Topic: #9  (Read 19702 times)

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Offline Gook

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Re: #9
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2004, 07:00:59 am »
Chuut,

No use having 4 BCH's when 2 of them are worthless, and one is just so-so.

They just hog up space in the yards where a BCF could be  ;)



Still I wouldn't mind having an extra variant based on the old Z-BCH with a power boost, ie losing a drone rack for an extra dizzy.  Be a more effective ship vs plasma races.

As for the Fed BCHs that are crap, I'd like to see them tinkered with so that they might get flown a bit, keep the BCF as the best overall ship but make the others where they could be flown in special roles or vs specific opponents.



Gahhhhhhhhhh HERETIC, BURN him more Dizzies NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo. More Drones or P1s yes!!!

:)


How about a MIRV varaint for Gook then......... ;)

That better respected senior?




How about 4-6 C racks, better than a MIRV.
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: #9
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2004, 07:02:25 am »
Nope 4 C racks is racail flavor for the Orions...we wouldn't want to infringe..... ;D

Offline Gook

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Re: #9
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2004, 07:05:40 am »
Nope 4 C racks is racail flavor for the Orions...we wouldn't want to infringe..... ;D

Says who? Orions racial flavour is the ability to use anyhting not just C racks.
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Offline Cleaven

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Re: #9
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2004, 07:19:20 am »
And there I was thinking it was engine doubling.

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: #9
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2004, 07:33:15 am »
Good point Cleaven but they are not mutually exclusive...... ;)

Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: #9
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2004, 11:32:15 am »
Chuut,

No use having 4 BCH's when 2 of them are worthless, and one is just so-so.

They just hog up space in the yards where a BCF could be  ;)


Still I wouldn't mind having an extra variant based on the old Z-BCH with a power boost, ie losing a drone rack for an extra dizzy.  Be a more effective ship vs plasma races.

As for the Fed BCHs that are crap, I'd like to see them tinkered with so that they might get flown a bit, keep the BCF as the best overall ship but make the others where they could be flown in special roles or vs specific opponents.


Gahhhhhhhhhh HERETIC, BURN him more Dizzies NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo. More Drones or P1s yes!!!

:)

I'd have to agree with Gook here.  The reason the Kzinti have problems with plasma chuckers is because they never had any "traditional" enemies that used plasma.  With map changes in camapign the Kzinti are now facing plasma chuckers so it does make sense that the Kzinti would make a variant to counter these plasma using races.  I really doubt adding more Disrupters is the solution.

 From an economic stand point disrupters are expensive and adding more disrupters to current Kzinti ships is likely to leave them with energy balancing problems (you are switching out a weapon that requires no energy for one that requires 2 pts per turn and can't be "held")

A far more reasonable assumption would be that the Kzinti would swap out some of the P-3 for P-1.  The power requirements on currently built ships would remain the same.. so there would be no need for altering the engines. (assuming you swap 2 P-3's for 1 P-s).

While this improves the Kzinti ships vs plasma races, it creates a slight weakness vs other races. One of the Kzinti strengths is that they retain alot of the combat abilities even while taking damage.  The excess of P-3 absorb a lot of the damage, saving the more important P-1s.  So in combat vs non plasma using races, the Kzinti are likely to loose essential P-1s , not to mention they will be far more suseptable to Miza attacks.

So by switching P-3 to P-1's.. you solve one problem without causing an inbalance vs other races...
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: #9
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2004, 11:33:58 am »
but I can't remember a Freddie or Klinky who picked a standard (for the race) ship loadout, vis-a vis photons/phasers/disruptors.

  Gwarlock

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: #9
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2004, 11:36:46 am »

As for the Fed BCHs that are crap, I'd like to see them tinkered with so that they might get flown a bit, keep the BCF as the best overall ship but make the others where they could be flown in special roles or vs specific opponents.

I'd rather not see this done.  This leads to the slippery-slope the was the AOTK shiplist.

Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: #9
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2004, 11:38:20 am »


So by switching P-3 to P-1's.. you solve one problem without causing an inbalance vs other races...

Does anyone else see this as being a really horrible idea?

Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: #9
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2004, 11:57:14 am »
1. It was Gooks Idea-I was merely explaining the rational of swaping Phaser as oppsed to swaping drone racks for dizzy.

2.  Its not a straight conversion-  You'd have to swap 2 1/2 space P-3 for 1 P-1.  This would give the Kzinti slightly better long range damage while keeping their close range damage the same

3. Not all P-3 would have to be swapped...just swapping enough to add 1 P-1's might be enough.

4. I'm not necessarly for or against the idea... If Kzinti have a hard time VS plasma races.. isn't that what alliances are for?
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Offline Vorcha

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Re: #9
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2004, 12:11:39 pm »
I think all the races could go with an over-haul.  SFB was and is a fabulous game, but following those same rules for years and years has led to glaring weaknesses and strengths in pvp match ups.  We need to set up a team of experts to puzzle thru each race w/ the thought of equalizing each race to increase the "fun" aspect of pvp match ups.  

As example I have been working the ship lists for some time and here are some of my personal changes:

1.  Miraks are power starved adding power helps them, also being solely reliant on drones is too one sided...give them 1 other heavy weapon (besides Disruptors) and only on ships w/o dizzy's.  I've experimented and have had great success increasing power and installing a sing FX arc PPD on select Mirak hulls.  Made them very very tough to go against.

2.  Rom's are great pvp ships, but have too limited an arc of heavie plas, so I stripped them of plas F's and changed their heavy plas to FA and RA firing arcs.  Losing the F's helped their power curve like you can't believe and giving them a rear firing heavy plasma made them also very very tough.  I also drastically increased the cost of cloaking.....making them drop to speed 10 or less when cloaked.

3.  Feds got slightly more power w/ FX photon arcs...this allowed them to fire a full spread of photons in arcs similar to current Klink C7's...made them really fun to fly.  The extra power allowed them to run at speed and easily charge photons and reinforce shields.

4.  Klinks got more power and better arc's on their dizzies on most hulls along w/  phaser upgrades.  P2's became P1's, and a few select ships (Escort Hulls) recieved Gatling's in place of some ph-3's.  W/ the combination of their excellent turn rate...this made them extremely fun in pvp matches.

5.  ISC got better PPD arcs and power upgrades on select models.  They are pretty tough as it is so I did the least w/ this race.

6.  Gorn got increased power and rear firing arcs on thier heavy plasmas similar to Rom's.  

7.  Lyran like the Mirak are power starved, I cured that across all hulls.  That alone made them a force.  In addition, I increased their Dizzy arc's to FX.

Another thing I toyed w/ were fighters.  I balanced (or tried to) the fighters so they had almost exactly the same fire power.  I also changed Carriers to just that...carriers w/ NO offensive fire power (Photons, PPD's, Dizzies, Plasma etc)....but enhanced defensive fire power(ADD"s, Gatlings Tractors etc).  I have always been of the opinion that true CV's are offensive w/ thier fighters and shouldn't be w/ thier ships.  Escorts are then mandatory w. each CV selection...they need protection.  The only exception I made w/ with CA hull Battle carriers like the C7V w/ small numbers of fighters...I left them w/ their heavy weapons.  The psuedo's I changed to a common matrix for all Psuedo races (same weapons etc) and instead of getting 4 or more plas F racks on more expensive upgrades, I increased their shields...making them harder to kill.

Basically I was about de-emphasizing drones, fighters and Psuedo's to take the game back to what I think it should be....a direct fire and plasma game.  Now that was my perfect world game based on my interests...of course everyone of you would want different things changed or left the way they are...hence the suggestion of a think tank of guys who's sole purpose if to balance the ship and fighter lists of the stock and or 3.3 model for OP.  If nothing else...then D2 server campiagns can be at least be losely based on this basic ship list or the rules applied to it.

My 2 cents.  

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: #9
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2004, 12:15:49 pm »


4. I'm not necessarly for or against the idea... If Kzinti have a hard time VS plasma races.. isn't that what alliances are for?

The Kzin need one thing for handling Plasma: practice.  :lol:

Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Gook

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Re: #9
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2004, 12:34:31 pm »


4. I'm not necessarly for or against the idea... If Kzinti have a hard time VS plasma races.. isn't that what alliances are for?

The Kzin need one thing for handling Plasma: practice.  :lol:




Actually I have never been destroyed by any plasma boat, been "roughly" handled a couple of times, but never destroyed. In CW3 we actually had fleets of CCZ's etc running from DFs, quite bizarre. It was after CW3 and the rout of the ISC by the Kzin that the nerfs really started, but that is another story.

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: #9
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2004, 12:38:22 pm »


4. I'm not necessarly for or against the idea... If Kzinti have a hard time VS plasma races.. isn't that what alliances are for?

The Kzin need one thing for handling Plasma: practice.  :lol:




Actually I have never been destroyed by any plasma boat, been "roughly" handled a couple of times, but never destroyed. In CW3 we actually had fleets of CCZ's etc running from DFs, quite bizarre. It was after CW3 and the rout of the ISC by the Kzin that the nerfs really started, but that is another story.



In what way have Kzin ships been nerfed?
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Lepton

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Re: #9
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2004, 01:03:42 pm »
While it seems natural to head into the territory of how to fix things shipwise, I think that is really the wrong direction.  Trying to make Kzin more PvP worthy or plasma races flip faster does not address the base problems of the D2 which for me is a hex-flipping attitude itself.  Back in the days of Starlance, I think some of the most successful players and fleets were Kzin-based so I have no illusion that they can't be effective in PvP.

The motivation to play the D2 has to be more than hex-flipping and the gameplay in it needs to be more than hex-flipping. Of course in many ways it is more than hex-flipping, but what success often boils down to in the D2 is player numbers and number of missions run.  That seems a poor standard for success to me when 90% of those missions are against the AI which makes them most often a fait d'accompli. I don't have a great solution for this, but I think it is really the problem at base.


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Offline Mr.Bad151

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Re: #9
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2004, 01:50:04 pm »
Please forgive my ignorance, not have actually played a SFCII campaign.  I don't really understand what the problem/inbalance is.  Why is the speed in which a race an flip hex's a problem?  Is the problem that the Kzinti are able to start flying DN while the plasma races are stuggling to get out of DD's?

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Offline Gook

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Re: #9
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2004, 04:30:34 pm »
DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

Mr.Bad

Some ships are able to kill AI faster than others, so running missions in hexes in D2 to change a hex from say Fed to Klink requires the Defence value (DV) to be altered. If you win a mission versus the AI the DV alters in your favour. Eventually the hex will flip from Fed to Klink. If some races have ships which "flip" faster (run 2 minute missions to say 4 minute missions), they have an advantage when numbers are equal because they can run many more missions in the same time.
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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: #9
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2004, 07:23:08 pm »
Heck, I ain't been flamed in a while, so here goes:

  My problem isn't with Miraki/Kzin drones at all.  It's the Freds and Klinks who go with the drone boats that rub me the wrong way.  The missile is the Kzin mainstay, but I can't remember a Freddie or Klinky who picked a standard (for the race) ship loadout, vis-a vis photons/phasers/disruptors.  I'm painting with a wide brush, I know.  I know there are pilots out there who play to their race's flavor.  But to only paint the Miraki/Kzin, while ignoring other races droneboats, IMO, will only cause frustration/problems.

Flame away!

Gwarlock



Oh, I see...so the Feds and Klingons should totally ignore integral parts of their SFC2-D2 arsenals to avoid offending your (or others') sensibiities?  ;)


At the very least, this is an unrealistic view.  It's akin to hoping the Hydrans stop using hellbore fighters or hoping it becomes accepted practice that  all PhG and PlasF and G-racks are stripped from the Fed fleet.


Drones are not the sole purview of the Kzin.



And if you can't remember "a Freddie or Klinky who picked a standard (for the race) ship loadout," then I suggest your memory is failing miserably and you should seek medical attention!  :)


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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: #9
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2004, 07:35:23 pm »


So by switching P-3 to P-1's.. you solve one problem without causing an inbalance vs other races...

Does anyone else see this as being a really horrible idea?




<raises hand>


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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: #9
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2004, 07:37:16 pm »
DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

<snip>


None of which are standard practice or even common.


About the only thing I can think of at the moment that is de rigeur  that could be seen as detrimental to droners (from all three races) is the disengagement rule.




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