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[Dash Jones]

A little off topic, but I figure there's more of a chance of the old SFB hounds coming here than other forums.

I've been looking at this intently over the past few weeks, wondering whether or not to get it.  How is it, is it good?  fun?  how is it in relation to SFB  of which I am familiar.

Can I use the SFB things I already have to play it?

And it says it comes with mounted boards, of what quality are these "mounted" playing boards?  Are they SFB compatible, or will I lose desire to play SFB in lieu of playing Federation Commander...IF I get Federation Commander?

[Lepton]

Ouch, don't do it!!!  Sixty bucks for Klingon Border.  Sixty Bucks for Romulan Border.  That's just to get the major TOS races, i.e. Fed, Klink, Rom, Gorn.  Add their respective expansion packs for 30 each.  That's 180 bucks for very few ships.  You've got SFC.  Why pay for expensive way to play SFC lite?  I'm not saying that people don't enjoy it, but for the money, you really don't get enough.  You've got hundreds of free ships to play in SFC.  There's nothing to be gained from paying that much money unless you just have to have a Trek board game.

[Dash Jones]

Well the things people have said about it is that it is really quick, and is GREAT for fleet battles.  SFC is good for one on one, but fleet battles seem to...take a while...

However the other big draw is that it has mounted boards (I think six of them maybe from what I could see from pictures even), and so I'm wondering if those are compatible with SFC.

It's the fleet rules along with the mounted boards that have me salivating, but I don't know how good the fleet rules are or how compatible they would be if we want to play individual ships skirmishes with SFC rules

(so basically a game that's something like Federation and Empire, but with SFC type rules...SFC for HUGE fleets takes a LONG time for that, I'm looking for something I might be able to complete over the summer break with the great war scenario, as in playing out the  ENTIRE great war over the summer!).  However, I want to see if it's even any good, at least from SFB'ers viewpoints.

[Lepton]

It seems like you are pretty aware of the system.  Fleet level ships are basically SFB ships cut in half.  Squadron level ships are nearly identical to SFB ships.  Fed Commander rules are nearly identical to SFB with minor changes.  On the fly energy allocation and speed changes as opposed to the Energy Allocation phase and planned speed changes.  No fighters, no scatter packs.  If you like SFB, you will like FC, but the cost is totally prohibitive in my opinion.

[marstone]

 That is what I see, FC is SFB light.  A quicker way to do the same thing with less options.  I can see the appeal for new comers to the game system.  If you can afford it, let us know how it really plays.  I have downloaded the free sample of the game (only gives two ships)  Haven't had a chance to really look at it yet.

[Magnum357]

I would like to add my imput to this subject.  I agree with others, the cost is pretty high to get the Introduction Modules (Klingon and Romulan boarder), but just recently, they have put out a "slimmed down" introduction version of Fed Commander that is much more afordable.  I think it is called "Federation Commander: Academy" or something like that.  It has all the rules of Klingon and Romulan boarder, but uses the 1/2 inch counters and SFB size playing map, in addition it only has about 4 ships cards to play with.  It cost about 1/2 as much as the regular modules and is great for learning the game to new people. 

With not too much trouble, if you already have a lot of SFB material like I do, you could just get FC: Academey or there online demo game "Federation Commander: First Missions" which has all the basic rules to get started and its free.  But if you have SFB SSD's, they convert fairly easily with the system.  If you are limited in cash, just buy the rule Manuals (which are pretty cheap) and convert your old SFB material if you have it. 

Overall, I actually like Fed Commander over SFB because it much easier to play and it goes a bit quicker (especially Fleet Scale games).  They streamlined most of the rules so the manual is probably only 1/10 the size of SFB.  The only rules so far which are still farily complicated are the Tholian Web rules, but they did try to streamline them as much as possible aswell. 

www.federationcommander.com

[marstone]

I would like to add my imput to this subject.  I agree with others, the cost is pretty high to get the Introduction Modules (Klingon and Romulan boarder), but just recently, they have put out a "slimmed down" introduction version of Fed Commander that is much more afordable.  I think it is called "Federation Commander: Academy" or something like that.  It has all the rules of Klingon and Romulan boarder, but uses the 1/2 inch counters and SFB size playing map, in addition it only has about 4 ships cards to play with.  It cost about 1/2 as much as the regular modules and is great for learning the game to new people. 
www.federationcommander.com

With the name of Fed Commander Academy, it would be the training version of the game to help bring in new players.  It should have most of the rules, but not nearly all of the ships, just anough to show how the game is played. But would be a good way to test out the game beyond the free download at the sight (only two ships and very little rules).

[Czar Mohab]

Just glancing over the free pdf, I would think that this could have good compatibility with SFB... at least, the scenarios and campaigns.

If nothing else, it does seem to be geared for the "quick and dirty". Less paperwork, less setup, less copies of copies of copies (!!) ...

But I can see issues with SFB scenarios being played under these rules. I don't (an most likely won't) have a copy of FC:KB (or RB for that matter), so I can only assume. However, I would think that there would be some balance issues, along with some tactics that are the key to success (or failure ) in some scenarios being nerfed.

There are some very obvious plus sides to these rules:
1.) Speed 32 starships!!
2.)

You may also transfer five boxes (3C3) from any one shield to any adjacent shield (but this can only replace disabled boxes, not increase the original strength of the shield).

3.) Rules don't specify what power goes where, thus, power is power is power. (again, I can only assume it carries over to the "real" rules)
4.) There doesn't appear to be a weapon cool down, like in SFB, between firing each turn. So, it stands to reason, don't stay close on your last impulse, unless you're doing the kill shot. I can only imagine the look on an SFB vet's face when he misses that little tidbit and an FC pro reminds him. With a double deuce.
5.) No energy cost for shields or life support.

Huge cons:
1.) Price
2.) Price
3.) I like SFB/SFC enough that I don't think I will need this.
4.) did I mention price?

Czar "$60!? It better have something REALLY special at that price," Mohab. Like a self wiping board. Or self rolling dice.[/color]

[Panzergranate]

Isn't SFC 3 based around FC??

Fleet actions can be fought reasonably quickly.... but only with a grade A umpire who will stand for no quibling, veteran players with no rules lawyers amongst them and the will to play quickly. I've seen some quite large fleet actions played in SFB at wargames clubs and conventions and have played in some. Having a rookie or inexperienced player in a game will slow it down a lot. Add the number of newbies and rookies in a game together, multiply by 3  and add it to the average game turn period as a guide.

The thing is with simplifiying rules is that some of the tactical and strategic opportunities are lost along the way. Some fast play rules in wargames usually suck and lack character.

[Lepton]

Federation Commander did not exist when SFC3 was created except in the mind of Steve Cole.  And as FC uses nearly exactly the same weapons charts and rule set as Starfleet Battles and SFC3 does not, that's a further no.

[Magnum357]

Yes, Lepton is correct, Fed Commander is a pretty new game (about a year or two old).  I agree with others, it is fairly expensive to get this game system.  That is why I suggested if you already have much of the SFB SSD's, counters, and maps, just get the Rule Books which is much more affordable. 

As for the game system itself, they did have to take out a few things in order to make the game simpler yet balanced.  Feds don't have Proxies, Klingons don't have UIM disruptor benefits, and the Romulans don't have Pseudo Plasma Torpeodes or Enveloping (then again, they don't have to worry about Wild Weasels either) in order to give the game some balance.  Over the games I have played though, Fed ships are fearsome with Overloads, but the photon is almost useless outside Range 12.  Unfortuntely for Klingon Fans, some have argued that the F5 is a lousy Frigate (were it was an outstanding Frigate in SFB).  The reason for this is not that the Ship suffered a firepower loss between systems, its because most frigate use a 1/4 MC (instead of 1/3 in SFB) which means most frigates are tough little suckers with the extra power available.

[Panzergranate]

The main thing is that FC does away with the hex map inorder to appeal more to the European and UK market. Over here, any naval wargame system, whether on the sea or in space, 90% of the time will not use a non hex or square based map system. This allows for some huge tables at wargames conventions.

The popullar game, "Full Thrust" is such a system.

Games Workshop's "Battlefleet Gothic" is another.

Successful and long lasting wargames rules that have endured over the years and decades are built around a good rules system concept "hub" that can be expanded on.

Software and well thought out systems go together nicely, hence why SFB translated into SFC so nicely and continues to grow long after the originators of SFC ceasted trading.

"Crimson Skies", "Mech Commander", "Warhammer 40,000", "Laser Squad", etc. all came from sucessful wargames rules with a big fan base following.

If you're planning to create a new game, best  to work it out as a set of wargames rules fist, playtest it a lot to iron out the faults, then convert it into software.

[Lepton]

FC does not do away with the hex maps!!!  Do you know anything about Federation Commander?  Most of the cost of the damn thing are the mounted, "high quality" maps with lots and lots of hexes on them and the rest of the cost is the color graphics playing pieces designed for use with those hex maps. Yes, there are optional table top rules, but I believe there have been optional table top rules for SFB for some time now.

[Panzergranate]

What I read in the marketing blurb on the ADB website, to cater for the UK and European preference for non-hex and non-square movement (free movement), FC can be played without a hex map.

It doesn't take much to convert SFB into a non-hex movement system as I've seen it played like that over here.

[NuclearWessels]

FC does not do away with the hex maps!!!  Do you know anything about Federation Commander?  Most of the cost of the damn thing are the mounted, "high quality" maps with lots and lots of hexes on them and the rest of the cost is the color graphics playing pieces designed for use with those hex maps. Yes, there are optional table top rules, but I believe there have been optional table top rules for SFB for some time now.

Geez, IIRC the original SFB was table top rules - a tiny rule book, cut outs, rulers, and measuring angles.   That would have been something like '77 or '78 (well, around here, but in those days games like that took awhile to make it into the two shops in Victoria that actually carried them).

dave

[marstone]

yep, when I started to play the game in the early '80's (the first boxed set) it had rules for tabletop or hexmap.  Hexmap was the norm and tabletop was a small set of rules and gages to do turns and fireing arcs.

[TAnimaL]

Actually, Star Fleet Battles always had the hex maps, although the original pocket editions  ('79?) were very small, had few rules and even fewer ships. (hmm, sounds like Federation Commander...) You might be thinking of the Star Fleet Battle Manual by Gamescience that came out in 77.
http://www.geocities.com/barteus/index.html
The original edition of that used miniatures only but had similar energy allocation phase, weapons, etc. I had a lot of fun playing with my little ships, flying free without the hexes, something I only did once in SFB.
Maybe FC could bring back the return of tabletop play...

[Panzergranate]

There are a few optional Star Trek wargames rules, over here in the UK, that appeared in the 1990's to make use of the Micro Machines models that were available back then.

I spent a week, back in 1991, devising a one off set of rules for the South Dorset Millitray Society's monthly "Big all members made up game" so that the Earth - Romulan War, based on the Space Flight Chronolgy" interpretation of it could be played as a 20 plus player battle with a fast turn rotation.

Ships moved at sublight on Impulse or Fusion dirves with Warp Speed jumps across the map only being possible if the ship was at 0.99C.

Weapons were Fusion and Photon Torpedoes, Nukes, Particle Beam Cannons, Laser Cannons (of varying grades).

Obviously, in keeping with the TOS timeline and Space Flight Chronology, no transporters.

The Earth and Ear;y Federation Star Fleet vesels were Pollux, Messier, Verne, Horizon (NCC-01 to 08), Marshall and a few others. Playing pieces were siluettes on card.

The Romulans were sublight only and relied of "Sleeper Ships" to cover the distances between Romulus and Rigel (were the bulk of the war is supposed to have happened in the Space Flight Chronology.

The game went very well, with 22 players commanding a starship (or two for smaller classes) and I was asked to set one up again another week.

The scenario was an evacuation of colonist from a planet in the path of an advancing Romulan fleet. My own starship in the game, UNSS Constellation, suffered an early death after suffering a nuke hit to the bridge, loosing control of the helm and crashing into an asteroid.

I still have the rules sat around somewhere.