on: January 08, 2005, 09:44:37 am » Link to full article on eWeek Quote Sounds hard to believe? Well, IDC analyst Al Gillen recently said that "Linux is no longer a fringe player. Linux is now mainstream." He made that observation because IDC's research predicts that Linux's overall revenue for desktops, servers and packaged software running on Linux will exceed$35 billion by 2008.

And he basis his claim on his prediction?

Quote
It's not just HP and Linux companies like Red Hat and Novell that are greeting Linux with open arms. IBM, Intel and Oracle have embraced Linux.

None of these companies are doing it because they get warm fuzzies from neo-hippie, socialist dreams of open software and free love, as some hyperventilating critics have claimed. They're doing it because Linux makes good, hard business sense.

Of course they have embraced Linux with open arms. C'mon, do you go with the "date" that charges or the one who gives it away? It's not a matter of wether Linux is a superior product (it isn't), but rather at its price point Linux gives just enough service and it affords those companies a greater bottom line.

Quote
I even see Microsoft Office, perhaps the most bloated software suite ever, finally losing ground. That's because Sun's open-source OpenOffice.org 2.0 is looking very, very good.

Not only does it have excellent Office file format compatibility, it's finally become a fast application. I've used OpenOffice for ages, but I've never warmed up to it. It's always been too darn slow. With this last pre-beta, though? woo! Look out Microsoft Office, OpenOffice means business.

Quote
The revolution has arrived.

Sad, ain't it. Now we can rejoice at the maturation of open source and out sourcing as one more nail in the financial coffin of North American developers and programmers.
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

#### Javora

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2005, 08:18:18 pm »
I'm sorry but I just don't buy that.  Microsoft is not the be all, end all when it comes to American developers and programmers.  If anything the Linux OS will level the playing field for developers and programmers.  This is going to spur more competition between companies with less overhead.  BTW Microsoft is just as guilty for outsourcing work overseas as any other company.  With Microsoft getting in bed with RIAA, MPAA and forcing DRM down everyone throats, Linux is looking better and better every day.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2005, 09:15:25 pm »

Sounds hard to believe? Well, IDC analyst Al Gillen recently said that "Linux is no longer a fringe player. Linux is now mainstream." He made that observation because IDC's research predicts that Linux's overall revenue for desktops, servers and packaged software running on Linux will exceed $35 billion by 2008. And he basis his claim on his prediction? The firm he works for makes a living analyzing tech trends and forcasting the future. Whether this forecast is accurate will be seen in the future. The thing that I would like to know is who funded the study and on what terms? There have been such studies that were funded with a predetermined result (tobacco companies lung cancer research for example.) Anyone who promotes either Microsoft or Linux has to face the question of whether they have a bias towards one or the other. This is inevitable as several "studies" that have come out pro-Microsoft have turned out to have been funded by Microsoft and to have been heavily slanted towards Microsoft in their methods of gaining data and choosing what to present. I will volunteer that I neither profit nor lose if Microsoft loses. The only thing that makes me want Microsoft to fail is the fact that I dislike the many criminal acts that they have committed and I like to see criminals punished. It's not just HP and Linux companies like Red Hat and Novell that are greeting Linux with open arms. IBM, Intel and Oracle have embraced Linux. None of these companies are doing it because they get warm fuzzies from neo-hippie, socialist dreams of open software and free love, as some hyperventilating critics have claimed. They're doing it because Linux makes good, hard business sense. Of course they have embraced Linux with open arms. C'mon, do you go with the "date" that charges or the one who gives it away? It's not a matter of wether Linux is a superior product (it isn't), but rather at its price point Linux gives just enough service and it affords those companies a greater bottom line. If it was only the companies that supply Linux that had embraced it I might well agree with you. Red Hat is pure Linux and is in the black. IBM invested$1 billion the first year they were in to Linux services and broke even on it.  Now they are profitting enough to make a multi year court battle with The SCO Group worthwhile.  Mandrake even after being screwed by venture capitalists to the point of having to enter bankruptcy protection are back in the black as well.

Obviously they have customers for Linux able and willing to pay big bucks for those services.  IBM is not known for being cheap to deal with.  These and other Linux service providers do billions of dollars in business each year and each year the total grows rapidly.

I even see Microsoft Office, perhaps the most bloated software suite ever, finally losing ground. That's because Sun's open-source OpenOffice.org 2.0 is looking very, very good.

Not only does it have excellent Office file format compatibility, it's finally become a fast application. I've used OpenOffice for ages, but I've never warmed up to it. It's always been too darn slow. With this last pre-beta, though? woo! Look out Microsoft Office, OpenOffice means business.

Sad, ain't it. Now we can rejoice at the maturation of open source and out sourcing as one more nail in the financial coffin of North American developers and programmers.

Where is the connection between out sourcing and Linux?  If anything this reduces it.

It makes it possible for the little guy to offer services in his home town to small businesses.  Which would you prefer when having problems, the long on holds waiting for a MS tech to walk you through things from scripts (most of which you tried before calling) or the local tech service company sending a tech over to handle the problem in person?

It does however have the effect of less money flowing to the Microsoft coffers in the U.S. as local companies in each country are providing Linux and Linux Services.  It also means that there will be more money left in the companies who used to pay Microsoft, money that they can use for other purposes, whether paying dividends or reinvesting in their own company (and buying goods and services from other companies that they couldn't afford before)

It also takes away the hammer that Microsoft uses to pound nails into the coffins of anyone who creates a market big enough for Microsoft to want it.  Microsoft did not create the Spreadsheet, Word Processor, Database or Web Browser markets (among others), other companies did, then Microsoft committed criminal acts to take it from them and destroy those who had created those markets

I fully expect that as Microsofts market is eroded and the Linux market builds that there will be a great many fortunes made and many new products created.  Fortunes made both in the U.S. and around the world.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Bonk

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2005, 03:32:24 am »
I just hope the Fedora/Redhat line (and similar distributions that want money ultimately) does not dominate and continue on it's current MS like path of bloating and sloppy development... or we'll be no better off.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2005, 03:52:37 am by Bonk »

#### Bonk

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2005, 03:41:29 am »
Sad, ain't it. Now we can rejoice at the maturation of open source and out sourcing as one more nail in the financial coffin of North American developers and programmers.

My thoughts on this aspect of the discussion is that open source software can be validated according to 21CFRPart11, proprietary software cannot. (Thank Clinton.. )

From a scientific standpoint open source is the only stable promise for the future. For example, personally I would prefer if multinational multibillion dollar space exploration efforts did not depend on proprietary "black box" software... mission critical software must be open for inspection. The more people that inspect it, the more likely any problems will be found. Sure expensive and impossible to protect liscencing agreements might be able to achieve a similar result but I would not have as much faith in it.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2005, 05:03:27 pm »
I just hope the Fedora/Redhat line (and similar distributions that want money ultimately) does not dominate and continue on it's current MS like path of bloating and sloppy development... or we'll be no better off.

Which of course is the advantage of open source.  There are always alternatives.

Debian, Gentoo, Xandros, Lycoris, Yggdrasil, Slackware, SUSE and many more.   You don't even have to stay x86 if you don't want to.  Given the right skill set you can even create your own.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### toasty0

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2005, 12:44:36 am »
Just so not everyone is mislead into thinking that Linux is a panacea of security safety.

Synopsis:  Linux kernel uselib() privilege elevation
Product:   Linux kernel
Version:   2.2 all versions, 2.4 up to and including 2.4.29-pre3, 2.6 up
to and including 2.6.10
Vendor:    http://www.kernel.org/
URL:       http://isec.pl/vulnerabilities/isec-0021-uselib.txt
CVE:       CAN-2004-1235
Author:    Paul Starzetz <ihaquer@isec.pl>
Date:      Jan 07, 2005
Updated:   Jan 09, 2005

Issue:
======

Locally  exploitable  flaws  have  been found in the Linux binary format
loaders'  uselib()  functions  that  allow  local  users  to  gain  root
privileges.

Jerry
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#### Javora

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2005, 07:20:04 am »
Yep Linux is still a work in progress, which is why I still have not installed on to my system.  But it is getting there, it is just a matter of time.  I just wish the time frame would move a little faster.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2005, 07:28:25 pm »
Just so not everyone is mislead into thinking that Linux is a panacea of security safety.

Jerry

Of course it isn't perfect.  But can you name one product that is?

How long do you think it will take before there is a fix available for this?  Linux tends to be patched fast when a defect is found.  Anyone with the skill and desire can provide a fix and have it end up being incorporated into Linux.

Windows is only patched if Microsoft thinks it worthwhile.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2005, 08:07:30 pm »
For toasty.  A Microsoft security flaw article Link

Quote
"Easy to fix"

A statement posted to GreyHats Security Group's website defends the decision to post the example code online, on the grounds that Microsoft was alerted to the problem in October 2004.

"Think of how irresponsible it was of Microsoft to not patch these vulnerabilities during the several months that they were known," says a statement from GreyHats. "It would have been easy to fix some of the core vulnerabilities."

Notice that they have been known to Microsoft for months and have not been patched.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### toasty0

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2005, 08:25:33 pm »
For toasty.  A Microsoft security flaw article Link

Quote
"Easy to fix"

A statement posted to GreyHats Security Group's website defends the decision to post the example code online, on the grounds that Microsoft was alerted to the problem in October 2004.

"Think of how irresponsible it was of Microsoft to not patch these vulnerabilities during the several months that they were known," says a statement from GreyHats. "It would have been easy to fix some of the core vulnerabilities."

Notice that they have been known to Microsoft for months and have not been patched.

Nem,

I'm not sure I've ever said MS is better or worse. I have said I prefer MS products over Linux, but no were I have said one is superior over the other as you have asserted many many times. An assertion I believe to be patently false. OSs are like tools, cars, and women (or men if that is the reader's choice), in that each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Jerry

Jerry
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2005, 08:56:13 pm »
Nem,

I'm not sure I've ever said MS is better or worse. I have said I prefer MS products over Linux, but no were I have said one is superior over the other as you have asserted many many times. An assertion I believe to be patently false. OSs are like tools, cars, and women (or men if that is the reader's choice), in that each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Jerry

On security I believe that Linux is superiour.  Mainly because Linux is based on the Unix specification which includes security from the ground up, whereas Windows was designed without security until after internet access was added.  Then they began to add security but only where profitable to do so.  They rely too much on the security by obscurity model, which fails as soon as your code escapes, which has happened to Winodws.

I don't recall ever asserting that Linux was superior overall.  If it was I would not be posting this from a Windows 2000 Pro system (using Firefox for browsing).  I have said that I won't be buying anymore Microsoft products so long as they maintain the activation system and try to control what I may do with my computer and my legal copy of Windows.  There are ways in which Microsoft has superiourity, mostly (but not exclusively) as a result of the monopoly power they hold.

I've attacked them for attempting to control my use of my property.  I've attacked them for their criminal acts both past and ongoing.  When they act with respect of the rights of others and within the law then I can go back to supporting them.

I think it is better for computer users and the computer industry (and ultimately the entire economy) if Microsoft is dethroned.  They have concentrated too much power in their hands and they abuse that power.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Javora

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2005, 09:26:51 pm »
What Nemesis said including the Win2000/Firefox (Mozilla) bit, and he said it better than I probably could have.

#### toasty0

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2005, 11:55:17 pm »
Ok, I'll but some of your argument.

Tangential to this, have you looked at DotNetNuke? I like it so far as an open source portal software. Been futzing around with it at http://www.toasty0.net and http://www.DotNetGroup.org

Jerry

MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

#### GE-Raven

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 10:52:21 am »
As a network administrator I will tell you how Microsoft (granted we run a Novell Network) is superior...

Stadardization... The fact of the matter is that people inherently "know" Microsoft and it is a lot eaiser on an organization to use it.  When you talk of security sure Linux is safer... but the very reason for that is the same one Mac had for years.There aren't enough user's to make viruses/expolits/etc... worth it to the malcontents that write them.  Factor in the fact that almost all people who use linux are faiirly advanced computer users (in other words microsoft is "child's play" to them) and it stands to reason that their inherent skills (as a whole) make it more likely that any patches, fixes, etc... will be applied.

Those who prey on computers want massive numbers of stupid people (ignorant would be a better term) who not only allow the machine to be vulnerable but also are unlikely to detect the problems that are caused.  More over they certainly will have little ability to fix the problems.  While it is certainly tougher to "hack" the Linux box, that difficulty is disproportionate to the difficulty in use to the average joe user.  So from my "support" standpoint, I don't much care if the box is safer if it is virtually unuseable to the office it is assigned.

At the end of the day it is kind of like the Porche vs. Vette arguements.  While there is no doubt in my mind a porches is a far "superior" driving machine.  90% of the population will be able to go faster in a Vette, because it is easy to do so.

GE-Raven

#### Bonk

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##### Re: The revolution has arrived.
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2005, 07:08:52 pm »
I just hope the Fedora/Redhat line (and similar distributions that want money ultimately) does not dominate and continue on it's current MS like path of bloating and sloppy development... or we'll be no better off.

Which of course is the advantage of open source.  There are always alternatives.

Debian, Gentoo, Xandros, Lycoris, Yggdrasil, Slackware, SUSE and many more.   You don't even have to stay x86 if you don't want to.  Given the right skill set you can even create your own.

Right, but the thing is that Fedora/Redhat is the most popular because it is the easiest one to use includes the most drivers and is most like windows (but less stable).

I am a fan of the purer Unix-like OSs like FreeBSD or QNX... they tend not to bloat in that windows/redhat style and are far more efficient and secure.

If I were going to go linux I'd use Slackware, but I see linux as a trend, just like windows was, any OS that becomes very popular will eventually suffer from the same problems.  (like making concessions to run on cheap dell-like hardware...)

If FreeBSD will run on it and recognise all the hardware, it is a quality PC; if not, corners have been cut and you'll be better off with Linux or Windows which accounts for substandard hardware. (and therein lie their problems)