Taldrenites > Starfleet Command Models

Apollo-class USS Centaur

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Scottish Andy:
Yup, using it as my NEC. I'd use t he Daran, without the megaphasers--but there isn't one. :D

Since I'm displaying your wares, care to resize that ship for me? Please?

ModelsPlease:

--- Quote from: Scottish Andy on January 14, 2007, 05:06:54 pm ---Yup, using it as my NEC. I'd use t he Daran, without the megaphasers--but there isn't one. :D

Since I'm displaying your wares, care to resize that ship for me? Please?

--- End quote ---


There's a Daran on the way  ;) Why not use Mackies Miranda/Excelsior http://outalance.battleclinic.com/darkcentral/dldir/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=132

The mini is attached

Scottish Andy:
Thanks MP, I really do appreciate this. I'll try her out when I get home. Can I safely assume the bitmaps will still go on properly? That is, the smaller model can still use the same bitmaps, and those bitmaps won't be too big for the model now?

I'll also have a looke at the FNisk when I get home. Kinda curious and there's no pic at the DL site.

Thanks again!

P.S. - Just out of curiosity, what size do you think the Centaur should be? If you're willing to discuss it, I can bore you to tears with my rationale for her being 210m long.  ;)

Scottish Andy:
Hi Fallen,

I actually discussed this with Adrian Jones of http://www.uss-sheffield.co.uk/ and Bernd Schneider of http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/. Here's what I said in my opening salvo to Bernd.

"Adrian says you are apparently convinced of the greater credibility of the 381m ship length generated by the Excelsior components. I have become convinced (due to my own no doubt peverse need to be awkward, I'm sure *grin*) of the opposite, that the 210m length generated by the Miranda components is the correct one.

It was your own article on this that first made be seriously consider the Centaur type as one worthy of inclusion into my own Star Trek Universe, being the only detailed one I've encountered so far which entertains the smaller size.

I personally cannot get past the Miranda's photon pod. Either I have to make it into a completely different shape--which is impractical as it was very clearly seen on screen--or the pod has to be its original size as mounted on the Miranda class. The fact that the Miranda's bridge and "roll bar" pylons were also used cinches it for me, and the huge green-tinted "windows" on her saucer which would stretch for decks on an Excelsior-sized saucer is what helped me convince Adrian of my position. The small size does make her rather awkward for internal space, but it suits her role as observed on the show itself: a short-range escort type.

The pod itself is clearly a photon pod, and since the tubes are exactly the same size in relation to the pod itself, either it simply is an actual Miranda photon pod, or the Excelsior-scaled ship has four huge ports more suited to launching shuttles than torpedoes.

This picture shows a JHAS at fairly close range to a Galaxy-class for size comparison:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:USS_Odyssey_firing_phasers.jpg

This site has a pretty accurate model built, including the large saucer windows, which clearly implies a smaller ship even though the model builder himself favours the longer ship:
http://msfm.seryan.com/stephen_l/usscentaur.htm

And this site is my main visual argument for a smaller Centaur:
http://www.shiporama.org/ds9premr.htm

If you look at the sequence of pictures, second down on the left shows the JHAS flying at extremely close range past the Centaur, and her saucer is definitely not even twice the size of the Bug ship.

Since their dimensions are roughly similar, and the bug ship is roughly as long as it is wide, it would make the saucer some 100m across, and thus the length of the Centaur would be around the 200m mark.

From the battle sequence it seems far more likely that the VFX crew were working from the assumption of a smaller ship."

Subsequent emails forwarded counter arguments and counter-counter reponses.

"Another argument for the "small ship" is her weapons. In the "Battle" pic, the Centaur fires from the very tip of her saucer, from three of those copper bumps on the physical model. If this was a full-sized Excelsior saucer, why not fire from any of the Excelsior's standard phaser banks? My own explanation of the bumps is, rather than bring triple turrets they are a primitive phaser array, predating the "proper" ones of the Ambassador."

"Another model shows an excellent solution for the smaller ship; the "shuttlebay" on the top of the saucer in front of the bridge--only called a shuttlebay because it is the rear shuttlebay of the same Excelsior model used for the saucer--is never actually seen on the model on screen where they concentrate on the underside of the Centaur. However, this model--the USS Shaffer--has this copper-painted door as a blue navigational deflector instead, and I think it works very well."

<will insert a link to the Shaffer later, when I can find it>

"However, with these ships it is strictly on a case by case basis. General rules do not apply to the kitbashes. The Trident design, for example. I am curiously drawn to this ship as displayed on your site. It is obviously Excelsior-sized, since only some re-arranged pylons are from another model and can easily be dismissed.
Had the Centaur's nacelles been standard Excelsior ones, I would have little interest in the ship and we wouldn't be having this discussion because it would be too obviously assigned Excelsior-scaling, resulting in the same problem as with the Shelley.

The rather horrific Raging Queen/Shelley is something else, but I hadn't factored it in when considering my Centaur arguments. The two cases are distinct, but most definitely related. Since the Excelsior saucer and secondary hull are very prominent, I too would have said they have to be Excelsior-scaled, but that does  make the Miranda nacelles ridiculously large. By your own reasoning, the ships scaled to Constitution size have the Excelsior saucer a bare 6m shorter than a 210m Centaur. If the figures can be blurred slightly, we could have a Shelley of around 180m with a saucer the same size as the Centaur. The smaller Centaur actually sets a precedence for the Constitution-scaled Shelley.

However, my own reasoning for the smaller Centaur was directly linked to the massive alterations to standard Excelsior components: the nacelles are no longer recognisable as Excelsior nacelles, the bridge is not an Excelsior one, the "shuttlebay" addition, and the modifcations to the saucer itself all combined to erode the credibility of the only truly Excelsior-scaled component--the disk of the saucer. I belive that makes the case for a smaller Centaur more compelling. Lots of "special circumstances."

if you care, let me know what you think of all that.  ;D

ModelsPlease:
I have to agree with the Centaur Length: approx. 381m. The Miranda'esque torpedo bay or bridge to me, has no bearing in the overall size.

To address some of the other statements ..........


--- Quote ---"Another argument for the "small ship" is her weapons. In the "Battle" pic, the Centaur fires from the very tip of her saucer, from three of those copper bumps on the physical model. If this was a full-sized Excelsior saucer, why not fire from any of the Excelsior's standard phaser banks?
--- End quote ---


Put simply it could be a lack of power. with no secondary hull, the space available on the saucer would be vastly more limited and a smaller warp core would mean less power. But also notice on the actual model, the centaur has standard excelsior weapon banks, as well as groups of those 3 weapons around the entire saucer edge. It could be they serve the same purpose as the Miranda's mega phasers. Allowing the Centaur to us it's standard arrays for defense and the others for attack.

www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/ds9tm/uss_centaur_top.jpg

The issues of scale and other quirks such as Constitution nacelles on the Raging Queen and Curry designs..Simply put is a lack of attention to detail by those who made the show, and production costs. (BTW I do scale down the nacelles to actualy connie size on both those designs)

I see the centaur in the same relationship to the excelsior, as the miranda is to the connie. In the end it all comnes down to a personal choice in each persons own Trek Universe  ;)

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