Topic: All you Titan designers, take note: Pocket Books "Design the Titan" contest

[Chris Johnson]

I thought there was some references to Titan being colonized in TNG already...

Anyhow, I think it's a good name, Luna.  If it's built more as a deep-space exploration Starship like the Galaxy-class, it fits.  And it doesn't have to be "cool" to be good.

[Brezgonne]

Can I point out the irony of tem wting books about a ship that they don't seem to know what it looks like? (unless they have that somewhere and I just missed it)

[Chris Johnson]

One could broadly-interpret descriptions of the ship.  One could make the Titan, based on descriptions, more Intrepid/Galaxy-themed, or one could make her some gigantic Sovereign-class variant.

You can even broadly-interpret something like the Mirror Universe I.S.S. Enterprise-D from Diane Duane's book "Dark Mirror" [TNG] (made in 1993), even with the given descriptions.  Just not as much though, given the basics that had to stay the same.  But the point is, nothing "exact" had been made.  If you never seen the Sovereign-class but had been given a few descriptions, chances are you'd view it more Galaxy-class themed, and then if it visually appears, drawn, on TV as a model, etc.  It will baffle your mind as to how drastically-different it looks.

I guess the authors want some drawing that could be ideal and would best fit the already-given descriptions, something exact they could view, that they could imagine in their minds, that could be some "universal constant", like how canon is.

[Brezgonne]

What *are* the already given descriptions?

[Captain Pierce]

Contest rules and a brief description of the Luna class and its history are up:

http://www.simonsays.com/content/feature.cfm?sid=44&feature_id=2893

Here's some of the highlights:

U.S.S. Titan, NCC-80102, Luna-class. The Titan is a midsize Starfleet vessel, approximately 450 meters in length (larger than the U.S.S. Voyager, smaller than the Enterprise-D), with a crew complement of 350. Titan's hull configuration is comparable to other established Starfleet vessels.

he Luna-class is Starfleet's newest-generation long-range explorer, a starship not built specifically for combat, but like the Constitution-class of the previous century, a vessel designed for a long-term multipurpose mission into uncharted space. Equipped with conventional tactical systems (deflector shields; phasers; quantum torpedoes), Titan also boasts state-of-the-art propulsion and cutting-edge scientific equipment, as well as being a testbed for experimental science tech not yet available on other classes.

The Titan is manned by the most varied multispecies crew in Starfleet history, with humans taking up less than 15% of the 350-member crew. The diversity of the crew is intended to facilitate stories that will explore the ways that beings of different cultures, biologies, psychologies, and physical appearances learn how to work together, or fail to, depending on the circumstances they encounter. Titan has eight shuttlecraft of various sizes.

The ships of the Luna-class are all named for moons in Earth's solar system:

Amalthea
Callisto
Charon
Europa
Galatea
Ganymede
Io
Luna
Oberon
Rhea
Titan
Triton

[OlBuzzard]

Hmmm  ...   more like a well armed science vessel.. ( by that I mean most science vessels have little armament) .. to be moderately armed .... that would be considered a "well armed" science vessel.

I'm not sure If I'm saying that right.  I dont want to give the wrong impression.  Sounds like the hull class would be more like a larger CL or smaller CA then  (something on that order) as far as TNG hull size/class is concerned.

Man ...  as far as size is concerned that is a little disappointing. I dont think it should be much larger than the Sovy ...  but ..  dude ....  to be not too much bigger than the Voyager ..  that is a bit of a let down.

[Rat Boy]

*cough*Letdown*cough*


So, after all these years of single-handedly saving the Federation from the likes of the Borg and sitting next to Zefram Cochrane during First Contact, the best Starfleet could offer William T. Riker is a science vessel, the sort of ship that the bad guys of Trek use for target practice?  At least it's armed; considering the blatant political messages in the last few novels and this ship's description, I was picturing it shooting flower power torpedoes and rainbow phaser beams.

That said, the concept I'm thinking of right now (but can't do, since I have no visual artistic talent) is the anti-Akira, similar in size and shape but a lot less aggressive looking.  And, obviously, a lot less like the NX.


Edit: Nice of them to practically write the entry for the Starship Guide for me in that last section, isn't it?

[OlBuzzard]

No! No ! No! No!  ....

sorry ...  I knew when I put that up it came out all wrong ..

let me try that again ...

Lets say "compared to what we all feel the "Titan" should be ..  the description given above:

Quote
U.S.S. Titan, NCC-80102, Luna-class. The Titan is a midsize Starfleet vessel, approximately 450 meters in length (larger than the U.S.S. Voyager, smaller than the Enterprise-D), with a crew complement of 350. Titan's hull configuration is comparable to other established Starfleet vessels.

he Luna-class is Starfleet's newest-generation long-range explorer, a starship not built specifically for combat, but like the Constitution-class of the previous century, a vessel designed for a long-term multipurpose mission into uncharted space. Equipped with conventional tactical systems (deflector shields; phasers; quantum torpedoes), Titan also boasts state-of-the-art propulsion and cutting-edge scientific equipment, as well as being a testbed for experimental science tech not yet available on other classes.

The Titan is manned by the most varied multispecies crew in Starfleet history, with humans taking up less than 15% of the 350-member crew. The diversity of the crew is intended to facilitate stories that will explore the ways that beings of different cultures, biologies, psychologies, and physical appearances learn how to work together, or fail to, depending on the circumstances they encounter. Titan has eight shuttlecraft of various sizes.

---------

by this description .. it seems to me as a glorified "beefed-up" Science vessel ..   that is with all of the "cutting edge" stuff being only in the "research" or scientific equipment.

By this description  it seems a bit of a let down.  And yes I agree it does seem somewhat out of charactor ...

UNLESS you are watchin Ryker develope in much the same way that his latest CO ...Picard ...  From that stand point ..  there might be reason to see this as Rikers first command.

Just some thoughts ..  kinda hard to say how the paper back industry handles the development of charactors sometimes.

[Rat Boy]

Technically, Buzz, this is his second command.  The Enterprise-D was his first command, so this is like a step backwards for him, like a modern carrier captain being given charge of a frigate.

[Chris Johnson]

I'm not sure If I'm saying that right.  I dont want to give the wrong impression.  Sounds like the hull class would be more like a larger CL or smaller CA then  (something on that order) as far as TNG hull size/class is concerned.

From what we've seen in Star Trek over the years, size shouldn't matter when it comes to weaponry-capability, right?  Remember the Defiant?  Packed a punch yet was one of the smallest starships I've ever seen, just bigger than an Oberth.  Just because it's over 400 meters doesn't mean it's not a CA or CL.  The Akira's a bit shorter in length and yet she can pack a punch as a battlecruiser.  Considering the Titan's description and the armaments given, I'd say she'd be a CA or CC. 
But I wouldn't necessarily call the Titan "a well-armed science vessel".  That may be closer to what an Intrepid-class is.  I wouldn't call the Constitution-class a well-armed science-vessel either.  And considering the classification as an explorer, I wouldn't even call the Galaxy-class a "well-armed science vessel" if you take into account its role.  It's an exploration vessel, not a science vessel.  There's a difference: While the explorer takes on scientific roles, it does so while it wanders around in uncharted territory.  If there's something worthwile and little danger is around, perhaps a science vessel will go after it and study it more while the big boys move further into uncharted territory.

Man ...  as far as size is concerned that is a little disappointing. I dont think it should be much larger than the Sovy ...  but ..  dude ....  to be not too much bigger than the Voyager ..  that is a bit of a let down.

*cough*Letdown*cough*

So, after all these years of single-handedly saving the Federation from the likes of the Borg and sitting next to Zefram Cochrane during First Contact, the best Starfleet could offer William T. Riker is a science vessel, the sort of ship that the bad guys of Trek use for target practice?  At least it's armed; considering the blatant political messages in the last few novels and this ship's description, I was picturing it shooting flower power torpedoes and rainbow phaser beams.

Quoting Bernd Schneider:

Every fan should feel encouraged to include whatever he likes to his personal view of the Star Trek Universe. That's what I'm doing with my personal ship designs, the ASDB and the Starfleet Museum too. I would never want to miss the fan-made stuff all around the planet because they really enrich the universe, no matter if I "believe" in them. I probably can't help those who don't even want to see anything that has not the seal of Paramount on it or the other extreme group, those who don't care about the idea of Star Trek and are turning Starfleet into a military organization with big-gunned warships.

And now let me ask you a question.  Hoping that the both of you read the bolded emphasis on the above quote, are you one of these types of fans?

The Titan's description was obviously different, but not dissapointing.  It's not as big and fanboyish as it would seem, and although might be a letdown for you guys, it hadn't for me.  Titan doesn't sound big if you think of it as a moon.  It's like how Venus doesn't sound like a lovely name if you view it as a planet with harsh, harsh atmospheric conditions.  I really like the fact that the ship wasn't named after mythology, but named after a celestial body.  It's more related to Starfleet's original purpose: Exploration. 
There's no need for Fanboyish Sovereign-esque battlecruisers and most other FC-related ships anymore.  Sure there's some chaos here and there in our block of the galaxy, but we can handle it.  We're not at war, there's no big threat anymore.  The Galaxy-class starships and other exploration cruisers--like the Luna-class Starships--are going back to what Starfleet does best: Exploration.  I like it that way: Star Trek returning back to what it's supposed to truely be.  If we want our daily dose of mindless action, we have SFB and/or SFC for that, no?

(Just a note, if my message seemed harsh against you guys, I'm sorry.  Being insulting wasn't my intention.)

[markyd]

It is certainly a nice way to get recognised..... the Azel design that Wicked Zombie made is an awsome ship / design... not sure if it fits the description tho.... Like WZ said... azel woul probably want to design somthing new.... That is an awsome idea.... another WZ/ Azel combination especially for this... Sounds great to me.... and you have my vote already. 

[Rat Boy]

And now let me ask you a question.  Hoping that the both of you read the bolded emphasis on the above quote, are you one of these types of fans?

If you've been to Bernd's site before, you'd know his politics, know how he has a pathological hatred of the military.  That statement is a veiled stab at anyone with conservative beliefs and ideals, those who believe that Star Trek isn't about blindly exploring the galaxy with reckless abandon, it's more akin to the Age of Sail, venturing off into the unexplored regions of the universe while preparing for dangers that are both unknown and well known.  The Constitutions weren't vessels of pure exploration; they were the Federation's "big stick" in the final frontier, the vessels that were sent in to directly deal with the likes of the Romulans and Klingons whenever they came around to cause trouble.  The Galaxy-class was like this as well.  But, this new ship...this Titan isn't either of those; it's Voyager, or worse, the Grissom, something that doesn't seem like it should be "out there," or according to the back cover of the first novel, shouldn't be the ship sent to Romulus on a mission to stabilize their government.  It'd be like sending a ship from the US Oceanagraphic Society to patrol the waterways of the Persian Gulf.

[wulf111]

personally i think the Reeve would fall nicely into the description of the titan

[Chris Johnson]

But, this new ship...this Titan isn't either of those; it's Voyager, or worse, the Grissom, something that doesn't seem like it should be "out there," or according to the back cover of the first novel, shouldn't be the ship sent to Romulus on a mission to stabilize their government.  It'd be like sending a ship from the US Oceanagraphic Society to patrol the waterways of the Persian Gulf.

I still think a heavy cruiser with a good crew is better than a battleship with a poor crew.  In any case, I think sending the Titan like how it is viewed by the authors is better than the fanboyish warships we all come to "know and love" (aside from myself).  I think the latter would send out a poor message.  The Federation isn't some empire waiting to conquer.  The Titan's a better ship suited for diplomacy than any ship with a hundred arrays, all sorts of photon and quantum torp launchers, and turn-on-dime manuverability, a ship able to easily take out a D'Deridex.  Star Trek shouldn't be your average space combat show where you fight the Romulans this week, Borg the next, Klingons the week after, the Dominion the week after that, etc.  It's not mindless, and neither should the Titan be.

[Sochin]

Rat Boy for gods sake grow up, all the points made by Chris where valid.

General description
The Galaxy class is the result of an ambitious development program at Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards. It is the largest and most complex starship built to date. The Galaxy class is primarily designed to replace the aged Ambassador and Oberth classes in research missions. Galaxy-class starships feature a detachable and independently operational saucer section, three shuttlebays and a captain's yacht at the bottom of the saucer.

"SPACE THE FINAL FRONTIER. THESE ARE THE VOYAGES OF THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE, HER FIVE-YEAR MISSION TO EXPLORE STRANGE NEW WORLDS, TO SEEK OUT NEW LIFE AND NEW CIVILIZATION, TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE."

Doesn't that sound a little like exploration rather than kicking seven bells of brown stuff out of everything that moves. Even though you guys are a little distraught about the size of the vessel as Chris said look at the defiant and the Akira they are pure warships therefore don't require the extra mass to house sensors and the rest. I like the idea of a compact vessel makes you think about the design a bit more, and don't criticise I design buildings for a living so iam all to aware of the drawbacks.

I like the idea of the Reeve and I also would like to restress the Courageous as well, being a design development of the Defiant it would fit rather nicely.

[OlBuzzard]

ahhhhh   not sure how I got sucked into this negative blast of junk...  but my point was mearly that I think either extreme ..  is exactly that ...  and extreme.  And its true that this idea of a Feddie ship being just short of defenseless and calling anyone who disagrees as war mongers ..  or overly zealous "fanboish" ..  you know... the usual stuff people throw at ya when they want to be some what assertive.

Sheeesh ...  RB .. I think you are going to one extreme ... and Chris ..  you have made some valid points ..  but to be honest to place me in the same category is a complete turn off to anything else you said .. sorry..  that is totally unwarranted.

Oh ...  and BTW....  most of the people who mess with this modeling stuff know how much criticism was, is and will continue to be leveled at the Defiant for being a "Hollywood Special" ..  in short more of a joke than realistic.  So before you start the "size does not matter" ..  I suggest you take a realistic overview of how others look at the same argument.

Left up to me ..  I would normally agree ...  but since you have thrown my butt into the frying pan ..   

sorry ...

not gonna happen.

[Rat Boy]

There are also other issues I have with the current tone of the Trek lit franchise, wherein past books there were blatant biases and blatant attacks against certain ideals that I and a lot of people (including around here) hold strong to, but we won't get into that here.  This Titan concept (and for once I'm glad that the books are non-canon) reeks of that philosophy.  For all this talk of "fanboyish warships," keep in mind that all Starfleet ships are capable of exploration, from the Intrepid to the Sovereign, even the Defiant.  However, the need to both defend the ship and to defend the Federation must be recognized, a need that this concept doesn't feel like it is addressing, but rather shunning.  While Trek was created by Gene Roddennberry and coached in his ideals, it took the likes of Harve Bennett, Nicholas Meyer, and later Ira Steven Behr to give that universe depth, emotion, and for once a sense of reality.  I can understand a need to get away from the bleaker days of the Dominion War era, but this is overcompensating in the extreme...and forgetting some of the hard lessons learned not just in that fictional world, but our world as well.

[Chris Johnson]

Chris ..  you have made some valid points ..  but to be honest to place me in the same category is a complete turn off to anything else you said .. sorry..  that is totally unwarranted.

Oh ...  and BTW....  most of the people who mess with this modeling stuff know how much criticism was, is and will continue to be leveled at the Defiant for being a "Hollywood Special" ..  in short more of a joke than realistic.  So before you start the "size does not matter" ..  I suggest you take a realistic overview of how others look at the same argument.

Left up to me ..  I would normally agree ...  but since you have thrown my butt into the frying pan ..   

sorry ...

not gonna happen.

Buzz, I apologize for insulting you.  My point though is this: It's Star Trek, not Starfleet Battles/Command, not the Berman/Battle Trek Hour, etc.  A ship like the Titan is perfectly reasonable as a ship of exploration, not a ship of battle.  If you want imperialism/lots of weaponry in starships, try Star Wars and the Galactic Empire.  Or if you want to remain in Star Trek, turn to the Klingons.

This Titan concept (and for once I'm glad that the books are non-canon) reeks of that philosophy.  For all this talk of "fanboyish warships," keep in mind that all Starfleet ships are capable of exploration, from the Intrepid to the Sovereign, even the Defiant.  However, the need to both defend the ship and to defend the Federation must be recognized, a need that this concept doesn't feel like it is addressing, but rather shunning.

It seems you're forgetting there's more-than enough warships to defend the Federation.  Do we really need more warships from here-on in?  Do we really need to equate Starfleet as being the Galactic Empire of Star Trek?

While Trek was created by Gene Roddennberry and coached in his ideals, it took the likes of Harve Bennett, Nicholas Meyer, and later Ira Steven Behr to give that universe depth, emotion, and for once a sense of reality.

Don't forget the much-hated Rick Berman.  Without him, TNG wouldn't have been successful.  People can put new ideas into Star Trek, try and improve it as Gene wished, but I'd rather not have Star Trek's optimism or original feel Gene put into it taken away, and that's what you seem to imply as a positive when you wish the Titan to be a big-arse warship armed with guns.  It's not, and I'm glad for that.   Starfleet shouldn't be warship-happy all the time since the early-2370s.

I can understand a need to get away from the bleaker days of the Dominion War era, but this is overcompensating in the extreme...and forgetting some of the hard lessons learned not just in that fictional world, but our world as well.

The design hasn't been built yet, however.  You're over-exaggerating it.  "Oh no!  One new ship class designed for exploration without the big guns and third or fourth nacelle!  Oh no!  What will we do?!"  Rat Boy, it's not the end of the world.  If the Federation wants to have their borders defended, it's not up to the Luna-class.  We already have the Sovereign, Akira, Defiant, Steamrunner, Sabre, Norway, Prometheus, and many other class of starships to defend 'em.  There's already a plenty of warship-esque class of starships out there for that.  One class of Starship that's built more Gene Roddenberry-envisioned that has power and yet is more-built for exploration won't be the end of the Federation, trust me on this.

[OlBuzzard]

Chris ...

I we agree to a point .. the ship does not need to be "over done" .. 

It kinda depends on "our expectation of the name Titan".. Some see that ship as a huge monster  ( it looks pretty cool ..  but I personally think its over the top.  I'll have to see if I can find that site that has that model ..  several have mentioned it here ...  You probably know which one I'm talking about.

I only respectfully ask that we be careful not to swing the pendulum not too far to the other extreme either.  There are some that do tend to want to class the Federation as weak and anemic ..  etc ..  "passive" if you will.  Personally I believe that while NOT EVERY ship would be armed to the teeth ..  I do believe that after the encouters with the Borg and the Dominion War ...  there would be noticeable improvements in the ability of the Fed ships to defend themselves.

Again I simply ask Chris ..  please do not take these statements as intended to "take you to task" .  I do believe that some where in these discussions often times we can find the truth ...  If we will only look hard enough.  ( that goes for me as much as anyone )

thanks

[Rat Boy]

( it looks pretty cool ..  but I personally think its over the top.  I'll have to see if I can find that site that has that model ..  several have mentioned it here ...  You probably know which one I'm talking about.

Buzz, I much rather preferred the concept that you and Azel developed for it, the sort of neo-Ambassador-class, a cost-effective successor to the Galaxy.  That would have been preferable to the idea outined for the contest.