Topic: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source  (Read 8291 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« on: October 23, 2005, 09:37:07 pm »
Link to full article

Quote
Microsoft just happens to be one of our clients and Checkpoint is our standard firewall," Uemura said. "Checkpoint on Windows was unmanageable but after a few months of using OpenBSD we were told to put Checkpoint back."

Then PWC was hit with a virus affecting network traffic and the Checkpoint firewall was running at 100 percent CPU capacity which was effectively a denial of service.

"So we had to put an OpenBSD firewall in front of Checkpoint," he said. "We saved seven salaries worth over one year. It was so dramatic they gave me a big raise and I was promoted from system administrator to IT manager. And because of the savings we get more productivity out of old hardware."

Despite this Uemura is adamant the move wasn't made because he wanted to. "As much as I love OpenBSD, we had no choice," he said.


Take over by infiltration, exactly the way the microcomputer first entered the office landscape.  Is history going to repeat itself?
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline prometheus

  • Hot and Spicy
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3610
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2005, 12:07:27 pm »
I sincerely hope to so...   ;D


To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the Universe!

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2005, 01:21:37 am »
Feel good stories like that are great but I still think that games and the gaming industry in general that is going to push Linux into the mainstream.  Until we see games that have native compatibility with Linux off the CD/DVD Linux will still be a niche/server based OS.  For now the term "PC Software" on gaming boxes will continue to mean Microsoft Windows only.  Sadly the catch 22 continues.

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2005, 07:49:38 pm »
Enthusiasts took the first microcomputers to work and showed that they were useful.  They spread through the office and eventually people who initially had no use for them started taking them home.  They didn't buy the machines designed for the home but brought the machines they knew how to use from work.  That is when the games companies started supporting the PC.

Enthusiasts have taken Linux to work.  It is spreading through the workplace (slowly as did the microcomputer).  Eventually maybe the next generation who had no use for Linux will be taking it home because they know how to use them.  Then perhaps the games companies will support the Linux PC.

The circle continues to turn.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2005, 09:17:42 pm »
That was a different time, a time before the gaming industry became main stream.  Now gaming is a huge portion of the computer world.  The gaming industry drives the computer industry as much if not more than any other computer software industry.  So unless a lot of the office productivity (Music & Movies included) start making their software for Linux, it is going to be the gaming industry that is going to have to pull Linux out of the niche market.  Quite frankly I don't see that happening for a while yet, not with Linux holding such a small percentage of the OS market share.

BTW can you watch store bought DVD movies on a Linux PC legally yet??

Offline Mr_Tricorder

  • 3D modeler /animator
  • Hot and Spicy
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
  • Trekkie at Large
    • My myspace page
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2005, 08:43:20 am »
That was a different time, a time before the gaming industry became main stream.  Now gaming is a huge portion of the computer world.  The gaming industry drives the computer industry as much if not more than any other computer software industry.  So unless a lot of the office productivity (Music & Movies included) start making their software for Linux, it is going to be the gaming industry that is going to have to pull Linux out of the niche market.  Quite frankly I don't see that happening for a while yet, not with Linux holding such a small percentage of the OS market share.

BTW can you watch store bought DVD movies on a Linux PC legally yet??


I haven't had any problems with playing store bought DVD movies on Linux.

There's already a lot of Linux software for office productivity; audio and video editing and playback; CD and DVD ripping, creating, and burning (legally); 2D and 3D graphics programs; and many other powerful pieces of software that come pre-installed on many Linux distributions (distros).  The best part about it is that these programs are open source and free.

In my recent experience, it's a hell of a lot quicker and easier to set up a Linux computer where you have everything that you need installed and working properly than it is to do the same with a Windows computer.

When installing Windows XP from scratch (which you probably paid at least $90 for), you have to immediately install Service Pack 2 (assuming you don't have it included with your Windows CD, which most people don't), install an antivirus program, and then go through countless updates and restarts before you can really do anything else.  Even then, you shouldn't even be connected to the internet until you've installed Service Pack 2 and an antivirus program unless you like the idea of catching virii during the first few minutes of using your computer.  Then you have to install your office software (I sure hope you didn't have to pay full price for MS Office) and any other software yo want to use like Photoshop or something similar, 3ds max (for 3D modelers and animators like me) Nero or something similar, audio and video editing software, IM clients, games, and any other miscellaneous pieces of software you might need.  All of this will probably cost you hundreds, maybe even a few thousand dollars.

When installing Linux, you just go through the installation process (which will vary in difficulty from distro to distro, but most of them are just as easy, if not easier to install than Windows) and update ONCE (some distros let you do this at the end of the installation) and you're ready to go.  The distro you chose probably already has everything you need already installed and ready to use.  Open Office (MS Office alternative), GIMP (Photoshop alternative), Blender (a very good 3D graphics program), a complete set of multimedia tools, K3B (a CD and DVD burning program), IM clients that can use multiple protocols (anyone like to use MSN and AIM without having to run two separate clients?), and several other usefull programs are already there waiting for you to use and you didn't have to pay a dime for any of it (unless you decided to get a distro that isn't offered for free).

The hardest thing about installing Linux is choosing which distro to install.  You need to do a little research, but you shouldn't have any trouble finding one that suits your needs and caters to your level of Linux expertise or lack thereof.  Some popular distros that are very user-friendly are Ubuntu, Linspire, Mandriva, SuSe, and Xandros.  Also, there are several Live CD versions of Linux.  You can download a Live CD image, burn it to a CD, and restart your computer with the CD in the CD-ROM drive and your computer should boot up into Linux straight from the CD.  This is a great way to try out Linux without having to install anything.  Some very good Live CD's are Knoppix, Slax, MEPIS, and Ubuntu.  If you have absolutely no idea where to start, then go to this site http://distrowatch.com/.

Linux does lag behind Windows in games, but that's simply because the major gaming companies choose not to make Linux versions of their games.  There are, however, many people who develop open source games for Linux and some people are working on making Windows games run on Linux.  Cedega is a program based on Wine that will allow most games made for Windows (including the SFC games) to run on Linux (it's not free, though).  Also, some games have versions that run natively in Linux, like Doom III, Quake III, Neverwinter Nights, and several others.

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2005, 04:30:49 pm »

I haven't had any problems with playing store bought DVD movies on Linux.

Linux does lag behind Windows in games, but that's simply because the major gaming companies choose not to make Linux versions of their games.  There are, however, many people who develop open source games for Linux and some people are working on making Windows games run on Linux.  Cedega is a program based on Wine that will allow most games made for Windows (including the SFC games) to run on Linux (it's not free, though).  Also, some games have versions that run natively in Linux, like Doom III, Quake III, Neverwinter Nights, and several others.

Something must have changed in the last couple of years then with Linux, because back then you couldn't play store bought DVD's legally.  Don't get me wrong, I think that is a good thing.

I'm not going to get into the installation of Linux vs Windows, both have their pitfalls but that is not the focus of this thread.  The point of the matter is that Linux is not ready for prime time yet, there are still too many kinks to work out. Being more user friendly from install to finish at the top of the list, but I think that will happen in time.  Until then and until the software industry starts supporting Linux off the CD (which none of the games you listed above does), Linux will continue to remain in the niche market that they are in.

Just for the record (again) the goal that I would like to see in the operating system business is Apple Mac, Linux, and Windows each having 33% of the total market share.  That is when I think customers will benefit the most.

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2005, 05:53:59 pm »
Something must have changed in the last couple of years then with Linux, because back then you couldn't play store bought DVD's legally.  Don't get me wrong, I think that is a good thing.

Major efforts have been made on the install, ease of use and patching.  KDE and Gnome as windowing environments have been competing with each other (and Windows/Mac) and have both progressed by leaps and bounds.

The DVD problem is the DMCA which is only an American problem.  Basically what it amounts to is that you need to download a player that is possibly legal for you (as an American) to do but not legal to sell.  I think that there is at least one legal DVD player in the states for sale but I don't know the name off hand.

I'm not going to get into the installation of Linux vs Windows, both have their pitfalls but that is not the focus of this thread.  The point of the matter is that Linux is not ready for prime time yet, there are still too many kinks to work out. Being more user friendly from install to finish at the top of the list, but I think that will happen in time.  Until then and until the software industry starts supporting Linux off the CD (which none of the games you listed above does), Linux will continue to remain in the niche market that they are in.

Barring laptops most people will have no more difficulty with a Linux install than a windows.  The exceptions are people with really new hardware.   The real problem is with commercial programs,  there are very few and most of those are aimed at the enterprise level. 

One advantage over windows installs (up to Win2K at least) if your hard disk controller is not included in the installation you don't need to get a copy on floppy to install the OS.  Linux will happily look where ever you tell it to look for the correct driver.  I spent a day once getting Win2k to install on a machine where the installer would not handle the floppy for the driver install inspite of the fact that a previous install had used the floppy without issue.

Game companies could reach back into the past where there were games running off bootable floppies and make custom bootable games CDs that run the game on a Live Linux.

Just for the record (again) the goal that I would like to see in the operating system business is Apple Mac, Linux, and Windows each having 33% of the total market share.  That is when I think customers will benefit the most.

Me to.  I like market competition.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2005, 07:48:36 am »

Major efforts have been made on the install, ease of use and patching.  KDE and Gnome as windowing environments have been competing with each other (and Windows/Mac) and have both progressed by leaps and bounds.

That is true but then there are popular distros like Debian that is a killer to install.  Sure you can use Debian based Xandros which will make Linux easier to install but that will cost you some cash (about $90USD IIRC).  Linux as a whole is still not ready for prime time, as they still need a unified installer program or set of programs.  No what Linux really needs to do is bring all the distros together take the best parts of each distro and make one unified Linux distro.  Linux needs to stop competing with itself and start competing with Mac and Windows OS.  Until Linux comes together as one unified OS and can say Linux can do everything easier and better than Windows and run all the programs that Windows can run off the CD, Windows will continue to hold the market share.



The DVD problem is the DMCA which is only an American problem.  Basically what it amounts to is that you need to download a player that is possibly legal for you (as an American) to do but not legal to sell.  I think that there is at least one legal DVD player in the states for sale but I don't know the name off hand.

Well if you can remember the name of it I'd like to take a look at it.  I searched and found four free pseudo DVD players, them being:  MPlayer, Ogle, VideoLAN Client, and Xine.  I say pseudo because they all require a third party download to play CSS encrypted DVDs, ie store bought DVDs.  Also I think MPlayer and Ogle still require you to compile the source code to use.  Pending the outcome of the current legal battle here in the U.S, those third party may be illegal to download here in the U.S.

If Linux ever plans on taking even 10~15% of the OS market share (again at least here in the U.S) then it has to be able to play store bought DVDs legally and easily.  That means having those third party drivers required to play legal and included with the DVD player program.  Being able to install without having to compile the source code on your own is also a must.  Remember the ease of install we talked about above, the Linux world it seems could learn a lot from the Moxilla foundation.




Barring laptops most people will have no more difficulty with a Linux install than a windows.  The exceptions are people with really new hardware.   The real problem is with commercial programs,  there are very few and most of those are aimed at the enterprise level. 

As I've pointed out above, that is not necessary the case.  Some of it depends on what distro that people want to use.  As far as commercial programs I agree whole heartedly.  As I said before I think it is going to fall on the gaming industry to get the ball rolling and make that happen.




One advantage over windows installs (up to Win2K at least) if your hard disk controller is not included in the installation you don't need to get a copy on floppy to install the OS.  Linux will happily look where ever you tell it to look for the correct driver.  I spent a day once getting Win2k to install on a machine where the installer would not handle the floppy for the driver install in spite of the fact that a previous install had used the floppy without issue.

The hard disk controller driver issue affects WinXP as well.  The thing is I don't think that is a OS issue, I lay the blame for this on motherboard makers for not putting the drivers on the motherboard itself (Bios).  This is only a issue with some motherboards, in fact my motherboard has the hard disk drivers on the motherboard itself so I don't need to worry about those drivers at all. 



Game companies could reach back into the past where there were games running off bootable floppies and make custom bootable games CD's that run the game on a Live Linux.

That issue comes down to cost.  Companies in general and (not just gaming companies) don't want to pay the money to even code for Linux or Mac OS let alone put out a bootable floppie disk or CD.  Linux and Mac OS don't have the market share so companies won't even consider anything else other than Windows.  Hence the catch 22 term I used earlier.

Offline Mr_Tricorder

  • 3D modeler /animator
  • Hot and Spicy
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
  • Trekkie at Large
    • My myspace page
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2005, 12:45:05 pm »
That is true but then there are popular distros like Debian that is a killer to install.  Sure you can use Debian based Xandros which will make Linux easier to install but that will cost you some cash (about $90USD IIRC).  Linux as a whole is still not ready for prime time, as they still need a unified installer program or set of programs.  No what Linux really needs to do is bring all the distros together take the best parts of each distro and make one unified Linux distro.  Linux needs to stop competing with itself and start competing with Mac and Windows OS.  Until Linux comes together as one unified OS and can say Linux can do everything easier and better than Windows and run all the programs that Windows can run off the CD, Windows will continue to hold the market share.
Not all popular distros are difficult to install and there are many popular and easy-to-use distros are free.  I'm using SUSE Linux which is now free.  You can pay for it if you want to buy the CDs in a nice box with a manual and official support, but you can download the complete OS for free.  It's a popular distro and is very easy to use.  Ubuntu is also a very popular distro that can be used by novices.  It's completely free also.

The Linux community doesn't want a unified Linux distro.  The reason why there are so many distros is that each one is designed to cater to the specific wants and needs of it's followers.  What we do need is more unified Linux standards.  Several distros use RPM files for installing programs instead of having to compile the program from source, but there isn't a standard RPM format just yet.  You need to download one that matches your distro and version number.  Once Linux distros start using a more unified standard package format, then Linux will be closer to being ready for the masses.  Right now, the biggest problem in my opinion for Linux is that it's generally a lot more difficult to install programs.  Other than that, I consider it far superior to Windows in both performance and ease of use.

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2005, 07:48:49 pm »
That was a different time, a time before the gaming industry became main stream.  Now gaming is a huge portion of the computer world.  The gaming industry drives the computer industry as much if not more than any other computer software industry.  So unless a lot of the office productivity (Music & Movies included) start making their software for Linux, it is going to be the gaming industry that is going to have to pull Linux out of the niche market.  Quite frankly I don't see that happening for a while yet, not with Linux holding such a small percentage of the OS market share.

BTW can you watch store bought DVD movies on a Linux PC legally yet??


In many ways the thing that keeps M$ on top is their schools program.  Schools train people how to use computers, and the training is the biggest cost for a business.

Until open office gets into schools business is unlikely to move to it in a big way.
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2005, 09:16:38 pm »
The thing is that there are also distro's out there that are hard to install.  Some people may think that is as easy to solve as picking another distro.  The problem is when customers search on the web and find a distro that fits all their needs, downloads it and tries to install it on the hard drive.  That is when they find out that the distro is a killer to install then gives up and goes back to Windows.  This can happen and is the reason why Linux needs to be unified and easy to install.  If Linux does not want that then they have to accept the fact that they are not going to gain in market share.

As for Linux being used in schools, history does not back up this rational as Apple used to be all over schools and colleges in the U.S but schools has never really helped Mac gain in market share.

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2005, 03:46:04 am »
As for Linux being used in schools, history does not back up this rational as Apple used to be all over schools and colleges in the U.S but schools has never really helped Mac gain in market share.


Actually there is a reason why Microsoft Office is ported onto Mac :)

Seriously though the kids I teach HAVE to use Microsoft Office since I can't write help files for every damned product out there, or they have to learn how to use the product themselves (with the consequent poor grades).  This means most of them are comfortable installing and using Microsoft Office.

As for OS's very few people have ever installed one.  They buy computers for the applications, not the OS.  If you were buying Microsoft Office what type of OS would come to mind?
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2005, 07:38:31 am »
That is true but then there are popular distros like Debian that is a killer to install.  Sure you can use Debian based Xandros which will make Linux easier to install but that will cost you some cash (about $90USD IIRC).  Linux as a whole is still not ready for prime time, as they still need a unified installer program or set of programs.  No what Linux really needs to do is bring all the distros together take the best parts of each distro and make one unified Linux distro.  Linux needs to stop competing with itself and start competing with Mac and Windows OS.  Until Linux comes together as one unified OS and can say Linux can do everything easier and better than Windows and run all the programs that Windows can run off the CD, Windows will continue to hold the market share.


Would you limit any other product to just one version?  There are Linux versions that run on everything from a PDA to super computer clusters.  At least one Linksys wireless router is Linux based.  One size does not fit all.  How many versions of Windows Vista are planned?

Quote

    Windows Vista Starter
    Windows Vista Home Basic
    Windows Vista Home Premium
    Windows Vista Ultimate
    Windows Vista Pro Standard/SB
    Longhorn Enterprise Server (ADS)
    Longhorn Enterprise Server - IA64
    Longhorn Standard Server
    Longhorn Datacenter Server
    Windows Vista Pro Std/SB/Ent - VL Binding Service
    Windows Vista Pro Std/SB/Ent - VLGeneric
    Windows Vista Pro Std/SB/Ent - DMAK
    Windows Vista Starter Digital Boost - OEM
    Windows Vista Home Basic - OEM
    Windows Vista Home Premium - OEM
    Windows Vista Ultimate - OEM
    Windows Vista Pro Standard/SB - OEM
    Longhorn Enterprise Server - OEM
    Windows Vista Home Basic N
    Windows Vista Pro Standard N


Quite a lengthy list and that is for a product with only one company behind it.  The list is even longer when you consider that the versions are for only 2 different processors (x86 and Itanium) and only one of those versions are for the Itanium all the others are for x86.  Then again there are the Windows for PDAs as well and I believe MS has an "embedded" XP product?  Add the localized versions for each (Spanish, Chinese, Russian, French etc, etc).  A lenghty list indeed.  But choice is good.

I don't think that the competition in Linux is bad.  What is needed (and is occuring) is enough standardization that a program compiled for one architecture (x86) will work on all machines of that architecture with the appropriate hardware.  That is occuring due to the Linux Standards Base.

Quote
Mission Statement

To develop and promote a set of standards that will increase compatibility among Linux distributions and enable software applications to run on any compliant system. In addition, the LSB will help coordinate efforts to recruit software vendors to port and write products for Linux.


Like any other product you need to know what you are buying (or downloading).  Would you buy XP Home to run a webserver?  How about Enterprise Server - IA64 for playing games?  What would you say to someone who did those things?

Debian (which you cited) is an enthusiasts version.  As such its features suit its market.  It appears to have 3 goals.  As with any product the enthusiasts version is only for those with the requisite skills.

1/ Stability.  Rock solid stability.
2/ A very broad range of free software that is tested and stable
3/ A broad range of supported architectures.  (the current list Alpha,  ARM, HP PA-RISC, Intel x86, Intel, IA-64, Motorola 680x0, MIPS, MIPS (DEC), PowerPC, IBM S/390, SPARC)

Debian also acts as a basis for other distributions even commercial ones.  Those distributions mostly are known for stability and use friendliness.  Xandros and Ubuntu/Kubuntu for 2.

The glory of Linux is that each of those retail and free versions can look at the best features of the others and add them in.  Add to that that each version can be customized to a purpose and you have something Windows cannot match.  Did you know that there is a Welsh version of Linux?  No Welsh Windows however.  Any group which includes either the skills or the money to hire the skills can get a Linux that matches their needs and desires.  You can't get that with Windows unless you are a major government.

Linux is ready for prime time in particular markets.  It may not be ready for "Joe Public" but that does not mean that it is not ready for other uses.

Linux is one of the biggest for servers in general and webservers in particular.  Partly this is price.  Mostly it is stability and control.  Why is it that Windows servers have a GUI up at all time and if it crashes your system is down?  Why does a server need a GUI for everything?  Linux doesn't insist on it.

Of those super computers that publicly list their OS 2/3rds run Linux.  1 single machine runs Windows (it is subsidized by Microsoft).  Not exactly the "hobbiest" program that Microsoft tries to convince people that Linux is.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2005, 07:45:45 am »
Well if you can remember the name of it I'd like to take a look at it.  I searched and found four free pseudo DVD players, them being:  MPlayer, Ogle, VideoLAN Client, and Xine.  I say pseudo because they all require a third party download to play CSS encrypted DVDs, ie store bought DVDs.  Also I think MPlayer and Ogle still require you to compile the source code to use.  Pending the outcome of the current legal battle here in the U.S, those third party may be illegal to download here in the U.S.

Not being American I had no particular reason to remember it.  I also have not yet had a serious reason to play a DVD on Linux.  I only recently put a DVD Rom on a Linux machine so didn't even have the opportunity to try.  Perhaps over Christmas when I plan some Linux work.

I'll look for it if I get the chance and post if I find it.

If Linux ever plans on taking even 10~15% of the OS market share (again at least here in the U.S) then it has to be able to play store bought DVDs legally and easily.  That means having those third party drivers required to play legal and included with the DVD player program.  Being able to install without having to compile the source code on your own is also a must.  Remember the ease of install we talked about above, the Linux world it seems could learn a lot from the Moxilla foundation.

Say home OS market and I can agree on the DVD playing for the office desk not needed.  Right now the U.S. government is reviewing the DMCA to see if it is interfering in "fair use" of copywritten materials.  I think that being able to play your DVDs on Linux is a fair use.  Perhaps there will be some changes there.  Don't bet on it as there are powerful vested interests in strenghtening the DMCA.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2005, 08:09:42 am »
As I've pointed out above, that is not necessary the case.  Some of it depends on what distro that people want to use.  As far as commercial programs I agree whole heartedly.  As I said before I think it is going to fall on the gaming industry to get the ball rolling and make that happen.


That issue comes down to cost.  Companies in general and (not just gaming companies) don't want to pay the money to even code for Linux or Mac OS let alone put out a bootable floppie disk or CD.  Linux and Mac OS don't have the market share so companies won't even consider anything else other than Windows.  Hence the catch 22 term I used earlier.


I think that what is most likely to happen is the adoption by business and then migration home.  Just as it did with the PC itself.  Only then will there likely be major adoption by game companies.

Every time a major virus or worm takes down a company due to Outlook running attachments there is an impetus towards other systems.  Every time someone runs a trojan thinking it is a picture of a nude celebrity and trashes the company network there is an impetus towards other more secure systems.  Every time the BSA does an audit of an innocent company there is a drive towards other systems.

You might find this story interesting.  It is a sequel to an earlier one.  The City of Largo, Florida and its efforts to keep computer costs down.  They kept them WAY down.  One can wonder how many of their staff have since begun to use Linux at home.

The hard disk controller driver issue affects WinXP as well.  The thing is I don't think that is a OS issue, I lay the blame for this on motherboard makers for not putting the drivers on the motherboard itself (Bios).  This is only a issue with some motherboards, in fact my motherboard has the hard disk drivers on the motherboard itself so I don't need to worry about those drivers at all. 


I can't blame the motherboard maker as it is an add on card not shipped with the motherboard.  The issue is that even though Microsoft keeps telling the world that the floppy is dead they keep requiring it for certain purposes.  Why can't Microsoft let you use a CD R/W for drivers?
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2005, 08:32:58 am »
Actually there is a reason why Microsoft Office is ported onto Mac :)

There is a reason but not what you think.  There are in fact two reasons.

1/ To settle the Apple VS Microsoft lawsuit over cloning the MAC GUI.
2/ Anti-Trust.  They must keep competition alive at least to a degree.  If they had killed Apple then the pretense of not being a monopoly would be gone

Seriously though the kids I teach HAVE to use Microsoft Office since I can't write help files for every damned product out there, or they have to learn how to use the product themselves (with the consequent poor grades).  This means most of them are comfortable installing and using Microsoft Office.

Are you teaching how to use MS Office software?

If not then should you not just dictate the format in which you will take submissions not the program that creates it?  Just warn your students that if they don't use Word then you will not help them with software problems.  If a student is proficient in a different word processor that can create Word files that you can read why should you require them to buy a very expensive Office Suite to take your course?

As for OS's very few people have ever installed one.  They buy computers for the applications, not the OS.  If you were buying Microsoft Office what type of OS would come to mind?

More than you may think considering that one of Microsofts main ways to fix problems is to say "reformat and reinstall" to fix them.  One of my friends and his wife are separated and she recently called me for help with her computer.  For a variety of reasons I am willing to help but not go to her apartment.  The only way to get rid of her massive virus and spyware infection was reformat and reinstall, though not very computer literate she was able to do it easily.

One of the big complaints against Microsoft is the contracts that keep companies like Dell from selling computers without Windows.  Recently to quell those complaints Dell began to sell a OS free system, it cost more than the same system configured with Windows. 

If you want a Apache webserver which OS would you want?  Linux is what most want for that.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2005, 11:15:09 am »
Actually there is a reason why Microsoft Office is ported onto Mac :)

There is a reason but not what you think.  There are in fact two reasons.

1/ To settle the Apple VS Microsoft lawsuit over cloning the MAC GUI.
2/ Anti-Trust.  They must keep competition alive at least to a degree.  If they had killed Apple then the pretense of not being a monopoly would be gone

The silly Apple Vs Microsoft lawsuit continued for 4 years after Microsoft ported office onto the Mac.  In the UK I'd say that nearly every child is trained to use Microsoft Office, so even if they decide to get a Mac for graphics work they are still likely to put Microsoft Office onto it.

Seriously though the kids I teach HAVE to use Microsoft Office since I can't write help files for every damned product out there, or they have to learn how to use the product themselves (with the consequent poor grades).  This means most of them are comfortable installing and using Microsoft Office.

Are you teaching how to use MS Office software?

If not then should you not just dictate the format in which you will take submissions not the program that creates it?  Just warn your students that if they don't use Word then you will not help them with software problems.  If a student is proficient in a different word processor that can create Word files that you can read why should you require them to buy a very expensive Office Suite to take your course?

I teach ICT, so of course I'm expected to teach kids how to use software packages.  I am not going to teach each child individually, and most people have the fairly cheap (you can get office for £80) Microsoft Office, so it makes sence to teach them how to use that one.

As for OS's very few people have ever installed one.  They buy computers for the applications, not the OS.  If you were buying Microsoft Office what type of OS would come to mind?

More than you may think considering that one of Microsofts main ways to fix problems is to say "reformat and reinstall" to fix them.  One of my friends and his wife are separated and she recently called me for help with her computer.  For a variety of reasons I am willing to help but not go to her apartment.  The only way to get rid of her massive virus and spyware infection was reformat and reinstall, though not very computer literate she was able to do it easily.

Usually people are given a recovery disk.  All they do is put it in and it resets their OS.  Most people in the UK have not even seen an original OS disk, they just don't give them out anymore with a new computer.
One of the big complaints against Microsoft is the contracts that keep companies like Dell from selling computers without Windows.  Recently to quell those complaints Dell began to sell a OS free system, it cost more than the same system configured with Windows. 

That is silly, but Dells choice.  OEM licenses for XP home are very cheap anyway to system manufacturers.

If you want a Apache webserver which OS would you want?  Linux is what most want for that.

I do wonder however which OS is more likely to be installed :)
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2005, 05:50:54 pm »

Would you limit any other product to just one version?  There are Linux versions that run on everything from a PDA to super computer clusters.  At least one Linksys wireless router is Linux based.  One size does not fit all.  How many versions of Windows Vista are planned?


No I'm only talking about computer desktops and laptops here, the other devices are totally different animals altogether and I was not including them in this discussion.  As for the following list:

Quote

    Windows Vista Starter
    Windows Vista Home Basic
    Windows Vista Home Premium
    Windows Vista Ultimate
    Windows Vista Pro Standard/SB
    Longhorn Enterprise Server (ADS)
    Longhorn Enterprise Server - IA64
    Longhorn Standard Server
    Longhorn Datacenter Server
    Windows Vista Pro Std/SB/Ent - VL Binding Service
    Windows Vista Pro Std/SB/Ent - VLGeneric
    Windows Vista Pro Std/SB/Ent - DMAK
    Windows Vista Starter Digital Boost - OEM
    Windows Vista Home Basic - OEM
    Windows Vista Home Premium - OEM
    Windows Vista Ultimate - OEM
    Windows Vista Pro Standard/SB - OEM
    Longhorn Enterprise Server - OEM
    Windows Vista Home Basic N
    Windows Vista Pro Standard N


You are compairing apples and oranges as Linux is generally not bundled with AMD/Intel machines and that Windows is not a free operating system.  OEM's are just a result of the licencing structure and otherwise are perform exactly the same as the non-OEM counterparts.  Hence the Once you cut the OEM out of that picture that list drops almost in half.  Having said that, I do think that Windows is putting out too many versions of Vista, there is just no reason for what 14 different versions??!?  There is just no reason for all of that.  Then again that is not the final list and the article that went with the above list stated as much.



Quite a lengthy list and that is for a product with only one company behind it.  The list is even longer when you consider that the versions are for only 2 different processors (x86 and Itanium) and only one of those versions are for the Itanium all the others are for x86.  Then again there are the Windows for PDAs as well and I believe MS has an "embedded" XP product?  Add the localized versions for each (Spanish, Chinese, Russian, French etc, etc).  A lenghty list indeed.  But choice is good.

I don't think that the competition in Linux is bad.  What is needed (and is occuring) is enough standardization that a program compiled for one architecture (x86) will work on all machines of that architecture with the appropriate hardware.  That is occuring due to the Linux Standards Base.


Again I am not including the non desktop/laptop operating systems in this discussion.  When the Linux or Windows (or Mac) operating systems only difference is language but in every other respect the operating system is the same then I see no reason to include them either.  Since they are basically the same operating system.

Let me give you an example to help everyone see my point of view.  When I look at Firefox I see only one version (two if you count the all-in-one Mozilla) of Firefox.  Given Nemesis line of reasoning there are what, five or six versions of Firefox not counting language versions just because of hardware platforms??!?  I apply the same line of reasoning to OEM/non-OEM and language versions of operating systems.




Like any other product you need to know what you are buying (or downloading).  Would you buy XP Home to run a webserver?  How about Enterprise Server - IA64 for playing games?  What would you say to someone who did those things?

Debian (which you cited) is an enthusiasts version.  As such its features suit its market.  It appears to have 3 goals.  As with any product the enthusiasts version is only for those with the requisite skills.

1/ Stability.  Rock solid stability.
2/ A very broad range of free software that is tested and stable
3/ A broad range of supported architectures.  (the current list Alpha,  ARM, HP PA-RISC, Intel x86, Intel, IA-64, Motorola 680x0, MIPS, MIPS (DEC), PowerPC, IBM S/390, SPARC)

Debian also acts as a basis for other distributions even commercial ones.  Those distributions mostly are known for stability and use friendliness.  Xandros and Ubuntu/Kubuntu for 2.


No of course I would want someone to buy Windows Home for a server box and I can understand a couple of different versions for Windows.  The Home, Pro, and Server versions seemed to serve Windows users well Windows faults aside.  I could understand a similar Linux and Mac versions but when versions start getting into the double digits that IMHO is a little much.

I didn't see anything in Debian that I or anyone else wouldn't want in a operating system.  I mean who wouldn't want stability or a wide range of programs for their specific system?  If anything that just reinforces my thinking that Linux need to consolidate down to about 1~4 versions of Linux with a user friendly installer program.



The glory of Linux is that each of those retail and free versions can look at the best features of the others and add them in.  Add to that that each version can be customized to a purpose and you have something Windows cannot match.  Did you know that there is a Welsh version of Linux?  No Welsh Windows however.  Any group which includes either the skills or the money to hire the skills can get a Linux that matches their needs and desires.  You can't get that with Windows unless you are a major government.

Linux is ready for prime time in particular markets.  It may not be ready for "Joe Public" but that does not mean that it is not ready for other uses.

Linux is one of the biggest for servers in general and webservers in particular.  Partly this is price.  Mostly it is stability and control.  Why is it that Windows servers have a GUI up at all time and if it crashes your system is down?  Why does a server need a GUI for everything?  Linux doesn't insist on it.

Of those super computers that publicly list their OS 2/3rds run Linux.  1 single machine runs Windows (it is subsidized by Microsoft).  Not exactly the "hobbiest" program that Microsoft tries to convince people that Linux is.


Unless it is a language issue, I don't see what makes Welsh computer users so different from the rest of the world.  I sure that what ever those differences are could be included in a general Linux distro.  I agree that Linux has made great strides in the server market and I agree with you about the GUI interface in Windows servers.  But if it is not ready for "Joe (Jane) Public" then Linux is not ready to complete for general use market share.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2005, 09:16:59 pm by Javora »

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2005, 08:31:42 am »
Microsoft has both office 2003 and Windows XP available in Welsh :)

http://www.pugh.co.uk/Products/microsoft/microsoft-cymraeg.htm

Free of charge from the evil magacorp too :o
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Lepton

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1620
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2005, 01:03:26 pm »
I'm sorry but I'd rather see standardization of operating systems under a public and open process rather than a cabal of multibillion dollar companies.  Call me crazy but I think I know who will have the public's interests in mind.


System Specs:

Dell Dimension E521
AMD64x2 5000+
2G DDR2 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB GDDR3
250GB SATA HD

Offline Mr_Tricorder

  • 3D modeler /animator
  • Hot and Spicy
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
  • Trekkie at Large
    • My myspace page
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2005, 02:17:58 pm »
I'm sorry but I'd rather see standardization of operating systems under a public and open process rather than a cabal of multibillion dollar companies.  Call me crazy but I think I know who will have the public's interests in mind.
agreed.   :goodpost:

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2005, 02:40:25 pm »
I'm sorry but I'd rather see standardization of operating systems under a public and open process rather than a cabal of multibillion dollar companies.  Call me crazy but I think I know who will have the public's interests in mind.

Actually a corp that doesn't have the customers interests at heart will soon be bankrupt.  Yes corporations are trying to make money, aren't we all.  However if they do that by shafting their customer base they will soon be out of customers.

Open source has the OS community to answer to.  Business has the customer to answer to.  Both probably don't do a great job, however you can sue a business that puts out a shoddy product :)
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Lepton

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1620
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2005, 04:47:27 pm »
Not when they have a monopoly, right?  We're talking about Microsoft here.  Their products are flawed.  One could lay the entire monetary losses due to internet security issues at their doorstep if one were so inclined.  Be that as it may, there is no other acknowledged OS option in the market besides Mac and they are way too proprietary and costly for most people.  That leaves MS with a virtual monopoly.  That they have been sued to that effect should suggest to anyone how responsible they need to be to customer concerns.

I also believe that we will see MS getting clobbered in the console market where they do not have a monopoly when the PS3 is released, unless of course they put the screws to game developers which I do not put beyond Gates.


System Specs:

Dell Dimension E521
AMD64x2 5000+
2G DDR2 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB GDDR3
250GB SATA HD

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2005, 05:18:28 pm »
Microsoft don't have a monopoly, however people aren't willing to use the competition.  That speaks more about them, especially when the competition is free.

Internet security issues would only be Microsofts fault if they failed to fix holes, something they don't do.  In fact they are attacked far more, yet they identify and fix holes much faster than the open source people do.  Also I wouldn't call their products flawed, they do the job they are expected to do quite well, which is why we use them.  I'd much rather Office 2003 than the new open office.

It just isn't possible to build a physical bank that can't be robbed, so why would we expect computer systems to be any better?

Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2005, 06:25:08 pm »
Microsoft don't have a monopoly


The courts of a number of countries disagree with you.  The U.S.A., E.U. and South Korea to name 3 off the top of my head.

Actually Microsoft is currently in trouble over violating the U.S. settlement.

Link to full article

Quote
Under the program Microsoft had proposed, device makers that included a CD with Windows Media Player and other software would have had to agree not to include any other software, including rival media players.


Using that monopoly power illegally again.  Caught and shut down before it went to far again.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2005, 05:45:27 am »
Microsoft don't have a monopoly


The courts of a number of countries disagree with you.  The U.S.A., E.U. and South Korea to name 3 off the top of my head.


How can they have a monopoly when there are other products that people can use?

They decided it was a monopoly because people buy computers to run applications, and people write applications for Windows.  The fact that Microsoft writes applications for non windows products is ignored.  That people don't want to use alternatives is not Microsofts fault.

It is a fake definition of monopoly. 

Actually Microsoft is currently in trouble over violating the U.S. settlement.

Link to full article

Quote
Under the program Microsoft had proposed, device makers that included a CD with Windows Media Player and other software would have had to agree not to include any other software, including rival media players.


Using that monopoly power illegally again.  Caught and shut down before it went to far again.


I don't see anything wrong with that.  Why shouldn't they be able to say how their product is distributed?
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2005, 06:47:46 am »
When it come to Windows Media Player and monopoly issue I'm treading on unstable ground since I'm really not sure and don't have a lot of background information.  Given that, off the top of my head I am leaning toward Nemesis line of thinking here.  Since Windows Media Player comes included with every Windows CD.  The public won't go out and look for a Media Player since they already have one loaded on their system.  The argument has to rely on a line of thinking that the general public is lazy and won't look for a Media Player if they don't have to, IMHO that line of thinking has some merit.  Now if Microsoft willingly or is forced to strip Windows Media Player out of the OS and people go to the Microsoft web site and download the program anyway.  Then these other Media Player companies doesn't have a leg to stand on because the playing field would have been leveled.

That is the way I see it anyway, but if there is a flaw in my reasoning by all means point it out.

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2005, 10:53:42 am »
When it come to Windows Media Player and monopoly issue I'm treading on unstable ground since I'm really not sure and don't have a lot of background information.  Given that, off the top of my head I am leaning toward Nemesis line of thinking here.  Since Windows Media Player comes included with every Windows CD.  The public won't go out and look for a Media Player since they already have one loaded on their system.  The argument has to rely on a line of thinking that the general public is lazy and won't look for a Media Player if they don't have to, IMHO that line of thinking has some merit.  Now if Microsoft willingly or is forced to strip Windows Media Player out of the OS and people go to the Microsoft web site and download the program anyway.  Then these other Media Player companies doesn't have a leg to stand on because the playing field would have been leveled.

That is the way I see it anyway, but if there is a flaw in my reasoning by all means point it out.


Hehe, so if I sell steering wheels and whine enough then Ford have to remove all of their steering wheels and let the customer choose which one to buy?
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Dracho

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 18289
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2005, 11:07:36 am »
I'd like cheese on my Whopper. 

I'm sorry sir, but the cheese shops do not allow us to put cheese on your whopper for you, because we might not use the cheese most suitable for you.  Please take your whopper down he street and you can select a fine cheese from any vendor you choose.

Now.. about that soda...
The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2005, 09:12:43 pm »
FMMonty do you remember the Stac Electronics case?  It exemplifies the problem with Microsoft.

Stac created a diskcompression program for DOS/Windows called Stacker. 

Digital Research went to them and licenced it for DR DOS. 

IBM went to them and licensed it for PC DOS. 

Microsoft went to them and attempted to dictate terms that were destructive to Stac.  Stac said no.  Microsoft created a competitor that violated patents held by Stac.  Stac warned them of the violation and were blown off.  Stac took them to court for patent violation.  Microsoft was forced by the court to remove the program, they did and created a new version that did not violate the patents (no problem with that).  When they released the new version they also changed DOS so that Stacker could not be loaded with the old method.  The new method was undocumented and the EULA included a clause forbidding reverse engineering.  Stac reverse engineered it anyhow.  Microsoft sued and the EULA was held to be invalid in that area.  Stac won.  Stac does not exist any more.  Who really won?

By changing DOS to remove the ability of Stac to load their program Microsoft violated anti-trust laws.  Microsoft by changing DOS and putting that EULA clause in was eliminating the ability of Stac to sell their product to 90% of the market so that Microsoft could control that market.  Microsoft didn't win by making a better product.  They won by using the control of the dominant OS to block a competitor from being in the market.  They won by forcing that smaller competitor to expend their profits in court rather than on legitimate competition.

The ability to do that to a competitor makes Microsoft a monopoly under the lawDoing it makes it an abusive monopoly and guilty of illegal acts.

When Microsoft says you can't sell our products if you sell our competitors product that is a violation of the law.  When Microsoft says if you sell our competitors product you must still pay us (making the competitors cost artificially high and non competitive) they violate the law.  They have done both of these and been ordered by the courts to not do so because it is an illegal abuse of a monopoly position.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Lepton

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1620
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2005, 02:24:21 am »
There is no reasoning with Monty.  Might as well not bother.  He seems to be an apologist for Microsoft despite its well-earned negative public reputation and numerous monopoly lawsuits.

He makes any number of good points however they are semantic arguments at best.  When one is sued for being a monopoly and is forced to settle by national governments to that effect, you'd best believe in the court of law and public opinion that MS is a monopoly.


System Specs:

Dell Dimension E521
AMD64x2 5000+
2G DDR2 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB GDDR3
250GB SATA HD

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2005, 03:55:06 am »
FMMonty do you remember the Stac Electronics case?  It exemplifies the problem with Microsoft.

Stac created a diskcompression program for DOS/Windows called Stacker. 

Digital Research went to them and licenced it for DR DOS. 

IBM went to them and licensed it for PC DOS. 

Microsoft went to them and attempted to dictate terms that were destructive to Stac.  Stac said no.  Microsoft created a competitor that violated patents held by Stac.  Stac warned them of the violation and were blown off.  Stac took them to court for patent violation.  Microsoft was forced by the court to remove the program, they did and created a new version that did not violate the patents (no problem with that).  When they released the new version they also changed DOS so that Stacker could not be loaded with the old method.  The new method was undocumented and the EULA included a clause forbidding reverse engineering.  Stac reverse engineered it anyhow.  Microsoft sued and the EULA was held to be invalid in that area.  Stac won.  Stac does not exist any more.  Who really won?

This is an exact example of unacceptable practice, so you'd think.  However what Stac did is purchase a software patent from a British company called Ferranti and used that patent to sue Microsoft.  Patent 4,701,475.  This is common in software these days, since patent fishing works very well.

You also didn't mention that Stac lost the reverse engineering case and had to pay Microsoft 13.7 Million for illegally ripping off their doublespace preloading system, or that they had been given an advance copy of the new DOS 6, allowing them to prepare their product for the changes that were taking place.

Yes Microsoft did try to destroy Stac, however what actually destroyed them was cheap harddrives, and the fact that every operating system had bundled disc compression (MS were the last company to do so).

By changing DOS to remove the ability of Stac to load their program Microsoft violated anti-trust laws.  Microsoft by changing DOS and putting that EULA clause in was eliminating the ability of Stac to sell their product to 90% of the market so that Microsoft could control that market.  Microsoft didn't win by making a better product.  They won by using the control of the dominant OS to block a competitor from being in the market.  They won by forcing that smaller competitor to expend their profits in court rather than on legitimate competition.

Microsoft didn't change DOS and refuse to allow Stac to reverse engineer their product, they countersued stac for using thousands of lines of Microsoft code, and won.

The ability to do that to a competitor makes Microsoft a monopoly under the lawDoing it makes it an abusive monopoly and guilty of illegal acts.

When Microsoft says you can't sell our products if you sell our competitors product that is a violation of the law.  When Microsoft says if you sell our competitors product you must still pay us (making the competitors cost artificially high and non competitive) they violate the law.  They have done both of these and been ordered by the courts to not do so because it is an illegal abuse of a monopoly position.

People often sign exclusive deals to get better prices.  However I agree that it is harmful to your competition to say if you sell bobs you can't sell ours. Why should Microsoft want to encourage competition?

This Marxist idea that we should regulate businesses to stop them being successful is silly.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 04:38:50 am by FMMonty NCC 2nd'3'15'18'16'19 »
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2005, 04:13:13 am »
There is no reasoning with Monty.  Might as well not bother.  He seems to be an apologist for Microsoft despite its well-earned negative public reputation and numerous monopoly lawsuits.

I do apologise for not being an unquestioning Microsoft hater.  I will immediately report for brainwashing and stop holding unreasonable opinions...

He makes any number of good points however they are semantic arguments at best.  When one is sued for being a monopoly and is forced to settle by national governments to that effect, you'd best believe in the court of law and public opinion that MS is a monopoly.

I'd still like to know how Microsoft can be a monopoly when there are competing products, which people just don't want to use.
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline prometheus

  • Hot and Spicy
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 3610
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2005, 05:15:02 am »
I'd still like to know how Microsoft can be a monopoly when there are competing products, which people just don't want to use.

Abra Los Ojos...


To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the Universe!

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2005, 05:21:32 am »

Hehe, so if I sell steering wheels and whine enough then Ford have to remove all of their steering wheels and let the customer choose which one to buy?

Except that line of reasoning is flawed, Windows Media Player is not required to run Windows.  The last time I checked a steering wheel is still required to drive a car.  The idea of making car companies sell cars without steering wheels would be like forcing Microsoft to sell Windows without say DirectX or the Registry.

Don't get me wrong I see where you (and Dracho are going with this.  In fact change the words "steering wheel" with "car radio" and your argument gets real interesting really fast.  It's the slippery slope argument in a nut shell, and if Real Networks and Apple win this case it could open up to a whole new level of corporate insanity.  I could see Norton and other Firewall making companies sinking their teeth into Microsoft over Windows XP's built in firewall component.

At the same time I can understand Real Networks and Apple having an issue with Windows Media Player being automatically installed on about 90~94% (give or take a few points either way) of the worlds computers.  Sort of an unfair advantage by any standards, in fact not Ford nor any given sandwatch maker can boast that kind of marketshare (Monoply??!?).  Given that line of reasoning I can safely pull out the "compairing apples and oranges" analogy.

Let me ask a question if I may, does Apple OS X bundle its media player with their operating system?  If they do then Apple could quickly find themselves in the same boat.  However Apple could argue that they should be exempt since Apple OS X only works on Apple's Mac hardware.

The more I think about this issue the more confused I get.  One thing is for sure, these companies are lucky I'm not setting on the bench or in the jury box as I would drive them insane.  And I'd do it with a smile on my face...   ;D

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2005, 08:04:18 am »
Actually a GUI isn't needed to run a computer either, why not force that to be removed too.

What we are talking about is Microsofts product.  Why can't they decide what it comes with.  Selling something is a contract, and the contract needs to be agreed by both the buyer and the seller.  Government doesn't need to get involved, nor should they.

If anyone makes a decent product people will use it.  Other companies will then compete against that company with similar products.  That is the way things work.

If Microsoft decide to up their prices, or produce a product people don't like, or their product doesn't do what people want then people will use the alternatives.  There is no need at all for legislation, except to protect the alternatives from violence or theft.
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2005, 01:27:19 pm »
Actually a GUI isn't needed to run a computer either, why not force that to be removed too.


How many competing companies are putting out GUI's, not OS's but GUI's and only GUI's for people to download?  Last time I checked there wasn't all that many.  Besides that already went through the court system way back when Apple sued Microsoft over the Windows platform and we all know how that turned out.



What we are talking about is Microsofts product.  Why can't they decide what it comes with.  Selling something is a contract, and the contract needs to be agreed by both the buyer and the seller.  Government doesn't need to get involved, nor should they.


That is one point of view, another point of view would be that we are talking about fair competition in the market place.  Microsoft can't decide what comes with the operating system because they have been deemed a monoply by the Government and rightly so.  Microsoft won't agree to the buyers side of the contract, this is clearly evident by the problems that South Korea is facing with Microsoft.  Not only am I glad that the Government involved but that our Government is big enough to back Microsoft down.  I could only imagine how bad we the customers would get bent over if the Government wasn't involved.




If anyone makes a decent product people will use it.  Other companies will then compete against that company with similar products.  That is the way things work.

If Microsoft decide to up their prices, or produce a product people don't like, or their product doesn't do what people want then people will use the alternatives.  There is no need at all for legislation, except to protect the alternatives from violence or theft.


There is the rub, when it comes to operating systems, who else besides Microsoft makes a OS that people want to use.  Linux is a good five to ten years out from prime time home/office use and the Mac OS is not only a non-gaming platform but stuck on expensive proprietary hardware.  So when you stack those kinds of odds against the public the "way things work" as you put it in this case doesn't work so well.  The customers see that which is why they brought it to the court system with so called competitors (*cough* Sun Micro *cough*) help, hence the Governments involvement.  On a side note, sometimes I think that Apple is too scared to compete with Microsoft and put OS X on a store shelf for people to buy and install on PC's.  Quite frankly that point torques me off.

Offline Dracho

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 18289
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2005, 02:32:27 pm »
Actually, doesn't Bill Gates own a large block of Apple stock?

Yeah, here we go, back in 1997 Microsoft purchased $150 million in Apple stock..

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/cyberspace/july-dec97/apple_8-6.html

The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline FMMonty

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1273
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2005, 03:09:23 pm »
How many competing companies are putting out GUI's, not OS's but GUI's and only GUI's for people to download?  Last time I checked there wasn't all that many.  Besides that already went through the court system way back when Apple sued Microsoft over the Windows platform and we all know how that turned out.


If the silly legislation went through then people would make them.  Businesses fill holes, thats how they work.

That is one point of view, another point of view would be that we are talking about fair competition in the market place.  Microsoft can't decide what comes with the operating system because they have been deemed a monopoly by the Government and rightly so.  Microsoft won't agree to the buyers side of the contract, this is clearly evident by the problems that South Korea is facing with Microsoft.  Not only am I glad that the Government involved but that our Government is big enough to back Microsoft down.  I could only imagine how bad we the customers would get bent over if the Government wasn't involved.


Crap.  If Microshaft triple their prices then people will go with Linux.  There is competition, however the competition isn't as good.  Until either it becomes non geek friendly, or MS makes their product too expensive people won't touch it with a gimp pole. 

Could you name me one REAL monopoly that wasn't created by government?

There is the rub, when it comes to operating systems, who else besides Microsoft makes a OS that people want to use.  Linux is a good five to ten years out from prime time home/office use and the Mac OS is not only a non-gaming platform but stuck on expensive proprietary hardware.  So when you stack those kinds of odds against the public the "way things work" as you put it in this case doesn't work so well.  The customers see that which is why they brought it to the court system with so called competitors (*cough* Sun Micro *cough*) help, hence the Governments involvement.  On a side note, sometimes I think that Apple is too scared to compete with Microsoft and put OS X on a store shelf for people to buy and install on PC's.  Quite frankly that point torques me off.


It isn't that no one makes one, it is that there isn't a better one.  MS is a victim of their own success, and until they try to gouge the customer they will remain a success.

PS Apple have just changed to the same architecture as the PC, so the next Apple OS should be PC compatible.  That should make for some fun.

They have also added another mouse button (at last, heathens) :D
Comment is free, but facts are sacred.
 C. P. Scott

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12504
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2005, 05:47:12 pm »
Proceeds to don Moderators hat:

There is no reasoning with Monty.  Might as well not bother.  He seems to be an apologist for Microsoft despite its well-earned negative public reputation and numerous monopoly lawsuits.

He makes any number of good points however they are semantic arguments at best.  When one is sued for being a monopoly and is forced to settle by national governments to that effect, you'd best believe in the court of law and public opinion that MS is a monopoly.

You are making assumptions as to FMMontys motivations and then launching what I would construe as a personal attack based on those assumptions.  Personal attacks of course are against the forum rules.  Please restrict yourself to attacking the ideas and facts not the person presenting them.

If you wish to know FMMontys motivations I suggest that you ask him and then if you think that his motivations don't make sense discuss them.

Your cooperation in this matter is appreciated.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2005, 12:54:42 am »

If the silly legislation went through then people would make them.  Businesses fill holes, thats how they work.

Again Apple already challenged Microsoft in court over the GUI interface and lost.  Businesses is not going to fill this particular hole because there is nothing to fill.



Crap.  If Microshaft triple their prices then people will go with Linux.  There is competition, however the competition isn't as good.  Until either it becomes non geek friendly, or MS makes their product too expensive people won't touch it with a gimp pole. 

Could you name me one REAL monopoly that wasn't created by government?

No it is not crap just my opinion, I'm not telling you that your opinions are crap so a little respect in that regard would be appreciated.  This has been a very good discussion, lets not kill it now please.

As for people switching to Linux if Microsoft tripled their prices, I think you are making a much bigger assumption then I'd be willing to make.  My best guess is that the people would go back to the courts and scream monopoly again.  That doesn't mean that competition absolutely does not exist, it does but the competition can't do all the things that Windows can do (ie games).  Then again that is not exactly the competing operating systems fault either, I think games could play on other operating systems if they were made for them by the gaming companies.  That falls back to Microsofts market share and the competitions lack there of.

Microsoft wasn't created my Bill Gates??!?  :D  And yes IMHO Microsoft is a monopoly, I guess that is something we are going to have to agree not to agree on.



It isn't that no one makes one, it is that there isn't a better one.  MS is a victim of their own success, and until they try to gouge the customer they will remain a success.

PS Apple have just changed to the same architecture as the PC, so the next Apple OS should be PC compatible.  That should make for some fun.

They have also added another mouse button (at last, heathens) :D

Actually I think that Apple's Mac OS X is far superior to Windows.  If you change that first sentence to "... it is that there isn't a better one" for the PC platform then I would agree with you whole heartedly.  While Apple is changing to the Intel platform, Apple is still using special Rom chips on the motherboard so people can't use OS X on any PC.  The way it stands now, the new Intel Mac's will be able to run Windows but PC's still can't run OS X.  Personally I think that Apple is testing the waters to see if he wants to drop the Apple hardware and sell the OS off the shelf.  IMHO that would be the best thing for Apple and consumers, but yeah as it stands now it should make for a whole lot of fun.

Yeah but the Apple mouse still sucks, I just read the review for their newest one and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot USB cable.  :D

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2005, 12:59:31 am »
Actually, doesn't Bill Gates own a large block of Apple stock?

Yeah, here we go, back in 1997 Microsoft purchased $150 million in Apple stock..

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/cyberspace/july-dec97/apple_8-6.html


Sad, that could imply that Bill Gates and Microsoft has more confidence in Apple than Steve Jobs does.  The last time I heard, Steve Jobs sold all but one share of Apple stock.  Unless Steve Jobs bought Apple stock again since coming back as the CEO of Apple.

Offline Dracho

  • Global Moderator
  • Rear Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 18289
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2005, 10:55:56 am »
It could also imply that Microsoft has an unseen hand in guiding where Apple is going...
The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.  - Karl von Clausewitz

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2005, 07:43:49 pm »
It could also imply that Microsoft has an unseen hand in guiding where Apple is going...

*Shudders*

Offline Javora

  • America for Americans first.
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2969
  • Gender: Male
Re: 'Nightmare' drove desperate user to open source
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2005, 04:15:00 pm »
Hate to beat this dead horse but I found a good article that does a decent job of describing the current state of Linux.  I didn't want to start another thread since this one is still here.  Here is the link:

http://msn.com.com/2100-3513_22-5825524.html?part=msn&subj=ns_2543&tag=mymsn


Quote
Linux on the desktop--almost there again?
 
By Michael Singer, CNET News.com
Published on ZDNet News: August 9, 2005, 1:02 PM PT


SAN FRANCISCO--Despite their best attempts, Linux software companies say they are still having a hard time luring average consumers away from the Windows environment--but that may not necessarily be a bad thing.

Windows still dominates the PC world. About 90 percent of all desktops, laptops and even PDAs are powered by Microsoft, according to reports by Gartner and IDC. Even with all the hoopla last year about Linux progress, the buzz over breaking the Windows stronghold has died down considerably.

When it comes to the enterprise desktop, companies like Novell and Red Hat are making some progress, thanks to open-source projects such as Evolution, Firefox, KDE, GNOME, OpenOffice and Wine. But the companies still report adoption problems in the consumer space.

 

"We feel like it is a long road for us. It certainly has not a been an overnight shift," David Patrick, vice president and general manager of Novell's Linux, open-source and platforms services group, said during a press briefing at the LinuxWorld Conference and Expo, which is taking place here this week.

Novell seems to have made more progress than other companies, with its Suse Linux Professional edition for home users and Novell Linux Desktop for the corporate office.

Patrick said the company has the best success in fixed markets, as with the company's retail win with Ritz Camera and its new education contract with the state of Indiana, both announced Tuesday.

The company also released its OpenSuse project, which Patrick says will differ from Red Hat's Fedora project in that it will let consumers help identify key open-source projects before they are professionally developed.

Red Hat continues to dismiss any idea that it will offer a consumer version of its Enterprise Desktop Linux product, according to a company representative.

Expert Jeremy White, who wears a double hat as the go-to man at the Desktop Linux Consortium and as the founder and CEO of CodeWeavers, says the biggest roadblock to average-consumer adoption seems to be lack of hardware support, especially for gadgets like MP3 players.

"Last year, there was a lot of smoke but no fire when it came to Linux on the desktop," he said. "It is not the sexy story that it used to be. However, there are some very steady and irreversible trends. There are a lot of customers that tell us that they would adopt Linux in theory, but say, 'Gee, we would use Linux if only if it could run this one application.'"

The other barrier, according to White, seems to be the lack of software support by key manufacturers like Adobe Systems and Macromedia, which are strong supporters of Windows and Apple Computer's Mac OS X but rely more on third-party companies to help their applications run on Linux.

White also suggests that crossover products like AJAX, ThinkFree, VMware and Wine are actually creating a world where Windows and Linux coexist in harmony on the desktop. Such tools allow people to run Windows programs on non-Windows systems.

In some cases, Linux is working to the advantage of corporate buyers who, according to White, are not shy about having employees working on Linux-based operating systems when the Microsoft account managers pay a visit.

"They use it like a leveraging tool, kind of like threatening Microsoft to give them better discounts or lose out on their licensing accounts," White said, but added, "it's still Microsoft's game."

"In some ways," adds Brian Proffitt, editor of LinuxToday.com and co-author of "The Joy of Linux," "Linux on the desktop is almost irrelevant because of the shift towards Web-based applications.

"Linux in the enterprise is where you will see the most work being done these days because companies don't want all of those applications open at the bottom of a Windows tray. Ultimately, it comes down to what you want the Linux desktop to do."