Topic: Info on 2.5.4.12 cloak vs seeking weapons  (Read 17440 times)

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Lepton1

  • Guest
Cloak Test Results
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2003, 10:46:08 pm »
Courtesy of 3dot10 and myself, cloak testing results for seeking weapons.  I hate long posts so I am going to try to boil this down.

We confirmed two cloak mechanism aspects.  First, the lockon check that is made by this formula we are all arguing over occurs when the cloaker is fuly cloaked and not before.  This was confirmed by drones disappearing all at once when full cloak was reached.  If full cloak is achieved but lock on is retained as per this first check, the seekers undergo a second check of a sort wherein since the loss of lock on has now occured for the targetting ship and seekers wink out one at a time and do not hit the cloaked ship if there is sufficient range for that to occur.

Second, we determined range is the range from ship to ship and not from ship to seeking weapon as lockon maintenance did not occur when the launching ship was at a non-beneficial range for lock on maintenance but the seeking weapon was in a good position when the cloaking ship reached full cloak and speculatively when the seeker would have undergone this check (but see below, range may not matter at all).  These tests were conducted with cloaker moving at speed 1 and drone launcher in range 5-10 bracket which yielded a loss of lockon at this first check.

We used volleys of two drones slow or medium launched simultaneously.  We tested cases mainly where lockon losses should have occurred via the formula in part because these are the important cases and other trials revealed that maintenance of lockon for this check were easy to produce.

In testing this first lockon check by the formula, we basically concerned ourselves with the 5-10 range bracket, over numerous trials at that range at speed 2, the retain threshold outcome should be 1.  6-0-1+0-4=1 leading to loss of lockon. Yet, lock on was maintained in all instances, whether using slow or med drones, approaching or moving away ships.

When speed at this range 5-10 was 1 or below, loss of lock on was assured over many trials.

Second, we varied range while keeping speed constant at 2.  At range brackets 11-15, 16-20, and 31-40,  these should have easily resulted in a loss of lock on at the first lockon check but never did.  In fact, the equation should have resulted in negative numbers which could be a problem in itseld.  The drones did eventually wink out one at a time via the second lock checks that we are all familiar with.  This was confirmed over many trials.

Finally, we added ECM to the equation in the 31-40 bracket speed 2, we applied a one ECM shift and a two ECM shift.  Again, the equation should have been a negative number at this point (6-2-5+0-4=-5) yet lock on was maintained in the first check and drones did eventually wink out one at a time by the second lockon checks.

Our speculative conclusions from these results are the following:

1.  Range is really not being taken into account in the formula.
2.  Speed 2 is actually in the next speed bracket or the speed brackets in general are really not as presented by Firesoul.
3.  ECM is also not being taken into account
4.  There may be some selective use of the formula lockon check such that it is not used at all ranges since the second lock on checks will get all or most of the seekers over long ranges/over time.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

Scipio_66

  • Guest
Re: Info on 2.5.4.12 cloak vs seeking weapons
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2003, 12:15:07 am »
Quote:

Look scippy, get the correct patch then come talk to us.  The whole damn thing changed from .10 to .12.  Jeez.  That's what we have been talking about.  LOL!!  




No, the arguement I've had with Remiak up until now has been which cloak is better, 2.5.3.8 or 2.5.4.12.  I have argued, and still do, that 2.5.4.12 is better than 2.5.3.8 in all circumsances.  (Though I unfortunately used .10 as my model.)

2.5.4.12 is better than 2.5.3.8 in all circumstances.  However, after upgrading from .10 to .12, I concede the cloak still sux.  The claok in .10 was cool.  Oh well.  <sigh>  It took a lot to get me excited about OP.  Now I'm losing it again.  

-S'Cipio the sad  

FireSoul

  • Guest
Re: Info on 2.5.4.12 cloak vs seeking weapons
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2003, 12:37:01 am »
I prefered the cloak in .10 too..
.. but you have to admit that it's too strong.


When the patches for .12 were made, testers had no say in how the retain lockon was being calculated. I adapted to it, and I guess others will adapt too.  

3dot14

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2003, 09:25:08 am »
I can attest to the results of the test.

However, a point was raised about our test subjects. We were both in Prime XCA's. So, does Pirate Stealth ECM (ECM=2) work?


Also more cautions about the results: (I know I repeat myself, but I am doing it for emphasis.)

1.) Taldren only (wisely) described in qualitative terms. David Ferrell NEVER said how it's really calculated... So even at worst, this is a balance change, not a bug.
2.) Firesouls chart was SFB-based. He specifically mentioned it so.
3.) DO NOT let this overshadow the rest of the advantaged 25412 cloak has only 2538. (the damage v. cloak chart works on seekers, and they do blink out. In those tests betwen lepton and I, only ONE missile actually hit me...)
4.) Will glass ever be half full? (and who is drinking from my glass?!!)

EDIT:
Lepton also raises an interestign point:
Maybe when the threshold equation returns negative, the lock on is maintained... This certainly is worthy of further investigation.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 10:58:21 am by 3dot14 »

Lepton1

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2003, 10:02:15 am »
Had the stealth ratings been a factor that would have made loss of lock more likely.  Instead we found it was nearly impossible to get a loss of lock for the first check.

My thinking is now that loss of lock only occurs for a speed of 0 or 1, no matter what the range.  This seems like the next thing that should be tested.

JMM

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2003, 10:45:20 am »
Thanks Scipio for admitting the cloak in 10 rocked, for a while there I thought I was smoking crack. Regardless of how powerful a cloak is, there is always the t-bomb flash, and in the right position any ship can thrash a cloaked rom vessel...  

David Ferrell

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2003, 12:19:15 pm »
Yes the cloak in .10 rocked, because drones and plasmas would *always* lose
their lock, due to a bug.

Speed 80 plasma torpedoes would also rock (for the Roms/Gorn and ISC), but
would it be fair?

Thanks,

Dave  

Lepton1

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2003, 12:38:00 pm »
Hey, Dave.  I am wondering if you have read through this thread and have any comments on how this first lockon check is being resolved.  It seems speed may be the only factor for an initial loss of lock.  Other factors such as range and EW have been suggested but I am not sure testing is bearing that out.  Be glad to hear what you might have to say on this.

David Ferrell

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2003, 01:06:27 pm »
Just did some testing based upon your comments...

I'm really beginning to hate this game!  

Range and Speed internally are both multiplied by 10, I forgot this.  

Thanks,

Dave  

FireSoul

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2003, 01:11:34 pm »
*slaps forehead*
.. no wonder only speed 0 seemed to work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by FireSoul »

Dogmatix!

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2003, 01:31:06 pm »
Quote:

Just did some testing based upon your comments...

I'm really beginning to hate this game!  

Range and Speed internally are both multiplied by 10, I forgot this.  

Thanks,

Dave  




So you will fix?  Purty please?  With fresh gagh on top?

Holocat

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2003, 01:43:18 pm »
I only have one piece of advice, Mr. Ferrell.

Run.

 RUN!

Don't turn your head, don't look back now, JUST RUN!

Dog's already on your tail, and when lepton and remiack get wind, they'll start prowling with the pack as well...

Because you can see it, see it coming, creeping up like a nasty, incurable virus...

Patch 2.5.4.1893289359853234123490312!

Already nipping at the legs, slowing you, weaking your resolve for one last patch...

By this time, there will be five of us left.

Two of us won't be satisfied.

RUN!!!

Holocat.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Holocat »

Holocat

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2003, 01:59:49 pm »
Quick Mr. Ferrell, you're running out of time!

 I can hear them already:

 

 Paaaaaaaatch.   Ppppaaaaaaattch.

The gamers are already gathering,

Holocat.


P.S.  Okay! ok, i'll go get some sleep now;  These posts clearly tell me that i'm becoming facetious.  

Lepton1

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2003, 02:25:58 pm »
Quote:

*slaps forehead*
.. no wonder only speed 0 seemed to work.  




Yes, but speed 1 is working also for loss of lock, while speed 2 (which is in the same speed bracket) is not for any range category.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

SPQR Renegade001

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2003, 02:48:13 pm »
Quote:

Yes, but speed 1 is working also for loss of lock, while speed 2 (which is in the same speed bracket) is not for any range category.




That's because speed 1*10 is speed 10, rather lower on the chart. 2*10 = 20, or "do you realy have power to go that fast under cloak?".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by SPQR Renegade001 »

Lepton1

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2003, 03:11:39 pm »
Yes but if this is the case:

Quote:

First, the Formula:


      Retain Threshhold = Sensor(6) - (EW Defense Shift) - (Range Factor) + (Speed Factor) - 4



Next, some explanations of the components of that formula:


      Retain Threshhold: The number a the person trying to do a retain lock has to match or roll lower with a D6 (6-sided die). DavidF told the testers (I am one) that the dieroll would always be 2. (to make it a notch challenging to the cloaker, I guess)

      EW Defense Shift: Cloaker's defense shift, after the ECM, ECCM and squareroot calculations. (the Defense shift at the bottom left of the screen)

      Range Factor: A value decided on the range between the unit tracking and the cloaked ship.

      Speed Factor: Speed of the cloaked ship.





Now for the tables to figure out the Factors:
Range Factor:


      True Range <=> Range Factor
      0 <=> -1
      1-4 <=> 0
      5-10 <=> 1
      11-15 <=> 2
      16-20 <=> 3
      21-30 <=> 4
      31-40 <=> 5
      41+ <=> 6



Speed Adjustment Factor:


      Maneuver Rate <=> Speed Factor
      0 <=> -2
      1-4 <=> 0
      5-8 <=> 1
      9-12 <=> 2
      13-15 <=> 3
      16-17 <=> 4
      18 <=> 5
      19+ <=> 6




Then speed 1 if multiplied by 10 would make the formula at range 5-10 equal to 3 (6-0-1+2-4=3) and lock on would be maintained but it is not.  I am not convinced this x10 thing is really it since range 5 would become 50 and loss of lock would be almost assured all the time if the above formula is being used.  But hey, what do I know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Lepton1 »

David Ferrell

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2003, 03:38:58 pm »
Daves not here man...  

Corbomite

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2003, 03:56:14 pm »
Quote:

Daves not here man...  




hehehehe.....  

Dogmatix!

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2003, 04:04:19 pm »
Quote:

Quick Mr. Ferrell, you're running out of time!

 I can hear them already:

 

 Paaaaaaaatch.   Ppppaaaaaaattch.

The gamers are already gathering,

Holocat.


P.S.  Okay! ok, i'll go get some sleep now;  These posts clearly tell me that i'm becoming facetious.  





In RE: The above post and the one before...


Freaking hilarious, Holocat...heheheh...made me giggle here at work, drawing raised eyebrows from my nearby co-workers.



Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatch...PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaatch!


OR..perhaps give someone (Khoromag?) the rights to do a few maintenance patches if the esteemed Mr. Ferrell doesn't want to be lavished (?) with more praise for fixing a couple more things...heheh.


 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Dogmatix! »

Dogmatix!

  • Guest
Re: Cloak Test Results
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2003, 04:05:34 pm »
Quote:

Daves not here man...  





Not true!  Not True!  I see you!  heheheh...