Topic: They are finally doing it! making terraforming plants for mars!

[Stormbringer]

Bacterial genes could put plants on Mars

http://www.newscientistspace.com/article/dn8159-bacterial-genes-could-put-plants-on-mars.html


17:33 14 October 2005
NewScientist.com news service
Kelly Young
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 Biologists have embarked on a project to engineer plants that could withstand the harsh environment of Mars, using genes from hardy bacteria that thrive around deep-sea vents on Earth.

It is one of the schemes given further funding by the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts, which promotes futuristic ideas on the leading edge of innovation.

Humans would need oxygen, food and some form of carbon dioxide removal system to live on Mars. In theory, this could be achieved using plants, and it would be less expensive than constructing habitats to simulate the Earth.

But those plants would need to be able to cope with the stress of living in the extreme temperatures of Mars, and the planet’s higher radiation levels. So Wendy Boss and Amy Grunden at North Carolina State University in Raleigh, US, are examining whether plants could be altered by harnessing micro-organisms that live in extreme environments on Earth.

Super stressful
In plants, environmental stresses such as temperature extremes, drought or too much light, lead them to produce negatively charged oxygen molecules called superoxides. These are toxic and can harm the plant if they build up to a high level.

All plants have ways to mop up with superoxides. But the researchers believe the methods used by “extremophiles”, such as a bacteria called Pyrococcus furiosus, may be even better.

P. furiosus bacteria thrive near deep-sea vents, where very hot water jets out of the ocean floor. But they can also cope when they are driven into colder waters by ocean currents. This means that, unlike plants, their detoxification mechanism works over a huge temperature range, similar to that on Mars.

“If we could introduce genes from extremophiles that would help get rid of reactive oxygen species, that would help prime the plant for dealing with extreme environmental conditions,” says Grunden.

Arctic chill
At the moment, researchers have confined their work to cell cultures and have shown that when plant cells express the P. furiosus gene, they can withstand higher temperatures.

They aim to move on to the arabidopsis plant and try out more genes from P. furiosus. They will also examine the potential of genes from a bacterium that prefers the Arctic chill. Ultimately they hope to produce genetically modified space crops.

Four other concepts also received more NIAC funding in the latest round:

• A "star-shade" to enable a space telescope to see new worlds

• A deep-field infrared observatory to be sited near the Moon's pole

• A laser-trapped mirror for a large space telescope

• Microbots for exploring other planets

[prometheus]

I'll believe it once they've terraformed Glasgow... 

[Nemesis]

I'll believe it once they've terraformed Glasgow... 

It was terraformed.  Unfortunately the Glaswegian home world is not like Earth.

[prometheus]

I'll believe it once they've terraformed Glasgow... 

It was terraformed.  Unfortunately the Glaswegian home world is not like Earth.

You better believe it... 

[prometheus]

Humans would need oxygen, food and some form of carbon dioxide removal system to live on Mars. In theory, this could be achieved using plants, and it would be less expensive than constructing habitats to simulate the Earth.

On a more serious note, if they plan to use these plants to create breathable martian air, how do they plan to create Van Allen belts to stop the solar wind from blowing the synthetic atmosphere into space?

[Nemesis]

Billions of undesired AOL cds.

[Stormbringer]

Humans would need oxygen, food and some form of carbon dioxide removal system to live on Mars. In theory, this could be achieved using plants, and it would be less expensive than constructing habitats to simulate the Earth.

On a more serious note, if they plan to use these plants to create breathable martian air, how do they plan to create Van Allen belts to stop the solar wind from blowing the synthetic atmosphere into space?

it is estimated it would take 16 million years for any breathable atmosphere to be "blown" away at the boundary layer. That assumes it is not augmented to replenish it. that's a heck of a long time.

[prometheus]

Humans would need oxygen, food and some form of carbon dioxide removal system to live on Mars. In theory, this could be achieved using plants, and it would be less expensive than constructing habitats to simulate the Earth.

On a more serious note, if they plan to use these plants to create breathable martian air, how do they plan to create Van Allen belts to stop the solar wind from blowing the synthetic atmosphere into space?

it is estimated it would take 16 million years for any breathable atmosphere to be "blown" away at the boundary layer. That assumes it is not augmented to replenish it. that's a heck of a long time.

What's the down with atmospheric density?  How long would it take to create and atmosphere of 1 Bar?

[Stormbringer]

That would depend on the method used to create it. people who speak of terraforming say at least a generation to 300 or so years. But they use conservative estimates based on "conservative" technology speculation.

[Nemesis]

One thing that many people don't consider is that Mars becomes much easier to colonize with a few PSI of air pressure even if that air is non breathable.  An outside air of 3 psi of CO₂ means that you could go out with just an air tank.  It also means that an airleak would be slower and less catastropic.   Temperatures would change more slowly between night and day and between seasons.  Flight and aerobraking of spacecraft would also be easier.

[Stormbringer]

One thing that many people don't consider is that Mars becomes much easier to colonize with a few PSI of air pressure even if that air is non breathable.  An outside air of 3 psi of CO₂ means that you could go out with just an air tank.  It also means that an airleak would be slower and less catastropic.   Temperatures would change more slowly between night and day and between seasons.  Flight and aerobraking of spacecraft would also be easier.

Excellent point! you are absolutely right about the facts and about most people not thinking about that.

[prometheus]

One thing that many people don't consider is that Mars becomes much easier to colonize with a few PSI of air pressure even if that air is non breathable.  An outside air of 3 psi of CO₂ means that you could go out with just an air tank.  It also means that an airleak would be slower and less catastropic.   Temperatures would change more slowly between night and day and between seasons.  Flight and aerobraking of spacecraft would also be easier.

I agree...  Getting enough pressure so you could go outside without your blood boiling would definitely make mobility easier since you wouldn't require a cumbersome pressurized suit... 

One drawback in this thoery I can see is that plants don't actually create gas out of (bad pun) thin air as such, they merely change one gas into another, so I don't see how plants are going to increase the pressure of the martian atmosphere...  Gas would have to be shipped to Mars, or some way would have to be found to obtain gas from the Martian ground... 

[Nemesis]

One drawback in this thoery I can see is that plants don't actually create gas out of (bad pun) thin air as such, they merely change one gas into another, so I don't see how plants are going to increase the pressure of the martian atmosphere...  Gas would have to be shipped to Mars, or some way would have to be found to obtain gas from the Martian ground... 

In theory there is a huge amount of CO₂ absorbed into the rocks and sand of Mars.  Raise the temperature even a little and the CO₂ begins to come out.  As the CO₂ is released the green house effect increases from the released gas the temperature goes up causing the release of even more CO₂. 

Just nudge one comet into orbit and toss it down at the planet in junks with a magnetic catapault.  That would let you build up the atmospheric volume and add the key green house effect perhaps pushing Mars over the limit to make CO₂ release self sustaining.

[Stormbringer]

plants can get some of their gas that is bound in the soil. but these plants will have bacteria genes and as you know bacteria do many different interesting things.

[Nemesis]

plants can get some of their gas that is bound in the soil. but these plants will have bacteria genes and as you know bacteria do many different interesting things.

Including double their numbers every 20 minutes if in a benign environment.  Designer CO₂ releasing bacteria that find the current Mars to be an Eden and live in CO₂ containing rocks.. 

[prometheus]

plants can get some of their gas that is bound in the soil. but these plants will have bacteria genes and as you know bacteria do many different interesting things.

Including double their numbers every 20 minutes if in a benign environment.  Designer CO₂ releasing bacteria that find the current Mars to be an Eden and live in CO₂ containing rocks.. 

The 20 minutes figure is at 37 Celsius, they had us do that experiment at University, but an interesting line of thought all the same...  If they could get the numbers to double at all on Mars in a reasonable frame of time, we shouldn't have long to wait for large amounts of bacteria to exist...

It would be an interesting experiment, to do this to a planet, and come back and see what kind of stuff was going on in three or four billion years...

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

Without a magnetic field, building up the atmosphere would be pointless because the solar wind would errode it. Many scientist believe that Mars once had a dense atmosphere, but that it lost most of its magnetic field as the planetary core cooled, and the atmosphere simply "blew away".

[Stormbringer]

That erosion took 16 *million* years.

[Lepton]

Set off a nuke in the planet core???

[prometheus]

Without a magnetic field, building up the atmosphere would be pointless because the solar wind would errode it. Many scientist believe that Mars once had a dense atmosphere, but that it lost most of its magnetic field as the planetary core cooled, and the atmosphere simply "blew away".

This picture is incomplete...  Venus doesn't have a magnetic field and it's atmosphere is much denser than ours, despite it being ravaged even more harshly by the solar wind...

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

Without a magnetic field, building up the atmosphere would be pointless because the solar wind would errode it. Many scientist believe that Mars once had a dense atmosphere, but that it lost most of its magnetic field as the planetary core cooled, and the atmosphere simply "blew away".

This picture is incomplete...  Venus doesn't have a magnetic field and it's atmosphere is much denser than ours, despite it being ravaged even more harshly by the solar wind...

But Venus has protective properties that Mars doesnt.

http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/personnel/russell/papers/interact_solwind/

Unlike the Earth, Venus's ionosphere, not a magnetosphere deflects the solar wind flow However, as on the Earth, this deflection is accomplished with the formation of a bow shock, which heats and compresses the solar wind flow The shock is both closer to the planet and weaker than would be expected for an ideal gas dynamic interaction with a perfectly reflecting obstacle. The ionized flow of the magnetosheath can interact directly with the neutral atmosphere through charge exchange and photoionization. The former process removes momentum from the flow; both processes add mass to the solar wind, since the high altitude neutral atmosphere is mainly hot oxygen, not hydrogen. Finally, Venus, like Earth, has a magnetotail but not for the same reason. The mass loading of the flow in the magnetosheath slows the transport of magnetic flux tubes past the planet, while the ends of the tubes continue to travel rapidly in the solar wind. Thus the planet accretes interplanetary magnetic flux. This process is the dominant source for the magnetotail flux, not unipolar induction, although the latter process is present at least when the solar wind dynamic pressure is high. On the whole, the solar wind interaction with Venus is more comet-like than Earth-like.

[Stormbringer]

Set off a nuke in the planet core???

perhaps put abreeder reactor of some sort there (a geo reactor) since much of our cores temperature is attributed to radioactive elements therein.

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

That erosion took 16 *million* years.

The cooler the core got the weaker the magnetic field. At first it was probably a very slow loss that accelerated over time. Even if we could rebuild the atmosphere the process of erosion would be much, much faster.

[Stormbringer]

even if the field blinked off instantly it would take 16 million years based upon gravity, random motion at the boundary layer and the collision probability. if the field lingered even weakening it would have taken longer.

[prometheus]

Without a magnetic field, building up the atmosphere would be pointless because the solar wind would errode it. Many scientist believe that Mars once had a dense atmosphere, but that it lost most of its magnetic field as the planetary core cooled, and the atmosphere simply "blew away".

This picture is incomplete...  Venus doesn't have a magnetic field and it's atmosphere is much denser than ours, despite it being ravaged even more harshly by the solar wind...

But Venus has protective properties that Mars doesnt.

http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/personnel/russell/papers/interact_solwind/

Unlike the Earth, Venus's ionosphere, not a magnetosphere deflects the solar wind flow However, as on the Earth, this deflection is accomplished with the formation of a bow shock, which heats and compresses the solar wind flow The shock is both closer to the planet and weaker than would be expected for an ideal gas dynamic interaction with a perfectly reflecting obstacle. The ionized flow of the magnetosheath can interact directly with the neutral atmosphere through charge exchange and photoionization. The former process removes momentum from the flow; both processes add mass to the solar wind, since the high altitude neutral atmosphere is mainly hot oxygen, not hydrogen. Finally, Venus, like Earth, has a magnetotail but not for the same reason. The mass loading of the flow in the magnetosheath slows the transport of magnetic flux tubes past the planet, while the ends of the tubes continue to travel rapidly in the solar wind. Thus the planet accretes interplanetary magnetic flux. This process is the dominant source for the magnetotail flux, not unipolar induction, although the latter process is present at least when the solar wind dynamic pressure is high. On the whole, the solar wind interaction with Venus is more comet-like than Earth-like.

Agreed, but either Venus or Earth's approach to protecting it's atmosphere seems technically out of our depth to replicate on Mars.  What I was wondering is whether we can replenish the Maritian atmosphere faster than it is being stripped away...

[Stormbringer]

if we increased Mar's diameter the pressure at the core would increase and so would it's temperature. another way is to inject radioactive materials.

[prometheus]

We'd need a hell of a lot of material to increase Mars diameter...

[Stormbringer]

We'd need a hell of a lot of material to increase Mars diameter...

we have the kuiper objects, asteroid belt and Oort cloud/trans-pluto objects.

[prometheus]

We'd need a hell of a lot of material to increase Mars diameter...

we have the kuiper objects, asteroid belt and Oort cloud/trans-pluto objects.

There could be some useful stuff out there, water being chief among it... A habitable Mars would need oceans...

[Stormbringer]

True and a horde of self replicating mini probes that gather the stuff and shepherd it back to Mars where another horde drops it on Mars' surface could do it in a reasonable time scale.

[Nemesis]

even if the field blinked off instantly it would take 16 million years based upon gravity, random motion at the boundary layer and the collision probability. if the field lingered even weakening it would have taken longer.

Version 1

1/ Move some asteroids to Mars - Sun #1 Lagrange point.

2/ Build a power station / construction station there.

3/ Using asteroids for raw materials build a super conducting web

4/ Super conducting web creates magnetic shield for  planet.

Version 2

1/ Move some asteroids to Mars geosynchronous orbit

2/ Build a power station / construction station there.

3/ Using asteroids for raw materials build a super conducting web circling the planet

4/ Super conducting web creates magnetic shield for  planet.

[Stormbringer]

I meant it would take 16 million years for the oxygen to escape Mars' gravity field based on calculations provided by your friendly neighborhood DeathMerchant.

[Nemesis]

I meant it would take 16 million years for the oxygen to escape Mars' gravity field based on calculations provided by your friendly neighborhood DeathMerchant.

I was under the impression from previous sources (and postings) that part of that escape was driven by the particles in the solar wind that Earths magnetic field protects us from. 

I could provide a more "exotic" means of giving Mars a magnetic field  by changing the core of Mars. 

[Stormbringer]

I meant it would take 16 million years for the oxygen to escape Mars' gravity field based on calculations provided by your friendly neighborhood DeathMerchant.

I was under the impression from previous sources (and postings) that part of that escape was driven by the particles in the solar wind that Earths magnetic field protects us from. 

I could provide a more "exotic" means of giving Mars a magnetic field  by changing the core of Mars. 

Indeed it is. You see; there is a boundary layer at the edge of the atmosphere where random motion and collisions with solar wind can knock a molecule of oxygen out of the gravity well. over time almost all of the oxygen is knocked out this way but the magnetic field redirects the oxygen back down and deflects the solar wind so that the colisions are much rarer. So the magnetic field does almost totally stop erosion of the atmosphere. so would a stronger gravity field.