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intermech

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2007, 04:22:38 pm »
Does anyone have an on-screen source to prove that said ships have Starfleet markings? And I am not talking about publicity shots or model tests, I am talking canon material.

Also, is not there a Dauntless-like ship in a future Battle of Procyon V sequence from "Azati Prime" an episode of Enterprise?

Offline Atolm-Rising

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2007, 06:02:08 pm »
Does anyone have an on-screen source to prove that said ships have Starfleet markings? And I am not talking about publicity shots or model tests, I am talking canon material.

Also, is not there a Dauntless-like ship in a future Battle of Procyon V sequence from "Azati Prime" an episode of Enterprise?
the markings mean nothing...as they were not fully designed ships, but were rather filler vessels...also there is no or very little onscreen signage of the akira's markings too...But again it doesn't matter
You can believe what you like, but the Sabre, Norway, Steamrunner, and Akira are all federation ships.  This was stated by the creative team for First Contact.  They where just filler designs.
Also, there are 3 levels of models in ST:FC, 1st the Enterprise, Borg Cube, Borg sphere, Phoenix, and Defiant as the 1st best level.  The Akira was the next...it was a filler ship but at a mutch better detail rate, but not where the 1st tier were at. then there are the background vessels (including the millenium falcon ) which were all tossed in there. They are not really defined designs as they were never meant to be.
Same goes for the ships in the TNG eps. "Best of Both Worlds: 1&2" they are all kitbashed filler ships, and those kitbashed filler ships in DS9, "elkins", "Yeager", etc.
Now as for evidence on screen, as i said the ships were filler and thus BS in terms of details...but here is the actual studio mesh of the steamrunner(publicity) :
http://www.stguardian.to/fed/steamrunner/steamrunnerwall.jpg
http://www.stguardian.to/fed/steamrunner/steamrunneraft.jpg
Sabre/Saber:
http://www.stguardian.to/fed/saber/saberbig.jpg
http://www.stguardian.to/fed/saber/saber.jpg
Here's the Norway on the wall in the background:
http://www.stguardian.to/fed/norway/norwaywallplaque.jpg

Now if you think that those aren't proof and the fact that the crew called them Federation/starfleet designs, then the TOS Ent and TMP Ent are Starship and Enterprise-class respectively...which we know to be incorrect, as Roddenberry himself said they are Constitution-classes

Now the ent-J is a possible future Ent, thus making all those ships in that ep only possible burred filler ships that were intentionally kept in the background for lack of budget.
thats why the Ent-D dreadnought with the 3 nacelles is only a possible design, and as we saw, was not to be, because there was an Ent-E after the Gal Ent-D got fragged. We have never seen another Olympic class other than in that Ep, while the Neg'var was modified from the Klink version that was seen in AGT.
also not one of the Maquis ships have federation markings, but are Starfleet ships as stated in eps.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 06:22:15 pm by Atolm-Rising »

Offline Chris Johnson

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2007, 06:08:11 pm »
I find the idea of the Federation as being a Totalitarian style organisation quite offensive actually. I am really very surprised that so many people here would agree with that notion.


I was going for a longer post, but in spite of my fast typing habits, I guess I'll sum up my point:

In light of all of what's been established in trek canon and factoring in inconsistencies, I've reached a conclusion that one can be confused to think that the Federation is communist or extremely socialist after looking at her military; the Starfleet.  I do think that the Federation is at least in part socialist, however no more than the United States; somewhat socialist in how big the government is, yet also capitalistic.  I think the "We don't use money" attitude is majorly a human way of life people choose in the future, not necessarily something imposed upon by the Federation government, what with examples such as from Uhura acquiring Tribbles in TOS, to McCoy offering money for transportation to Genesis in Star Trek III, to Scotty just buying a boat in Star Trek VI, to credit usage in TNG, to capitalism at its finest in DS9's promenade.  Granted, it's a station inhabited by both Federation and non-Federation members, it is nevertheless a station occupied by Starfleet, right?

To sum it up, I think the Federation and Starfleet, canonically at least, is mainly a (loose?) parallel of the United States and its military.  Perhaps a bit more left-leaning, but again, we see more of Starfleet than civilian life to be sure...

And in fanon, I wouldn't know.  I don't read a lot of the books both old and new (I sometimes wish I could), and fanfilms tend to have their own idea of the Federation and Starfleet... The unfinished Star Trek: Intrepid fanfilm features usage of a variety of TNG-era uniforms for Starfleet and has a civilian-run merchant service that majorly uses surplus material from Starfleet (that seems to be at least as old as SFM/Pre-TOS-era tech, if visuals like this one seem to be right)

But with not a big grasp of (and with not a huge interest in) politics, I don't know how accurate my observations of the Federation and Starfleet are.

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Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2007, 11:19:12 am »
I personally agree with most of what La'ra says.

I would like to start off by defining what "civilian" actually means to me in this context. I mean non-government owned and operated vessels, which pretty much rules out only Federation diplomatic ships, Federation official bureaucratic ships (Office of the Interplanetary Affairs, Federation One, Interstellar Parking Commisson, etc), and Starfleet (police/military) ships.

As such, I think that civilian ships in the Federation will be as common as roaches in a slum. Corporations will still exist in the future. Corporations such as computer manufacturers, shipping companies, romantic cruises to stunningly beautiful stellar and planetary sites of natural beauty, luxury goods importers on most well-established planets, etc. etc.

The good ol' UF of P may not be purely capitalistic any more by the 24th century, but it will still have a supply and demand, free-enterprise market setup. Otherwise, how can it maintain its economic growth and stability? Someone wants something they cannot get where they are? Someone will ship it to them. If it is legal, and has mass market appeal, it will be shipped in bulk. And since this is bulk shipping on an interstellar scale, supplying the planetary market, and sometimes on a loop run to several planets, space bulk-carriers are going to be multi-multi-multi-megatonne monstrosities. Flying Boxcars writ cosmic.

Similarly, regular passenger services between planets--and in a free, democratic, even if socialist utopic society, people are free to go where they want, when they want. Massive interstellar liners will carry thousands or tens of thousands of passengers in cyclic runs between the major planets, also carrying low-priority mail, cargo, and luggage. Colonial movers fit into this too.  :D  Because these will be (relatively) slow ships, they'll have to have endurance, lots of distractions for the passengers, and all sorts of special facilities to cater to all sorts of alien life support needs and wants.

If you have limited time, you can charter a small ship, a 10-passenger courier or something, and go straight from A to B. Similarly, colonial movers can fit here too, a slightly larger cargo ship chartered by a family or group of families.

If the item you want or the place you go to is illegal or restricted, there are always adventurous Human souls, never mind aliens, who will sneak it in or you there for a reward. There are private pleasure yachts (a ship that cannot or isn't allowed to carry cargo or paying passengers), and independent "jacks of all trades" who will take any job they can find--like Cyrano Jones, like the guy McCoy tries to charter to take him to Genesis, like the small merchantman that Valkris pays to meet with Kruge, like Kassidy Yates who runs her own ship, etc. etc.

Basically, it all boils down to the fact that Starfleet is not going to be the mass passenger service for civilians. And civilians in a free society travel. For pleasure, for business, for work, on assignment, in emergencies, you name it.

Roll into that the non-aligned worlds and other stellar nations like the Klingons, and you have international, cross border travel, too.

Therefore, even in a UFP of only 150 members, each planet having a population of around 3 billion each, that's 450 billion people, and doesn't take into account the myriad outposts, colonies, protectorates, planetary science missions, etc. etc. Even if only a thousandth of a percent on each UFP "member" planet travel annually, thats 4.5 million people hauling themselves across the stars.

Government-regulated freighters? You gotta be kidding me.

As for firepower... There is always the Orion Syndicate and the Ferengi who will sell anyone what they want and find a way too get what is wanted to sell. The number of civilian ships that can stand up to a Starfleet cruiser will be low, but there will be some. I belive that the vast majority of armed, independent ships will be on the level of the SFC Orion CR compared to the F-CA, technologially. It is frigate-type vessel, armed and shielded accordingly. Enough of them swarming, or a couple of lucky captains can at least force the retreat of a Navy cruiser. Also, they can ambush and lay traps.

Also lay into this the legitimate, non-aligned world governments who could be as developed as the Feds but just want nothing to to with the Feds. They'll do a brisk business in the arms trade, and there's nothing the Feds can do about it beyond, perhaps, economic sanctions, which would just piss of the non-aligned worlds and make them anti-Fed. The Orions themselves fall into this category.

Bottom line: Hundreds of thousands of civilian Federation ships of all types.
Interstellar Corporations will have almost as much resources as Starfleet, though it will be illegal to arm their ships beyond a certain self-defence level, and prison-worthy to field a private 'security force'.
Federation-sanctioned security fleets will be incredibly closely monitored, if they are allowed to exist at all.
Citizen-owned and operated Federation ships will have to have all the correct permits and permissions to be armed at all, and will have much lesser armaments (if any) and power than Starfleet ships, with a possible very few exceptions. Warp and shield technology is centuries old by this point, and will be commercially available, if costly for the private owner. Warp engines are apparently relatively simple to build and maintain, it is their fuel which is closely regulated. It will be a huge expense to own and operate a ship, but it already is in our present world.
Non-aligned ships operating in Federation space will be able to see off Federation police ships and smaller Starfleet patrol ships, but will be scared off by the Starfleet big boys unless there's a huge advantage they can play.

This is how I see the Federation, in either the 23rd or the 24th century. And beyond. Humans are curious. They want to "go see" for themselves.
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Offline KBF MalaK

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2007, 07:00:03 pm »
in the trek universe- they have replicators, so one can make food, money, simple objects.

Wait, they don't use money- economic principles go out the window. With replicators there really no need to work to buy food, or for housing. My guess is people work to fulfill the need to be useful- nothing else.

So by making millions of simple objects with a replicator one may be able to assemble from all these simple objects some  very complex objects (like a basic starship) to leave the planet and start collecting space debris, sattelites, hijacking other ships, etc.

NO ! the government must have control or this kinda thing will happen.
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Offline Alphageek

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2007, 04:41:14 am »
I'm behind Scottish Andy.  What he said pretty much summed up the vision I have of the Star Trek universe.  The whole of interstellar commerce is simply too monstrously huge to be handled by one agency, on top of fielding a credible navy and patroling your space.     

Offline Smiley

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2007, 07:11:52 pm »
I go with Scottish Andy's summary as well - I feel that he has summed up just about everything very accurately.

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intermech

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2007, 01:48:57 pm »
I think that they would follow the general shape of Starfleet ships, but they probably look less utilitarian have fewer escape pods, fewer weapons, and more coloring. They would have older warp engine styles then the present era, for example, Galaxy engines as opposed to Sovereign, or Ambassador engines as opposed to Galaxy. Work vessels would have boxier shapes and more exposed paneling, while luxury and private vessels may have a be much smoother and finished look. Shuttles may be mounted outboard instead of in bays. The bridges may not be centered, but maybe off to the side to facilitate docking. Ship names would be shown clearly, but would maybe look chipped, misspelled, or misshapen. In fact, ship names should be mounted on a separate, or raised part of the mesh for easy swap out, as ships may change ownership. It would be great to come up with some sort of load line equivalent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterline  In real life, load lines are drawn on ships to allow the authorities to tell if they are carrying legal load weights. Maybe some sort of scripting on the warp engines might be in order. Some sort of uniform marker on the ship to designate which planetary state they are from, similar to license plates in the US where each state has a different design. I get the impression from Trek that the use of a saucer is primarily for Starfleet vessels. Most civilians vessels, i.e. Raven, either do not have a saucer or the saucer is integrated into the main hull. It might not be necessary for the warp engines to be held on pylons so far from the ship because the ship might not be in as many battle situations where the engines might explode. In fact, warp engines could be fully integrated into the hull, where the buzzards may be at one place and not aligned with the warp grill located in another, the warp grill may even be broken up into several different segments distributed along separate axis on the side of the ship. A deflector dish may or may not be necessary. Handrails and handle bars along the outside of the ship would be more prevalent to facilitate repairs. Everything you might see on a Starfleet ship flush with the hull might be exaggerated and sticking up from the hull. Truss-like supports instead of pylons for sensors, engines and such. Outboard impulse engines, deflector dishes, and cargo pods for easy swap out. Graffiti. Discolored, or primed only panels, old chipped paint. Dark or cracked windows. Wings for atmospheric flight.

Offline Scottish Andy

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2007, 02:34:53 pm »
On that topic, FW, I'd say that all the ship owners would buy from bidders for the contract according to their specifications. I think the analogy to follow here will be aircraft/airlines, where as for Starfleet the analogy is warships/navies. It makes more sense, since the driving forced behind each are different.

For the corporate ships (passenger liners, freight-liners, bulk cargo carriers, tankers, etc.) I'd say there will be typical classes of ship, like the different airlines flying different types of Boeing and Airbus planes.  The "Great Unknown" Tour Operators of Earth might have a flagship Boeing of Earth 8447 Stratoliner carrying 10,000 passengers with 500 crew and various Grath of Tellar Starflyer liners carrying 2,000 passengers each, as well as a few "corporate executive" yachts of the type I'll outline later.

T'Vorok Freight of Vulcan may operate Sunnik-class bulk carriers capable of hauling 5,000 megatons of dry goods with a crew of 10 or 20, and Guppy-class tankers capable of hauling 2 billion gallons at 1 atmosphere of pressure.

Federation Express would operate scores, hundreds even, of ultra-fast (for their small size) couriers, Warp 8-capable with a moderately sized cargo capability of say 10,000 tons that operate with a crew of 2 to 5.

Smaller civilian ships will be as individual as their roles demand, like light aircraft. Pleasure craft (yachts) will be like Cessnas and Pipers and De Havilland Tigermoths, and aerobatic display aircraft. Really rich people will have the equivalent of Gulfstreams and Learjets. They share the same basic shape to fit their medium--i.e. they have to be aerodynamic to fly well--so our pleasure warp craft will have to conform to warp dynamics, but that really doesn't affect the shape of the ship in warp. These smaller ships will very likely be planetary-landing capable, so they'll have to have undercarriage or landing struts. Possibly have aerodynamic surfaces, too. These Cessnas also have engines on the wings or in the nose, the small jets have engines either side of tailcone, so nacelle placement will be variable as well. Built into the hull, out on pylons, positioned for planetary landing, atmospheric flight.

Also, you'll have to design size and facilities accordingly, which will alter the shape, or at least size, of your ship. Runabouts are capable of interstellar flights, but would would you want to be stuck on one for months with only a deck of cards and a book? I think the Gulfstream analogy is correct for this.

You'll need on-board entertainment, toilet and shower, bunks, play areas for kids, maybe. How much range you want (or have) determines (or is determined by) what size of antimatter containment you have. Or, more likely, these smaller ships will not be allowed antimatter and will only be allowed warp plasma aboard. Can you imagine a squadron of antimatter powered yachts landing on your planet's capital spaceport? BOOM! So, you have a warp plasma tank. That limits your endurance because the size of your fuel tank may end up being half the total size of your little ship.

What sensors do you need? For damn sure, a Gulfstream of Cessna doesn't need an F-14's pulse-doppler radar and encrypted comm channels, but it will need subspace sensors to detect planets and stellar hazards, and comm gear for pleasure and emergency.

Tactical systems such as fire control, shields, phasers or lasers will be closely controlled and regulated. Permits will have to be gained.

Cargo space? if you're a yacht, you'll need very little. If you're a trader, you need to balance cargo space with all of the above. This adds size and bulk, which affects manoeuvrability and aerodynamics.You'll likely have to have a big cargo door, too.

And of course, there are the "used" ships, cause not everyone who wants a warp ship can afford to buy one off the production line. This means you will have old Daedalus-era ships that are still spaceworthy being used as civillian vessels, competing side by side with more modern ships. The better off you are, the more you can "trick out" the hull of your old beater with new sensors, computers, etc. There may not be a lively or flourishing trade in this, but there will be one.

To the people who claim replicators will do away with government regulation on anything, think about this: Who sells (or supplies) the replicators? By, either a benevolent, beneficent government (as befits a socialist utopia, or a corporation. And won't those sterling entities not decide what patterns are loaded into said replicator to for the average citizen to make? Won't they put in safeguards so that kids can't just load new templates into the memory--say, Daddy's old laser rifle or a really sharp kitchen knife--and hurt themselves or others? Won't they make sure that adults who really should know better can't add in unauthorised items or reprogram it without hefty degrees in cybernetics or whatever?

Think on this also: What, exactly does a replicator run on? Orange juice? No, it'll be the 24th century equivalent of electricity, off the city or planetary power grid. Now, how much power does it take to replicate a cold glass of water compared to, say, a nuke? An incredibly intricate mechanical or electronic device--for example a phaser, complete with power cell, emitter, programming, etc. etc?

Large bodies can absorb this power cost, because that is what they do. Build homes, ships, aircars, orbital shuttles. But a private citizen? if they started hefty use of power for any reason, they'll be investigated to make sure they're not replicating a moon rocket or Trojan horse or a 1:50 scale model of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

So. There. Nyah. *grin* Okay, that may sound blunt, but please don't take offense. I just spend a whole lot of time thinking about crap like this instead of doing something useful.  ;D

Take it for what you think it's worth.
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intermech

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2007, 03:30:08 pm »
Considering Andy's comments, I would apply mine mentioned above but with heavy use of supplus military parts. Prehaps you would get stuff that looks like the Frankenstein fleet from DS9: Centaurs, Shellys, Yeagers.

Offline KBF MalaK

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2007, 12:26:50 pm »
It might not be necessary for the warp engines to be held on pylons so far from the ship because the ship might not be in as many battle situations where the engines might explode. In fact, warp engines could be fully integrated into the hull, where the buzzards may be at one place and not aligned with the warp grill located in another, the warp grill may even be broken up into several different segments distributed along separate axis on the side of the ship.

If I remember right (It's 25 odd years since I've read the Trek Tech Manual) Warp engines were placed that far apart so the warp fields wouldn't interfer with each other. Thats also why they we're higher or lower than the rest of the ship because they couldn't be on the same plane as the warp core.

At least thats how I remember it.
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Offline Chris Johnson

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2007, 01:03:11 pm »
that kind of became a moot point once the defiant was built

What could also very well be moot is that the Sovereign-class has Type XII phasers, or that Quantum Torpedoes are much more devastating... Neither of which had been said/demonstrated in on-screen Trek canon.  Y'know, the same one that can't make up its mind about what Transwarp is; either an infinite-speed Warp 10 that turns you into a lizard (meanwhile it doesn't and you can pass it in a Season 1 TNG episode), or a corridor through space that of course doesn't make your travel at infinate time, but still is fast.

It's things like this that give me a headache...

I think somebody had it right in the 2260s with ships that had their engines far apart, given how fast they can maneuver at Warp speed.  Aaah, good ol' Matt Jefferies.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2007, 01:22:05 pm by Chris Johnson »

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intermech

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2007, 02:09:59 pm »
Just make something that looks cool, and then makeup the treknology to fit. That is whay they did in the show. As long as the science is beyond the grasp of the average fan, it will fly.