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[FPF-DieHard]

A lot of talk about DNLs being OTT espeically on the "Points at a time" servers where DNLs are seeing a lot more air-time.  In the Cost-of-Build systems, DNLs never got upgraded so spending too much money on them was silly as a DNL will always be a DNL, no refits until the Conjectual late-era DNMs . . .

But besides the Federation DNL which is ridiculously tough for it's FYA, which ones are OTT?  Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater by trashing a whole class of ships when only one maybe 2 need some small nerfing?

PS:  Yes the F-DVL is rediculous and should have major restricitions on it, I'm not talking about this one.

[762_XC]

OTT compared to what? Other DNL's?

[Hexx]

I think the Kzin,Klink,Rom and maybe Gorn are definetely.
All (seem ) to have comparable firepower to the regular DN with a better powercurve.
Lyran one (to me) is a toss up(although I believe FS liked it alot), Hydran one I'd say is better as well.
The Fed one is simply the one that gets noticed as it replaces a mediocre (at best)
DN with a DNL that is easily the best of the bunch.

[FPF-DieHard]

OTT compared to what? Other DNL's?

The other Capital ships respective to their FYA

[762_XC]

I don't think you can get rid of them unless you have a way of enforcing historical enemies.

What can a Paladin do against a Rom?

[Hexx]

I don't think you can get rid of them unless you have a way of enforcing historical enemies.

What can a Paladin do against a Rom?

From my understanding fly Gorn against them.

[762_XC]

Is that it then? Only the plasma dreads will be flown, and we'll all be content with that?

[Hexx]

<shrug> I think we should restrict the heavy metal and specialty ships of certain races to certain areas
Doesn't seem to be alot (or,well, any) support for it so..

[FPF-DieHard]

<shrug> I think we should restrict the heavy metal and specialty ships of certain races to certain areas
Doesn't seem to be alot (or,well, any) support for it so..

You are right, non-traditional enemies (and the ISC allied to anyone) causes pretty much all of the balance issue in this game.  But we have to deal with the reality of how D2 is usually setup as a "free for all."

Dude, I'm all for this and this but I'm not sure it is right for all servers.

That said, what DNLs besides the Fed are OTT?

[762_XC]

Depends on what crappy non-DNL dread you are flying.

A PAL- is so slow it can't do anything but castle. It might be able to handle a C5 but that's about it. The Lyran will pwn it, to say nothing of any plasma dread. The Fed of course will just laugh.

The Z-DN is probably better equipped to deal with the Lyran but still will have a tough time against plasma.

Not sure about the C8 or L-DN. I know neither is all that impressive with the power curve.

[Hexx]

<shrug> I think we should restrict the heavy metal and specialty ships of certain races to certain areas
Doesn't seem to be alot (or,well, any) support for it so..

You are right, non-traditional enemies (and the ISC allied to anyone) causes pretty much all of the balance issue in this game.  But we have to deal with the reality of how D2 is usually setup as a "free for all."

Dude, I'm all for this and this but I'm not sure it is right for all servers.

That said, what DNLs besides the Fed are OTT?

OTT is.. perhaps not the best word(s)- all of them are (for our purposes) superior compared to the regular DN
due to the increased powercurve. However all of them (I believe) actually lose a few pints of power.
Lyrans are (imo) kinda a trade off, (though FS I believe preferred teh DNL)
C5 I'd say is better,as is the LGE, I'd think the Kzin is another trade off, but noticed far mor Kzin DNL's
than DN's on the last few servers so I'd assume it's better as well.

[762_XC]

I guess the answer to the question is that they are all OTT when fighting non-historical enemies. On an F&E type server with staggered release dates or a Four Powers type setup you can do without them. Otherwise I think removing them will cause problems.

[Father Ted]

A lot of talk about DNLs being OTT espeically on the "Points at a time" servers where DNLs are seeing a lot more air-time.  In the Cost-of-Build systems, DNLs never got upgraded so spending too much money on them was silly as a DNL will always be a DNL, no refits until the Conjectual late-era DNMs . . .

But besides the Federation DNL which is ridiculously tough for it's FYA, which ones are OTT?  Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater by trashing a whole class of ships when only one maybe 2 need some small nerfing?

PS:  Yes the F-DVL is rediculous and should have major restricitions on it, I'm not talking about this one.

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

[Hexx]

A lot of talk about DNLs being OTT espeically on the "Points at a time" servers where DNLs are seeing a lot more air-time.  In the Cost-of-Build systems, DNLs never got upgraded so spending too much money on them was silly as a DNL will always be a DNL, no refits until the Conjectual late-era DNMs . . .

But besides the Federation DNL which is ridiculously tough for it's FYA, which ones are OTT?  Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater by trashing a whole class of ships when only one maybe 2 need some small nerfing?

PS:  Yes the F-DVL is rediculous and should have major restricitions on it, I'm not talking about this one.

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

?? What happened with teh DNH and BCG? look the same to me as they are in OP+ ..
and
Actually... I think pretty much everyone thinks a ship with the F- DNL's weapons,powercurve and FYA is OTT.
But constructive criticism is good too.

[Dizzy]

In all fairness FT, his shiplist gets flown on my servers and whoever else hosts one that likes what he's done. Some things I change. But your criticisms should be directed at the admin, not DH. He is a shiplist techie, not a server admin who decides to use these variants.

So tell me the problem with the BCG?

And the FDNH is the only ship, iirc, that has not had it's G racks nerfed. The DC was dropped from 12 to 6 as it should be and it was long overdue for the G rack fix because everything else in the shiplist has had it fixed.

Due to the nature of G racks, I'd be willing to have 2 variants of the DNH should DH's proposal not be acceptable. On the Romulan front, AMD racks would seldom be used so there would be 6 G racks and 3 ADD6. On the Klink front, AMD would be used more than a drone rack load and that variant would have 6 F racks and 3 ADD12. of course, DH's compromise is more generous than my 2 ideas, having 6 G racks and 2 ADD12.

Leaving the FDNH with 12 DC and 6 G racks and 3 ADD12 is absurd and way OTT.

[Dfly]

One of the biggest complaints against the Fed DNL is the fact that is has much more power than the other DNLs.  If you compare other class ships,(DD, CA, BCH), the Fed ships fall about the middle as per power on the ship.  The DNL is over all other race DNL ships in power, and by a few.  If the Fed DNL went down in power to roughly the middle of the pack, as other Fed ships are per their respective sizes, it would balance out much better.

The DNL ships dont match up in non-traditional matchups, but neither do most any size class in non-traditional matchups, so that should not be an issue.

Do the DNL ships outclass the regular DN ships? I believe they do.
Would lowering the repairs on them balance it out?  Perhaps, but I dont like that idea too much.
Would bumping up the year they come out by say 2 years fix it?  I think so, comments anyone.

[FPF-DieHard]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

[FPF-DieHard]

Would bumping up the year they come out by say 2 years fix it?  I think so, comments anyone.

FYA tweaks seem like the most logical way to go with most stuff

[Hexx]

I think the DNL's could be somewhat fixe simply with fleeting rules
Say that you can't have more than one specialty and one metal in a fleet.
CAll the DNL as both a special and metal and it won't be able to wing with either.
DNL and two CS+ will still be nasty, but not as bad as 2xCF's or a CF and a plasma boat with them.

[FPF-DieHard]

I think the DNL's could be somewhat fixe simply with fleeting rules
Say that you can't have more than one specialty and one metal in a fleet.
CAll the DNL as both a special and metal and it won't be able to wing with either.
DNL and two CS+ will still be nasty, but not as bad as 2xCF's or a CF and a plasma boat with them.

I guess maybe fleeting rules should be the way to go with everything, this was no ships get modified and there is less bickering.

[Hexx]

I think the DNL's could be somewhat fixe simply with fleeting rules
Say that you can't have more than one specialty and one metal in a fleet.
CAll the DNL as both a special and metal and it won't be able to wing with either.
DNL and two CS+ will still be nasty, but not as bad as 2xCF's or a CF and a plasma boat with them.

I guess maybe fleeting rules should be the way to go with everything, this was no ships get modified and there is less bickering.

Plus of course I can claim I solved all the problems on the D2.

That's gotta get me a few freebies dwon at the pub.

[FPF-Paladin]

What can a Paladin do against a Rom?

Easy.  I can run the b*stard around the map, make him waste his plasma, and kick in a few shields for good measure...

Oh wait.  You mean the hydran ship don't you... 

hehe,

Yes.  Shameless post whore I am.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

Real feds fly a plasma boat 

Wouldn't "real Feds" fly the BCJ ?     Just kidding as I know the BCJ is a piece of crap.

[Hexx]

There has to be someone besides me who prefers the BCG... I mean you
all can't be that stupid...

[FPF-Paladin]

There has to be someone besides me who prefers the BCG... I mean you
all can't be that stupid...

You're right.  I'm probably stupider.. I have this love affair with the BCE

Hehe, I've flown the BCJ... dangerous thing to get in front of but after the first volley it's not great.  BCF... spent a loooot of time in one of those, as far as viable PvPers I can't imagine why you'd want a BCG instead.

Getting OT though...

I'd like to see the FYA changed but that's probably it.  It's too hard to prune some ships in some eras and not others.. like say the entirety of the ISC

[Father Ted]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

The "G" in BCG stands for guided missile in case you forgot, arsehole. If we have to alter Klink ships to make them more competitive, let's fix the BCG while we're at it. And no, I will not STFU on this. 

[GDA-Agave]

The Gorn DNL is certainly not OTT.  Its basicly a CCH on a bigger hull.   Sure it's got a nice powercurve, but it can be beaten like most plasma ships.

Now, saying that, I do think it should be restricted by fleeting rules like any other Gorn DN.

[Hexx]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

The "G" in BCG stands for guided missile in case you forgot, arsehole. If we have to alter Klink ships to make them more competitive, let's fix the BCG while we're at it. And no, I will not STFU on this. 

?? Am I missing something?
BCG has 4 racks and 6 control in SFB, and 4 racks and 6 control in the shiplist..

[Capt Jeff]

There has to be someone besides me who prefers the BCG... I mean you
all can't be that stupid...

BCG is mediocre at best.   Not enough of anything to be a threat.  Power curve is not good, though, save the BCE, is best for Feds.  BCJ is a waste of time.  Maybe if it had, say 44 power  .    And it comes out so late, it's funny.  BCE is too late as well.  Maybe with some drone defense, it could work.   Whenever I fly a Fed BCH (which is rare on a rules heavy campaign), I'll stick with a BCF.

The DNL must be OTT, it's just fun to fly, which can't be good 

[FPF-DieHard]

Why don't you just cut off our balls? You neutered the DNH without consulting anyone who flies Fed regularly, you refuse to fix the BCG, and now you want to add the DNL to your list because YOU think it's over the top. Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical, but who died and made you RM? 

Ted, STFU and stay off the Alter wine.  Anything we've done int eh SGO BETA list is just that:  BETA.  We are testing things, nothing is written in stone.  The DNL is probrably never going to get touched.

The BCG is not broken with 6 Drone control.   It's not a drone ship, and real Feds fly the BCF anyway  .

As far as who made me "RM,"  RMs haven't had any say in shiplist desgin for 4 years.  Rememeber AOTK?

The "G" in BCG stands for guided missile in case you forgot, arsehole. If we have to alter Klink ships to make them more competitive, let's fix the BCG while we're at it. And no, I will not STFU on this. 

Glad to see we are both keeping our sense of humor.  The Drone control in SFB is 6, it's not broken. 

Wanna fly a BCG with 12 Drone control?  Wait until 2283, it comes with F14s also