Topic: All you Titan designers, take note: Pocket Books "Design the Titan" contest

[Captain Pierce]

Apparently, Pocket Books is starting a contest at the end of this month to design the USS Titan, which as we should all now by know is the starship that Riker took command of after "Nemesis."  They're starting a series of novels about the Titan and its crew, and the first of these novels will have the full rules of the contest (they will also be available on the Simon & Schuster (parent company of Pocket Books) website starting on March 29.  One important thing to note, since I know this is a multinational community, is that the contest will apparently be open only to residents of the United States and most of Canada (Quebec, for some reason, is excluded).

Here's the link where I got the info from: http://www.trektoday.com/news/080305_03.shtml.

[Dawntreader]

I think WZ should try for it.  His titan is awsome.

[Kaenyne]

Either version that WZ and Azel collaborated on would be wonderful! Think guys---Your design gracing the covers of a series of books that would be in bookstores around the world!  Now THAT's EXPOSURE guys! Get your names out there!

Azel! This has you name ALL OVER IT!!!

[Chris Johnson]

WZ later had his take on Azel's design, creating what he think was a better ideal look for the Titan.  I prefer either the newer or older design.  But it shouldn't matter anyhow, it's not like said Titan-class that would win would be canon.  So even if WZ and Azel submit their design and lose, we can still imagine the Titan as WZ and Azel's if we want.  Or we can imagine it as a Galaxy or Sovereign-class or what not.  To each his/her own when imagining the ideal Trek universe for themselves.

But if WZ and Azel choose to submit their design, I still hope they win.  It's a beautiful design worth winning.

[Rat Boy]

Uh, a word of warning to those already sitting on designs: they'll only accept entries that conforms to the descriptions from the novel.  So, if the novel says that the Titan is fast and sleak, don't send them something fat like the Galaxy.

[OlBuzzard]

This one reason I'm doing a little upgrading on mine personally.

[Chris Johnson]

Uh, a word of warning to those already sitting on designs: they'll only accept entries that conforms to the descriptions from the novel.  So, if the novel says that the Titan is fast and sleak, don't send them something fat like the Galaxy.

I might just go ahead and read old novels I forgot to pick up last decade, considering where Nemesis went with things.  Besides, a Galaxy-class can go fast, and is streamlined in her own way.  I say that's a way to go, despite stereotypings and going with the flows of fanboy-ish looks.  I take it you haven't seen WZ's Mnemosyne-class?  A nice blend of the last three Enterprises in the 24th century, and in my opinion fast and sleek-looking without being too fanboy-ish in the design.

[Wicked Zombie]

I'm not one for bothering with contests or trying to make a profit off a model/design. I don't need a half dozen critics to tell me my stuff is very good or total crap - opinions are opinions, no matter who is giving them.

Besides which, the Titan/Mnemosyne is still Atolm's design, I just modified it. By the slim chance that he does want to enter his work in some contest, he'd probably come up with something new and original that falls in with whatever the description in the book says. While I personally think he'd have a better chance than most, not everyone has the same open mindedness when it comes to his concepts.

In my experience, as far as a Trek design is concerned, most people who think of 'fast and sleek' end up creating something 'skinny and fanboyish' (only one Enterprise comes to mind there).

Odds are, whatever Titan concept is chosen, it'll be some unimpressive design rehash or some fanboy pipe dream that doesn't push anyone's buttons, doesn't stretch the limits, and doesn't carry on any design lineage. Of course, that's a pessimistic (realistic?) viewpoint...

[Darkseid]

One thing that comes to mind is that Novels are not canon.  So does this mean that paramount is making these books canon or would they not except the winning Titan design as a real ship in the Trek universe?

[Chris Johnson]

In any case, it shouldn't be cared about anyway, despite my previous thoughts on pondering about this.  If you ask me, I think that, although WZ had a realistic (yet-pessimistic) view on the outcome of the contest, no matter what happens, it still is in the eye of the beholder.  It's like Pestalence and I not including Enterprise in his (or my) ideal perception of the Trek universe, or how he thinks there's no such thing as "Constitution-class" until the late-2280s where-as I think there was since 2245, being the Enterprise and her sister ships since TOS, even after the drastic 2271 refit, or how I still believe Reman to be a twin Romulan homeworld as anyone and everyone guessed in the 1990s, not as some prison planet with some strange species.  I don't go by official canon, or at least I take some and spit out the rest.
So whether the outcome of the contest is impressive or dull in your view, whether it's fanboyish or not, whether it becomes canon or not, you don't have to force yourself to follow the "Yellow Brick Road" of Trek.  Take a different route if you like!

[Sochin]

Thats real nice North America only, no fans outside of the continental united states apparently. What about the Couragous Class its suitably different and very striking.

[OlBuzzard]

hey Sochin ...  I love the pict. in the siggy

thanks

[Sochin]

trekmods nx01 model and a nasa orbit shot, add a sprinkling of photoshop and bobs your uncle.

[Chris Johnson]

What about the Couragous Class its suitably different and very striking.

Different in some ways, yet the same with the more "fanboyish" looks.  Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful design, but it seems like a hybrid of the Sovereign and Prometheus-class in stylish looks, along with the configuration of the Defiant-class, yet being bigger.  That's how I look at it... A nice fan design, yet reminds me of the Sovereign and Prometheus-class ships mainly.

[Rat Boy]

Besides, the Courageous doesn't seem big enough to fit with the name "Titan."  Based on the excerpt I read in the back of A Time for War, A Time for Peace, the ship has to be at least big enough to have one of the most species-diverse crews in Starfleet.  Remember seeing alien crew members in every other scene in The Motion Picture?  Think that, but in FC-era unis.

[OlBuzzard]

Odds are, whatever Titan concept is chosen, it'll be some unimpressive design rehash or some fanboy pipe dream that doesn't push anyone's buttons, doesn't stretch the limits, and doesn't carry on any design lineage. Of course, that's a pessimistic (realistic?) viewpoint...

goodie ..   that means an old fart like me might stand a chance !

[Rat Boy]

Okay, maybe it's time to start getting worried.  I found out the ship's class name and it's...dorky.  I just don't know how else to describe it.  I think the design that these people will be looking at will be a lot more...different than the Titan designs we've seen already.


That name, by the way, is Luna.  Sounds like some kind of freaky, drug-induced hippy starship.

[Captain Pierce]

Luna is Latin, meaning (IIRC) "moon" or something similar.  Were there hippies in ancient Rome?  (j/k)  I'll admit they could have come up with a cooler name, though... 

Tomorrow's supposed to be the day when the contest rules are available on the website...

[Rat Boy]

Well, either way, the name doesn't conjure up large starships like the Galaxy or the Sovereign.  But, if it is a "moon" series of starships, then its sister ships could be something like Phobos, Io, or Iapetus.

[Darkseid]

Well Luna is a term for moon and Titan is one of Saturn’s moons, then it kinda fits. Although it doesn’t sound as cool as say Sovereign or Galaxy class.  Since we are at this very moment discovering that Titan has oceans much like the Earth, perhaps they will establish that there is a Starfleet Research base located there.

[Chris Johnson]

I thought there was some references to Titan being colonized in TNG already...

Anyhow, I think it's a good name, Luna.  If it's built more as a deep-space exploration Starship like the Galaxy-class, it fits.  And it doesn't have to be "cool" to be good.

[Brezgonne]

Can I point out the irony of tem wting books about a ship that they don't seem to know what it looks like? (unless they have that somewhere and I just missed it)

[Chris Johnson]

One could broadly-interpret descriptions of the ship.  One could make the Titan, based on descriptions, more Intrepid/Galaxy-themed, or one could make her some gigantic Sovereign-class variant.

You can even broadly-interpret something like the Mirror Universe I.S.S. Enterprise-D from Diane Duane's book "Dark Mirror" [TNG] (made in 1993), even with the given descriptions.  Just not as much though, given the basics that had to stay the same.  But the point is, nothing "exact" had been made.  If you never seen the Sovereign-class but had been given a few descriptions, chances are you'd view it more Galaxy-class themed, and then if it visually appears, drawn, on TV as a model, etc.  It will baffle your mind as to how drastically-different it looks.

I guess the authors want some drawing that could be ideal and would best fit the already-given descriptions, something exact they could view, that they could imagine in their minds, that could be some "universal constant", like how canon is.

[Brezgonne]

What *are* the already given descriptions?

[Captain Pierce]

Contest rules and a brief description of the Luna class and its history are up:

http://www.simonsays.com/content/feature.cfm?sid=44&feature_id=2893

Here's some of the highlights:

U.S.S. Titan, NCC-80102, Luna-class. The Titan is a midsize Starfleet vessel, approximately 450 meters in length (larger than the U.S.S. Voyager, smaller than the Enterprise-D), with a crew complement of 350. Titan's hull configuration is comparable to other established Starfleet vessels.

he Luna-class is Starfleet's newest-generation long-range explorer, a starship not built specifically for combat, but like the Constitution-class of the previous century, a vessel designed for a long-term multipurpose mission into uncharted space. Equipped with conventional tactical systems (deflector shields; phasers; quantum torpedoes), Titan also boasts state-of-the-art propulsion and cutting-edge scientific equipment, as well as being a testbed for experimental science tech not yet available on other classes.

The Titan is manned by the most varied multispecies crew in Starfleet history, with humans taking up less than 15% of the 350-member crew. The diversity of the crew is intended to facilitate stories that will explore the ways that beings of different cultures, biologies, psychologies, and physical appearances learn how to work together, or fail to, depending on the circumstances they encounter. Titan has eight shuttlecraft of various sizes.

The ships of the Luna-class are all named for moons in Earth's solar system:

Amalthea
Callisto
Charon
Europa
Galatea
Ganymede
Io
Luna
Oberon
Rhea
Titan
Triton

[OlBuzzard]

Hmmm  ...   more like a well armed science vessel.. ( by that I mean most science vessels have little armament) .. to be moderately armed .... that would be considered a "well armed" science vessel.

I'm not sure If I'm saying that right.  I dont want to give the wrong impression.  Sounds like the hull class would be more like a larger CL or smaller CA then  (something on that order) as far as TNG hull size/class is concerned.

Man ...  as far as size is concerned that is a little disappointing. I dont think it should be much larger than the Sovy ...  but ..  dude ....  to be not too much bigger than the Voyager ..  that is a bit of a let down.

[Rat Boy]

*cough*Letdown*cough*


So, after all these years of single-handedly saving the Federation from the likes of the Borg and sitting next to Zefram Cochrane during First Contact, the best Starfleet could offer William T. Riker is a science vessel, the sort of ship that the bad guys of Trek use for target practice?  At least it's armed; considering the blatant political messages in the last few novels and this ship's description, I was picturing it shooting flower power torpedoes and rainbow phaser beams.

That said, the concept I'm thinking of right now (but can't do, since I have no visual artistic talent) is the anti-Akira, similar in size and shape but a lot less aggressive looking.  And, obviously, a lot less like the NX.


Edit: Nice of them to practically write the entry for the Starship Guide for me in that last section, isn't it?

[OlBuzzard]

No! No ! No! No!  ....

sorry ...  I knew when I put that up it came out all wrong ..

let me try that again ...

Lets say "compared to what we all feel the "Titan" should be ..  the description given above:

Quote
U.S.S. Titan, NCC-80102, Luna-class. The Titan is a midsize Starfleet vessel, approximately 450 meters in length (larger than the U.S.S. Voyager, smaller than the Enterprise-D), with a crew complement of 350. Titan's hull configuration is comparable to other established Starfleet vessels.

he Luna-class is Starfleet's newest-generation long-range explorer, a starship not built specifically for combat, but like the Constitution-class of the previous century, a vessel designed for a long-term multipurpose mission into uncharted space. Equipped with conventional tactical systems (deflector shields; phasers; quantum torpedoes), Titan also boasts state-of-the-art propulsion and cutting-edge scientific equipment, as well as being a testbed for experimental science tech not yet available on other classes.

The Titan is manned by the most varied multispecies crew in Starfleet history, with humans taking up less than 15% of the 350-member crew. The diversity of the crew is intended to facilitate stories that will explore the ways that beings of different cultures, biologies, psychologies, and physical appearances learn how to work together, or fail to, depending on the circumstances they encounter. Titan has eight shuttlecraft of various sizes.

---------

by this description .. it seems to me as a glorified "beefed-up" Science vessel ..   that is with all of the "cutting edge" stuff being only in the "research" or scientific equipment.

By this description  it seems a bit of a let down.  And yes I agree it does seem somewhat out of charactor ...

UNLESS you are watchin Ryker develope in much the same way that his latest CO ...Picard ...  From that stand point ..  there might be reason to see this as Rikers first command.

Just some thoughts ..  kinda hard to say how the paper back industry handles the development of charactors sometimes.

[Rat Boy]

Technically, Buzz, this is his second command.  The Enterprise-D was his first command, so this is like a step backwards for him, like a modern carrier captain being given charge of a frigate.

[Chris Johnson]

I'm not sure If I'm saying that right.  I dont want to give the wrong impression.  Sounds like the hull class would be more like a larger CL or smaller CA then  (something on that order) as far as TNG hull size/class is concerned.

From what we've seen in Star Trek over the years, size shouldn't matter when it comes to weaponry-capability, right?  Remember the Defiant?  Packed a punch yet was one of the smallest starships I've ever seen, just bigger than an Oberth.  Just because it's over 400 meters doesn't mean it's not a CA or CL.  The Akira's a bit shorter in length and yet she can pack a punch as a battlecruiser.  Considering the Titan's description and the armaments given, I'd say she'd be a CA or CC. 
But I wouldn't necessarily call the Titan "a well-armed science vessel".  That may be closer to what an Intrepid-class is.  I wouldn't call the Constitution-class a well-armed science-vessel either.  And considering the classification as an explorer, I wouldn't even call the Galaxy-class a "well-armed science vessel" if you take into account its role.  It's an exploration vessel, not a science vessel.  There's a difference: While the explorer takes on scientific roles, it does so while it wanders around in uncharted territory.  If there's something worthwile and little danger is around, perhaps a science vessel will go after it and study it more while the big boys move further into uncharted territory.

Man ...  as far as size is concerned that is a little disappointing. I dont think it should be much larger than the Sovy ...  but ..  dude ....  to be not too much bigger than the Voyager ..  that is a bit of a let down.

*cough*Letdown*cough*

So, after all these years of single-handedly saving the Federation from the likes of the Borg and sitting next to Zefram Cochrane during First Contact, the best Starfleet could offer William T. Riker is a science vessel, the sort of ship that the bad guys of Trek use for target practice?  At least it's armed; considering the blatant political messages in the last few novels and this ship's description, I was picturing it shooting flower power torpedoes and rainbow phaser beams.

Quoting Bernd Schneider:

Every fan should feel encouraged to include whatever he likes to his personal view of the Star Trek Universe. That's what I'm doing with my personal ship designs, the ASDB and the Starfleet Museum too. I would never want to miss the fan-made stuff all around the planet because they really enrich the universe, no matter if I "believe" in them. I probably can't help those who don't even want to see anything that has not the seal of Paramount on it or the other extreme group, those who don't care about the idea of Star Trek and are turning Starfleet into a military organization with big-gunned warships.

And now let me ask you a question.  Hoping that the both of you read the bolded emphasis on the above quote, are you one of these types of fans?

The Titan's description was obviously different, but not dissapointing.  It's not as big and fanboyish as it would seem, and although might be a letdown for you guys, it hadn't for me.  Titan doesn't sound big if you think of it as a moon.  It's like how Venus doesn't sound like a lovely name if you view it as a planet with harsh, harsh atmospheric conditions.  I really like the fact that the ship wasn't named after mythology, but named after a celestial body.  It's more related to Starfleet's original purpose: Exploration. 
There's no need for Fanboyish Sovereign-esque battlecruisers and most other FC-related ships anymore.  Sure there's some chaos here and there in our block of the galaxy, but we can handle it.  We're not at war, there's no big threat anymore.  The Galaxy-class starships and other exploration cruisers--like the Luna-class Starships--are going back to what Starfleet does best: Exploration.  I like it that way: Star Trek returning back to what it's supposed to truely be.  If we want our daily dose of mindless action, we have SFB and/or SFC for that, no?

(Just a note, if my message seemed harsh against you guys, I'm sorry.  Being insulting wasn't my intention.)

[markyd]

It is certainly a nice way to get recognised..... the Azel design that Wicked Zombie made is an awsome ship / design... not sure if it fits the description tho.... Like WZ said... azel woul probably want to design somthing new.... That is an awsome idea.... another WZ/ Azel combination especially for this... Sounds great to me.... and you have my vote already. 

[Rat Boy]

And now let me ask you a question.  Hoping that the both of you read the bolded emphasis on the above quote, are you one of these types of fans?

If you've been to Bernd's site before, you'd know his politics, know how he has a pathological hatred of the military.  That statement is a veiled stab at anyone with conservative beliefs and ideals, those who believe that Star Trek isn't about blindly exploring the galaxy with reckless abandon, it's more akin to the Age of Sail, venturing off into the unexplored regions of the universe while preparing for dangers that are both unknown and well known.  The Constitutions weren't vessels of pure exploration; they were the Federation's "big stick" in the final frontier, the vessels that were sent in to directly deal with the likes of the Romulans and Klingons whenever they came around to cause trouble.  The Galaxy-class was like this as well.  But, this new ship...this Titan isn't either of those; it's Voyager, or worse, the Grissom, something that doesn't seem like it should be "out there," or according to the back cover of the first novel, shouldn't be the ship sent to Romulus on a mission to stabilize their government.  It'd be like sending a ship from the US Oceanagraphic Society to patrol the waterways of the Persian Gulf.

[wulf111]

personally i think the Reeve would fall nicely into the description of the titan

[Chris Johnson]

But, this new ship...this Titan isn't either of those; it's Voyager, or worse, the Grissom, something that doesn't seem like it should be "out there," or according to the back cover of the first novel, shouldn't be the ship sent to Romulus on a mission to stabilize their government.  It'd be like sending a ship from the US Oceanagraphic Society to patrol the waterways of the Persian Gulf.

I still think a heavy cruiser with a good crew is better than a battleship with a poor crew.  In any case, I think sending the Titan like how it is viewed by the authors is better than the fanboyish warships we all come to "know and love" (aside from myself).  I think the latter would send out a poor message.  The Federation isn't some empire waiting to conquer.  The Titan's a better ship suited for diplomacy than any ship with a hundred arrays, all sorts of photon and quantum torp launchers, and turn-on-dime manuverability, a ship able to easily take out a D'Deridex.  Star Trek shouldn't be your average space combat show where you fight the Romulans this week, Borg the next, Klingons the week after, the Dominion the week after that, etc.  It's not mindless, and neither should the Titan be.

[Sochin]

Rat Boy for gods sake grow up, all the points made by Chris where valid.

General description
The Galaxy class is the result of an ambitious development program at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards. It is the largest and most complex starship built to date. The Galaxy class is primarily designed to replace the aged Ambassador and Oberth classes in research missions. Galaxy-class starships feature a detachable and independently operational saucer section, three shuttlebays and a captain's yacht at the bottom of the saucer.

"SPACE THE FINAL FRONTIER. THESE ARE THE VOYAGES OF THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE, HER FIVE-YEAR MISSION TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATION, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE."

Doesn't that sound a little like exploration rather than kicking seven bells of brown stuff out of everything that moves. Even though you guys are a little distraught about the size of the vessel as Chris said look at the defiant and the Akira they are pure warships therefore don't require the extra mass to house sensors and the rest. I like the idea of a compact vessel makes you think about the design a bit more, and don't criticise I design buildings for a living so iam all to aware of the drawbacks.

I like the idea of the Reeve and I also would like to restress the Courageous as well, being a design development of the Defiant it would fit rather nicely.

[OlBuzzard]

ahhhhh   not sure how I got sucked into this negative blast of junk...  but my point was mearly that I think either extreme ..  is exactly that ...  and extreme.  And its true that this idea of a Feddie ship being just short of defenseless and calling anyone who disagrees as war mongers ..  or overly zealous "fanboish" ..  you know... the usual stuff people throw at ya when they want to be some what assertive.

Sheeesh ...  RB .. I think you are going to one extreme ... and Chris ..  you have made some valid points ..  but to be honest to place me in the same category is a complete turn off to anything else you said .. sorry..  that is totally unwarranted.

Oh ...  and BTW....  most of the people who mess with this modeling stuff know how much criticism was, is and will continue to be leveled at the Defiant for being a "Hollywood Special" ..  in short more of a joke than realistic.  So before you start the "size does not matter" ..  I suggest you take a realistic overview of how others look at the same argument.

Left up to me ..  I would normally agree ...  but since you have thrown my butt into the frying pan ..   

sorry ...

not gonna happen.

[Rat Boy]

There are also other issues I have with the current tone of the Trek lit franchise, wherein past books there were blatant biases and blatant attacks against certain ideals that I and a lot of people (including around here) hold strong to, but we won't get into that here.  This Titan concept (and for once I'm glad that the books are non-canon) reeks of that philosophy.  For all this talk of "fanboyish warships," keep in mind that all Starfleet ships are capable of exploration, from the Intrepid to the Sovereign, even the Defiant.  However, the need to both defend the ship and to defend the Federation must be recognized, a need that this concept doesn't feel like it is addressing, but rather shunning.  While Trek was created by Gene Roddennberry and coached in his ideals, it took the likes of Harve Bennett, Nicholas Meyer, and later Ira Steven Behr to give that universe depth, emotion, and for once a sense of reality.  I can understand a need to get away from the bleaker days of the Dominion War era, but this is overcompensating in the extreme...and forgetting some of the hard lessons learned not just in that fictional world, but our world as well.

[Chris Johnson]

Chris ..  you have made some valid points ..  but to be honest to place me in the same category is a complete turn off to anything else you said .. sorry..  that is totally unwarranted.

Oh ...  and BTW....  most of the people who mess with this modeling stuff know how much criticism was, is and will continue to be leveled at the Defiant for being a "Hollywood Special" ..  in short more of a joke than realistic.  So before you start the "size does not matter" ..  I suggest you take a realistic overview of how others look at the same argument.

Left up to me ..  I would normally agree ...  but since you have thrown my butt into the frying pan ..   

sorry ...

not gonna happen.

Buzz, I apologize for insulting you.  My point though is this: It's Star Trek, not Starfleet Battles/Command, not the Berman/Battle Trek Hour, etc.  A ship like the Titan is perfectly reasonable as a ship of exploration, not a ship of battle.  If you want imperialism/lots of weaponry in starships, try Star Wars and the Galactic Empire.  Or if you want to remain in Star Trek, turn to the Klingons.

This Titan concept (and for once I'm glad that the books are non-canon) reeks of that philosophy.  For all this talk of "fanboyish warships," keep in mind that all Starfleet ships are capable of exploration, from the Intrepid to the Sovereign, even the Defiant.  However, the need to both defend the ship and to defend the Federation must be recognized, a need that this concept doesn't feel like it is addressing, but rather shunning.

It seems you're forgetting there's more-than enough warships to defend the Federation.  Do we really need more warships from here-on in?  Do we really need to equate Starfleet as being the Galactic Empire of Star Trek?

While Trek was created by Gene Roddennberry and coached in his ideals, it took the likes of Harve Bennett, Nicholas Meyer, and later Ira Steven Behr to give that universe depth, emotion, and for once a sense of reality.

Don't forget the much-hated Rick Berman.  Without him, TNG wouldn't have been successful.  People can put new ideas into Star Trek, try and improve it as Gene wished, but I'd rather not have Star Trek's optimism or original feel Gene put into it taken away, and that's what you seem to imply as a positive when you wish the Titan to be a big-arse warship armed with guns.  It's not, and I'm glad for that.   Starfleet shouldn't be warship-happy all the time since the early-2370s.

I can understand a need to get away from the bleaker days of the Dominion War era, but this is overcompensating in the extreme...and forgetting some of the hard lessons learned not just in that fictional world, but our world as well.

The design hasn't been built yet, however.  You're over-exaggerating it.  "Oh no!  One new ship class designed for exploration without the big guns and third or fourth nacelle!  Oh no!  What will we do?!"  Rat Boy, it's not the end of the world.  If the Federation wants to have their borders defended, it's not up to the Luna-class.  We already have the Sovereign, Akira, Defiant, Steamrunner, Sabre, Norway, Prometheus, and many other class of starships to defend 'em.  There's already a plenty of warship-esque class of starships out there for that.  One class of Starship that's built more Gene Roddenberry-envisioned that has power and yet is more-built for exploration won't be the end of the Federation, trust me on this.

[OlBuzzard]

Chris ...

I we agree to a point .. the ship does not need to be "over done" .. 

It kinda depends on "our expectation of the name Titan".. Some see that ship as a huge monster  ( it looks pretty cool ..  but I personally think its over the top.  I'll have to see if I can find that site that has that model ..  several have mentioned it here ...  You probably know which one I'm talking about.

I only respectfully ask that we be careful not to swing the pendulum not too far to the other extreme either.  There are some that do tend to want to class the Federation as weak and anemic ..  etc ..  "passive" if you will.  Personally I believe that while NOT EVERY ship would be armed to the teeth ..  I do believe that after the encouters with the Borg and the Dominion War ...  there would be noticeable improvements in the ability of the Fed ships to defend themselves.

Again I simply ask Chris ..  please do not take these statements as intended to "take you to task" .  I do believe that some where in these discussions often times we can find the truth ...  If we will only look hard enough.  ( that goes for me as much as anyone )

thanks

[Rat Boy]

( it looks pretty cool ..  but I personally think its over the top.  I'll have to see if I can find that site that has that model ..  several have mentioned it here ...  You probably know which one I'm talking about.

Buzz, I much rather preferred the concept that you and Azel developed for it, the sort of neo-Ambassador-class, a cost-effective successor to the Galaxy.  That would have been preferable to the idea outined for the contest.

[Chris Johnson]

It kinda depends on "our expectation of the name Titan"

It also depends on how we envision Star Trek, and how open we are to its ideals, be it original or Ira/Berman-ized.

I only respectfully ask that we be careful not to swing the pendulum not too far to the other extreme either.  There are some that do tend to want to class the Federation as weak and anemic ..  etc ..  "passive" if you will.  Personally I believe that while NOT EVERY ship would be armed to the teeth ..  I do believe that after the encouters with the Borg and the Dominion War ...  there would be noticeable improvements in the ability of the Fed ships to defend themselves.

I thought of the Federation as strong, but not war-like.  Galaxy-class Starships were powerful at their early days (and still are, without a doubt), but were not overdone as they were ships of exploration.  That does not make 'em weak.  There will always be bigger, more-powerful threats out there in the universe, but we don't have to give up the original ideals of Starfleet in order to defend the Federation and arm starships to the teeth all the time. 

I guess we can continue debating using our views/opinions in the debate, or we can simply disagree and get on with it.  I'm not as much of a fan of the Trek that popularized DS9, VGR, and ENT that caused many fan-made warships that seemed better suited for a TNG-themed SFB game than Star Trek.

Buzz, I much rather preferred the concept that you and Azel developed for it, the sort of neo-Ambassador-class, a cost-effective successor to the Galaxy.  That would have been preferable to the idea outined for the contest.

I don't think a class of Starship that had been replaced in main roles could suceed its successor.  And the Ambassador-class, new or old, is 526 meters, much longer (and perhaps bigger in general) than the Luna-class.  If the sketch you mentioned is a "Neo-Ambassador", it might have to be reworked to be smaller if it's going to be a design entry for the Titan.  I believe a class like the Luna-class could be more resource-efficient (I'm still in compliance with Gene's vision.  That includes some issues concerning money that he addressed from time to time) than the Galaxy-class, but considering her description, she could be a tough explorer, but not as long-range capable an explorer as the Galaxy-class might be.

[OlBuzzard]

Ya know Chris .. bud ..  I'm trying despirately to meet ya at least hwlf way ..   but you continue to twist my words into things I have not implicated ..  so I will make this statement .. and move on.  (I am after all still at work)
--------

you miss q'd this ...

It kinda depends on "our expectation of the name Titan"

It also depends on how we envision Star Trek, and how open we are to its ideals, be it original or Ira/Berman-ized.

I reject the idea that interpriting things differently that what you might see as being slanted, misnamed, cannonized,or  "labeled" so as to reduce to the absured.

The idea that everything out side of "Cannon Trek" or more specfically as you have illuded to more than once ..  out side of "Roddenberry"  ( a term for which you are obviously interpriting to an extreme) is also rejected ..  Seems like we have this discussion from time to time.  I will not go over this again.  It is this overly zealous idealism that often squelches the possibilities of genuine productivity and or creative thinking.

For the record ..  I also TOTALLY reject the idea that the TITAN  MUST BE a monsterous ship capable of taking on a Borg cube single handedly  ( yes this is over statement for emphasis ... and should be taken for what it is worth).

Also I had nothing to do with the Azel design that included the "Ambassadorial" flavor to it.  Azel and WZ did both designs taht most accept as the better designs.

in conclusion...

1.  No I'm not mad Chris ..  but you seem preoccupied with finding fault with anything I say ..  dunno why .. unless it as as the afore stated that you seem  overly focused on your definition and intrepritation of the world of Trek ..   attempting to label the rest of us ...  ( sorry to be so out spoken ...  but seem to leave me little choice)

2.  RB ..   take it easy bud ..  if they are making the Titan smaller than what we exepcted ...  we'll just have to see what happens.  Not every ship in the Federation line up is built like the Sovy  ( or bigger ).  That much Chris is right about.  I just wish he would not take the observation so far as to off the rest of us.

3.  Sheesh ...  what ever happened to how I feel about this ..   Dunno ..  I 've spent too much time on everything else !

I will say this ...  according to what I've seen .. my interpritation of the Titan will be reviewed ....  I may come out with a smaller hull design ... MAYBE !

[Captain Pierce]

I don't see this concept of the Titan as being a beefed up science vessel; for one thing, science vessels typically don't mount quantum torpedoes.    I see it as essentially a smaller version of the Galaxy class, presumably without families on board.  There's certainly nothing in the description that suggests that it can't defend itself--or, indeed, that it isn't capable of a little offense as well.   

That said, I was under the impression that the Intrepid class was supposed to already be the "Galaxy Lite" of the Fleet, so I'm not sure why the need would be felt for another smaller Explorer...

[OlBuzzard]

Capt Pierece ..  I tend to agree with your idea ..  it's a question of wheather or not "Pocket Books" sees it that way.

Either way ...  it is good to look at this ....  I'm understandably curious if there will be a difference between Pocket ... and Paramont Pictures

(ducks from incomming books !)

heheh 

( not intended to be argumentive guys ..  but ya have to admit....  that is an interesting thought !)

[Captain Pierce]

Oh, there will almost certainly be disagreement between Paramount and Pocket...    Trust me, if Paramount were to do anything with the Titan, the first thing they'd do would be to throw the design that wins this contest and is used on the book covers right out the window... 

[Chris Johnson]

Oh, there will almost certainly be disagreement between Paramount and Pocket...    Trust me, if Paramount were to do anything with the Titan, the first thing they'd do would be to throw the design that wins this contest and is used on the book covers right out the window... 

They certainly threw the Daedelus-class out the window when they were developing Enterprise back in 2001.

[Rat Boy]

Hey, Buzz, do you still have Azel's sketches of your design on-line somewhere?

[Smiley]

Well I for one kind of like this description, and I am pleased that it's not some ridiculous "bigger, better, faster, stronger" vessel...along the lines of the ideals of a certain super-nation - also known as a "fan-boy" ship.
And so what if a story has a little more in it than shooting everything in sight? Sounds like plot and character development with moral undertones to me! Oh no! - Is that a sin too! Goodness, what is the world coming to?!?

[Rat Boy]

along the lines of the ideals of a certain super-nation - also known as a "fan-boy" ship.

Maybe it's time people started saying what ship they're all vaguely referring to...

[Smiley]

along the lines of the ideals of a certain super-nation - also known as a "fan-boy" ship.

Maybe it's time people started saying what ship they're all vaguely referring to...

I wasn't referring to any ship inparticular, although there was a deliberate subtext. I.e. something that doesn't necessarily blatantly shout out it's meaning, but that which you have to interpret for yourself!

[OlBuzzard]

Actaully RB  I took down most everything to do with the AAC .. the X-CLC and the Titan as well.  ( There seemed to be little interest in them ).

[Chris Johnson]

I don't see this concept of the Titan as being a beefed up science vessel; for one thing, science vessels typically don't mount quantum torpedoes.    I see it as essentially a smaller version of the Galaxy class, presumably without families on board.  There's certainly nothing in the description that suggests that it can't defend itself--or, indeed, that it isn't capable of a little offense as well.   

That said, I was under the impression that the Intrepid class was supposed to already be the "Galaxy Lite" of the Fleet, so I'm not sure why the need would be felt for another smaller Explorer...

The story behind the Luna-class:
The Luna-Class Development Project was initiated in 2369 in response to the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole, and originally conceived as leading a planned Starfleet wave of deep-space exploration in the Gamma Quadrant. The project was spearheaded by Dr. (Commander) Xin Ra-Havreii, a Starfleet theoretical engineer at Utopia Planitia. Field testing on the prototype U.S.S. Luna was under way by 2372 in the Alpha Quadrant, and construction of the fleet was scheduled to begin the following year. Unfortunately, contact with the Dominion and the subsequent outbreak of hostilities mothballed the project indefinitely, as Starfleet redirected its shipbuilding resources to the production of vessels better suited to combat.

Upon the war's end in late 2375, Dr. Ra-Havreii correctly judged that the Federation's cultural psychology would eventually shift back toward its pre-war ideals, and pushed to have the Luna-class revisited as a major step toward resuming Starfleet's mission of peaceful exploration (even though the class would no longer be assigned exclusively to the exploration of the Gamma Quadrant). Construction of an initial fleet of twelve Luna-class vessels was completed by 2379, and the Titan was offered to William T. Riker, one of many command officers eager to put the strife of the last decade behind him.

Considering the storyline, the Sovereign lineage might become rarer by the minute, and ships like the Galaxy-class and styled lineages will come back into the spotlight.  The storyline seems to inspire a Galaxy-class lineage, so I think Pierce hit it right on, in a way.

[Smiley]

When you speak of the design lineage of a vessel, are you speaking in terms of it's external appearance or rather the purpose of the vessel and it's predecessors?

Why can't a more exploration/scientific-themed vessel share in the same design traits as the venerable Sovereign class? It too can be sleek and "sexy" in appearance, like the Sovereign is in my opinion, just not obviously as massive, and hence maybe imposing.

[Chris Johnson]

I was believing both.  Sure, the Sovereign-class could possibly (although that's getting non-canonical) be a design started in the mid-to-late 2360s like the Luna-class, but who is to say the Luna-class won't continue the Galaxy-class design lineage in role and appearence?  Who is to say it would be of the Sovereign lineage?  Or perhaps it could be an entirely different type of lineage.  We might not know until October or November.  All we can do is speculate.  I just believe a Galaxy-class lineage is most-likely for a type of vessel such as this, taking the history of the Luna-class into mind.

Besides, I never liked the Sovereign-class: That Eaves design has "Fanboy" written inside and out, and the modifications to it in Star Trek: Nemesis makes it worse considering the countless torpedo launchers it seems to have.

[Smiley]

All of the designs of vessels seem to follow some kind of trend in appearance and the reasons given or created are usually to allow for some new kind of technological development etc. The huge round saucer era of the Galaxy had it's day (plus all of it's cousin designs based off of it) and then there was the Intrepid; streamlined design, then the Sovereign - maybe it might seem a bit fanboyesque but at least it has only two nacelles! Then the Prometheus (Very fanboyish!) but all of the latest line of ships all seem to be streamlined in shape of saucer, so I would expect that any new vessel, regardless of intended mission or purpose, would share in these design traits - just as every other vessel before it seemed to do.
I would be disappointed if any new official design went backwards in style and time.

[Chris Johnson]

Then you would hate the Enterprise-J.  That is, if you've never seen "Azati Prime" [ENT] or the 2005 Ships of the Line calendar.

I believe the Sovereign-class trend was more of a war trend, as it came in time of war.  And considering the storyline of everyone wanting to hop out of that trend, I think the Sovereign-class trend might fall short in the 2380s and 2390s...

[Rat Boy]

And I was never a fan of the Galaxy design.  The saucer is too disproportionate when compared to the secondary hull, like there was little thought given to aesthetics and balance when they designed.  It very nearly turned me off TNG once the design started showing up in the newspapers.  In fact, I cheered when that pregnant whale was trashed in Generations, one of the few things about that movie worth praising.

[Captain Pierce]

A couple of tidbits from the first novel: Titan has 18 civilians on board, spouses and children of crewmembers; and her 8 shuttlecraft are named Armstrong, Ellington, Gillespie, Holiday, Handy, Biederbecke, Marsalis and /i]Mance.[/i]  Apparently, Riker got to name them all himself.    Armstrong (named after jazz musician Louis, not astronaut Neil) is identified as a Type-11.  In one scene, all 8 shuttles are shuttles are parked on Titan's "primary hangar deck," which also has a runabout parked on it as well.  The term "primary hangar deck" would seem to indicate at least one "secondary hangar deck" on the ship; one would wonder why a shuttle or two wouldn't be parked there as well... 

[Rat Boy]

Well, so much for the Starfleet tradition of naming shuttles after great explorers.

[Smiley]

Do runabouts count as shuttles? I mean, I think that they might not be, but there are certainly shuttles at least as big as runabouts.... And they were named after rivers....

[Chris Johnson]

And I was never a fan of the Galaxy design.  The saucer is too disproportionate when compared to the secondary hull, like there was little thought given to aesthetics and balance when they designed.  It very nearly turned me off TNG once the design started showing up in the newspapers.  In fact, I cheered when that pregnant whale was trashed in Generations, one of the few things about that movie worth praising.

I just can't see the fanboy-ish aspect of this at all.  Perhaps if I was a kid, maybe.  But not now.  I never hated the Galaxy-class.  I liked it.  I'm a fan of it, and of what it represents in the Federation.  When warships came and pleased the many warship-happy Star Trek fans that encouraged "sims/RPGs" revolving around these ships, I sighed.  Well, if there's one safe realm, it's the era of TOS/TMP.  I'm glad I'm a fan of that era of Trek, it certainly doesn't take as bad a bashing as TNG does here.

Well, so much for the Starfleet tradition of naming shuttles after great explorers.

Considering that it's rare for Starfleet to name shuttles, let alone ships after important people in worlds other than Earth, there is a limitation for names unless you expand beyond great explorers.

Smiley, it's debatable as to whether Runabounts count as shuttles or starships.  But they are named after rivers.

[Rat Boy]

Do runabouts count as shuttles? I mean, I think that they might not be, but there are certainly shuttles at least as big as runabouts.... And they were named after rivers....

Runabouts are their own vessels, since they have an NCC registry and a U.S.S. in their official name.

[Rat Boy]

Chris, do yourself a favor and check out the Collector Edition DVD of First Contact and check out the featurette on the concept art.  I found a lot of the preliminary designs for the -E to be hideous*, and even John Eaves' final sketch paled in comparison to the blueprints that Rick Sternbach created for the folks at ILM to use to build the final model.


* = Although there was one bridge concept drawing I found rather interesting and thought would work well for a ship like the Akira.

[Chris Johnson]

I might do that once I get my hands on it.  But keep this in mind: I don't have the typical weapon/hot-rod-loving taste in Starship design that made ships like the Sovereign and Prometheus-class so popular.  Some designs you might find hideous I would find nice-looking, possibly.

[Rat Boy]

The problem with those preliminary designs is that they didn't look like any ship that could have even vaguely fit any Starfleet design fashion.  None of them looked like that whale of a Galaxy and they still managed to look terrible.

[Chris Johnson]

Well, without the help of Eaves, I doubt the Sovereign-class you come to love would've looked like it did.  It could've ended up as a simple "whale-of-a-Starship" you despise.  I don't think it would've made First Contact any less-appealing a movie, in my opinion.  But it had been canonically proven that the Enteprise-D's form, although artistic in some ways, definately followed function.  And in times of battle, it was an effective class of starship.  I couldn't see any reason to trash it, other than--nevermind.  I'd rather not be insulting.

[Rat Boy]

I couldn't see any reason to trash it, other than--nevermind.  I'd rather not be insulting.

No, you did, otherwise you wouldn't have said that.

[Chris Johnson]

Of course, we can argue all we want against the two class of starships and turn it into a flame fest.  It seems I've lit the match, but I guess I'll put it out.  I'm just tired of the Galaxy-class bashing I keep seeing where I go in such subjects, and we're going off-topic anyway, Rat Boy.

[OlBuzzard]

"Chill!"

"He started it!"

"Did not!"

"Did so !"

"Did not !"

"DID SO !"

"DID NOT ! "

"Ugly !"

"UGLIER !"

"UGLIEST !"

"B O Y S !"

 

[ModelsPlease]

Technically, Buzz, this is his second command.  The Enterprise-D was his first command, so this is like a step backwards for him, like a modern carrier captain being given charge of a frigate.

If ya really wanna get technical it's his third. Ryker took command of a Klingon vessel as well, and ordered the Enterprise D to surrender. Don't recall the name of the episode but it was the one with the hull eating parasites.

As for the Titan, I was always one for hoping it was a cool new ship. But more than likely it's a Sovie, Akira or possibly a Prometheus class. But that would be my guess if we had ever seen it in Nemesis. I'm not familiar with the Luna or Nelson classes but I'd love to see what they look like. I also think the Galaxy is not over done at all and my reasons being...Ent D was thrashed by a 20+ y/o BoP. The Galaxy was thrashed by Kamikaze Jem bug ships. I would rather tend to agree in that case Bigger was NOT better. Heck for all we know the Titan could be an Intrepid or Excelsior B ( Lakota ). It's anyone's guess. But....I too love Azel's and WZ renditions of it and they get my vote.

As for Ol'B's ships I for one WANTED  them and I think it's a shame that ya scrapped them.

[F9thRyker]

USS Titan NCC-80102, Luna class starship

http://www.simonsays.com/content/feature.cfm?sid=44&feature_id=2893

If anyone wants to take a shot at it, they get to have their design on the front cover of the first book

Azel, WZ, I know you guys have done nifty Titans- feel like submitting yours? You'd both be in with a good chance, especially if you worked together- WZ makes some kickass ships, and Azel's schematics and design plans are unsurpassed...

[Captain Pierce]

Yeah, that's the thing, MP--nobody knows what it looks like yet, because nobody's won the design contest!    It won't be over until August sometime...

Also, just to be annoying, it won't be on the cover of the first novel--that's already out.  It will be probably be more like the third or fourth...

More tidbits about the design (from that first novel): it has a "forward observation lounge," location unknown.  When it's first mentioned, it seems to be right off the bridge as Ent-D's aft lounge was; but later the people who seemed to walk right off the bridge to get there have to take a turbolift to get back.   ???  Also, it has a "Ten Forward"-ish mess hall/bar/rec deck somewhere.  (Making it the primary rec area seems odd, as the sense of the room I get so far isn't anything along the lines of Main Recreation from TMP...)

It bears repeating, since Ryker has relinked to the contest, that it's open to residents of the US and most of Canada (excluding Quebec) only.  Sorry. 

[Chris Johnson]

I would imagine (on the Enterprise-D) that it's not right next to the bridge, but below, and that one set of doors on the bridge can take you to there, whereas the other way to get through to the conference lounge is somewhere below the bridge, on deck 2, where I believe the lounge is located.  If I interpret "forward observation lounge" correctly, on the Titan (and other Luna-class Starships), it could be facing forward and still be on deck 2, and you might not be able to just simply take entrance #1 on the bridge like you would in the Enterprise-D.

I guess I need to grab the book, although I'm yearning for older ones as I'm less-hesitant to grab 'em first.  I guess it's just the way Berman recently took Trek in both the Pre-TOS and late-late-TNG-eras.  However, I do like the description of the Titan in its words, so I might go ahead and find out stuff on it by getting the books...

[Captain Pierce]

Rick Sternbach's Enterprise-D blueprints (just for the record, I picked them up very cheap at Barnes & Noble once, so I'm not a loser :p ) show the conference lounge on Deck 1, with the only access to them being through that door on the starboard side of the Bridge upper level.