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Offline Fallen_Warrior

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« on: March 17, 2007, 06:15:54 am »
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« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 08:57:53 am by Fallen_Warrior »
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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 07:07:20 am »
Most of the governments in the Trek universe are totalitarian (including the Federation). Most travelers are required to travel aboard military ships by permit only. Those freighters, which are operated by civilians, are government sanctioned, with operators passing a thorough background check. The few that pass are those with inside contacts and products of nepotism. Starships are simply too expensive for a civilian to own, and Starfleet has its paws in everything.  The Federation is a police state. I have had this discussion with a few in this community, and most everyone disagrees, but I think that it is supported by the shows and movies.

Offline Mackie

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 10:12:59 am »
Most of the governments in the Trek universe are totalitarian (including the Federation). Most travelers are required to travel aboard military ships by permit only. Those freighters, which are operated by civilians, are government sanctioned, with operators passing a thorough background check. The few that pass are those with inside contacts and products of nepotism. Starships are simply too expensive for a civilian to own, and Starfleet has its paws in everything.  The Federation is a police state. I have had this discussion with a few in this community, and most everyone disagrees, but I think that it is supported by the shows and movies.


Sounds pretty much the same that I think
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Offline KBF MalaK

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 03:03:28 pm »
Most of the governments in the Trek universe are totalitarian (including the Federation). Most travelers are required to travel aboard military ships by permit only. Those freighters, which are operated by civilians, are government sanctioned, with operators passing a thorough background check. The few that pass are those with inside contacts and products of nepotism. Starships are simply too expensive for a civilian to own, and Starfleet has its paws in everything.  The Federation is a police state. I have had this discussion with a few in this community, and most everyone disagrees, but I think that it is supported by the shows and movies.


Sounds pretty much the same that I think

yup, I agree.

Just like present day Terra.
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Offline ModelsPlease

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 05:42:51 pm »
Most of the governments in the Trek universe are totalitarian (including the Federation). Most travelers are required to travel aboard military ships by permit only. Those freighters, which are operated by civilians, are government sanctioned, with operators passing a thorough background check. The few that pass are those with inside contacts and products of nepotism. Starships are simply too expensive for a civilian to own, and Starfleet has its paws in everything.  The Federation is a police state. I have had this discussion with a few in this community, and most everyone disagrees, but I think that it is supported by the shows and movies.


Sounds pretty much the same that I think

yup, I agree.

Just like present day Terra.

Yeah I concur

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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2007, 10:02:29 pm »
In the TOS era, I would see a couple of rich people flying around in a few small, maybe five or six man ships.  Certainly not much bigger than a shuttlecraft.  The problem is, Warp Drives don't get really small until TMP era (Although in Menagerie, a Shuttle Craft from the Starbase does have a Warp Drive)  Once the Federation goes Socialist in TNG, forget it.  There wouldn't be any civilian craft outside of a few freighters.
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Offline Star Dragon

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2007, 12:17:21 pm »
Many private "yatchs" exist.

There are also starliners (you rescue one in Star Fleet Academy for PC).

Some Travelers get passage on small freighters (like to DS9)...
Worf's Parents hitched a ride on something when they surprised him with Alexander.

I'm sure other outlets exist...

Offline Darkseid

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2007, 03:15:45 pm »
You can see the disdain that merchants had for Starfleet on Enterprise.  They hated that Starfleet continued to interfere with their activities.  They very much so wanted to be independent.  In TMP era though you can see some freighters that wouldn't have been part of Starfleet.  surely the vessel that sold information to the Klingons in STIII weren't part of Starfleet.
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Offline Atolm-Rising

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2007, 03:27:42 pm »
First off: The Federation is not totalitarian...the prime directive does not apply to citizens and thus they can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, which has been shown in ENT, TOS, TNG, and DS9 many many times...If you feel that there maybe some evidence of it (possibly the Native americans on "Cardassian worlds" or the Maquis)...then forget it as it has been shown that they could be left on there own fruition and be accountable only for themselves.  Hence the Natives being left alone in TNG and the Maquis demise durring the Dominion war.  Oh and there is that whole Sheliak incident, that would force the colonists to leave their world or be Destroyed...Gee  real totalitarian attitude there..C'mon it was to save them from certain demise at the hands of the Sheliak...also I may point out that the federation had pratically no knowledge of their developement and didn't give a crap untill they got word from the Sheliak about it...So yes they could have let them just die...next time they might.  Federation should not be confused with Starfleet as they are very much seperate entities...(sometimes they act together, but other times they do not, as it has been shown in every incarnation of the genre.)
Second: As for the expense of the vessel, there is some truth there, but bartering is definately being used as much as actual "credits" or other precious materials, again as shown by Ent, TOS, TNG, and DS9.  Also freelance or non-allied races/peoples to have free reign of federation space, or just explore space for the sake of it...such as Proffessor Galen and the crew of the SS Raven.
It would be intriguing to see what civilian starships would look like...as they would exist.  Most likely they would have to be registered (like real vehicles, cars, boats, planes, subs, etc...), though i would not be shock at the likelyhood of non-registered vessels. lol

Offline Atolm-Rising

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2007, 03:32:49 pm »
You can see the disdain that merchants had for Starfleet on Enterprise.  They hated that Starfleet continued to interfere with their activities.  They very much so wanted to be independent.  In TMP era though you can see some freighters that wouldn't have been part of Starfleet.  surely the vessel that sold information to the Klingons in STIII weren't part of Starfleet.
if you think that starfleet say "hey calm down some guys" as a bad thing...think how bad it will be when they piss off a race that not only kills them but then comes to Earth and kills everyone here.   Or worse they act like the Conquistidors or other "colonists" that followed that whole manifest desitiny crap all over again leaving whole peoples extinct...
So i think its okay for someone on Earth to say "Hey Calm down".  Its about responsibility mates.
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Offline Smiley

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2007, 03:40:30 pm »
I find the idea of the Federation as being a Totalitarian style organisation quite offensive actually. I am really very surprised that so many people here would agree with that notion.

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Offline Klingon Fanatic

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2007, 07:01:55 pm »
Trek merchant vessels... hmm, kind of anything goes as far as what they could be armed with for the right price. Pirates have all kinds of ships afterall.

Harcourt Fenton Mudd, Cereno Jones, Space Hippies and the Aurora class vessels were all TOS/TAS

7 of 9's parents had their research vessel Raven in VOY

Merchantman from ST: III widely available throughout the TMP era

FASA Trek did a whole supplement devoted to late TOS-late TMP era Merchant Princes and Traders

Plus add the fan made computer animated TOS series about the two female merchants...

Just my two cents.

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Offline CC22

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2007, 09:45:49 pm »
Personally I count vessels such as the merchantman, Raven from voy, maquis vessels as private/civilian ships. The Maquis raiders have been reffered to as modified versions of such. I'd also reckon there would be a market of surplus to requirement ships from most races, such as it has been seen that the Klingons don't generrally worry about what happens to its hardware when its pentioned off, with certain factions gaining hold of BofP's etc.
Mudd's ship also was a distinct design - pitty it was a reused Tholian web spinner, would have been nice to see a propper design. Nay mind.
As for the Federation being a totalitarian state, I'd be inclined to point out that would be a massive error, and if anything could be likened to a Totalitarian democracy, *go google it - theres a big difference!*, but even then it lacks some of the precidences for such.
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Offline KBF MalaK

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2007, 09:30:18 am »
Earths government in Trek : Totalitarian, perhaps not- Socialist is more like it.

So I'd think private ships being rather costly would need if not require Government approval to be built if not subsidized directly from the Govt.

That has nothing to do with off worlders and pirates- they do whatever they like, steal, barter, purchase components and stuff.
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2007, 10:47:08 am »
There's going to be thousands of civillian ships running around in the STU.  The 'too expensive' arguement is a dead-end:  people build ocean-going craft today with our technology base, they'll likely build space-going ones in Trek with the much higher level of technological capability present there.

Especially when you consider the fact that, using replicators, you could easily create pretty much any part you needed.

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What would the none Military/Exploration craft look like, for the major aswell as minor races?

Trek rules say that nacelles should be in even numbers and not obstructed from the front or rear.  Beyond that, there's probably endless varieties of small craft, though I'd be surprised if, for cargo ships and such, standard layouts weren't pretty similar even across several speciies.

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What technology would be carried from the Military fleets into the civilian/merchant fleets?

Civillian ships likely wouldn't have anywhere near the sensor capability or shield power of warships...at least stock ones.  Transporters in TOS might be somewhat rare, but I'd bet by TNG, they're all over the place.

However, when you start dealing with operators not so concerned with legality, designs are limited only by what they could get their hands on.  We've seen more than one fairly formidable civillian or criminal owned ship on Star Trek.

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Would the major Military powers and for that matter Minor powers fall back on its civilian fleets, if its military fleets were somehow rendered inoperable?

Sure.  Desperate times, and all that.

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Could civilian craft be as formidable as the standard warships in size aswell as firepower? If they would have any firepower at all?

We saw a warship that exceeded a Galaxy-class in Firepower in one episode, so it's possible, though I'd say it was rare....the biggest pirate ships in Earth history were formidable, but not exactly a 75-gun Ship of the Line (which wouldn't be that suitable for pirating anyway).

For sheer size?  Well, compare a supertanker of today to a cruiser and see which one is larger.
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intermech

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2007, 12:38:50 pm »
ok, here is another controversial assertion:

The Steamrunner, Saber, and Norway Classes are predominantly non-starfleet, not only that, but the designs may not be just neutral civillian, but actually Marquis.

Ok, if I haven't been banned from the board yet, maybe you can hear me out just a bit more:

Reasoning for them being civilian designs:

1.  I have seen no onscreen evidence (on screen, not publicity shots, on screen) of any of those three classes carrying Starfleet markings or registries.
2. The overall shape of the ships are of significant departure from standard starfleet vessels up to that point, furthermore, they are departures from all shown future or experimental designs. For example, the Enterprise G (I think G) from Enterprise, Prometheous, Wells, Dauntless, Rhode Island, and Pasteur all suggest a much less angluar and for the most part, posess a more standard look.
3. The angular/utilitarian looks of the ships scream economy-centered designs.
4. The Norway has a large rectangular slot between its warp engine nacelles. This slot would be very conducive for some sort of bulk container transport. If not, what is it for???
5. Most civilian ships (as few and far between as they are) shown have their warp engines integral of the hull.

So why do we see these designs in battle scenes in First Contact and DS9 if they are not starfleet? Because the independent Marquis found that they had a common, greater enemy then the Federation. In one case the Borg, in the other the Dominion. "My enemy's enemy is my friend."

But didn't the Dominion wipe out the Marquis? Dispite apparent severe losses to the Marquis, can you ever garantee that you have wiped out a group of people fighting for their home on their home turf especially those who employ terrorist or semi-terrorist tactics?

But what about that screenshot showing Voyager's tatoo commander guy standing in front of a diagram of starfleet ships and a Norway? We don't really know what that diagram was trying to show. Maybe it was a set of ships by the same name, maybe it was the ships that One of the officers had served on. Could be a set of ships that a shipyard put out in a record amount of time. Starfleet may own a few bulk freighters much like modern navies do.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2007, 12:50:04 pm »
The Sabre class does indeed have Starfleet Markings on it.  You get a breif glance at it in "Sacrifice of Angels" I think it was.  The Sabre does seem to me as a cross between a Defiant and a Miranda class.  As for the other two, The Steamrunner class was only seen in First Contact (and the model was promptly lost for whatever reason)  I don't recall seeing the Steamrunner close enough to tell if it had Starfleet Markings or not.  I was also under the impression that the Norway class was created specifically for SFC3, like the Achilles was created for Dominion Wars.

I do not see a large number of Civilian ships, especially not near battles.  And the assertation that a Cruiser is smaller than a super-tanker is a bit off.  Frieghters as a rule are much cheaper than warships, and need to be bigger to haul more.  Cruisers need to be smaller to present a smaller target to enemy ships.

With the Federation being a Socialist Government in TNG, and the other regimes (except the Ferengi) being Totalitarian, I don't see any Civilian ships outside of Government subsidized Freighters.  The Federation was different in TOS, it was still Capitalist, to account for people like Mudd, Jones, and all the other "Civies" that Kirk encountered.
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Offline Commander La'ra

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2007, 02:38:42 pm »
And the assertation that a Cruiser is smaller than a super-tanker is a bit off.  Frieghters as a rule are much cheaper than warships, and need to be bigger to haul more.  Cruisers need to be smaller to present a smaller target to enemy ships.


For sheer size, a lot of cargo ships are physically larger (in length and tonnage) than warships.

For example, the largest battleships ever constructed were the IJN's Yamato class, which measured in at 862 feet long, with a standard displacement of 64,000 tons. The Nimitz-class supercarriers outweigh those significantly, at 102,000 tons (fully loaded).

Conversely, the largest merchant (the Knock Nevis) vessel ever constructed is 1504 feet long.  That's nearly TWICE the length of the Yamato.  Displacement?  I think they might measure that a bit differently for merchant ships, but she's 564,000 (or so, also fully loaded) tons.  While she's the largest, there are other ships that approach her size characteristics.

It follows quite easily that merchant shipping in the STU would be constructed with similar ideas, especially since starships would not be restricted by such things as harbor, breadth of canals, etc.  Therefore, it's quite likely that in the STU, large merchant vessels are significantly larger than warships.

Especially when one takes into account the massive amounts of carge that are likely shipped from world to world.

Quote
With the Federation being a Socialist Government in TNG, and the other regimes (except the Ferengi) being Totalitarian, I don't see any Civilian ships outside of Government subsidized Freighters.  The Federation was different in TOS, it was still Capitalist, to account for people like Mudd, Jones, and all the other "Civies" that Kirk encountered.


Star Trek itself contradicts this.  We've seen everything from cargo shuttles (warp capable) to freighters to armed ships capable of outgunning a Galaxy-class ship (too bad the capability resulted in it's destruction.:D), all of which appeared to be under civillian ownership.  We've seen Klingons operating on their own as raiders, etc.  We've seen Maquis raiders apparently converted from civillian use.  The list goes on.
"Dialogue from a play, Hamlet to Horatio: 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' Dialogue from a play written long before men took to the sky. There are more things in heaven and earth, and in the sky, than perhaps can be dreamt of. And somewhere in between heaven, the sky, the earth, lies the Twilight Zone."
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Offline CC22

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2007, 03:24:53 pm »
ok, here is another controversial assertion:

The Steamrunner, Saber, and Norway Classes are predominantly non-starfleet, not only that, but the designs may not be just neutral civillian, but actually Marquis.

Ok, if I haven't been banned from the board yet, maybe you can hear me out just a bit more:

Reasoning for them being civilian designs:

1.  I have seen no onscreen evidence (on screen, not publicity shots, on screen) of any of those three classes carrying Starfleet markings or registries.
2. The overall shape of the ships are of significant departure from standard starfleet vessels up to that point, furthermore, they are departures from all shown future or experimental designs. For example, the Enterprise G (I think G) from Enterprise, Prometheous, Wells, Dauntless, Rhode Island, and Pasteur all suggest a much less angluar and for the most part, posess a more standard look.
3. The angular/utilitarian looks of the ships scream economy-centered designs.
4. The Norway has a large rectangular slot between its warp engine nacelles. This slot would be very conducive for some sort of bulk container transport. If not, what is it for???
5. Most civilian ships (as few and far between as they are) shown have their warp engines integral of the hull.

So why do we see these designs in battle scenes in First Contact and DS9 if they are not starfleet? Because the independent Marquis found that they had a common, greater enemy then the Federation. In one case the Borg, in the other the Dominion. "My enemy's enemy is my friend."

But didn't the Dominion wipe out the Marquis? Dispite apparent severe losses to the Marquis, can you ever garantee that you have wiped out a group of people fighting for their home on their home turf especially those who employ terrorist or semi-terrorist tactics?

But what about that screenshot showing Voyager's tatoo commander guy standing in front of a diagram of starfleet ships and a Norway? We don't really know what that diagram was trying to show. Maybe it was a set of ships by the same name, maybe it was the ships that One of the officers had served on. Could be a set of ships that a shipyard put out in a record amount of time. Starfleet may own a few bulk freighters much like modern navies do.

NO! Lol seriously this really annoys me when its raised, because a modicum of research will show that the cgi models used for Sabre Norway and Steamrunner all have starfleet markings, just that they were of fairly low quality to be shown close up, unlike the Akira. Also the Dauntless is not a fed design. aRrGh!
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Offline Atolm-Rising

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Re: Open Discussion: Civilian Craft within the Trek Universe
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2007, 03:50:33 pm »
Exactly.