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[FPF-DieHard]

Hexx said something very enlightning in his most recent bi-weekly resignation speach, it just goes to show that occasionally a good though can come from a small mind:


. . .over the last severs it's become all about
getting the best 3 players together with the best ships and then jumping players that you outnumber and or outgun to drive them off/kill htem.
Oh and then complaing when the other guys do it to you.
Flown for both "coalition" and "Alliance" seen it form both sides, in equal intensity.

He is absolutely right, I myself guilty of doing the above.   I don't think any finger pointing is needed, it's the nature of the game.  Some of us, including myself, take this game too seriously.   There is nothing wrong with the competitive spirit, it's what makes America great and Canada, um . . . .

Anyway, I like the disengament rule.   I like that PvP actually has some effrect on the map and the overall strategic outcome of the server.   But I have to admit that there have been some negative spill-over effects that I for the life of me cannot figure out how to remedy.

- Nobody flies alone:  I love fleet engagements, they are a lot of fun.   They were more fun when they were the exception and not the rulle.  I miss the days of the 1v1 BCF/C7, CLC/D5L,  D7C/CC+ fights which don't happen often enough.  Iv1 only happen on accident these days or if wingmen drop.

- Jumping people 2v1 and 3v1 is a best practice.  D2 is a came about controlling hexes, that's pretty much it, nothing deeper.   Whatever you can do to control a hex should be done if you are playing to win (even if you don't take it seriously, everyone is playing to be competitive, ever wonder why nobody plays on "fun" servers?).  Kicking an enemy out of a hex in the quickest manner is best for your side.   Jumping frigs in a DN based fleet is a very good way to kick them out of a hexx, but is it really very sportsman like?  Is this really what we want the game to be?    This is too much chess, not enough bar-room brawl.

I'm curious as to others thoughts, am I wrong in think the above is a problem?  If i'm right, what options do we have to make it better?

Yes, I'm actually asking for people's opinions   

[Dfly]

I believe one of the ways to help has already been started.  This server you can directly challenge 1v1 or other numbers(you could on other servers, but to be flown only on map.  Now we can do it via GSA or IP for points.  It may not effect a hex, but it brings back a lot of the fun practice, without necessarily costing the dead pilots a mess of points. 

Flying all PvP on map only, in uberships only, limits nearly all matches to the nutters as they would be the only ones to afford the ship, and the first to afford it a second time.  We dont have that problem on this server, and there is not a single pilot on my team who has logged any complaint.  I remember several such complaints over time in other servers that used the top-line shiplists for battles.  I am in no way saying they weren't fun, or didn't have their place, only mentioning an opinion.

I hope Hexx is willing and able to come back as he has a lot of fresh ideas that, as we can see, have good merit.

[Bonk]

Hmmm, this fire needs some gas...

. . .over the last severs it's become all about
getting the best 3 players together with the best ships and then jumping players that you outnumber and or outgun to drive them off/kill htem.
Oh and then complaing when the other guys do it to you.
Flown for both "coalition" and "Alliance" seen it form both sides, in equal intensity.

Ive said it many times and I'll continue saying it, the disengagement rule must go. People can argue that is is necessary till they are blue in the face, i still don't buy it. I won't repeat myself any more that that, except to say that its only in recent years that it is seen to be necessary, we all got along just fine without it for ages, and had more players before it was introduced... coincidence? I think not... 

One way to improve the situation is to remove all gang-up missions. I never put ambush, scout etc on my servers anymore for this very reason. All dynaverse missions should draft 3vs3 if that's what's present in the hex. 2vs1 missions defeat the prupose of flying with a wing and gives the impression of drafting issues for the less experienced players.

[Lepton]

I'm sorry, are there 2v1 missions on KCW?  If so, that is bleep, expletive, deleted.  What kind of hooey is that on a server with PvP victory points?  If there aren't, forgive the outburst.

[Bonk]

I'm sorry, are there 2v1 missions on KCW?  If so, that is bleep, expletive, deleted.  What kind of hooey is that on a server with PvP victory points?  If there aren't, forgive the outburst.

There are not, to my knowledge. I was speaking in general. I have not put the ambush, scout or scan missions in a server installer for some time now.

[762_XC]

Killing the disengagement rule will kill D2. No one will fly except the Mirak.

We need less mind-numbing hex flipping chores, not more.

I noticed something that started to pick up more on SGO5: people were calling each other out for PvP more, even without formal challenge rules.

Having flown for both sides, I have heard the same thing from both, and more of it lately. People are getting bored running missions over and over and over. PvP is fun. Hex flipping is work.

[Bonk]

Hehehe, thought you'd like that t00l...    I won't argue with ya, its clear we have differing views on this and have been over it a thousand times.

DNs vs DDs ≠ fun PvP.

I think our views differ on this because you're usually in the DN and I'm usually in the DD. 

edit: OK, I can't resist... the Mirak arguement just does not hold water on a server like KCW now does it?

[Dfly]

Hehehe, thought you'd like that t00l...    I won't argue with ya, its clear we have differing views on this and have been over it a thousand times.

DNs vs DDs <> fun PvP.

This is why I , and it looks like many others according to how many are on the KCW server, love the smaller more balanced shiplist.  It cant have the DNvsDD problems and the ships are comparable.

[Father Ted]

I've got a few beers in me, so I feel like sounding off.

I slightly disagree with T00l that hex flipping is work, it's part of the game and some of us do it because we like the strategic angle. But I do agree that getting rid of the disengagement rule is not the answer. One of the reasons KCW has been such a blast is that there are no D5D's or other droners. But you can't eliminate them altogether as to do so would be to eliminate the Kzintis, which I don't think anyone really wants.

I know the Holy Grail is SQL, but has anybody tried a true OoB server without it? Klink production of D5D's never amounted to more than 20% of all D5 production, and if we looked hard enough through all the SFB books, I'm sure you'd find similar numbers for Z-MDC and F-NCD production. We've lived long enough with limited DN and BCH numbers, and we've neutered and restricted the escorts. Why not try the same with other specialty ships? D6D's, maulers, etc. were never meant to fly alone, but were reserved for planet and base assaults. Let's get the Kitties, Klinks, and some Feds out of those drone boats and make them fly a regular line ship.

[Lepton]

Music to my ears.

[FPF-DieHard]

I believe one of the ways to help has already been started.  This server you can directly challenge 1v1 or other numbers(you could on other servers, but to be flown only on map.  Now we can do it via GSA or IP for points.  It may not effect a hex, but it brings back a lot of the fun practice, without necessarily costing the dead pilots a mess of points. 

Flying all PvP on map only, in uberships only, limits nearly all matches to the nutters as they would be the only ones to afford the ship, and the first to afford it a second time.  We dont have that problem on this server, and there is not a single pilot on my team who has logged any complaint.  I remember several such complaints over time in other servers that used the top-line shiplists for battles.  I am in no way saying they weren't fun, or didn't have their place, only mentioning an opinion.

I hope Hexx is willing and able to come back as he has a lot of fresh ideas that, as we can see, have good merit.

The challenges only really work ina KCW type setup.   Let's be "realistic" here, 2 starship captains arranging a duel in open space  in not going to happen in a "real" war.  It just doesn't make any sense though it works in KCW because of the TNGish klingon aspect of bushido and stuff like that.

I'm very bored on KCW, got bored after the first 3 days.  I'm in a PvP house in the middle of nowhere, only fights were reallt got into were challenges which after a while became meaningless.   D2 is a game about strategic objectives, take away the strategic objectives and the PvP becomes meaningless because it is pointless (hence the need for the disengament rule).  Might as well have fun IP games for 4 hours a night if the PvP is meaningless in the strategic context, and that is what you get with the challenge system of KCW.

[FPF-DieHard]

Ive said it many times and I'll continue saying it, the disengagement rule must go. People can argue that is is necessary till they are blue in the face, i still don't buy it. I won't repeat myself any more that that, except to say that its only in recent years that it is seen to be necessary, we all got along just fine without it for ages, and had more players before it was introduced... coincidence? I think not... 

I don't think the Disengament rule should go away, I just think it needs to be tweaked, at this time I'm not quite sure how.  D2 is a game about hex-flipping, any other believe is delusional.   I like that the disengament rule give PvP the ability to have an affect on the strategic outcome, I just want to find som ways arounf the spill over affects mentioned in Hexx's original quote.

I'm thinking Fleeting rules, on SGO5 we had rules preventin cap ships from flying togehter and this was a great thing in keeping the amounts of firepower limited, I'll delve more into this later . .  .

One way to improve the situation is to remove all gang-up missions. I never put ambush, scout etc on my servers anymore for this very reason. All dynaverse missions should draft 3vs3 if that's what's present in the hex. 2vs1 missions defeat the prupose of flying with a wing and gives the impression of drafting issues for the less experienced players.

Agreed.

[FPF-DieHard]

Killing the disengagement rule will kill D2. No one will fly except the Mirak.

We need less mind-numbing hex flipping chores, not more.

I noticed something that started to pick up more on SGO5: people were calling each other out for PvP more, even without formal challenge rules.

Having flown for both sides, I have heard the same thing from both, and more of it lately. People are getting bored running missions over and over and over. PvP is fun. Hex flipping is work.

D2 is a game about flipping hexes, that IS D2.   Don't forget that and don't forget that not every pilot is a PvPer. 

The game needs to remain compelling for all

[FPF-DieHard]

I've got a few beers in me, so I feel like sounding off.

I slightly disagree with T00l that hex flipping is work, it's part of the game and some of us do it because we like the strategic angle. But I do agree that getting rid of the disengagement rule is not the answer. One of the reasons KCW has been such a blast is that there are no D5D's or other droners. But you can't eliminate them altogether as to do so would be to eliminate the Kzintis, which I don't think anyone really wants.

I know the Holy Grail is SQL, but has anybody tried a true OoB server without it? Klink production of D5D's never amounted to more than 20% of all D5 production, and if we looked hard enough through all the SFB books, I'm sure you'd find similar numbers for Z-MDC and F-NCD production. We've lived long enough with limited DN and BCH numbers, and we've neutered and restricted the escorts. Why not try the same with other specialty ships? D6D's, maulers, etc. were never meant to fly alone, but were reserved for planet and base assaults. Let's get the Kitties, Klinks, and some Feds out of those drone boats and make them fly a regular line ship.

I don't think the holy grail is SQL, I think it is PBR.   I don't think we need many restrictions on what you can fly, variety is the spice of life.   I think the restrictions need to be on what can be flown together.  Or I could be full of sh*t, haven't thought this all the way out yet. . .

[FPF-DieHard]

Hehehe, thought you'd like that t00l...    I won't argue with ya, its clear we have differing views on this and have been over it a thousand times.

DNs vs DDs ≠ fun PvP.

I think our views differ on this because you're usually in the DN and I'm usually in the DD. 

edit: OK, I can't resist... the Mirak arguement just does not hold water on a server like KCW now does it?

Bonk, you have DN versus DD before the disengaemnet rule.   You will ALWAYS have 1v1 disparities (unless you resort to the KCW communist setup). 

I want this discussion to focus on Hexx's Deep thought (nobody flies solo, jumping people with 2v1 - 3v1 is a best practices).

[Father Ted]

Yuck! I hate Pabst Blue Ribbon!

I'm not saying we ban droners altogether, but be more realistic about it. You can't have a server without War Sears in a D5D, but we don't need the entire KBF, or KOTH, or KAT or half the Feds in drone boats.

[762_XC]

Ted, did you play Littebox 4? That was FULL OOB, everything heavy cruiser and up (and spec ships).

Huge amount of admin/RM overhead. Players were terrified to lose their ships.

But, the fleet dispositions were realistic as hell (well aside from all the CWL's), and PvP victories really meant something when you took a piece off the board.

[Father Ted]

Which one was LB4, because I think I did fly that one, but can't say for sure.

[FPF-DieHard]

Ted, did you play Littebox 4? That was FULL OOB, everything heavy cruiser and up (and spec ships).

Huge amount of admin/RM overhead. Players were terrified to lose their ships.

But, the fleet dispositions were realistic as hell (well aside from all the CWL's), and PvP victories really meant something when you took a piece off the board.

This server was also about as interesting as watching paint dry, though admittedly the OOB had nothing to do with that  

[FPF-DieHard]

But, the fleet dispositions were realistic as hell (well aside from all the CWL's), and PvP victories really meant something when you took a piece off the board.

STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.   This has nothing to do with what the thread is meant to address.   Leave OOB out of it, start your own thread if you wish to go over the pros/cons of OOB.

Does anyone atleast agree that jumping people 2v1/3v1 as a best practice means something is inherrently wrong?

[Slider]

KCW has done something remarkable. Its brought people out to play. Who are these people?

1. Leader\Str[spoiler][/spoiler]Sratagists leading terrain grabbers and PvP players alike with common objectives yet warry of each others intentions.

2. PvP--these folks for the most part lived (and died) in GSA to them hex fliiping was as fun as watching paint dry. All to often AI lacked the "challenge" of a human brain. Ive been on a few of these servers in the early years, I think after the 100s hexfliiping mission only to come back to a changed map lacked any strategy whatsoever....he with the most time on his hand wins.

3. Hex Flippers- they serve a vital function. Most PvP people despite todays much improved PvP would agree that just flipping hexes gets old. There are people out there that love this...this function along with PvP is whats making this server novel at least for me.

I know each house can win this , but im looking at it from 2 sides. 2 warring factions dueling it out for control of the Empire.

Our hexFlippers are sent in to grab a stategic peace of space, then there is an attempt to drive them off, usually by overwhelming force of 2-3 heavy Cruisers. The Frigate falls back and calls in his own big guns to clear the area for him. Folks Aint this what war is really about?

Ive seen the complaints and i find them selfish to an extent.

Reality is not some loan frigate assaulting enemy space only to be confronted by some Phaser 3 bearing tug.

I love the fact the AI is winning games, rightfully so. To invade and control space you need the forces to control it.

One of our allies the Hydrans guys were cut off in a corner, we are stuck in the middle between two very rowdy houses (KBF and Demons) yet we managed to open a whole to them and have even tried to kill the Demons C7 together. Though we failed, it showed comrodership to try.

I spent most of Friday exchanging the same 5 hexes with Demons. Normally Id be playing another game after 2 hours of that. As they sought to cut off my planer I found myself hopelessly out manned. I avoided them jumping into vacated hexes to cut off their supply lines. occasionally id have to fight them to continue this went on for hours till my fellow pilots arrived to help me.  We fought well into the night about 10 hours for 5 hexes!!!!!

(Your hearing this from a GSA pilot who avoided D2 like an ugly girlfriend.)


It is reality that if your in a loan frigate you might meet a superrior force. That happens in fact in military theatre its common place. The key is to have your allies uproot the entrenched enemy. Its not reality to think you can just depend on solo matches to make it through a War.

Which brings me to my final thoughts and theme...people need people to win this. Working together, cooperating not only in game but personally online in chat. And thats the best thing this KCW server is accomplishing.

I hope we all realize that.

Great job Hexx, hats off to you and the folks here at Dynaverse.

Im having the best fun ive had in years. It has all the elements of the so promised campaigns of the SL days. It has some roleplaying, some Warriror code, and some strategy.....Im having a freaking blast.

Where do I send the check... 

Slider

Gunz

[Father Ted]

But, the fleet dispositions were realistic as hell (well aside from all the CWL's), and PvP victories really meant something when you took a piece off the board.

STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.   This has nothing to do with what the thread is meant to address.   Leave OOB out of it, start your own thread if you wish to go over the pros/cons of OOB.

Does anyone atleast agree that jumping people 2v1/3v1 as a best practice means something is inherrently wrong?

It means that some folks are too chicken**** to try a 1v1 in equal ships. I got jumped in a 3v1 the other night and didn't even bother to charge weapons. I just Taco Bell'd because it was a waste of time and I don't give up ships unless it's worth it for my team. I won't mention names, but is a territorial house member that frightening to a PvP house that they need three members to hunt down one<snicker>?

[762_XC]

But, the fleet dispositions were realistic as hell (well aside from all the CWL's), and PvP victories really meant something when you took a piece off the board.

STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.   This has nothing to do with what the thread is meant to address.   Leave OOB out of it, start your own thread if you wish to go over the pros/cons of OOB.

PPPPPTTTTHPHPPTHPPTTTTHHHHHH  

Does anyone atleast agree that jumping people 2v1/3v1 as a best practice means something is inherrently wrong?

Why is it wrong? Because 1v1's are relatively rare?

[FPF-DieHard]

Slider said a lot of good stuff, I'm going to focus on just the below

Ive seen the complaints and i find them selfish to an extent.

Reality is not some loan frigate assaulting enemy space only to be confronted by some Phaser 3 bearing tug.

I think he might be right.   The "complaints" are selfish, I miss the 1v1  duels of the past and Hexx hates flying with wingmen.  we could simply be being selfish in only focssuon on the negatives over the positives oaf the modern rule set.

[FPF-DieHard]

Why is it wrong? Because 1v1's are relatively rare?

It MIGHT be wrong because I think intentionally ganging up on people should not be encouraged.  This is bad for PvP in my opinion, you aren't looking for a fight when you jump people 2v1/3v1, you are looking for a slaughter.

With the current rule set, ganging up on people is the best way to secure hexes.  That is what I feel is wrong with the rule set.

[FPF-DieHard]

It means that some folks are too chicken**** to try a 1v1 in equal ships. I got jumped in a 3v1 the other night and didn't even bother to charge weapons. I just Taco Bell'd because it was a waste of time and I don't give up ships unless it's worth it for my team. I won't mention names, but is a territorial house member that frightening to a PvP house that they need three members to hunt down one<snicker>?

Exactly my point, how can jumping people 2v1/3v1 as a best practice be considered looking for PvP?

[Slider]

There is nothing dishonerable by running someone off a hex using superior force. If you think about it its saves lives on both sides.

BTW Ive asked for 1 v 1 when outgunned, I won and the remaining pilots let me go. Dude thats right out of a movie.....

In another chance encounter we turned and looked the other way as neither of us were looking to fight each other......again cool role playing stuff.

Later that night I was fighting with some of the players i most repect in this game against another group of guys I hold in high esteem. (any Lyran pilot qualifies)  They killed us.....I felt no shame in it...I flet bad for letting my partners down, but there is no shame to losing to people I respect.

Winning requires respect, so does losing.

To quote my friend Ronin...

*steps off soapbox*
*tips hat*

Slider

Gunz

[FPF-DieHard]

There is nothing dishonorable by running someone off a hex using superior force. If you think about it its saves lives on both sides.

Not implying it is dishonorable, I just don't liked the game better before it was the best practice for controlling a hex.

[762_XC]

So what if you get gangbanged? Disengage and work somewhere else for an hour.

[FPF-DieHard]

So what if you get gangbanged? Disengage and work somewhere else for an hour.

 

You might be right, Hexx and I might be making a big deal out of nothing. 

I would like an explanation as to how jumping somebody 2v1/3v1 is even considered PvP