OT...you know something always puzzled me in trek...

[Atolm-Rising]

In TMP (movie) warp drive couldn't be engaged within the solarsystem for fear of stellar bodies and possible damage to the system(whatever that means)...kirk even states in his log that they would have to risk engaging the warp-drive while still in the solar-system...(now I dunno if this has to do with the engine "imbalance" or not...)
Now, in ST: FC, Cochrane engaged warp 1 (at least lightspeed mind you) not only in the solar system (w/o a deflector or debris shield), and only got a bit past the moon!)...also in every subsequent trek flic after tmp warp in a system was fine...hell in ST:IV voyage home, they warped while still in the Earth's atmosphere!
Am I missing something here?  I mean yes its fiction, but sh*t.

Any insight on this?

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

There was a lot of emphasis on being as scientifically accurate as possible during the making of TMP. I think it was the book "Chekovs' enterprise" that names the NASA consultant. It makes sense not to want to enter warp near a gravitational body and really not to do so near a planets' atmosphere.  Some critics feltwhat really hurt TMP the most was how accurate it tried to be.

In the ST 4 novel, they don't engage impulse after beaming up the whales, until after they have cleared earths' atmosphere and that probably got changed in the film to make the sequence tighter and more visually interesting.

My old boss (who happenned to be our news director) had a picture on the wall with a caption that read "don't let the facts stand in the way of a good story".  For whatever reasons, continuity between TMP and the other movies for warp and impulse was lost.  Frankly it makes no sense for Kirk to ever order impulse in space dock in ST 6 for what this theoretical system would do and the speed to be achieved at 1/4 impulse.  Anyway, just remember the caption.

[Fedman NCC-3758]

My understanding of the science is they could not safely go to warp while in the proximity of a planet due to it's mass and the gravity well that would exist.  It was the main reason the Klingons did not attempt to warp away from Vger when they came under attack.

Though that whole idea was shot when Kirk ordered warp speed to escape from the USS Excelsior.

So perhaps it can be done but with extreme risk.

[FCM-Corbomite-XC]

I never thought there was any physical restriction to warping inside a solar system. I just figured it was against flight rules around Earth because of traffic issues. I gotta believe that there would be a substantial amount of incoming and outgoing spacecraft around the Federation's headquarters.

[Vipre]

Is it possible the "restriction" in TMP was related to the drive being untested? I haven't watched the movie recently so it's just a guess but the idea of throwing the switch on a newly minted system in the middle of home plate doesn't sound like something the Starfleet Safety Council would sign off on. Once the kinks are worked out and you know hitting warp 1 isn't going to rip apart the fabric of the universe the restriction gets lifted and you get to jump in and out quicker.

[knightstorm]

It was warp on leaving the solar system because they wanted to have a few pretty flybys first.  Although officially, it could be to give Scotty some time to work with the engines which were presumably of a completely new design that was untested.

[Raven Night]

This is the response I recieved from a friend. Quoted with permission of course...


"Well, mainly its just that alot of time passed between the movies, and different writers were involved. But if you need some trekno, I guess I would say it's because the computers couldn't be trusted to set a proper course without danger of collisions back then."

So I replied...

The point was made that Cochrane engaged warp close to Earth.

And he replied...

"Yea, well, he also got drunk before the flight. Go figure."

Lol. I guess that answers that.

[Starforce2]

it's also possible that the same gravity well cleaned the orbit around earth of small particles much in the same way shepard moons clean paths in saturns rings. After all, how many missions got sent to the moon without hitting anything? Traveling faster wont make the hit more likely, just more devistating. He got lucky.

[Capt_Pestalence_XC]

I once read a book based on the TOS series where Kirk attempted a warp out of a planets orbit and created a subspace anomaly within a gravity well that was slowly sucking the ship into oblivion, warp nacelles first.. Kirk bought time by running the ship full impulse, but could not break the gravitational pull of the anomaly. The Nacells had to be cut off the ship for the crew to survive.

However, in the book, warp in an atmosphere was theoretically possible along with impulse drive (shuttles use impulse all the time in atmosphere).. however with the warp engines, there is a great risk.. in the book Kirk learned first hand what can happen if the conditions are not optimum.

I can't recall the name of the book, I read it several years ago, but it was pretty good.

[Vipre]

You might be thinking of "Prime Directive". In an emergency Kirk orders warp speed while inside the atmosphere of a planet and they nearly rip the ship apart. The damage report with Scott explaining that "subspace anomaly/singularity" issue happening to the nacelle is my favorite part.

From a review...

Visiting the somewhat primitive world of Talin IV, somehow, some way, an accident involving the Enterprise and her Warp Engines being utilized within the planets atmosphere literally devastates the entire world. Within the blink of an eye, millions of the planets inhabitants are snuffed out, and Starfleets flagship, and the entire bridge crew are forever changed. The ship is almost ruined in the aftermath, and the crew is scattered amongst the many different worlds of the Federation. The many facets of Starfleets Prime Directive are explored and even though this whole situation seems to be the result of an accident and not a purposeful violation of the order, the results are the same. What happens as a result could very easily be considered one of the best Trek novels ever written.

[Capt_Pestalence_XC]

Yep, that is the book.. The planet that Kirk did it in survived, but it nearly destroyed the big E.. they had to take the nacelles off the ship in order to free it from the singularity, and as the book stated at the end, it took weeks for the Enterprise to make it to a starbase with a repair facility under impulse power, Structural integrity was too low for use of tractor beams..

Very good book indeed.

[Fallen_Warrior]

If i remember correctly...There was also this issue in DS9 the Bashir founder stole a runabout and was going to use it's engines (by going into warp with in the Bajorian system) to disrupt the something or other... I only vaguely remember the episode so i could be wrong....

But the thought occurred to me, Wouldn't the main reason warp shouldn't be used in system be this:

Gravitational fields make the forming of a subspace warp bubble extremely difficult, that combined with other gravitational fields of a solar system bodies, could pull the ship into a planet or other large body at the speed of light.... which would in turn send debris at either the speed of light or pretty close to it in all directions.

The processing speed that a computer might need to calculate the pull of the gravitational fields, in relation to the speeds, paths of all bodies within a solar system might have been too much for the newly refitted Enterprise (even more so without Spock or a fully rated science officer....Could be another reason Kirk didn't want to leave without a Vulcan on the bridge staff)


Kudos to Azel, its always nice to get a topic like this to wrap our brains round.

[Interstellar Machine]

I think Cochrane going to warp in the solar system can be compared to early atomic bomb testing. When atomic weapons were first tested, they were tested out in the Arizona desert and they even had soldiers training by dispatching into the blast area immediately after the initial explosion. Cochrane may not have been aware of the issues with going to warp inside a solar system, and his small ship may not have made a large impact. Probably over time, environmentalists came to realize that it was causing damage and as warp technology increased in power, the damage may have increased.

I don't know just thinking outloud.

[Fallen_Warrior]

Or Cochrane, knew exactly what the risks were.... and had planned the launch when all major astral bodies were in a certain alignment. its a shame as all this is theory... Imagine if warp drive was attainable... What kind of restrictions or regulations would be in place to make it as safe as possible... kinda mind boggling if you ask me. But i do like the idea that Cochrane was too drunk to care... it suits his personality very well.

[Bernard Guignard]

You might be thinking of "Prime Directive". In an emergency Kirk orders warp speed while inside the atmosphere of a planet and they nearly rip the ship apart. The damage report with Scott explaining that "subspace anomaly/singularity" issue happening to the nacelle is my favorite part.

From a review...

Visiting the somewhat primitive world of Talin IV, somehow, some way, an accident involving the Enterprise and her Warp Engines being utilized within the planets atmosphere literally devastates the entire world. Within the blink of an eye, millions of the planets inhabitants are snuffed out, and Starfleets flagship, and the entire bridge crew are forever changed. The ship is almost ruined in the aftermath, and the crew is scattered amongst the many different worlds of the Federation. The many facets of Starfleets Prime Directive are explored and even though this whole situation seems to be the result of an accident and not a purposeful violation of the order, the results are the same. What happens as a result could very easily be considered one of the best Trek novels ever written.

My God,  I've read so many Trek books that I'm starting to forget them  I guess I don't have to buy any new ones now I can recycle the old ones 

I always thought that the reason the bird of prey got away with warping in an atmosphere was because it was less massive than a constitution class
the smaller the ship the more options you have. 

[atheorhaven]

Personally, I thought that the reason why you didn't warp was for exactly the reason shown.. anti-matter imbalance could create a wormhole, and if gravity and the rip in subspace pulled in an asteroid in the movie, imagine what something like that would do near the moon or in atmosphere.

My 2 cents..

[Kreeargh]

In TMP (movie) warp drive couldn't be engaged within the solarsystem for fear of stellar bodies and possible damage to the system(whatever that means)...kirk even states in his log that they would have to risk engaging the warp-drive while still in the solar-system...(now I dunno if this has to do with the engine "imbalance" or not...)
Now, in ST: FC, Cochrane engaged warp 1 (at least lightspeed mind you) not only in the solar system (w/o a deflector or debris shield), and only got a bit past the moon!)...also in every subsequent trek flic after tmp warp in a system was fine...hell in ST:IV voyage home, they warped while still in the Earth's atmosphere!
Am I missing something here?  I mean yes its fiction, but sh*t.

Any insight on this?

I think its federation rules about subspace traffic all the ships traveling about the planets mars, earth and Jupiter etc. A warp jump in those days you could have slammed in to a freighter etc.  By TNG i guess they got better traffic control.  If i recall both chocrane and the bounty bird of prey jumps they both warped in to space that has no space traffic like that. (back in time)
 The engine imbalance i think was caused by rushing out the ship when she was not ready kinda like microsoft products and Spock delivered the service pack 2 for the enterprise
Anyway thats how i read it. 
The thing i don't get about that imbalance scene was wouldn't the asteroid have to be traveling at warp speed or near warp speed for that to happen? and is that possable for a asteroid to get going that fast? Technobabble i guess.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Do remember that in TNG, Starfleet put a big "Speed Limit" sign out in the galaxy because it was discovered that Warp Drive was tearing holes in the fabric of subspace.  It's possible that the damage to Subspace was known to happen before that, but it was only noticeable in places where a gravitational field was located prior to that incident.

[Czar Mohab]

[nerd]

I feel like such a nerd for even reading this posting...

but I actually have something to add...

Best of Both Worlds Part 2...

Clearly shown, both the Borg cube and Ent-D drop to impulse entering Sol System. More to the point, Cap'n Will (IIRC, it could have been the commanderette, been a really long time) gives the order to slow to impulse. Every single tiny spec of life is threatened by this massive cube o' death and assimilation, and the one ship that can stop it HAS to drop to impulse, when catching it at warp would shave several minutes off of intercept time AND keep the cube further from Earth. I don't care what you say about freighters and traffic, there shouldn't be anything more than something resembling The Battle of the Line (Ooo Sci-Fi cross reference) orbiting Earth, and nothing else but the small drone ships (that the cube dutifully plows through) that are seen trying to slow the cube's advance. There wasn't anything else shown, and can easily be assumed without showing that not a single other ship was present.

Let's recap:

1.) Need to catch bad guy at warp outweighed by need to be at impulse.
2.) No traffic. No other ships, for that matter, between E and Cube.
3.) Even the bad guy, pursued by what might be a threat, makes the drop to sublight at about the same spot.

***

Look, there is only one reason why you theoretically shouldn't travel faster than the speed of light within a solar system: Too many variables. Start with gravity. Move to solar wind. Movement of the planetary bodies. Movement of natural and artificial satellites. Movement of the solar system within the galaxy (and galaxy within the universe). Mass of the ship in transit. Computational power of the computer running the warp navigational program. Engine efficiency. Solar flares. Relativistic positioning of sub atomic particles within the spacial tapestry. Shoot... this list could go on forever, and we're just guessing on the variables that might affect FTL travel, and why you *shouldn't* go to warp in a solar system. Now, as the Word of Trek states, you *can*, just shouldn't.

Thus, both the Borg Cube and the Ent-D are slowed to sublight such that they can avoid overtaxing their soon-to-be-needed-for-combat computers.

[/nerd]

Seriously: I don't have a clue. I'd like to think that no matter what you can go to warp anywhere you'd like to, just that some places have bigger consequences than others. Such as within a solar system. Please reference Star Wars IV: A New Hope, where Han Solo is explaining the hyperspace computer to Luke; and Babylon 5, Season 4 (Curse me, I forgot the episode name) explaining how the Whitestars are able to hyperspace into the Martian atmosphere. While neither is warp, both hyperspace and warp drive do have similarities (and theoretically would, should they be proven to actually exist), and I think would share similar limitations and usage restrictions.

And more seriously: writers of Trek said so, therefore it was done.

Czar "Just needed to put that scene from BoBW2 in your minds." Mohab, who adds that this should be a topic submitted to the Mythbusters. If nothing else, they might get something FTL capable out of it, and possibly blow stuff up.
 

[Anduril]

So I replied...

The point was made that Cochrane engaged warp close to Earth.

And he replied...

"Yea, well, he also got drunk before the flight. Go figure."

Lol. I guess that answers that.

Exactly.  And what did he know about warp speed and it's possible effects in a solar system?  I'm guessing he didn't have the movies or the dvd's to watch to tell him there might be a problem with engaging the warp engines in the solar system.

As he stated he was in it for the money and like any good engineer he wasn't going to worry about possible consequences he just wanted them to fire and work.

[Starforce2]

It could also be explained by the realativley low power and small size of the vessel. The warpship was barely a runabout in size. Maybe the size and power of the vessel has something to do with it.

[atheorhaven]

The thing i don't get about that imbalance scene was wouldn't the asteroid have to be traveling at warp speed or near warp speed for that to happen? and is that possable for a asteroid to get going that fast? Technobabble i guess.

There's two images that I usually associate with warp drive:


and



The first image I associate with initiating a warp field, and the second with a stable field once established.

The first image shows the push or dimpling on normal space as the field starts to tunnel to subspace, and the second image shows the established field bubbling around the ship in subspace, the front dimpling subspace and the back folding it back.

Now when the field went into imbalance, the front field started to fluctuate and started to form eddies and funnels in normal space, and when the wormhole formed and the stable warp field collapsed, those eddies and funnels coalesced into the wormhole pulling the matter in them into the wormhole.

As an aside, I always thought that this nicely explained the limitation of Warp 10 as well.. to create a field to allow faster travel, a ship would have to put in more power to the fields and keep them stable.  Once you reached Warp 10, the field would have to encompass the universe and the ship would almost have to be almost everywhere at once.  That'd be the transwarp barrier, same as the warp barrier.  To move FTL, subspace was required to allow something to move out of the constraints of the normal physical limitations of the universe.  To move transwarp, you'd have to almost go into a sub-subspace.

[Fallen_Warrior]

Theres one thing wrong with that theory.. Borg "Transwarp", tunnels through subspace and space either naturally or artificially created...Thus entering subspace completely...  Kinda like wormhole physics for Star gates but not as fast (they still take time to travel and trips do vary and require more power for longer trips)  hence the trippy graphics for Borg "Transwarp" and Slipstream.

Where as the more conventional warp drive merely skips along the surface of deeper levels of subspace for greater speeds. This is because they can still interact with and be interacted with by the level of subspace we reside in... Thus negating in the Theory of Relativity and allowing something to appear to travel at speed of light..Relative to its starting position. Geordi says, "The ship doesn't really move it creates a current of subspace using subspace fields to negate normal rules of physics" 

Now Transwarp As is was planned (Excelsior project)  Was to create a much deeper current and have greater control of these currents...Meaning more speed.. While it did fail at been able to reach anything close to its projected speeds. Its engine tests that passed refined the construction and order of the warp coils, became standard throughout the fleet and are still used in the Galaxy class.

Warp 10 is indeed creating a field that would have to encompass the universe as subspace wouldn't be enough because it is speeds would be for intergalactic purposes only... As a whole it wouldn't be practical for innergalactic travel...unless harnessed into something like the iconian portal... or subspace transporters.



And to kinda contradict myself Warp 10 is a purely subjective term anyway, its been revised atleast 3 times in the standard trek timeline Ent used the same as TOS but harderly got past warp 5.1 or 3.4 in the revised version for TNG All good things had a warp 13 and voyager and DS9 had differnt examples of star fleet changing the "speed limits" due to methods of its power generation abilities

[Star Dragon]

*adds tangent fuel to the fire*

  I thought the Kelvens jacked the Ent in TOS and got them up to warp 17 or 18 for a short time...

It was like crazy man!

[atheorhaven]

*adds tangent fuel to the fire*

  I thought the Kelvens jacked the Ent in TOS and got them up to warp 17 or 18 for a short time...

 It was like crazy man!

Yes, and "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" they also got up to ludicrous speed as well.

[knightstorm]

Writers do lots of stuff for drama that don't always make sense.  For instance, while Best of Both Worlds was an excellent piece of drama, when I look at it critically, I have to ask did the Borg want to get defeated?  They seemed to be bending over backwards to give the Feds chances.  Despite the fact that the borg were known to be capable of traversing distances far faster than anything the feds could hope for, the cube went slowly enough for the Enterprise to keep pace for a short time.  When they needed the cube to slow down so they could do the deflector blast, the Borg decided to completely ignore the away team that was on their ship until they destroyed the power conduits.  Again, despite its termendous speed capabilities, the borg stopped to destroy the fleet at Wolf 359 rather than bypassing them and going straight to earth.  once more they seemed to be moving relatively slowly compared to what they were known to be capable of.

[Vipre]

That might be attributable to the way they travel. The transwarp conduits were shown most notably in Voyager to be artificial constructs it could have easily been that the Borg came in through the nearest transwarp conduit and were restricted to normal warp speeds after. It wasn't that they didn't want to go faster but that they couldn't.

Just a guess though, the Borg became such a joke post TNG that anything's possible.

[knightstorm]

That might be attributable to the way they travel. The transwarp conduits were shown most notably in Voyager to be artificial constructs it could have easily been that the Borg came in through the nearest transwarp conduit and were restricted to normal warp speeds after. It wasn't that they didn't want to go faster but that they couldn't.

Just a guess though, the Borg became such a joke post TNG that anything's possible.

The cube had already been depicted as being easily able to outrun the Enterprise in conventional warp.  Also, why would the borg restrict access to systems like weapons, but leave what is essentially an off switch to the cube accessible?

[Fallen_Warrior]

because no one tried to put a ship to sleep before? Ilm sure if they tried again they would fail because the Borg adapt to attacks... And you have to remember they were not going against a man They were going against data.... he could have broken into the weapons systems if they had more time... thats was just the quickest he could break into.. With what appeared to be Picard's consciousness helping him