Topic: The Enterprise Incident-A Vulcan Lied?

[Dash Jones]

Now supposedly a Vulcan cannot lie.  In TOS season 3 Spock is believed by the Romulan commander for this very reason.  He states Kirk is erratic and basically out of his mind.  He states that Kirk has no orders to do as Kirk did...

Yet, we find out that Spock actually knows the orders to go into the Neutral Zone and somehow get aboard the Romulan ships and take a cloaking device.  We also know that he and Kirk have planned it together (but bones was ignorant of it until the plan was already in effect).

So, did Spock word it in such a way that it wasn't exactly a lie, but either a very strong stretching of the truth, OR was he somehow skirting around the issue?

It seems after watching the episode, that this is never explained, leaving it more appearing that Spock, a Vulcan who could not lie, actually did lie, in a very big and obvious blatant lie.  How is this possible?  Especially seeing in some ways it is the crux of the episode.  I thought they'd explain it, but they did not.

[Ravok]

Vulcan's can and do lie. They just choose not to because its not logical.

 There is nothing in their biology that prevents them from doing so. Its a cultural choice.

[Commander La'ra]

vulcans are also very disciplined, and the implication is that he was ordered to take part in the operation.

Given the possible threat the Romulan cloaking device represented to the Federation, the orders would seem eminiently logical.

Never mind the consequences that would have befell the Enterprise had Spock said 'Actually, we're on a spy mission.'

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

Spock is also half human...

[E_Look]

Subcommander T'Pol, Lt. Valeris also lied; one is from the ENT era, i.e., before a renewed societal commitment to Surak's ways and the latter is from TMP, when ostensibly, they are in fuller command of their passions and impulses.  Both were also women...

[J. Carney]

He wasn't lying, Dash. Spock was probably telling the truth...

You know that any orders to DELIBERATELY go into the Romulan Star Empire would constitute an act of war. Starfleet could not, based on the Treaty of Algeron, give any legitimate orders to infringe upon Romulan space.

Spock knew this, and it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he made a necessary leap of logic and decided that the orders were not 'on the record'- such a mission would be a 'black op' and would have no official records or orders.


Just my opinion as to how Spock could 'logic' his way out of this one.

Like they are all saying, a lie is 'illogical' because it is a perversion of the usefullness of the nature of speach. By spreading falsehoods, you are perverting the purpose of speach- i.e. the sharing of information. Sharing false information makes the listener less likely to trust the speaker, and others as a side effect. Therefore, it is illogical to lie.



Personally, I think he lied like an Oriental rug... and rather enjoyed it.

[Alidar Jarok]

Although it has been said that Vulcans cannot lie, the only ones ever to mention this fact are Vulcans

actually, I don't think that is 100% true, but its pretty close.  I think Vulcans avoid lying as part of their philosophy.  However, sometimes they need to do so for a greater good (they try to rationalize it if they can "A Lie? An Error, An exaggeration, etc).

[Rat Boy]

Spock is also half human...

Ding ding ding!  Give Tracey a cookie.

[Commander La'ra]

While he is half-human, he adhere's to Vulcan philosiphy more strictly than most full Vulcans we've seen on Star Trek.  In regards to this particular question, I'd say his heritage is somewhat irrelevant.

J. Carney has a good point, incidentally.  If I remember the dialogue correctly, Spock remarked that Kirk ordered the Enterprise across the Neutral Zone of his own volition and that his behavior had been increasingly erratic.  Since Starfleet could've tell Kirk to 'go across the NZ and get us a cloak', Spock was not technically lying.

On the other hand, Spock seems like an honest soul, and I doubt he'd justify his actions with such BS technicalities.  He'd probably just say his misrepresented himself deliberately for the benefit of Starfleet and the United Federation of Planets.

[The_Joker]

Might I point out that a mistake is being made here that most of the races of Star Trek also make in their assessment of Vulcans.  One which the Vulcan's don't correct, I might add.

It's not true that Vulcan's CAN'T lie.  Vulcan's DON'T lie, unless there is logical reason for it.

[KBF-Angel Slayer]

And, due to that misconception that they CAN't rather than DON'T, when a Vulcan does lie, it is very believable, since they never lie, okay?  Thus, the best liars are those that only lie when it is utterly needed.

[The_Joker]

'zactly   

[J. Carney]

While he is half-human, he adhere's to Vulcan philosiphy more strictly than most full Vulcans we've seen on Star Trek.  In regards to this particular question, I'd say his heritage is somewhat irrelevant.

J. Carney has a good point, incidentally.  If I remember the dialogue correctly, Spock remarked that Kirk ordered the Enterprise across the Neutral Zone of his own volition and that his behavior had been increasingly erratic.  Since Starfleet could've tell Kirk to 'go across the NZ and get us a cloak', Spock was not technically lying.

On the other hand, Spock seems like an honest soul, and I doubt he'd justify his actions with such BS technicalities.  He'd probably just say his misrepresented himself deliberately for the benefit of Starfleet and the United Federation of Planets.

I just thought that something like that would fit into his 'hours, not days' thinking when he used the coded communications in STII:TWoK.

He could lie over the radio for Khan to hear, as long as he had a rule to hide behind- the use of coded transmissions.

Here, he would have the benifit of knowing that there could be no official orders to prove that he was not being totally truthful. Since there was an 'out' for him to use, it was OK to be creative with his facts... but only because it was for the good of his mission.

I don't think that he would use something like this to justify a lie to another person under normal circumstances.

[Lord_Sloth]

Now supposedly a Vulcan cannot lie.  In TOS season 3 Spock is believed by the Romulan commander for this very reason.  He states Kirk is erratic and basically out of his mind.  He states that Kirk has no orders to do as Kirk did...

Vulcan's have vocals and a mind of their own so they can lie. Romulan's lie and they ARE vulcans. They just prefer to live with emotions.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I vaguely recall Spock being called out on the rug for "lying" by Bones...

Spock's response consisted of:  1.  "I did not lie".  2.  That he did exaggerate certain aspects of the truth, making them seem more important than they really were (the actions Kirk took under his "insanity", which was more a play-acting insanity more than real insanity), and that he also omitted certain, key, aspects of the whole truth (such as the fact that, ulimately, Starfleet ordered this operation and that Kirk was really in control of his facilities).

Same think in TWOK when he was called out over the code.  He did not lie, he used a controlled changing of the words that the listener fully understood as the truth, but would sound like a lie to someone who did not know the full situation.  Spock felt that if Kahn understood what the whole discussion meant (including the fact that Spock himself said, "hours will seem like days"), Kahn would be in full possession of the truth and therefore Spock did nothing wrong.  It's not his fault that Kahn is ignorant of obscure Starfleet codes that he forgot to read up on after getting off Ceti Alpha V...