Topic: Question about last night's capture  (Read 8823 times)

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Offline KHH Jakle

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Question about last night's capture
« on: July 17, 2005, 09:39:26 pm »
First off - good job catching Duck with his pants aroung his ankles.

Honestly, we thought the game technically would not allow captures in GSA - that it only worked in D2.

I do wonder if that was a factor the game crashing (which resulted in no after action txt)

Anyway - the immediate question I had was:  when you captured his ship, did it just become and AI wing to one of you?  Were you able to control it directly?  Is it realistic to expect that after a capture, you could get it off the map?

762_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2005, 02:08:03 am »
From what Bear said, he could not control the ship at all, even to make it SD.

Not only that, the ship apparently tractored Cougar and still acted hostile to him even after it was captured, preventing him from disengaging.

Obviously the script has problems.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2005, 09:21:02 am »
Obviously the script has problems.

Well - let's look at this for a second.

I think it is the script that is enabling capturing to begin with.  I don't believe that a regular FFA in GSA would allow for capture.  I know it works in D2...but for us, having this happen on GSA caught us by surprise.

So, if the script is allowing capture, that's something new to consider.  I actually commented in the original EoW thread "too bad you can't capture, because that's worth 200% of the ships BPV".  So with the script, it becomes a factor.

Then you have to consider the faulty implementation of it - so you can capture, but it doesn't work as in D2 in that you can't control it.

As to the ships continued hostile action - Duck made comments to the effect that he still had partial control of the ship after capture.  That may account for the continued hostile acts.  I remember actually saying to him "if they have your ship captured, stop trying to control it"  I'll have to ask him if he actually willfully slapped that tractor on after capture, or if the ship did that on it's own.

Aside from that, it appears as if the capture may have resulted in the games crashing at the end - although I am not certain what final action caused the crash.  I thought I remembered hearing about some script that would allow capture for OP but did have certain crash issues - perhaps this is the one?

Anyway - let's discuss the above some before round II.

As for other script issues - I know one of you guys said you had issues launching a shuttle at one point, but aside from that (which I have heard being an issue from time to time in general FFA games) I am not aware of any other real issues.  The script is quirky - but it seems to work.  Any other issues I am unaware of...let's list them.

Ya know - I have doubts that this script was every heavily playtested.  I wonder if Centauri Vaughn would be in a position to tweak it further....








762_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 10:01:55 am »
The other thing I noticed was that your teammates seemed to be trying to recapture the FD7. I can only assume they were unsuccesful due to a script bug, and ended up destroying it instead.

Realistically, if a ship gets capped we should probably consider whether it could make it off the board or not. If so then the full 200% should be awarded; if not, then 100% for a kill (since the capturing player would then SD it to prevent recapture).

Had things worked properly, I think the likely outcome would have been:

DG (me) - destroyed
KN (Cougar) - tacoed
CU (Bear) - tacoed

FD7K (Duck) - destroyed

Offline KHH-MiniMe

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 01:23:08 pm »
The other thing I noticed was that your teammates seemed to be trying to recapture the FD7. I can only assume they were unsuccesful due to a script bug, and ended up destroying it instead.

Realistically, if a ship gets capped we should probably consider whether it could make it off the board or not. If so then the full 200% should be awarded; if not, then 100% for a kill (since the capturing player would then SD it to prevent recapture).

Had things worked properly, I think the likely outcome would have been:

DG (me) - destroyed
KN (Cougar) - tacoed
CU (Bear) - tacoed

FD7K (Duck) - destroyed

The third ship wouldn't have made it off the map had I not been wasting my time trying to recapp Duck's vessel....we were all like huh? Duck's captured? How? I wish I had known about capping and stuff....would have changed alot of things in the 1st three games....I'm considering this first mini campaign  a learning exp....is there a place where I can look at the entire set of rules....I'm not an old time SFB'er


Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 02:24:48 pm »
The other thing I noticed was that your teammates seemed to be trying to recapture the FD7. I can only assume they were unsuccesful due to a script bug, and ended up destroying it instead.

Yep - can't recapture.  So the only option for the originally owning race is to destroy it or....see below


Realistically, if a ship gets capped we should probably consider whether it could make it off the board or not. If so then the full 200% should be awarded; if not, then 100% for a kill (since the capturing player would then SD it to prevent recapture).

A certain amount of subjectivity is necessary - but I don't think this would be the place for it (assuming your suggestion above is to have both sides agree arbitrarily on whether a captured ship could or could not make it out).  Besides - I think when you capture in SFB, the ship is considered dead in space...or is it just that it can't fire?

If the capturing force can't control the ship to fly it off, I would think they'd have to tow it off (pushing off would suffice I think) OR hold the field at the end of the game in order to get the full 200%.  Conversely, if the original owners own the field after the match, the captured ship should be considered 'reclaimed', albeit with an auto crippled status (Enemy Marines performed slash n burn).

Had things worked properly, I think the likely outcome would have been:

DG (me) - destroyed
KN (Cougar) - tacoed
CU (Bear) - tacoed

FD7K (Duck) - destroyed

Do you mean the continued 'hostile' stance of Duck's ship, and him tractoring the KN? (which I am assuming resulting in his snagging and death)
____________________________________________

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2005, 02:37:21 pm »
He-he... this is the second time I have pulled that move off using SA.

Bad news is... it still is a bugged program... good news:  I asked Tracey G to take a look at it to see if the problems can be fixed.  She said she would try. :woot:

I asked her specificly to fix the base problems & capture problem.  If you have anything to add, please let me know.

Back to the match.

I had no control over the FD7K after it was captured.  I almost SD'd MY SHIP when I 'thought' I had switched to the FD7K, set the SD and 'moved' back to my ship.... something made me look at it again... thankfully! ;)

The FD7K was a wreck, it would not have made it off the board so I have no problem with it being counted as a KILL and not a CAPTURE.

One of the bugs that we didn't notice until the end of our BTSF+ defense was that it had ZERO marines on board.
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Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2005, 02:41:30 pm »
Also.... we may want to look at this program: Fleet Pick 2 as a possible alternative.
Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

A tax code should exist to procure the funds necessary for the operation of government, not to manipulate human or business behavior.

A nocens dies in loricatus est melior quam a bonus dies procul opus.

A bad peace is even worse than war."  --  Tacitus

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it" -Claude Castonguay

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2005, 02:50:49 pm »
I've tried it - can't get it to work.  When I set up a scenario, then try to launch it in Mulitplayer, my game crashes.

Of course, I might be using it wrong, but old Vaughn didn't provide very uselful instructions with it.

If you can get it to work and can coach me into using it.....it was actually the first thing I tried, then fell back on SA

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2005, 02:54:38 pm »
Bad news is... it still is a bugged program... good news:  I asked Tracey G to take a look at it to see if the problems can be fixed.  She said she would try. :woot:

I asked her specificly to fix the base problems & capture problem.  If you have anything to add, please let me know.


Those are the only real problems as I see it.  Being able to properly load it out would be a big help, and a working capture would be excellent

The FD7K was a wreck, it would not have made it off the board so I have no problem with it being counted as a KILL and not a CAPTURE.


That'll work for last night - we just need to agree on an approach going forward under the current SA and adjust as necessary if we get a re-tweaked.  Please see my recomendations above as to that approach

Thanks

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 03:30:37 pm »
I don't think the capture had anything to do with mission not ending.  The base assault didn't end properly either.  Matter of fact, only the 2nd battle did end properly.

I honestly think anything that doesn't end in all of one side destroyed gives a bugged mission.  Since the 1st mission (all 3 Klink ships disengaged) and 3rd mission (My H-CU disengaged) did not have all enemies destroyed, it hung as the 'victory conditions' were not met.

The ship was 'AI Winged to me' (pic provided below) but I had no control over what it did.  I could not 'jump' into it.  Nor could I get it to go into 'green alert' or use any of the other AI functions (defend, capture, etc)

As I mentioned ealier, I could not control it nor SD it.  Also, it was crippled and unless some type of SFCIII warp was available, it would not have made it off the map.

Maybe, if Tracey is able to hack this thing, we could get her to auto warp out any ship captured after X amount of time.


Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

A tax code should exist to procure the funds necessary for the operation of government, not to manipulate human or business behavior.

A nocens dies in loricatus est melior quam a bonus dies procul opus.

A bad peace is even worse than war."  --  Tacitus

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it" -Claude Castonguay

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2005, 03:57:06 pm »
I don't think the capture had anything to do with mission not ending.  The base assault didn't end properly either.  Matter of fact, only the 2nd battle did end properly.


I knew the Script wouldn't end properly with a disengage - but you'd still get the message saying the .txt was copied to the Host's C Drive.  To me, that worked enough as a "Mission Complete" for me.  I though for Game 3 it ended in a crash though, ultimately resulting in no .txt posting at the end.



Maybe, if Tracey is able to hack this thing, we could get her to auto warp out any ship captured after X amount of time.


That would work....just have it proceed at best speed off the map (drop it to yellow alert if possible). 

Offline Dfly

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2005, 08:35:38 pm »
If this does not work, I suggest that if a ship is captured, it is automatically considered as a 100% for scoring and left alone by both sides, unless mission does not end and it can be killed at no cost.  This way if it is captured, neither team need worry about the ship and it is considered as destroyed for listing purposes.  If the team that captured it controls the space at the end, then to me that ship should be made available to that fleet for the next mini-campaign (carryover) as they are the ones that captured it and now have it in their storage.

Offline ShadowLord

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2005, 09:06:32 pm »
Hmm about ship captures --

Until the script gets fixed if it can be -- I would suggest the following rules..

A) Once a ship is captured -- the owning player all come to all stop and do nothing further... No tractors no movement no mines etc etc

B) This concept of capture if we can get it worked out adds a new dynamic to this entire situation and I am wondering if a rule to prevent SD of ships might be worth looking into..makes the idea of capture well worth looking into ???

Comments???

Duck

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2005, 09:35:33 pm »
I thought that you tried to SD after capture last night but couldn't.....

762_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2005, 10:10:19 pm »
This is getting too complicated. If Side A captures a ship from Side B, and:

Side A controls the board at the end - 200% for a capture

Side B controls the board at the end - 100% for a kill, since Side A would have SD'ed it before giving it back.

Simple.

Offline Dfly

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2005, 10:14:20 pm »
thought that is basically what I said t00l, so  I agree.

Offline KHH Jakle

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2005, 08:41:15 am »
This is getting too complicated. If Side A captures a ship from Side B, and:

Side A controls the board at the end - 200% for a capture

Side B controls the board at the end - 100% for a kill, since Side A would have SD'ed it before giving it back.

Simple.


Good enough

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2005, 01:54:52 pm »
thought that is basically what I said t00l, so I agree.

He just wanted credit for it. ;)
Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

A tax code should exist to procure the funds necessary for the operation of government, not to manipulate human or business behavior.

A nocens dies in loricatus est melior quam a bonus dies procul opus.

A bad peace is even worse than war."  --  Tacitus

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it" -Claude Castonguay

Offline Capt_Bearslayer_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2005, 01:55:37 pm »
Oh, and for the record, I agree with the 'new' (?) capture rule.
Political Correctness is really Political Censorship

A tax code should exist to procure the funds necessary for the operation of government, not to manipulate human or business behavior.

A nocens dies in loricatus est melior quam a bonus dies procul opus.

A bad peace is even worse than war."  --  Tacitus

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it" -Claude Castonguay

762_XC

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2005, 04:31:53 pm »
That's not what he said!  :P

Sheesh I feel like J'inn in here!

Offline Dfly

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Re: Question about last night's capture
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2005, 09:35:03 pm »
so, does that make you  Jinn's t00l ?   :-*