Topic: Lawyers and stuff...

[T' Kang]

This is an excerpt we received

"Major (Name Withheld)

... In response to your inquiry concerning the usage of materials found on the internet in a publicly available domain:

1) Our opinion (supported*) is that there would be extremely limited, or no liability potential on the usage or modification of any material obtained; with the exclusion of specific rights afforded a copyright for specific purpose usage outside the individual game-title environment.

2) This specific copyright would be identified by both the copyright and license information that was registered. Pseudo-names are not used in copyrights unless held under a business entity such as a corporation. Any specifics would be publicly available and have the mailing addresses included.

3) It is our consensus that any modified gaming materials would be the property of the licensed developer or licensed publisher (“contractor”) under FAR 52.227-19 or DFARS 252.227-7013. Any “new” gaming material would have to have rights specifically secured and licensed prior to distribution for commercial application.

3.1) New gaming material would be proprietary if you expanded your current license arrangements with Viacom, and secured contract arrangements with the developer and the publisher.

3.2) “Freeware” would be allowed as new game material under the EULA if properly identified, but the ownership of any material is no longer proprietary, and could be requested by the “contractor” to be removed from public access without fiscal recourse.

Please inform us on how you would like our firm to proceed..."

And who said lawyers are not fun... 

[Starforce2]

Huh?

[AncientAngel]

Might help if you would post the orginal E-mail that got the responce because right now I have no clue to what and why etc.. or the general point they are trying to make.

[T' Kang]

What this was was a reply to consolidate the copyright and licensing research completed to prior to securing copyrights for a MMOG system that could have been applied to SFC3. What it comes down to was if you post it you either have a license to distribute something or are working under another license.

If you work under the EULA it is theirs.

[KBF-Crim]

Correct...anything developed for use in a licensed game falls under the ownership of the orginal intellectual property owner and (or) the developer....

Models...mods...scripts...fan fiction...everything and anything that is created to exist in the Star Trek universe(for example)....

None of that stuff can be copy written because it is considered to be a derivative product, based upon the original intellectual property...

IE....If another trek game is licensed from paramount....anything made from or based upon..paramounts intellectual property could be included in the game...with no legal requirement to compensate the modeler, writer, scripter or artist...

So while Taldren in fact "owned" the SFC code (because they wrote it)...that code in fact included other intellectual property that needed a license to be used....both from steve Cole and from Paramount...

So without license...the code is basiclly useless...

Unless the original owner permits it to become "open scource"....then it falls into the public domain...

That being said....

Both Steve and Paramount are aware of fan produced items for use in SFC...such as ship models...and SFB material....

While they are under no requirement to permit such...they are gracious enough to do so...so long as several basic rules are followed...

Such items are freely available to anyone who so wishes...

Such items are for the exclusive use of people who allready have the game...and for use in the game...

No item generates revenue...

And no item disrespects the original intellectual property owner...

While Steve himself might not be in a position of leverage with an entire legal dept....such is NOT the case for Paramount...

And I know for a fact that another older trek game had an entire community shut down over a derivative product they were actually trying to market and copywrite...

Thus the reason that we here at DV.net are pretty strict about what gets posted and that no one tries to "sell" meshes, mods, or anything else on these forums...

We are still in Steve and Paramounts good graces....and we want to stay that way...

Who knows what the future may bring....if paramount ever decides to produce a fan developed title....we would be a prime canidate...we have modelers...scripters...programers...and writers...all right here...

And THAT would be cool as hell...

[Kana]

Well Steve C might have a legal ground to stand on...and he does have a 'non-time' specific license agreement with Paramount on TOS era stuff...but come on they only have like 6 employees...and the do all their own packaging, in their 'warehouse'...so I don't see much problem from them unless you really started trying to sell something...it's Paramount you would really have to watch out for...

Kana

[Starforce2]

Correct...anything developed for use in a licensed game falls under the ownership of the orginal intellectual property owner and (or) the developer....

Models...mods...scripts...fan fiction...everything and anything that is created to exist in the Star Trek universe(for example)....

None of that stuff can be copy written because it is considered to be a derivative product, based upon the original intellectual property...

IE....If another trek game is licensed from paramount....anything made from or based upon..paramounts intellectual property could be included in the game...with no legal requirement to compensate the modeler, writer, scripter or artist...

So while Taldren in fact "owned" the SFC code (because they wrote it)...that code in fact included other intellectual property that needed a license to be used....both from steve Cole and from Paramount...

So without license...the code is basiclly useless...

Unless the original owner permits it to become "open scource"....then it falls into the public domain...

That being said....

Both Steve and Paramount are aware of fan produced items for use in SFC...such as ship models...and SFB material....

While they are under no requirement to permit such...they are gracious enough to do so...so long as several basic rules are followed...

Such items are freely available to anyone who so wishes...

Such items are for the exclusive use of people who allready have the game...and for use in the game...

No item generates revenue...

And no item disrespects the original intellectual property owner...

While Steve himself might not be in a position of leverage with an entire legal dept....such is NOT the case for Paramount...

And I know for a fact that another older trek game had an entire community shut down over a derivative product they were actually trying to market and copywrite...

Thus the reason that we here at DV.net are pretty strict about what gets posted and that no one tries to "sell" meshes, mods, or anything else on these forums...

We are still in Steve and Paramounts good graces....and we want to stay that way...

Who knows what the future may bring....if paramount ever decides to produce a fan developed title....we would be a prime canidate...we have modelers...scripters...programers...and writers...all right here...

And THAT would be cool as hell...

What old community got shut down?

[KBF-Crim]

Well Steve C might have a legal ground to stand on...and he does have a 'non-time' specific license agreement with Paramount on TOS era stuff...but come on they only have like 6 employees...and the do all their own packaging, in their 'warehouse'...so I don't see much problem from them unless you really started trying to sell something...it's Paramount you would really have to watch out for...

Kana

Actually...we are Steve's first line of defense...

Fair use is fine...abuse is not...

[KBF-Crim]

Uh...damn star...you would ask...."Birth of the Federation" I think....

I can sniff around and find out, it came up is some of the...er....discussions..

[T' Kang]

Correct...anything developed for use in a licensed game falls under the ownership of the original intellectual property owner and (or) the developer....

Models...mods...scripts...fan fiction...everything and anything that is created to exist in the Star Trek universe(for example)....

None of that stuff can be copy written because it is considered to be a derivative product, based upon the original intellectual property...

IE....If another trek game is licensed from paramount....anything made from or based upon..paramounts intellectual property could be included in the game...with no legal requirement to compensate the modeler, writer, scripter or artist...

So while Taldren in fact "owned" the SFC code (because they wrote it)...that code in fact included other intellectual property that needed a license to be used....both from Steve Cole and from Paramount...

So without license...the code is basically useless...

Unless the original owner permits it to become "open source"....then it falls into the public domain...

That being said....

Both Steve and Paramount are aware of fan produced items for use in SFC...such as ship models...and SFB material....

While they are under no requirement to permit such...they are gracious enough to do so...so long as several basic rules are followed...

Such items are freely available to anyone who so wishes...

Such items are for the exclusive use of people who allready have the game...and for use in the game...

No item generates revenue...

And no item disrespects the original intellectual property owner...

While Steve himself might not be in a position of leverage with an entire legal dept....such is NOT the case for Paramount...

And I know for a fact that another older trek game had an entire community shut down over a derivative product they were actually trying to market and copywrite...

Thus the reason that we here at DV.net are pretty strict about what gets posted and that no one tries to "sell" meshes, mods, or anything else on these forums...

We are still in Steve and Paramounts good graces....and we want to stay that way...

Who knows what the future may bring....if paramount ever decides to produce a fan developed title....we would be a prime candidate...we have modelers...scripters...programmers...and writers...all right here...

And THAT would be cool as hell...

Crim you are "on the money." 

We knew there would be difficulties-impossibilities with a new ST game, so we went with the "Grandfathered license and reissue" concept. Therefore our project started as, "What would it take to reissue SFC3, and to make it a break-even proposition to the bean counters." The bottom line is a game will eventually die without money from somewhere. Humm Lucas Arts had over 20k subscription renewals last quarter. How much does Activision receive from their ST Titles?

We forked over the assignment (and a few significant checks) to a corporate legal firm, and they were off.

AncientAngel the sanitized (we have other NCA's involved) post is from the final cover letter received. Remember, that in the world all documents are Faxed with a hard-copy to follow. Faxes can be used as a temporary document under the mail fraud statutes.

So in summary what we were told by the attorneys, and you generally repeated above Crim is:

If you build a mesh, mod, script, etc. It is yours.

Once this is converted into a usable part of SFC it becomes the property of the legal contractor, or developer. (No longer yours)

For a model as example: My mesh is *.3ds until it becomes posted as a *.mod. From this point it is considered "Freeware" or the intellectual property of the developer-contractor.
If people understand these facts from the beginning, it may save a few of the flame wars I see posted around.

Time for me to get back to tilting at windmills... 

[T' Kang]

This is a summary from a local "free" newspaper this morning. I will see if I can locate a linkable article. This is Federal Dist Court in Orlando.

It appears that "new" Adobe-Macromedia registration located a 17yo kid using a "crack" to register a student copy of Discreet Max6 (now AutoDesk property). It appears that the kid is in detention with a $250k bail and the parents are being charged in connection to this for providing the computer and ISP.

[OlBuzzard]

I cant help but to wonder how much of that goes on.  It costs the industry millions annually.

[T' Kang]

I cant help but to wonder how much of that goes on.  It costs the industry millions annually.

How much of the "Hacker" stuff ripping people-business off (using cracks or re-loading demo-trial software)?
or; how easy it is becoming to track down these abuses?
or; how the parent's cannot post bond for the kid because their house is attached by civil suit?

I am a very small fish in a very big pond, what I get from some bigger fish is that the FedGov is now under pressure to "severly investigate and prosecute" such things. This is all that I have heard about locally. We are still playing hurricane recovery down here.

*Trivia: the average bondsman around here charges 10% of the amount as a service fee. It does not pencil out. Cost of Max6=$3k Cost of Bond=$25k Cost of Jail=Priceless...

**Add to the above was PhotoShop v7=$300

[Mr_Tricorder]

Actually, it look's like Discreet/Autodesk turns a blind eye to individual users pirating 3ds max.  I've seen how people do it, and it's incredibly easy to do.

It also seems like they would rather focus on companies and organizations to make sure they're "playing by the rules" as far as their software is concerned, and that the individual users who use their software illegally are likely to work for either a company that already uses their products or a company that doesn't yet and then encourage them to.  Either way it helps them out in the end.

Don't misunderstand me.  I understand and agree that software piracy is legally and morally wrong.  It just seems to me that the owners of 3ds max don't seem to be making much of an effort to prevent individuals from using it.

[OlBuzzard]

I cant help but to wonder how much of that goes on.  It costs the industry millions annually.

How much of the "Hacker" stuff ripping people-business off (using cracks or re-loading demo-trial software)?
or; how easy it is becoming to track down these abuses?
or; how the parent's cannot post bond for the kid because their house is attached by civil suit?

I am a very small fish in a very big pond, what I get from some bigger fish is that the FedGov is now under pressure to "severly investigate and prosecute" such things. This is all that I have heard about locally. We are still playing hurricane recovery down here.

*Trivia: the average bondsman around here charges 10% of the amount as a service fee. It does not pencil out. Cost of Max6=$3k Cost of Bond=$25k Cost of Jail=Priceless...

Actually ..  was refering to how much stuff is ripped off...  including pirated soft ware.

[Starforce2]

Actually, it look's like Discreet/Autodesk turns a blind eye to individual users pirating 3ds max.  I've seen how people do it, and it's incredibly easy to do.

It also seems like they would rather focus on companies and organizations to make sure they're "playing by the rules" as far as their software is concerned, and that the individual users who use their software illegally are likely to work for either a company that already uses their products or a company that doesn't yet and then encourage them to.  Either way it helps them out in the end.

Don't misunderstand me.  I understand and agree that software piracy is legally and morally wrong.  It just seems to me that the owners of 3ds max don't seem to be making much of an effort to prevent individuals from using it.

Perhaps  because use of their programs betters gamming communities and results in more games being sold,thus more made,  thus  more  companies buying their software...interesting food chain really.

[T' Kang]

Actually, it look's like Discreet/Autodesk turns a blind eye to individual users pirating 3ds max.  I've seen how people do it, and it's incredibly easy to do.

Now this is considered rumor... A little but of info seems to be dangerous and I do not know very much. I am far from a computer expert. Being a "customer" with AutoDesk and directly involved with the govt, and a couple companies using their products I called them casually. What they said is that there were various links to pirated software they have been tracking down for a while, ant the possibility of law enforcement "stings."

The registration links were through Macromedia which was picked up by Adobe. Currently, the same registration information being pulled for Photoshop, Acrobat, etc. is transmitted and received. Opens the program and lodges this "CD Key" in the program in a similar way to Digimark ID's. It is triggered when the program opens and with the help key. They also told me that repeat registration(s) on the same CD-Key triggers them to take action.

But... It is not my problem, my concern was the parent's liability and how a unsupervised teenager can wipe out your life because "they know eveything..."

[Starforce2]

r u saying that every time  the program  opens or is  installed  it transmits something over the net? You know the big brother poeple are  going to tkae issue to  any program  transmitting information unknown to the user (assuming that is what you meant) lol. This should be interesting.

[OlBuzzard]

Actually, it look's like Discreet/Autodesk turns a blind eye to individual users pirating 3ds max.  I've seen how people do it, and it's incredibly easy to do.

Now this is considered rumor... A little but of info seems to be dangerous and I do not know very much. I am far from a computer expert. Being a "customer" with AutoDesk and directly involved with the govt, and a couple companies using their products I called them casually. What they said is that there were various links to pirated software they have been tracking down for a while, ant the possibility of law enforcement "stings."

The registration links were through Macromedia which was picked up by Adobe. Currently, the same registration information being pulled for Photoshop, Acrobat, etc. is transmitted and received. Opens the program and lodges this "CD Key" in the program in a similar way to Digimark ID's. It is triggered when the program opens and with the help key. They also told me that repeat registration(s) on the same CD-Key triggers them to take action.

But... It is not my problem, my concern was the parent's liability and how a unsupervised teenager can wipe out your life because "they know eveything..."

point well taken bud !

[KBF-Crim]

It would seem prudent the keep that questionable install on a PC not connected to the net...if one where to do such a thing

[KBF-Crim]

If you build a mesh, mod, script, etc. It is yours.

Once this is converted into a usable part of SFC it becomes the property of the legal contractor, or developer. (No longer yours)

For a model as example: My mesh is *.3ds until it becomes posted as a *.mod. From this point it is considered "Freeware" or the intellectual property of the developer-contractor.
If people understand these facts from the beginning, it may save a few of the flame wars I see posted around.

Time for me to get back to tilting at windmills... 

Actually ...it doesnt matter what format the mesh is in...it's clearly based on parmounts property...

A connie is a connie...a D7 is a D7...

That being said...Paramount will generally look the other way until such time as someone tries to generate any kind of revenue of such projects...

And they DO appreciate fan art...within reason...

I can paint a picture of a connie...and sell it at a flea market...

I cannot run a thousand prints off it...and sell them ..and still be within the common terms of "fair use"...

[T' Kang]

On the money again Crim.  My assumption was made on a "new" set of meshes, as opposed to a ship that was previously used in production. New pointy ship vs a D7, or Connie, etc.

Not my direct interest or concern, but I wonder what the "laws" think of the Bab5 or BSG stuff modded for other games... Have you heard of any "conflicts?"

[KBF-Crim]

Not my direct interest or concern, but I wonder what the "laws" think of the Bab5 or BSG stuff modded for other games... Have you heard of any "conflicts?"

I havent heard a thing...B5 is a dead series...BSG would probably simply love the exposure at this point...

That attitude might change should someone approach them a serious offer to license a game based on their Intellectual property...

Even then...BSG as based on someone else's property...they just bought rights IIRC...

I know there is a B5 based table top game simular to SFB though....that company would probably be the best one to contact if someone wanted to do a game...

I also know that Cybercada was working on a B5 game....not sure he is wroking with anyone else or not...

Some companies view such things as free advertising so long as the Mods are respectful etc.....others...like paramount...religiously protect their intellectual property....

[T' Kang]

r u saying that every time  the program  opens or is  installed  it transmits something over the net? You know the big brother poeple are  going to tkae issue to  any program  transmitting information unknown to the user (assuming that is what you meant) lol. This should be interesting.

If you have any real questions in this area I suggest researching the EULA's and parameters for internet usage under the post 9/11 guidelines. I only know a little.  If doing legal research, make sure that the "XYZ" contract is read with the legal terms-words understood (Black's and/or WestLaw). How does the law read, now, such as FAR 52.227-19 or DFARS 252.227-7013?  What do judges say in their dicta? All of this "stuff" is public record or available.

[intermech]

Once this is converted into a usable part of SFC it becomes the property of the legal contractor, or developer. (No longer yours)

For a model as example: My mesh is *.3ds until it becomes posted as a *.mod. From this point it is considered "Freeware" or the intellectual property of the developer-contractor.
If people understand these facts from the beginning, it may save a few of the flame wars I see posted around.

Huh, well that sure doesn't encourage people to make new, non-Trek designs into mods, are you saying that both the *.3ds and the *.mod are considered freeware, or just the *.mod? If both, I am starting to think of all those kind modellers from outside the community who allowed modders to convert their hi-res models into useable mods. Have they unknowingly relinquished the rights to their own artwork? Also, I have developed my own set of original spaceship designs, if I make the mistake of converting the meshes to mods, does Paramont now have rights to the source files on my own computer?

The original post on this topic, is also a scary thing making it seem as though there are no real legal reprocussions for one who uses a posted model (be it *.mod or *.sod) in their own mod and neglects to credit the modellers. This could be far reaching, cross-game conversions, kitbashes, etc. That first post makes it seem that the only penalty for such indiscrecions would be scorn from the community, which is easy enough to avoid by posting on one's own domain. If the overall mods are good enough, they will be used.

Food for thought, and I would like some clarification on the above quote just for peice of mind.

Interstellar Machine

[T' Kang]

Paraphrasing Dr. McCoy, I am an Engineer, not a Lawyer…

My KISS understanding is…

Simply; No copyright=No rights. Copyright the art work. If you have something copyrighted, you know what you can and cannot do. Your lawyer should have told you at that point. Ours did. Using (or taking) previously copyrighted material without license is not a very good idea in my opinion. Taking another game's models, let alone another copyrighted show's ships (ie: property) and using it in another game might be a big problem. I do not know…

If you are doing a “fan based” ST model you are working under pre-existing license, or you have your own. If you have a license agreement with Viacom Products Group, you know what it entails. Otherwise you are doing something under another agreement, or simply a “Pirate” getting away with something until they are caught. I doubt they will send you a bill though for “fan based” public-domain issues…

If I take my copyrighted code, mesh, or artwork and use it for someone else’s “game.” It falls under their license, and it is their property, unless I have an exclusionary license and contracts with the principals involved.

In the case of Starfleet Command 3; I understand that all rights to Star Trek is Viacom property; the game code and the tools to convert are Taldren’s, and everything licensed for SFC3 is owned by Activision. You do it, you post it, it is theirs to use or not (close site as example) as they see fit. It is their property and you use it. Arguing about “whose model is it” or “permissions” is a moot point. Arguing about “permissions” is like arguing on what happens with your car after you give it away to charity. Again, No copyright=No rights. Simple. I would suggest always adding the credits of the “mesh modeler” in any case. It shows due credit and liability for the job they did.

[Tus-XC]

i would like to add that even if the modeler has no rights when its released to sfc, i would suggest you all be respectful of there wishes, it would quickly result in nothing being released if you didn't

[KBF-Crim]

Ok..lets not all go off half cocked...

Huh, well that sure doesn't encourage people to make new, non-Trek designs into mods, are you saying that both the *.3ds and the *.mod are considered freeware, or just the *.mod?

In the case of a NON TREK ship...or totally original work....only the .mod would be considered to be under EULA...

original art is considered to be copy written by default...

If both, I am starting to think of all those kind modellers from outside the community who allowed modders to convert their hi-res models into useable mods.

As above....there is no worry....For example...Paramount could only claim use of ships that where clearly based upon Paramount Intellectual property...

 

Have they unknowingly relinquished the rights to their own artwork?

NO..they have not...

Also, I have developed my own set of original spaceship designs, if I make the mistake of converting the meshes to mods, does Paramont now have rights to the source files on my own computer?

NO..they do NOT....since these ships are of your own creation and do not exist in the star trek universe...

The original post on this topic, is also a scary thing making it seem as though there are no real legal reprocussions for one who uses a posted model (be it *.mod or *.sod) in their own mod and neglects to credit the modellers.

A posted model placed in the public domain and not subject to copywrite (meaning entirely your own creation)  has no legal protections...it's only prtected if it deos not exist in ANY OTHER TYPE OF intellectual property...if YOU make it up from design...and it only exists in your universe (non trek)...then YOU own the intellectual property...

This could be far reaching, cross-game conversions, kitbashes, etc.

Lets not go all chicken little eh?

Just becasue you didnt know this..doesnt mean other are not aware....this suject has come up several times over the years...and I'm usually involved....that's how I know so much about it...

That first post makes it seem that the only penalty for such indiscrecions would be scorn from the community, which is easy enough to avoid by posting on one's own domain.

AGAIN..it depends on WHAT the ship is...wether it's your own creation...and wether you allow it to be converted...

but in basic terms...if you model a connie....it's NOT your property...it's paramounts...becuase it's based upon Paramount inelectual property...and sicne it cannot be copywritten...anyone who wishes may LEGALLY do what ever they want with it...

that doesnt make it right...and that doesnt mean that the community would stand by and accept it...

But that also means that a kitbash of your connie is beyond legal recourse...

If the overall mods are good enough, they will be used.

Probably so...then again ..it all depends on wether the ship is your own creation...or wether the ship can or would exist in someone elses creation....

Food for thought, and I would like some clarification on the above quote just for peice of mind.

Interstellar Machine

I have given all that I can think off with the questions you have offered...

But let me add this...

Ripping off someone is both unecessary (because many modelers have allready given permission for converstions or kitbashes) and in extremely bad taste...

The rules for posting are quite simple...seek permission...credit work...freely distribute...

There is no law that allows anyone to post whatever they like on this website...

That being said...kit bashing is usually how people get their start in modeling....and most times..they seek the approval of the original modeler...becuase they chose their work in the first place...

So...

If someone kitbashes one of your ships....or retextures one...and it isnt something sacred to you....show some class and give your blessing...give some pointers....and give some direction to a new modeler...

It doesnt necessarily mean they are trying to "rip you off"...it may be they look up to your work...and want your approval...

If ANYONE has an issue such as this....contact an admin....DO NOT start a huge flame war...it will only end up will all parties getting the boot...

[KBF-Crim]

I just wanted to add...Paramount is an 800 lb gorilla...one should never call for the help of an 800 lb gorilla....

They have a tendency to just kill everyone in the room...

800 lb gorillas are best left sleeping and respected as the dangerous beasts they are...

[T' Kang]

In the case of a NON TREK ship...or totally original work....only the .mod would be considered to be under EULA...

original art is considered to be copy written by default...

Copyrights on original artwork are not a default situation but a registration procedure. This is a good link to learn more.

http://www.copyright.gov/register/visual.html

Have they unknowingly relinquished the rights to their own artwork?
NO..they have not...

The individual who has the Copyright, gave you permission to use it. Copyright information should accompany the model.

This popped up on the search engine and it was interesting.

http://www.illegal-art.org/print/index.html

[Magnum357]

I have a question about all this legal stuff.  Say I wanted to make a "Freeware" Star Trek game for the Dyanverse Community.  It would cost people nothing, simply download the thing from Dynaverse.net (or wherever) and play the game.  First, would I still need permission from Paramont in any way to be able to do this?  I remember someone posting a download link for a Star Trek game he made with Darkbasic.  Did he have to get permission from Paramont in anyway?  I ask because I'm no lawyer.

Now assuming you had Paramonts blessing, would it be wise to still get a Copyright for this Freeware game, or would it be already under the protection of the ELUA?

[intermech]

Ok..lets not all go off half cocked...

Huh, well that sure doesn't encourage people to make new, non-Trek designs into mods, are you saying that both the *.3ds and the *.mod are considered freeware, or just the *.mod?

In the case of a NON TREK ship...or totally original work....only the .mod would be considered to be under EULA...

original art is considered to be copy written by default...

If both, I am starting to think of all those kind modellers from outside the community who allowed modders to convert their hi-res models into useable mods.

As above....there is no worry....For example...Paramount could only claim use of ships that where clearly based upon Paramount Intellectual property...

 

Have they unknowingly relinquished the rights to their own artwork?

NO..they have not...

Also, I have developed my own set of original spaceship designs, if I make the mistake of converting the meshes to mods, does Paramont now have rights to the source files on my own computer?

NO..they do NOT....since these ships are of your own creation and do not exist in the star trek universe...

The original post on this topic, is also a scary thing making it seem as though there are no real legal reprocussions for one who uses a posted model (be it *.mod or *.sod) in their own mod and neglects to credit the modellers.

A posted model placed in the public domain and not subject to copywrite (meaning entirely your own creation)  has no legal protections...it's only prtected if it deos not exist in ANY OTHER TYPE OF intellectual property...if YOU make it up from design...and it only exists in your universe (non trek)...then YOU own the intellectual property...

This could be far reaching, cross-game conversions, kitbashes, etc.

Lets not go all chicken little eh?

Just becasue you didnt know this..doesnt mean other are not aware....this suject has come up several times over the years...and I'm usually involved....that's how I know so much about it...

That first post makes it seem that the only penalty for such indiscrecions would be scorn from the community, which is easy enough to avoid by posting on one's own domain.

AGAIN..it depends on WHAT the ship is...wether it's your own creation...and wether you allow it to be converted...

but in basic terms...if you model a connie....it's NOT your property...it's paramounts...becuase it's based upon Paramount inelectual property...and sicne it cannot be copywritten...anyone who wishes may LEGALLY do what ever they want with it...

that doesnt make it right...and that doesnt mean that the community would stand by and accept it...

But that also means that a kitbash of your connie is beyond legal recourse...

If the overall mods are good enough, they will be used.

Probably so...then again ..it all depends on wether the ship is your own creation...or wether the ship can or would exist in someone elses creation....

Food for thought, and I would like some clarification on the above quote just for peice of mind.

Interstellar Machine

I have given all that I can think off with the questions you have offered...

But let me add this...

Ripping off someone is both unecessary (because many modelers have allready given permission for converstions or kitbashes) and in extremely bad taste...

The rules for posting are quite simple...seek permission...credit work...freely distribute...

There is no law that allows anyone to post whatever they like on this website...

That being said...kit bashing is usually how people get their start in modeling....and most times..they seek the approval of the original modeler...becuase they chose their work in the first place...

So...

If someone kitbashes one of your ships....or retextures one...and it isnt something sacred to you....show some class and give your blessing...give some pointers....and give some direction to a new modeler...

It doesnt necessarily mean they are trying to "rip you off"...it may be they look up to your work...and want your approval...

If ANYONE has an issue such as this....contact an admin....DO NOT start a huge flame war...it will only end up will all parties getting the boot...

Thanks 'Crim, that helps alot, and I will check out those sites too, T'Kang! I appriciate you guys reading my post so closely and answering my questions so fully.

Interstellar Machine

[KBF-Crim]

I have a question about all this legal stuff.

Ok...but we are not lawyers....so this is only laymans opinion..

Say I wanted to make a "Freeware" Star Trek game for the Dyanverse Community.

Ok...well...right there you are messing with paramounts bananas (intellectual property)....and remember..paramount is an 800 lb gorilla...

  It would cost people nothing,

That may or may not be a positve factor....800 lb gorillas arent in the habit of giving out bananas for free...

simply download the thing from Dynaverse.net (or wherever) and play the game.

I can tell you right now without even asking Frey....DV,net wont have any part of it...it's possible you might not be able to even post a link to it...

DV.net has an irrational fear of 800 lb gorillas...

  First, would I still need permission from Paramont in any way to be able to do this?

Technically yes...since you are using paramounts intellectual property...

Disclaimer #1....they may not ever find out about it...

Disclaimer #2...they might not even care if they did...

Warning....it's also possible that they employ people to prowl the net looking for abuse of their intellectual property...and paramount has it own expert legal division....typical rights for a video game licensed by parmount could be millions of dollars...they could sue you for damages for lost revenue of those rights you did not purchase...in other words...they could *potentially* sue you for millions of dollars..even though you never made a dime off it....

I remember someone posting a download link for a Star Trek game he made with Darkbasic.

Well...no..it wasnt a "Star trek" game...it was a "dark basic" Mod...not the same thing...Modding a game to contain trek ships is probably more of an issue to the Game developer, rather than paramount..

Did he have to get permission from Paramont in anyway?

I doubt he did....I also doubt Paramount would grant such permission....I also doubt paramount would pursue someone who simply modded a game title to contain trek ships so long as it was posted as a mod... and not marketed as an original "star trek "title..

I also dont doubt that Paramount would take the opportunity to squash someone like a bug if they even thought for a moment that someone was trying to market a new "trek" title without securing a license....regardless if any revenue was generated or not...

  I ask because I'm no lawyer.

I'm no lawyer either...it might be a good idea to ask one before you do something that *might* cause a gorilla attack...

Now assuming you had Paramonts blessing,

I would pretty much count it out...unless you have a huge chunk of cash...

would it be wise to still get a Copyright for this Freeware game,

You are using confusing terms...

a freeware game implies you are either

#1 modding another game (that may be free ware)...

#2 writing up one from scratch (which would be a new *unlicensed* title)

In either case...you cannot copywrite it as far as my understanding...

#1...you cannot copywrite something that is allready in the public domain that some else released...

#2...you cannot copywrite a game based on someone elses intellectual property unless you purchase the right to do so...

or would it be already under the protection of the ELUA?

I dont know...I'd have to read the ELUA...but from the desciption you have given...I doubt it...

[T' Kang]

Thanks 'Crim, that helps alot, and I will check out those sites too, T'Kang! I appreciate you guys reading my post so closely and answering my questions so fully.

Thank you sir.  Crim, as usual, you are right there. Now after a couple more calls to verify with a Fl. attorney, as this is becoming a lengthy and maybe useful thread…

Not to create any flames, but I thought a little more information brought to the surface might be useful. *Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. So assume nothing.* I deal with such things second hand as a consultant for a gaming publisher and a special effects company. They make sure they get their Non-Circumvention Non-Disclosure agreements notarized and delivered! Again, my interest initially was to follow up on requests by a few players to see if I could throw a SFC3 (or like) mod-server or licensed expansion together so they did not need to live as “server rats” and have real lives again (and still enjoy the game). I started by understanding the legal issues, and the contracts involved. I prefer to get the most accurate (and tangible) information as possible before risking my children’s future well being for playing with a game.

Quote
First, would I still need permission from Paramount in any way to be able to do this?

Technically yes...since you are using paramount’s intellectual property...

Disclaimer #1....they may not ever find out about it...

Disclaimer #2...they might not even care if they did...

Warning....it's also possible that they employ people to prowl the net looking for abuse of their intellectual property...and paramount has it own expert legal division....typical rights for a video game licensed by paramount could be millions of dollars...they could sue you for damages for lost revenue of those rights you did not purchase...in other words...they could *potentially* sue you for millions of dollars… even though you never made a dime off it...

Now assuming you had Paramount’s blessing,

I would pretty much count it out...unless you have a huge chunk of cash...

The Paramount rights are controlled by the “mother company.” If you are attempting to purchase a “license” or re-contracting an existing one you would be contacting Viacom Consumer Products, not Paramount (I have “work” contracts involved). There is an exclusivity contract with Perpetual-Activision on all “new” Star Trek games. I thought this was common knowledge. Software publishing rights for such items as “Star Trek” now are hefty percentages of the gross profit, sales performance guarantees, and six digit figures up-front or in escrow to secure the guarantee (aka: huge chunk of cash, for me at least). Viacom does have contractors investigating use-abuse of their intellectual property.

Would it be wise to still get a Copyright for this Freeware game?

You are using confusing terms...

a freeware game implies you are either

#1 modding another game (that may be free ware)...

#2 writing up one from scratch (which would be a new *unlicensed* title)

In either case...you cannot copyright it as far as my understanding...

#1...you cannot copyright something that is all ready in the public domain that some else released...

#2...you cannot copyright a game based on someone else’s intellectual property unless you purchase the right to do so...

or would it be already under the protection of the ELUA?

I don’t know...I'd have to read the ELUA...but from the description you have given...I doubt it...

Intellectual property (software) is different than digital art work (model).  As far as definitions, these seem pretty good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareware

To my understanding …

The SFC3 EULA and current situation is that you can modify the game settings and add “new game materials” without another license, but is not supported by the publisher or developer. I have no idea on the specifics on keeping the Dynaverse3 server connected, and how it fits into this.

As example: I have created original artwork, that does not fall under and existing copyright. I will call it “pointy ship model.” I can then copyright it. I will format the artwork into a format required for registration. Using copyrighted fonts, or the Quad-Color Klingon Trefoil, etc. will complicate-disqualify a copyright. Now I want to post the “pointy ship” on the internet so everyone can appreciate my work. In my file I will have a copyright disclosure (aka “read me”). In that copyright disclosure I will inform the end user of the copyright what that entails, including the limits of their usage of my property.  It will show the year and who owns the copyright and the mailing address where they can be contacted. It is common practice to add internet contact information as well. In the limits of usage (or license) I can identify it as “freeware” or whatever.

Now, as example: I want the pointy ship to be used in another copyrighted game, in this example SFC3.  I know that I can allow the ship to be used in the game under their EULA. So when I convert the pointy ship into a format that can be used in that game, I create another copyright disclosure. It will not only include my full copyright disclosure, but will include the copyrights involved with the game itself. In the case of SFC3 Activision requires a specific disclaimer to be used. In this case they also require the name and (active) E-mail address of the “Creator” of the new game material falling under their game license. This copyright (and disclosure) is the difference between reality and fiction, or, now I can give “permission” to use my pointy ship. The SFC3 “principals” at any time can have me stop using-posting my pointy ship in the format used in SFC3.

Next example: I have created original artwork, but it falls under an existing copyright. There are too many variables. So I will call it “Connie Ship Model. I can use this model in the game under the SFC3 EULA. I will still have to provide the copyright disclosure and disclaimer required. I know that I have no copyright to the art, so I know I have no rights. I do have permission under the EULA to create it and use it. The developer has provided the tools to do this. I will then request that I am credited for my work. The SFC3 “principals” at any time can have me stop using-posting my pointy ship in the format used in SFC3.

There were a few other examples listed; but it is late.   

[KBF-Crim]

Ah...that does fill in a couple holes......lots of good info there...and like I said...I'm a layman too...I've only picked up bits and pieces through these years of SFC addiction...

There is a really good thread in the "OP open source support" board here on DV.net...the info is more SFC specific...but both Harry Lang and Steve Cole posted in the thread...and even Bill fisher from quicksilver..

The Board was set up by my request when we thought we would be getting the source code for SFC...

The concensous was that even if the dynverse gamers association where to be given the code...it could only be used to support the existing games...and never used to produce a derivative product....at least not without license....not impossible....but not probable in the near future...

It is still my greatest hope that we survive as a tight knit community  long enough to see such dreams become reality...

If I have eveyones permission...I may move this thread over there so it doesnt get buried...

[KBF-Crim]

BTW...I'm sure you know that the DGA now owns the SFC2 directory servers....and keeps these servers open and free to the public as a service to the community in perpetuity...

"IF" activision where to infact drop support for SFC3.....we would be the most logical group to pick up support....if they were to co-operate...

This is one reason among many that we strive to stay in the good graces of all intersted parties...

[Magnum357]

Wait a minute!  Now I'm a little confused.  The guy that made that Star Trek game out of Dark Basic, how was that just a "Mode"?  I thought he created a whole game with it?  Was the engine part of something else and he just popped in Star Trek ships?

I have a little programming back ground (in VB) and have always wanted to make a Star Trek game (although I'm sure it would be difficult).  Are you basically saying that unless I want to risk waking that 800 Ib gorrila, I should not even think about it?  What is wrong with a Freeware game?  Isn't that just free advertising of there product?

[KBF-Crim]

Wait a minute!  Now I'm a little confused.  The guy that made that Star Trek game out of Dark Basic, how was that just a "Mode"?

Well...based on what info you gave us...he didnt write the code from scratch...he modded an existing  game into something else by adding stuff....

I thought he created a whole game with it?  Was the engine part of something else and he just popped in Star Trek ships?

I dont know....but that is most likely...without seeing it...I can only guess...

I have a little programming back ground (in VB) and have always wanted to make a Star Trek game (although I'm sure it would be difficult).

Then start with modding something for your own use...or try and get a job for a company licensed to do Trek stuff...

  Are you basically saying that unless I want to risk waking that 800 Ib gorrila, I should not even think about it?

Well..no....I think what we are both saying is that before you RELEASE anything...you check with a qualified attorney....which neither of us are...

A qualified attorney will know wether the gorrilla is likely to wake up or not...

  What is wrong with a Freeware game?  Isn't that just free advertising of there product?

Well...some companies are VERY liberal with their intellectual property...others are insanely restrictive of their percieved "cash cows'...they have a whole legal dept that deals with copywrite infringment...and arent afraid to use it,...


Viacom/Paramount would fit into the second catagory

What we ARE saying is that you should be very careful and fully aware of the risks involved when messing with 800 lb gorillas...or more specificly..the 800 lb gorillas bananas......

You may in fact sneak a few bananas away while the gorilla sleeps....

Or

The gorilla might wake up and catch you grabbing his bananas...and pound you into greasy gopher guts...

OR...the gorilla may become so enraged...he runs around pounding EVERYONE with a banana into greasy gopher guts...

Best to let a sleeping 800 lb gorilla lie...

Yes...I think that is the proper metaphor



Doing an unlicensed game is WAY different than hiding behind "fair use" and doing some models, artwork, or fiction....

Even if you dont plan on makeing one cent off of it...

Best advice is talk to an attorney...one quailfied to deal with licensing and copywrite issues....

[KBF MalaK]

So, my bash of someone elses bash of yet someone elses bash of a taldren model is mine as long as I don't post it (as per the EULA)?

And If I do post it and some company WITH paramounts license to make a new game likes it, they can use it without my permission ?

Heh, there goes 6 months of work down the drain.

[KBF-Crim]

So, my bash of someone elses bash of yet someone elses bash of a taldren model is mine as long as I don't post it (as per the EULA)?

If you dont post it...you can do what ever you want with it...

And If I do post it and some company WITH paramounts license to make a new game likes it, they can use it without my permission ?

Since it's not entirely your own creation....that is correct.

BUT this has NEVER happened....nor it it likely too.....it's just something to be aware of...

Heh, there goes 6 months of work down the drain.

How do you figure?......if you like creating something...and want people to use it...how is that wasted time?...as I said above....just becuase you know understand how copywrite works...doesnt mean someone will trot in here and call in the mark....

And like I said...it's only a point of discussion...

All it really means is that you cant copywrite it for several reasons...

#1...it's based on previous "licensed" work....

#2...it's based on someone elses Intellectual property...

#3....it's created for use in the game and falls under EULA...

 

[KAT J'inn]

It's a work of future billing creation art.

 <sniff>

I'm a tad verklimpt right now.

<sniff>

[KBF-Crim]

It's a work of future billing creation art.

 <sniff>

I'm a tad verklimpt right now.

<sniff>

See...talk about money three times and who shows up?

A lawyer

[OlBuzzard]

It's a work of future billing creation art.

 <sniff>

I'm a tad verklimpt right now.

<sniff>

See...talk about money three times and who shows up?

A lawyer

 

I will say one thing for ya Crim and T'Kang  ...

this has to be one of the BEST threads on this subject we have seen without the usual pissing contest and flame throwing matches I've seen...

+1 for both of ya

The simple fact is and remains that reguardless of how partial, fond of the game or Trek we are ...  there are "rights" and legal matters to be considered before we can just jump in and do what ever we feel like.

Any time anyone ventures into this arena we must take the time to consider, and as much as possible understand the ramifications of the matter.  Even though there is dissagreement ..  what is legal .. and right ... is after all both "legal and right".  Yes it is often times a bit frustrating ... but:  "it is what it is".  Our best efforts are best spent working "with the system".

[KBF-Crim]

Well buzz...the SFC community is the only one I've ever been a part of...SFC is the only reason I'm even online at all...

I view it as a wonderous oasis in a desert of mediocrady....

I can't script...

I havent learned to model yet..

And I have little time to write...

So ..I do what I can do...

Volunteer around here and be an active and honorable player.

A small fish in a big and wonderous pond.

[KBF-Crim]

I was think of something along the lines of firefly myself...

[Magnum357]

I agree aswell.  If I ever get good at programming, I was thinking about making a Space Combat game and have it Modable if you want.  That probably would be the safest way to go if you don't want too upset 800 Ib gorillas.   

[T' Kang]

Magnum, I am not familiar with Creative Commons. I do know that, "I did it for free" never excuses responsibility-liability. Again, my interest initially was to follow up on requests by a few players to see if I could throw a SFC3 (or like) mod-server or licensed expansion together. I started by understanding the legal issues, and the contracts involved. An attorney knows this as due diligence. Did you do what you are supposed to, before there was a problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_diligence

[NannerSlug]

Here's what bothers me about what you told me via msmessenger.. that if we put a model in our mod that we did not know was tinkered with or made by someone who used a hacked copy of 3ds- then we could have charges filed against us. This is outrageous. i have no clue who built what with what. If this is the case, then this and most other modding and modeling communities are in serious trouble.

That would mean if you kit bashed a model which was made by a pirated copy of 3ds or made a mod and included that model, then you could be criminally liable? this doesnt make sense, and to be frank really ticks me off because i DONT know what people used to build the models in my mod (as i am sure any other modders are out there).

j'inn - what say you?

[KBF MalaK]

Here's what bothers me about what you told me via msmessenger.. that if we put a model in our mod that we did not know was tinkered with or made by someone who used a hacked copy of 3ds- then we could have charges filed against us. This is outrageous. i have no clue who built what with what. If this is the case, then this and most other modding and modeling communities are in serious trouble.

That would mean if you kit bashed a model which was made by a pirated copy of 3ds or made a mod and included that model, then you could be criminally liable? this doesnt make sense, and to be frank really ticks me off because i DONT know what people used to build the models in my mod (as i am sure any other modders are out there).

j'inn - what say you?

How would one know if the design program was hacked from looking at the mod ?????

That makes NO sense

[KBF-Crim]

Here's what bothers me about what you told me via msmessenger.. that if we put a model in our mod that we did not know was tinkered with or made by someone who used a hacked copy of 3ds- then we could have charges filed against us. This is outrageous. i have no clue who built what with what. If this is the case, then this and most other modding and modeling communities are in serious trouble.

That would mean if you kit bashed a model which was made by a pirated copy of 3ds or made a mod and included that model, then you could be criminally liable? this doesnt make sense, and to be frank really ticks me off because i DONT know what people used to build the models in my mod (as i am sure any other modders are out there).

j'inn - what say you?

I think the due diligence on your part would be simply making sure the model is credited...

If the person submitting that credit lied to you.....I dont see how you could be held responsible...

[OlBuzzard]

Here's what bothers me about what you told me via msmessenger.. that if we put a model in our mod that we did not know was tinkered with or made by someone who used a hacked copy of 3ds- then we could have charges filed against us. This is outrageous. i have no clue who built what with what. If this is the case, then this and most other modding and modeling communities are in serious trouble.

That would mean if you kit bashed a model which was made by a pirated copy of 3ds or made a mod and included that model, then you could be criminally liable? this doesnt make sense, and to be frank really ticks me off because i DONT know what people used to build the models in my mod (as i am sure any other modders are out there).

j'inn - what say you?

I think the due diligence on your part would be simply making sure the model is credited...

If the person submitting that credit lied to you.....I dont see how you could be held responsible...

IMHO if every model folder had the correct info in them referring to the source as the responsible  "designer" if it was anything other than a stock model from (in this case) Taldren ...   the person responsible for the design would be held accountable.  Unless of course you knowingly deposited models in the MOD that you knew or suspected that the artist in question was infact using a "pirated" copy of (I'm guessing in this case)  3D studio max.  If you had such knowledge of person(s) doing this ..  then you are an accomplice of sorts in the distribution of their "illegal operation" or work.

(hehehe  don't you know J'inn is going to have a field day with this response.  But hey...  what the heck this is my best impersonation of a lawyer I can come up with)

 

[NannerSlug]

ill be blunt about this. to me it sounds silly. why would a prosecutor seek a criminal action against someone using a sign made in a hacked copy of illustrator or photoshop? the same applies here.

of course this is all assuming that the license number would be in the .mod format.

sorry folks, i just dont want to see my entire life go down the tubes because of some one using a hacked copy of 3ds. as for assuming - my personal guess is that there may be one or two legit modelers what use legit copies of 3ds. That is my personal guess and is not meant to get anyone upset.

does anyone know if your license number actually does reside inside 3ds.. personally, i think this whole issue should stay low. Crim said it best.. you dont want to anger the 800lb gorilla. if you wake it, they will smash everyone.

[OlBuzzard]

ill be blunt about this. to me it sounds silly. why would a prosecutor seek a criminal action against someone using a sign made in a hacked copy of illustrator or photoshop? the same applies here.

of course this is all assuming that the license number would be in the .mod format.

sorry folks, i just dont want to see my entire life go down the tubes because of some one using a hacked copy of 3ds. as for assuming - my personal guess is that there may be one or two legit modelers what use legit copies of 3ds. That is my personal guess and is not meant to get anyone upset.

does anyone know if your license number actually does reside inside 3ds.. personally, i think this whole issue should stay low. Crim said it best.. you dont want to anger the 800lb gorilla. if you wake it, they will smash everyone.

1.  FYI  I did give you a +1 earlier today ....   just because of the positive impact you have had on so much.

2.  If you have the proper notations to who acutally authored the models then you should be ok ( I would think).  Heck from what you are saying, if the person who did the USS Bass Master used that stuff  (and there are few copies with my name on the credits as it should be) ..  someone might want to throw my butt in the can over the same thing.

Just use your head.  It sounds to me like you are going thermal over nothing.  I'm certain that I know you well enough to know you don't have nor do you use such items. 

ALSO please note Nanner:  I am not on a crusade.  Please do not implicate that I am.  I DO, however, very strongly disapprove of the piracy of ANY computer programs.  It is theft ..  it is wrong.  It's that simple.

[NannerSlug]

I am sorta going thermal about it because I want to stay very far away from anything pirated and I can just see nothing good from the direction this might be going. I just do not know what people used to make the models with. There are appropriate acrediation so yeah, I am fine on that - but it just sounds like if you even use (or kit bashed) a model  made by a hacked piece of software you are in the soup - and that sounds just plain silly.

I hope you are right. Most of us who have created a mod more than likely did not ask "hey, did you use a hacked copy of 3DS, or a legit copy." It was more on the lines.. "Cool ship, could we use it?"

Anyways. Sorry, but I get concered when people start throwing around the term "criminal" just for using models in any gaming community.

Downloading and distributing Warez is somthing completely different than using somthing which you do not know what was made on.

[OlBuzzard]

I am sorta going thermal about it because I want to stay very far away from anything pirated and I can just see nothing good from the direction this might be going. I just do not know what people used to make the models with. There are appropriate acrediation so yeah, I am fine on that - but it just sounds like if you even use (or kit bashed) a model  made by a hacked piece of software you are in the soup - and that sounds just plain silly.

I hope you are right. Most of us who have created a mod more than likely did not ask "hey, did you use a hacked copy of 3DS, or a legit copy." It was more on the lines.. "Cool ship, could we use it?"

Anyways. Sorry, but I get concered when people start throwing around the term "criminal" just for using models in any gaming community.

Downloading and distributing Warez is somthing completely different than using somthing which you do not know what was made on.

BINGO !

I believe that the people I deal with here and now are above board as far as I know.  If they are doing something that is wrong I hope they stop and fix it.

You are also right that as a community that shares stuff with each other all the time we are all on the honor system.  None of us have the time to do all of the amount of work that is generated in here on our own.  That is why we try to work togeather.  ( At least that is my persperctive)

I also agree that throwing around such "accusations" can certainly cause a stir.  Please note:  I did not start this thread.  Also please note:  That no one suggested that you Nanner did anything that was illegal.  If any one did any sort of investigation at all they would know that you are unquestionably are of the highest integrity in the community...  barr none.  (That does not mean they love ya ..  just that you are above reproach as far as your charactor is concerned).

Any one worth 10 cents understand what you are saying ...

I also agree that for my part ...  the discussion on what has been done in the past is best left alone ..  and maybe we all just be a little more wise on how we do things.

[KBF-Crim]

Agreed...this is simply a discussion on what to avoid if someone wishes to avoid unforseen difficulties...

No one is finger pointing.

And it should not devolve into such...

[T' Kang]

Agreed...this is simply a discussion on what to avoid if someone wishes to avoid unforseen difficulties...

No one is finger pointing.

And it should not devolve into such...

BINGO !

I believe that the people I deal with here and now are above board as far as I know.  If they are doing something that is wrong I hope they stop and fix it.

You are also right that as a community that shares stuff with each other all the time we are all on the honor system.  None of us have the time to do all of the amount of work that is generated in here on our own.  That is why we try to work together.  ( At least that is my perspective)

I also agree that throwing around such "accusations" can certainly cause a stir.  Please note:  I did not start this thread.  Also please note:  That no one suggested that you Nanner did anything that was illegal.  If any one did any sort of investigation at all they would know that you are unquestionably are of the highest integrity in the community...  bar none.  (That does not mean they love ya ..  just that you are above reproach as far as your character is concerned).

Any one worth 10 cents understand what you are saying ...

I also agree that for my part ...  the discussion on what has been done in the past is best left alone ..  and maybe we all just be a little more wise on how we do things.

Nanner, Crim, OlBuzzard; I want to insure that the “community” knows that when I started this thread I did not want to cause a flame war, or cause a “hassle.” My opinion is that this is a community about helping, and looking out for one another. Opinions aside: the “reality” is that when there is a “problem,” especially when the 800lb gorilla’s thinks his bananas are missing, the one closest to the cage catches some “heat.” I do know that what “I think” will not count for much with an 800lb gorilla. I don’t know much, “laws” and “technology” changes daily. There are “practical” limitations on everything. I am not an attorney, so I consult with one as my due diligence.

[Cyberkada]

Not my direct interest or concern, but I wonder what the "laws" think of the Bab5 or BSG stuff modded for other games... Have you heard of any "conflicts?"

I havent heard a thing...B5 is a dead series...BSG would probably simply love the exposure at this point...

That attitude might change should someone approach them a serious offer to license a game based on their Intellectual property...

Even then...BSG as based on someone else's property...they just bought rights IIRC...

I know there is a B5 based table top game simular to SFB though....that company would probably be the best one to contact if someone wanted to do a game...

I also know that Cybercada was working on a B5 game....not sure he is wroking with anyone else or not...

Some companies view such things as free advertising so long as the Mods are respectful etc.....others...like paramount...religiously protect their intellectual property....

Its still in the pipeline... you should see how advanced shaders work wonders... I'm going through Mongoose Publishing... They have licensed pretty much most game material from Warner Bros.  for Babylon 5.

Maybe I best not convert the B5 stuff I have to MOD format...

[KBF-Crim]

Not my direct interest or concern, but I wonder what the "laws" think of the Bab5 or BSG stuff modded for other games... Have you heard of any "conflicts?"

I havent heard a thing...B5 is a dead series...BSG would probably simply love the exposure at this point...

That attitude might change should someone approach them a serious offer to license a game based on their Intellectual property...

Even then...BSG as based on someone else's property...they just bought rights IIRC...

I know there is a B5 based table top game simular to SFB though....that company would probably be the best one to contact if someone wanted to do a game...

I also know that Cybercada was working on a B5 game....not sure he is wroking with anyone else or not...

Some companies view such things as free advertising so long as the Mods are respectful etc.....others...like paramount...religiously protect their intellectual property....

Its still in the pipeline... you should see how advanced shaders work wonders... I'm going through Mongoose Publishing... They have licensed pretty much most game material from Warner Bros.  for Babylon 5.

Maybe I best not convert the B5 stuff I have to MOD format...

Awesome!

[Lord Schtupp]

So - who now owns the .mod format?

[T' Kang]

*Disclaimer* I am not an attorney. In many jurisdictions it is “illegal” to give any “legal” advice without being licensed by the State Bar Association. For the sake of casual conversation: when dealing with a part of “the *.mod” I do not know. The tools to convert are Taldren’s (actually the bankruptcy receivers). The *.mod format used by the game converts the models from the licensed AutoDesk’s 3DSMax to the realtime (Quicksilver?) engine in SFC3. From that point, now in the format to be used by the game it is either “illegal to be used-distributed” or identified as “New Game Materials,” and it falls under the EULA. If dealing with reality involving “Art Work” (aka a model), it all comes down to who has the copyright. Intellectual property falls under a different set of rules.

We have orchards around here so; the conversion might be like this: I can buy some fertilizer for my palm trees (legal). I can buy some fuel oil-diesel (legal). I mix them together, and blow up stumps on my property (legal); I might have problems without having an explosive license. The license is the EULA (legal). No license to use explosives might be deemed very illegal. I also had it explained as you have some tomato seeds and throw them on someone else’s property. The plants grow. You take the tomatoes off the plants, and eat one. What do you think can happen?

I am just an engineer.  I had the “game stuff” explained to me like this:  The “land” is owned by Viacom (they own Paramount). The “apartment building” is owned by Activision. The “construction-contractor” that built the building is Taldren. I am the “renter” of the apartment.

I can buy some cans of paint and a roll of carpet. I “borrowed” some of the tools for installation from the contractor. I now install the carpet and paint the walls. The paint and carpet is now part of the apartment building. The permission to do it is part of the agreement you have on your apartment lease (EULA). The operative part of this is that the end user “owns” nothing. As a renter I can do a lot of things with the apartment, but there are many things I cannot do, but I do not own anything.