Off Topic > Ten Forward
Captains on the bridge.
Lieutenant_Q:
Regarding the Klingons, don't forget the Augment Virus. That right there is probably plenty enough for a war, and that in of itself is kinda the problem. The Earth-Romulan War should have reached its conclusion before the Klingons came on the scene. Otherwise, the Romulans begin their advance into Earth Space, the Klingons, peeved at what Archer has done to them, take advantage of the situation. Game Over, no Federation. The only thing that could save Earth, is a intra-Klingon conflict, probably between the augment infected, and the "true" Klingons.
I don't have near as much problem with the Cloaks, its always been a back and forth between stealth technology and sensor technology. Take a step back from the air and look at naval, because that's what Star Trek was really based on. The reliance on visual spotting made early 20th century engagements an issue of finding the enemy fleet's smoke plumes, then closing and attacking. Emission controls and the Submersible were invented. Then spotting aircraft were developed. Diesel Engines. Attack Aircraft. True Submarines. RADAR. Nuclear Subs. SONAR. SONAR dissipating materials. LIDAR. Mimetic Armor. The need to conceal your position and the need to uncover the other's position has been and always will be a constant fight within the fight. Like juggling your ECM/ECCM in a battle. The problem is, that there's just not that much further that you can go today without true invisibility. And you don't want to write a story set in the future that someone watching it today can say, "But we figured that out five years ago." If you tried to do "We have a blip on the motion sensors, Captain." Today. If the next statement wasn't "Lock Phasers and Fire!" The audience at home would be screaming "Just shoot them!"
EmeraldEdge:
Okay, it's been a while since I went through all this and I've forgotten a lot, but one big one right off the bat, the location of the Klingon homeworld. Didn't it take them 2 days at warp 5 to get there? Just how close is it? Why, in a war, wouldn't they be able to just wipe earth out, given superior numbers and technology, and proximity? Just what shape is the Federation in this universe? Remember V'ger when it was only a few days away and no ships were in range? They were on Earth weren't they? Kind of odd that no other armed vessels would be at earth given a hostile homeworld (the Klingons) is less that a couple days travel away.
Dracho:
--- Quote from: Brush Wolf on April 19, 2012, 09:33:44 pm ---"The finale itself says that the Alliance led to the Federation (Said between Riker and Deeana).
At least 4 races were shown on Enterprise having cloaks. That is pretty darn common."
One problem with a long running series is real world technology catching up and even surpassing the science fiction tech in the shows. When "Balance of Terror" was written we did not have stealth fighters. They knew the SR71 had a low radar profile but it was no where near as stealthy as the F117 and later aircraft.
"Explain how a 3 man Ferengi freighter is so deep into the territory of the future Federation yet none return for centuries?"
The easiest and best explanation is they never called home wanting to preserve their "hunting ground" and then ran afoul of something that stopped them from getting home.
--- End quote ---
And Kirk's communicator looks downright bulky compared to a Motorola Razor.
EmeraldEdge:
I bet his communicator has a much bigger range than your Razor. Especially since most alien planets don't come with cell towers and satellite infrastructure. (and we won't bring up battery life. That things gotta have the juice!) ;)
Nemesis:
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---yes. Its very possible that they didn't mention the war as that would be unnecessary to the plot of the episode.
--- End quote ---
As everything I have ever read has the implication that the Earth-Romulan war led to the Federation it seems unlikely that it would not have been mentioned. They mentioned that the NX01 had just completed its 2nd 5 year mission (which the war would have interrupted).
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---What I'm saying is that the birth of the federation could be less clear cut, and depending on how you look at it the alliance could be viewed as its beginning, or as something that led to its beginning.
--- End quote ---
Deanna and Riker directly referred to the Alliance leading to the Federation. It would have to lead to it in less than 1 year after the Alliance or the dates are wrong. Can you really believe such an important thing could be negotiated and ratified that quickly? I can't.
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---As for cloaks, who had them besides the Sulibans and the Romulans? Also, its very possible that they could be field testing them there.
--- End quote ---
The number (100's if not 1000's) of mines and the 2 ships in an unoccupied frontier world seems a little much for just field testing.
The sphere builders were cloaking moon sized objects and were known to a significant number of future federation races. Then there were the race that impregnated Trip.
There were whole religions around the sphere builders there must have been millions if not billions of people who knew of them being cloaked. Many of which were future Federation races.
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---The future federation would have been very quick to delete any restricted data from the sulibans computers. Without that, they would have lost the ability to maintain their future tech
--- End quote ---
And from their minds? The Suliban engineers and researchers could recreate it from memory (and the 100s perhaps 1000s of working models in their cell ships).
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---As for none of the TNG races having access to such tech, I have to disagree. In TNG, they used holograms to disguise observation posts. And Voyager was able to generate dummy wing men by placing holoprojectors on the hull. It wouldn't be such a strech to assume that they were easily capable of that if they felt the need. The Romulan holoship proved to be something of a dead end because the future federation races did learn to see through it fairly quickly.
--- End quote ---
Voyager I have seen very little of so I don't know of the projected ships. I do know just how flaky the TNG holodeck was. It should have been condemned.
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---As for the Romulan's speed we don't know what kind of endurance it has at those speeds.
--- End quote ---
The holoship led them quite a chase.
Also they knew warp 5 tech well enough to recognize the NX01 having it and didn't feel the need to take it when it was crippled, so presumably they had it in use already.
Which does bring up the suggestion that Archer would be given one of the new warp 7 ships. The NCC1701 was only a warp 8 ship, not much improvement in a century.
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---With the Klingons, don't you think a farmer shooting a Klingon Courier in the chest, and causing an interstellar incident was a disasterous first contact. Archer not only offended Duras, but the Klingon high counsel. He compounded that by escaping from Rura Pethe and getting a bounty on his head.
--- End quote ---
If there is anything the Klingons would recognize and respect it is fighting back from an attack. They would be more likely to praise the farmer (and condemn the warrior incompetent enough to be beaten by a farmer, a descendent of Stephens perhaps), that would not have offended them. The rest was not part of the first contact but later events.
--- Quote from: knightstorm on April 19, 2012, 08:09:56 pm ---With regards to Cochrane, you said it. He was drunk. You're also assuming that Phlox and T'Paul would report the incident to their respective governments. And like I said, its also possible that they might not have identified them as the borg. As for why the ferengi would be so far away from their normal trading grounds, you need only look at the 75th rule of acquisition; the home is where the heart is, but the stars are made of latinum.
--- End quote ---
Phlox, T'Pol, the Andorians, etc, etc.
The problem isn't just the Ferengi being so far but being so far in a relatively primitive ship but in having no one follow for centuries in their much more advanced vessels. Where one would think to go sooner or later others would as well.
Among the problems with 1st Contact are the records. Where are the copilot and engineer for the flight? All the other people there who knew that they had outside aid (even if not identified as futurians that would be an anomoly). Going back to the future with the past changed should have led to a different future UNLESS they travelled between timelines as well as time. Enterprise is clearly on that timeline. TOS and TNG are not.
Geordi as a fan of Cochranes did not know of the attack on the launch site or of outside aid.
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