Pseudo turn-based ISC conquest campaign?

[FCM-Corbomite-XC]

My one stipulation would be that DH and Corbo cannot be stacked up on the ISC side as this whole thing will be no contest.

Yeah DH and I ruled so much together that our side lost 

Now your going to start telling people what they can fly and who they can fly with? We're to be punished for being too good? Why not just have DH and me as the entire ISC force?

I'm sorry if I don't want to participate in any ego-stroking event for the dynamic duo.  If you think that people will not show up when their side starts losing a hex-munching server, just wait til you two "gentlemen" start pwning everyone in your cheezy ISC BS.  I certainly won't be showing up for that crap.

I didn't design the server, the rules or the ships. In fact I said the kitties had a long range fire advantage before it even started. I flew more Fed than I did ISC this server in a CAD+ most of the time and got drafted exactly once in it. Bad luck for you. Go whine in your beer somewhere else.

[Lepton]

Not talking about ATOK 4, bud.  I'm addressing what some could see as a rather transparent set-up for an all PvP server that would likely stack the deck for one side, the ISC, particularly if certain player combinations are permitted.  If DH and company are merely looking to humiliate more KBF fellows, I am not interested.  If we talking about setting up some interesting scenarios and playing them out while keeping some eye on balance and fun, then I am all for this particular campaign.

Basically, if it is going to degenerate into more back-biting, pissing matches, and dick measuring bull crap, count me out.

[FCM-Corbomite-XC]

I have nothing to do with this campaign either. For the record I think its a horrible idea and had no real intention of playing on it. It sounds boring as hell. DH took an off handed comment I made and thought up this thing all by himself. I told him I didn't think anyone one would play, but that doesn't mean I can't come up with constructive ideas to make it work for those who might. The only reason I know more than anyone else is DH wouldn't shut up about it for, like, hours!

[FPF-DieHard]

Not talking about ATOK 4, bud.  I'm addressing what some could see as a rather transparent set-up for an all PvP server that would likely stack the deck for one side, the ISC, particularly if certain player combinations are permitted.  If DH and company are merely looking to humiliate more KBF fellows, I am not interested.  If we talking about setting up some interesting scenarios and playing them out while keeping some eye on balance and fun, then I am all for this particular campaign.

Basically, if it is going to degenerate into more back-biting, pissing matches, and dick measuring bull crap, count me out.

I have no need to measure my dick, bite anyone's back, or humiliate anyone (except Hexx who hasn't been around for months).  I'm simply tired of mindlessly flipping hexes.

I'll tell you what Lepton, I'll fully include you on the discussions regarding the fleeting rules when myself and the RM's negotiate this.  Please don't be so negative about this, this is what you've been looking for for years.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have nothing to do with this campaign either. For the record I think its a horrible idea and had no real intention of playing on it. It sounds boring as hell. DH took an off handed comment I made and thought up this thing all by himself. I told him I didn't think anyone one would play, but that doesn't mean I can't come up with constructive ideas to make it work for those who might. The only reason I know more than anyone else is DH wouldn't shut up about it for, like, hours!

Hey, if nobody wants to play that's fine.  It won't get off the ground.  A day or two of postings is all the time waisted on it. 

[Lepton]

Not talking about ATOK 4, bud.  I'm addressing what some could see as a rather transparent set-up for an all PvP server that would likely stack the deck for one side, the ISC, particularly if certain player combinations are permitted.  If DH and company are merely looking to humiliate more KBF fellows, I am not interested.  If we talking about setting up some interesting scenarios and playing them out while keeping some eye on balance and fun, then I am all for this particular campaign.

Basically, if it is going to degenerate into more back-biting, pissing matches, and dick measuring bull crap, count me out.

I have no need to measure my dick, bite anyone's back, or humiliate anyone (except Hexx who hasn't been around for months).  I'm simply tired of mindlessly flipping hexes.

I'll tell you what Lepton, I'll fully include you on the discussions regarding the fleeting rules when myself and the RM's negotiate this.  Please don't be so negative about this, this is what you've been looking for for years.

Whatever anyone decides is fine with me regarding fleeting rules.  I wouldn't have the first clue as to what to suggest on those issues.  If you can get people behind the idea, I will be there.  At this point, I don't know if that is a help or hindrance to the cause.  It seemed to me that you were pretty happy with the PBR rules to some degree.  You might just start with that to get things off the ground and actually see if people will show up to such an event rather than making extensive and complicated plans and finding no one comes to the party.  To my mind, the simpler the rules the better.

[Lieutenant_Q]

Seems to me this is great for PvP training.  Since I haven't had much of anything, if I have the time, I'll fly in it.

Personally I think this is something that would work well, as long as its balanced.  Obtaining, then maintaining the balance is going to be the tricky part.

I've got a big move coming up here, starting thursday, my internet wont even be back up until next week friday.  Possibly I'll be able to do some work on my Fed-Klink border  server idea during that time if I get the move down quickly.

[marstone]

Oh, and maybe no X-Ships for the ISC.

I was thinking the only X-ships could be the F-CX and K-DX like they had in the original SFB.  Neither of those ships are OTT and interestingly enough cost 12 EP to building in F&E.  The same as an I-CCZ . . .

Rules for partial X-refits in SFB just came out, I need to order that book . . ., some of that might make sense here. 

New SFB stuff, woo hoo, I thought they had switched over mainly to the new game.  Off to the starfleetbattles sight I go.

[Wraith 413]

 I'm interested in this concept, DH. 
Maybe using Jakle's Fleeting rules would be helpful. Especially the 3-PPD limit for an ICS Fleet/Echelon.  How about "bonus points" for PvP matches in CL or smaller class ships?

[FPF-DieHard]

I'm interested in this concept, DH. 
 Maybe using Jakle's Fleeting rules would be helpful. Especially the 3-PPD limit for an ICS Fleet/Echelon.  How about "bonus points" for PvP matches in CL or smaller class ships?

Slider and I will be on TS tonight blowing things up and I'm sure we can BS about this to see if it's feasible.  Considering the reactions of half the "community" I don't think it will be.

[FPF-Paladin]

Well, I'm for it... open to any different structure campaigns really, but where this is targeted... hey it sounds fun and relaxing to throw ships at ISC invaders and try to stem the tide.  That whole scoring system would make it way less stressful (ISC, territory vcs, Others PvP) so even if we are  being cut down regularly, there's no huge stigma of having given away VPs or guilt involved... just rearm, take off again...

Anyhow I know it's in concept stage but I'm for trying it.

[Lieutenant_Q]

My two cents on PvP VCs.

Any ISC ships killed by GW ships of equal or lesser class, worth points.  (Could even convince me on the merits of going one step higher, like a GW BC killing a ISC CA, or a DD killing a FF)
No GW ships killed by ISC are worth points EXCEPT: DNs, BCHs, and X-Ships.  These units represent a rather large commitment of resources and the loss of even one would hurt the GW powers.

[Wraith 413]

 DH and Slider,

Are you two going to be on GSA/TS tonight ?
If so , set a time and I'll try to be there.

[FPF-DieHard]

DH and Slider,

 Are you two going to be on GSA/TS tonight ?
 If so , set a time and I'll try to be there.

Yes, I'll be there around 9 PM EDT.   We can talk about how to do this while we're killing each other.

[Wraith 413]

 Cool, that time should be perfect for me.

[FPF-DieHard]

Newest off the wall idea so you can tell me I suck . . .

First premise, in ISC Invasion, the Disengagement rule will be applied to the SHIP, not the pilot.  We will have as full of an OOB as possible.  Get kicked out in a Sparrowhawk, come back in a Firehawk.  Get killed in a G-CM, have your race leader assign you another one and you can got back into the hex.  The Attrition will be of an empires shipyards, not it’s space.

In a 3v3 situation it is quite possible, even with meticulously crafted fleeting rules, to have a situation where 3 good pilots can put together a fleet that just can’t be beaten (I-BBZ, I-CATZ, I-CATZ fits that category).  In traditional D2 you could fight around this, attack where they aren’t.   But in this style of a server you don’t really have that option, engaging the enemy is the only way to win.

So what can you do in this situation?   How do you win the un-winnable scenario? Do what Kirk did, cheat!

Well, Kirk didn’t really cheat in the Kobiashi Maru, he just reprogrammed the simulation so that victory is possible.  That’s what we have to do, “re-program” the nature of D2 so that a 3-ship Uber-fleet is beatable in a war of attrition.   How do you do that?  It’s easy; remove one of the least realistic parts of D2:  instant repair!

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

At bases you will still be able to buy drones, shuttles, fighters (making carries worth their weight in gold, PFs will be handled differently), marines, mines, and spare parts to repair yourself in combat, but it won’t be the same.  Your “7th shield” won’t come back.   Hull, Excess Damage, Labs, Control Stations, ain’t reparable via the engineering panel.  Even if you have all of your weapons and power systems working a ship held together with chewing-gum and duct tape is going to start falling apart quickly once it starts taking damage.  CA ships and bigger are going to be rare so once they start taking serious damage from a few fights it will behoove an admiral to take that ship off the line.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

Questions?  Comment?  Demands that I take my meds?   

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

Um... need to get a computer that can run SFC:OP again... this is basicly what I have been looking for since I left STOC....

[KBFLordKrueg]

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

At bases you will still be able to buy drones, shuttles, fighters (making carries worth their weight in gold, PFs will be handled differently), marines, mines, and spare parts to repair yourself in combat, but it won’t be the same.  Your “7th shield” won’t come back.   Hull, Excess Damage, Labs, Control Stations, ain’t reparable via the engineering panel.  Even if you have all of your weapons and power systems working a ship held together with chewing-gum and duct tape is going to start falling apart quickly once it starts taking damage.  CA ships and bigger are going to be rare so once they start taking serious damage from a few fights it will behoove an admiral to take that ship off the line.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

Questions?  Comment?  Demands that I take my meds?   

You might be onto something there...
Having a 50% damaged ship repair itself in seconds is most unrealistic.
And as long as you have plenty of smaller units to throw at them without worry of losing VC points, it just might work.
Obviously, more exact details on how this work will ned to be hammered out, but...
ya might have something...

[deadmansix]

LOVE the Idea DH sounds like a hell of a lot of fun even for a one handed Hydran

but I do have one request make the cost of Carriers reasonable would ya last few severs they were shall I say way over the top cost wise IMO

[FPF-DieHard]

 LOVE the Idea DH sounds like a hell of a lot of fun even for a one handed Hydran

 but I do have one request make the cost of Carriers reasonable would ya last few severs they were shall I say way over the top cost wise IMO

PP will not be used for purchasing ships, they will be built with "Empire money," I'll use the F&E term EP from now on for this.   Ship costs will be based off of the F&E costs, "Carriers" will be expensive but worth it (I'll explain in a bit). 

By CARRIERS I mean true carriers, not the casual carriers. So even the Hydran Ranger and Mohawk will not be considered Carriers.  The actually fighter compliments for CARRIERS and their fleeting rules are up for discussion (see a soon to be posted dissertation that I started at work today).

Here's why carriers will be expensive in terms of EP:  Replacement fighters will be free!  This is the F&E model, Carriers are nearly impossible to kill as the fighters abosorb damage first.  It kind of works like that in SFC, a CVD pilot sends in the fighters, the fighters die (or kill the oppoenent) and the carrier withdraws.  Since ships will NOT BE ABLE TO REPAIR in spacedock, free replacement fighters is a HUGE advantage, worth the cost.

Tentatively I'm thinking Carriers will have to have an Escort of the same race and a Line ships of any race in a fleet.  I expect the combat to be quick and brutal.  Send in the fighters and the escorts, yell BONZAI!!! and hope you can overwhelm your opponent.  The carrier escorts will be disposable and as per F&E, only will cost slightly more than a Normal cruiser.  The carrier should hide behind the Escorts and be prepare to hike up it's skirt if things go badly, but it will be able to return to that hex later or return with a full compliment of fighters in another hex (and hopefully with a new escort).

Show up and Dnet TS tonight if you need me to elaborate.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

It’s easy; remove one of the least realistic parts of D2:  instant repair!

At bases you will still be able to buy drones, shuttles, fighters (making carries worth their weight in gold, PFs will be handled differently), marines, mines, and spare parts to repair yourself in combat, but it won’t be the same.  Your “7th shield” won’t come back.   Hull, Excess Damage, Labs, Control Stations, ain’t reparable via the engineering panel.  Even if you have all of your weapons and power systems working a ship held together with chewing-gum and duct tape is going to start falling apart quickly once it starts taking damage.  CA ships and bigger are going to be rare so once they start taking serious damage from a few fights it will behoove an admiral to take that ship off the line.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

Questions?  Comment?  Demands that I take my meds?   

Damnit, that just might work!  Good thoughts there, DH.

-S'Cipio

[Lepton]

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

We might need to be careful about the relative cost of ship production and ship repairs.  I might not be thinking clearly but if your ability to produce ships through EP outstrips your ability to repair ships through EP might not the RM just scrap ships instead of repairing them, or treat ships in general as attrition units?

So since it is turn-based I assume that ship repairs will take a turn to complete, yes?

[FPF-DieHard]

We might need to be careful about the relative cost of ship production and ship repairs.  I might not be thinking clearly but if your ability to produce ships through EP outstrips your ability to repair ships through EP might not the RM just scrap ships instead of repairing them, or treat ships in general as attrition units?

I'm thinking a flat-rate or 1/2 it's production cost rounded down.  Maybe less, will have to crunch the numbers.

So since it is turn-based I assume that ship repairs will take a turn to complete, yes?

Yes, so if  Gorn DNH is damaged badly in round 1, it gets repaired in round 2, it's back ready for action in round 3.

[Lepton]

The question is, do you want to make a server appealing to a very small group, or do you want to make a server for the entire community to try and keep interest in this game alive...?

If the majority of the the community wants to flip hexes, I honestly don't care anymore.   If I can get 3 players on each side for this, it's a go.

I'd rather poke my eye out with a rusty screw-driver than run/play on another hex-flipping server.  Having to fly 8-14 hours a day flipping hexes so my side doesn't get wiped off the map is a collasal waist of time and I will never do it again. 

Hey, I was so busy being an a-hole that I did not see this.  No more hex-flipping for you??  OH, HAPPY DAY!!  HAPPY DAY!!  I hate to say it but I am pretty much done with hex-munching servers as well.  And, yes, as far as I am concerned if we can get 6 folks to show up at one time that will be enough for me.  I'd rather play 3 good PvP matches in 3 hours than 18 ten minute AI missions.  Let's make it happen.

[FCM-Corbomite-XC]

First premise, in ISC Invasion, the Disengagement rule will be applied to the SHIP, not the pilot.  We will have as full of an OOB as possible.  Get kicked out in a Sparrowhawk, come back in a Firehawk.

I fail to see the purpose of this if the ship was not damaged.

Get killed in a G-CM, have your race leader assign you another one and you can got back into the hex.  The Attrition will be of an empires shipyards, not it’s space.

Getting killed should definitely take you off the front for awhile as you have to be rescued, debriefed and reassigned.

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .). 

This sounds like an RM paperwork nightmare.

So how does this balance out the 3-ship ubber-fleet?  CLs are going to be plentiful, these will make up of the ships in a fleet.  Suicide runs add up!  If you loose five D5 hulls to get a CCZ taken off the line it’s worth it!  Fighters, PFs, attrition units will be able to do the same.  I also think the first fleets to attack hexes will be CL/CW fleets as it just makes sense to start an invasion of a hex with the war cruisers.  Why risk damaging an expensive ship on the AI?

I don't see how the ISC will have a chance in this type of environment if Carriers, PF Tenders and other specialty ships are not limited in deployment.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't see how the ISC will have a chance in this type of environment if Carriers, PF Tenders and other specialty ships are not limited in deployment.

Specialty ships will be limited production, similar rules as F&E such as 1 mauler per production cycle, etc . . .  As far as fighter/PFs are concerned the ISC has them as well.   The ISC will also have a larger economy and probably a bigger starting pool of ships.  The GW races will have been economically ravaged by the War and just won't be able to produce as much. 

The devil is in the details which can be hammered out.   But I think the broad concept is solid.  We'll do a test round or two to work out the kinks.

[FPF-DieHard]

Insta-repair quite frankly is really silly.  When ships in the Trek/SFB universe get F’d up it takes months to fix, not just pressing a button.  Repair will no longer be available at starbases, since this isn’t possible it will be stopped by setting the prices for repair as prohibitively high.   This will be a turn-based campaign and real-repairs of a ship will require taking it off the frontline and it will need to spend some time in dry-dock and it will cost something in production points (to be determined . . .).

This sounds like an RM paperwork nightmare.

I don't think it will be that bad and since the server won't be up 24/7 the ships assignments can be done off-line.  People can setup Alt Accounts before hand so spare ships can be available on the fly.  Using the OCI and a Spreadsheet this should take about 10 minutes.  The RM/ARMs will be able to go into the OCI to assign different ships if new assignments are needed.

I talked to the Dnet big brains and though a fully-automated system is possible with SQL it will require time.   I'd rather not ask these guys to develop that as any spare time they have should be spent on SFC:4

[FPF-DieHard]

First premise, in ISC Invasion, the Disengagement rule will be applied to the SHIP, not the pilot.  We will have as full of an OOB as possible.  Get kicked out in a Sparrowhawk, come back in a Firehawk.

I fail to see the purpose of this if the ship was not damaged.

Get killed in a G-CM, have your race leader assign you another one and you can got back into the hex.  The Attrition will be of an empires shipyards, not it’s space.

Getting killed should definitely take you off the front for awhile as you have to be rescued, debriefed and reassigned.

This is all negotiable and the Disengagement rule may not ever be needed.  We're fighting over ships mainly, not territory.   Also if you kick everyone out of a hex, and with out low-player population it's very possible, you won't be able to get PvP.   The goal here is to get as much PvP as possible in a Strategic context, pretty hard for that to happen when you're opponents can't hit you back.

In F&E, to retreat you had to sacrifice some ships in a "screening" action.  Perhaps the only rule regarding this is in a 3v3, you cannot withdraw until one of your ships is dead?