Topic: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista  (Read 13703 times)

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Offline Rod ONeal

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I found this interesting.

http://www.guru3d.com/news/windows-users-will-be-allowed-to-downgrade-to-xp-from-win7-skip-vista/

Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
By Hilbert Hagedoorn, April 7, 2009 - 8:03 PM


 

Windows XP is a solid operating system, if a bit outdated. The Windows 7 Beta has been promising, and is a definite improvement in both speed and stability over Windows Vista. However, some people might not share my warm feelings towards Microsoft’s latest OS, and would prefer that their new computers have XP preinstalled, or have the capability to install XP over Windows 7.  It has been confirmed that users can do this without having to deal with Vista at all.

According to BetaNews, a Microsoft spokesperson came out and stated that users will be able to downgrade from Windows 7 to XP without a problem.  This comes after the news that Microsoft would continue to support XP through at least June 2010.  Users of Windows 7 may skip Vista entirely when downgrading.

XP is being kept on by Microsoft as the OS of choice for Ultra-Low-Cost-Portables (netbooks), though Windows 7 is fully capable of running on these sometimes underpowered machines. It is unclear if users who purchase netbooks with XP will be offered incentives to upgrade to Windows 7 [via betanews].

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yep, killer OS that Vista (not!). I really hope that Windows 7 is better. I don't want to have to keep using an old OS as more newer capabilities and software come along.
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Offline Nemesis

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The fact that Microsoft has to extend the life of older Operating Systems (repeatedly) says to me that they know they are not delivering what their customers want and that Microsoft knows that the customer can leave them now, even if most customers don't yet know they can leave.  I wonder how long before they are compelled to extend the life of MS-Office the same way?
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Offline toasty0

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Vista Rocks!  :D

Actually I'm getting a kick out of Win7.
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Offline Nemesis

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Vista Rocks!  :D

Some agree but the market acceptance has been poor.
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Offline toasty0

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Vista Rocks!  :D

Some agree but the market acceptance has been poor.

I know. Vista ran into the same brick wall that Ubuntu and other Linux based desktop distros have run into: change and too large a learning arc for IT wonks and consumers alike.
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Offline Nemesis

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I know. Vista ran into the same brick wall that Ubuntu and other Linux based desktop distros have run into: change and too large a learning arc for IT wonks and consumers alike.

From what I've read it couldn't be used on low to mid level hardware at a satisfactory performance when released. 

Also there is the DRM issue.  Vista is much more loaded with built in DRM and more people are getting bitten by it.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Vista Rocks!  :D

Some agree but the market acceptance has been poor.

I know. Vista ran into the same brick wall that Ubuntu and other Linux based desktop distros have run into: change and too large a learning arc for IT wonks and consumers alike.

It also probably is that it has a LOT OF NON-COMPATIBILITY issues.  If it were compatible with all my games and applications...I'd have transferred to Vista...BUT it didn't...so I didn't transfer over to it.

My hope is that Win 7 is a LOT MORE friendly to the user base than Vista was.  Vista seemed like trying to FORCE change upon everyone for the sake of change and money/greed rather than for any good reason.

Change for the sake of change isn't always veiwed favorably, especially when it runs like @#$% on machines that state they are supposed to be able to run it.
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Offline Wraith 413

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 Our unit recently migrated to Office 2007. OMG , I dread using Office 2007 as it has noticeably slowed down our computers. Next up is a Vista migration by year's end.(Currently using XP)
 I'd say about 1/3 of our computers will not be able to handle Vista and Office 2007 together.

 I have Win7 and XP (dual boot) on this computer at home and I'm liking Win7 so far. I still prefer Office 2003 at this time however.

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I've renamed vista in my Grub boot menu to "Windblows: Polished Turd Edition"... that's pretty much all it is...

Offline Nemesis

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What we're really after is simply that people acquire a legal license for Windows for each computer they own before they move on to Linux or Sun Solaris or BSD or OS/2 or whatever. - William Gates III

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Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary gods for mercy. - William Gates III

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Let's face it, the average computer user has the brain of a Spider Monkey. - William Gates III
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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 04:59:41 pm »
Quote
Our unit recently migrated to Office 2007. OMG , I dread using Office 2007 as it has noticeably slowed down our computers. Next up is a Vista migration by year's end.(Currently using XP)
 I'd say about 1/3 of our computers will not be able to handle Vista and Office 2007 together.

 I have Win7 and XP (dual boot) on this computer at home and I'm liking Win7 so far. I still prefer Office 2003 at this time however.

I found just the opposite..

If your computers has a Core 2 or better and 2 to 4 GB system memory, I found Office 2007 with all updates, combined with Microsoft Works v9.. Office works much faster and is easier to use than it 2003 predecessor.. I use Office 2K7 constantly.. it is much improved over Office2K3.. and I used that old software a lot as well.

I use Microsoft Works as a launching portal for Office since all the Office programs from the Enterprise Edition will embed into the Works launcher by default.. so I have quick access to Outlook, Excel, Power Point, Etc all from one GUI, plus the extras that Works offers for the home, like Grocery lists, to do lists, basic budgeting, cards, etc.

Anyhow.. guess my experiences with the software is a bit different from yours.. I have never run software on old computers.. at least not on computers more than 4 years old... If the system was built in 2K3, and your bar buying software in 2K7.. more than likely, you need a major upgrade to your systems or just replace the computer with a new model..

I know in the business environment it is a pain in the arse, but systems have to keep up with the software and vice versa.
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Offline Wraith 413

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 10:05:38 pm »
 The hardware we have is old and outdated. My work computer (2005 model) has a Pent.4 with like 1mb of ram . On my computer at home, I have no problems with Win7 or Office 2007.  As far as my personal dislike of Office 2007, it mostly has to do with still getting to know where things are placed on the toolbars and menus as opposed to Office 2003.  Mostly unfamiliarity, but for most of my simple needs, Office 2007 is overkill.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 03:05:49 am »
If your computers has a Core 2 or better and 2 to 4 GB system memory, I found Office 2007 with all updates, combined with Microsoft Works v9.. Office works much faster and is easier to use than it 2003 predecessor.. I use Office 2K7 constantly.. it is much improved over Office2K3.. and I used that old software a lot as well.

I'm not an MS Office user but what is the great improvement that makes it necessary to accept scrapping computers that happily ran the last version?  Why does the new version have such high requirements compared to the last? 
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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2009, 09:01:08 am »
If your computers has a Core 2 or better and 2 to 4 GB system memory, I found Office 2007 with all updates, combined with Microsoft Works v9.. Office works much faster and is easier to use than it 2003 predecessor.. I use Office 2K7 constantly.. it is much improved over Office2K3.. and I used that old software a lot as well.

I'm not an MS Office user but what is the great improvement that makes it necessary to accept scrapping computers that happily ran the last version?  Why does the new version have such high requirements compared to the last?

First, and having nothing to do with OSs or other software requirements, older machines should be scrapped. The HDDs as well as other hardware architecture components are inefficient compared to their newer counterpart , to say the least.



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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2009, 10:17:36 am »
First, and having nothing to do with OSs or other software requirements, older machines should be scrapped. The HDDs as well as other hardware architecture components are inefficient compared to their newer counterpart , to say the least.

In a word NO.

So long as the equipment works and does the job there is no reason to scrap it.  The company I worked for used a spectrometer controlled by a Windows 3.1 machine for years after XP was out and only when the computer itself died moved it to a Windows 98 machine.  The machine WORKED it did everything that was needed of it so why replace it and the much more expensive equipment it controlled (no drivers for anything later than XP)?

Replace a computer because it has failed or cannot do the job you use it for.  Not because newer computers are faster and more powerful.  Speed often does nothing for you except waste electricity and the money to purchase that faster machine .
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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2009, 12:21:00 pm »
First, and having nothing to do with OSs or other software requirements, older machines should be scrapped. The HDDs as well as other hardware architecture components are inefficient compared to their newer counterpart , to say the least.

In a word NO.

So long as the equipment works and does the job there is no reason to scrap it.  The company I worked for used a spectrometer controlled by a Windows 3.1 machine for years after XP was out and only when the computer itself died moved it to a Windows 98 machine.  The machine WORKED it did everything that was needed of it so why replace it and the much more expensive equipment it controlled (no drivers for anything later than XP)?

Replace a computer because it has failed or cannot do the job you use it for.  Not because newer computers are faster and more powerful.  Speed often does nothing for you except waste electricity and the money to purchase that faster machine .

I'm not sure why you're quibbling here Nem. If it works, fine, then don't upgrade. I just see why you're so gosh darn sure you have to keep old equipment and forego upgrading to newer, more efficient methodologies and or harware?

Look, it is like this, if you thinnk a train gets you there in the time and manner you wish to travel and arrive, then take the train. If I or others feel we'd rather try the latest transporter technologies then what's the beef?

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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2009, 02:25:56 pm »
I'm not sure why you're quibbling here Nem. If it works, fine, then don't upgrade. I just see why you're so gosh darn sure you have to keep old equipment and forego upgrading to newer, more efficient methodologies and or harware?

Look, it is like this, if you thinnk a train gets you there in the time and manner you wish to travel and arrive, then take the train. If I or others feel we'd rather try the latest transporter technologies then what's the beef?

Your blanket statement:

Quote
older machines should be scrapped.

Being old is not reason to scrap it.  Not doing what is requireed or desired would be.
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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2009, 03:38:28 pm »
Quote
Being old is not reason to scrap it.  Not doing what is requireed or desired would be.

Exactly Nemesis.. Office 2007 requires a better performing machine.. not an outdated one..

Most of your programs coming out today require Core 2 processors or better, many graphics based software are starting to require SLI x3 in order to get full graphic capabilities.. many more programs are starting to require 4GB ram or more..

Age of Conan for example.. works best on a maching running 2 vid cards in SLI with 1.5 GB video memory per card.. preferably the GTX 295 series for the fast graphics processing.. 8 GB DDR3 memory and an i7 quad core  CPU running off the 980 Intel chipset at 3.6 Ghz...

However you can play the game with Med to med. High settings and Direct X 10 using 1 NVidia 8800 GTX with 512 MB memroy or better, a Core 2 Duo running at 2.4 GHz and 2 GB system memory.. but expect low fps and expect some latency if you are using an integrated ethernet card.. the CPU just can't handle it all.

With Office 2K7, the program is Multi-Threaded and Optimized for 2 or more processors.. thus works best when running it with a Pentium Dual Core (which only lasted about 6 months on market) or the Core 2 series CPUs that have either 2 or 4 CPUs in 1 die..

Software is being designed to take advantage of the innovations of hardware, and in some cases like Age of Conan, it is being designed to work on Modern systems build within the last 2 years or so with the outlook of having to allow it to run on systems 10x better than what is on the market today.. so their game is extremely demanding on hardware and specifications.

Now if I was an old company that has no vision of the future and likes to work at turtle or snails pace.. the yes, I would keep a Windows 3.1 or 95 /98 machine going to take care of my business.. or if I want precision, and to be able to increase the speed and effeciency of my company, I could update my equipment to something that offers me more independance, flexability, speed, stability, and have the capabiolity of doing more than 1 project at a time.

Imagine your work Win 98 PC.. it can do what, 1 at a time?, with a Quad Core system with 4 independant processors. you can be doing 4 at a time... your productivity just quadrupled..

Which is why older systems are scrapped out, and the parts melted down as much as possible and recycled into new components...

If we are talking about people, I agree, You don't thow out because its old.. but looking at Technology.. Old is not better, it is just Much, Much slower and incapable of performing as well as a newer piece of Tech..

Like ToastyO stated.. it is like comparing a steam engine train to the bullet train.. I get on 1 train, you get on the other.. we are both leaving from the same place to get to the same destination 400 miles away.. I should arrive there many, many hours ahead of you because the technology allows me to travel at 200 Mph compared to the 60 Mph tech you are using. Sure you get to see more of the scenery on the way, but think of all the productivity time lost. Because I used newer tech to travel, I saved 3 hours and 40 min.. thus more time for me to be productive.

Just something for you to think about.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 03:51:21 pm by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
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Offline Wraith 413

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2009, 05:00:39 pm »
 It's a never ending cycle, a paradox one might say. You get faster hardware that runs currently available apps great. Then the apps get updated and then your hardware isn't so fast anymore. Such goes the circle of electrons.

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2009, 05:25:53 pm »
Exactly Nemesis.. Office 2007 requires a better performing machine.. not an outdated one..

Most of your programs coming out today require Core 2 processors or better, many graphics based software are starting to require SLI x3 in order to get full graphic capabilities.. many more programs are starting to require 4GB ram or more..

What does Office 2007 do that a TYPICAL user would find an advantage over the last version?  An advantage worth the cost of replacing your whole system to get?

I think that it has long passed the time where MS is adding Bells and Whistles and calliopes to the program just to sell new versions.  I have yet to hear of something that a typical user would find as a useful new function.

Note an interface change is not a new function.

With Office 2K7, the program is Multi-Threaded and Optimized for 2 or more processors.. thus works best when running it with a Pentium Dual Core (which only lasted about 6 months on market) or the Core 2 series CPUs that have either 2 or 4 CPUs in 1 die..

If the old version of Office does everything you need what purpose does upgrading to the new one serve to you the customer?  What makes it worth buying a whole new powerful computer, a new Windows and a new Office suite when a less powerful system with the old software does all you need at equal speed?

Now if I was an old company that has no vision of the future and likes to work at turtle or snails pace.. the yes, I would keep a Windows 3.1 or 95 /98 machine going to take care of my business.. or if I want precision, and to be able to increase the speed and effeciency of my company, I could update my equipment to something that offers me more independance, flexability, speed, stability, and have the capabiolity of doing more than 1 project at a time.

Office 2007 lets a secretary type how many more words a minute?

Like ToastyO stated.. it is like comparing a steam engine train to the bullet train.. I get on 1 train, you get on the other.. we are both leaving from the same place to get to the same destination 400 miles away.. I should arrive there many, many hours ahead of you because the technology allows me to travel at 200 Mph compared to the 60 Mph tech you are using. Sure you get to see more of the scenery on the way, but think of all the productivity time lost. Because I used newer tech to travel, I saved 3 hours and 40 min.. thus more time for me to be productive.

Just something for you to think about.

For a select few who use high end software upgrading makes sense but that goes with what I said in any case.

Quote
Being old is not reason to scrap it.  Not doing what is required or desired would be.

Unless the new software and new hardware does something that you NEED upgrading it is pointless and a waste of time and money.

I'm not against upgrading when the upgrade is useful.  I built myself dual processor machines years ago.  I'm posting from a 2 year old dual core machine right now. 

An engineer who will have his drawing refresh in half the time?  Sure, buy him that new machine.  A database server that will run faster and leave less wait time for the end user?  Great. 

A new version of your existing software that does nothing to improve cost effectiveness and requires a massive hardware upgrade?  :thumbsdown:
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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2009, 07:59:45 pm »
Um, Office 2007, combined with Vista, there is no need for typing.. a Secretary can just Dictate to the computer.. It releaves stress, Typos, carpo-tunnel syndrome, posture, aggrivation, eyestrain, etc. Vista has a version of Dragon Naturally Speaking or similar program already built in which works with the entire system. on XP, you would have to buy a Voice program like Dragon to accomplish this, but on new systems, the option is already there. Office 2K3 doesn't operate well with Voice Dictation / commands.

Also Office 2K7 offers more file formats that are compatible with different OS, plus it is fully xml /bxml compliant where 2K3 may not display properly, and Office 2k7 has better file compression than previous versions.. granted that a txt file or rtf file is compressed well enough already, there is less chance of corruption of the file.
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Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2009, 03:02:51 am »
Sorry, but anyone still suggesting Vista is missing the point of this thread.

The vast majority of business systems and, even gamers, don't need all of the cpu power being bantered around here. AoC doesn't require 2x295 in SLI. What graphics programs are suggesting 3x SLI (I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just curious what they are)? Pentium dual cores are still manufactured. The world is bigger than just Microsoft, Nvidea, and Intel. Step outside and look around. ;)   
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2009, 04:15:42 am »
Um, Office 2007, combined with Vista, there is no need for typing.. a Secretary can just Dictate to the computer.. It releaves stress, Typos, carpo-tunnel syndrome, posture, aggrivation, eyestrain, etc. Vista has a version of Dragon Naturally Speaking or similar program already built in which works with the entire system. on XP, you would have to buy a Voice program like Dragon to accomplish this, but on new systems, the option is already there. Office 2K3 doesn't operate well with Voice Dictation / commands.

You just substantially increased retraining costs. Will there be enough productivity gain to offset the costs before the next upgrade?  I have severe doubts of that.

Now is the voice recognition good enough to get punctuation right? Choose the correct homonym?  Use the correct industry specific terms?  How about formatting?  How well does it handle accents?  How much time and effort will the secretary have to expend in correcting errors introduced by the voice recognition system?  How good is it at filtering out extraneous voices and sounds?  If it fails on any of those you likely just decreased performance. 

When you have "trained" it to handle industry specific terms can that "training" be transferred from system to system or are you stuck "retraining" it on each individual system?  More productivity loss that needs to be overcome before you get into profits.

It just doesn't seem likely to be a profitable productivity boosting "improvement" for most people. Just my opinion of course.

I'm sure that there are exceptions.  People with certain handicaps for example I'm sure will welcome this.  People with others (deaf or speech impediments or strong accents) likely won't be able to use it at all. 

Also Office 2K7 offers more file formats that are compatible with different OS, plus it is fully xml /bxml compliant where 2K3 may not display properly, and Office 2k7 has better file compression than previous versions.. granted that a txt file or rtf file is compressed well enough already, there is less chance of corruption of the file.

By default it uses DOCX which Microsoft has scheduled for replacement in the next version with OOXML (assuming they can actually implement OOXML).  Can you set Office 2007 (easily) to save by default in the older DOC format (or in any of those other formats) or are you going to be producing lots of files that can't be read except by Office 2007 meaning replacing all those older systems (or by a plugin for 2003)?
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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2009, 10:15:02 am »
Sorry, but anyone still suggesting Vista is missing the point of this thread.

The vast majority of business systems and, even gamers, don't need all of the cpu power being bantered around here. AoC doesn't require 2x295 in SLI. What graphics programs are suggesting 3x SLI (I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just curious what they are)? Pentium dual cores are still manufactured. The world is bigger than just Microsoft, Nvidea, and Intel. Step outside and look around. ;)   

Most businesses don't need the extra power because IT manager "said" they don't need it. The IT manager says this because the manager either does not have the budget or the manpower to implement the upgrade, or both. The IT manager rarely makes this decision based up the business productivity needs of other departments. It is not in his best interest(usually) to respond to those needs until they become critical. It's those same reasons and motivations that currently cause many IT managers to maintain legacy XPpro OS based machines instead of Vista Business or Ultimate OS based machines and NT4 based server networks even thought they know the Vista boxes and Server 03/08 networks are oft times less vulnerable to security exploits are are more effcient for the end user.

Other causes:
Bonuses...
Raises...
Retention...
And an IT department's RIO and Cost of Ownership is not always tied into the other department's RIO and Cost of Ownership.

Then there is the problem of the IT manager dealing with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality" from other non-tech departments. This is especially true when it comes to IT security. As a subject it is seemingly complex and about as exciting as 3 day old tapioca pudding to the non-techie.

I firmly believe that anytime you can, increase productivity and security. Productivity increases shows a tangable return. Address security is like a good door lock and response. You only know it was worth the slightly extra expense when an intrusion attempt or cyber attack occur. Then you're damn relieved you had upgraded.

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2009, 12:37:58 pm »
Sorry, but anyone still suggesting Vista is missing the point of this thread.

The vast majority of business systems and, even gamers, don't need all of the cpu power being bantered around here. AoC doesn't require 2x295 in SLI. What graphics programs are suggesting 3x SLI (I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just curious what they are)? Pentium dual cores are still manufactured. The world is bigger than just Microsoft, Nvidea, and Intel. Step outside and look around. ;)   

Most businesses don't need the extra power because IT manager "said" they don't need it. The IT manager says this because the manager either does not have the budget or the manpower to implement the upgrade, or both. The IT manager rarely makes this decision based up the business productivity needs of other departments. It is not in his best interest(usually) to respond to those needs until they become critical. It's those same reasons and motivations that currently cause many IT managers to maintain legacy XPpro OS based machines instead of Vista Business or Ultimate OS based machines and NT4 based server networks even thought they know the Vista boxes and Server 03/08 networks are oft times less vulnerable to security exploits are are more effcient for the end user.

Other causes:
Bonuses...
Raises...
Retention...
And an IT department's RIO and Cost of Ownership is not always tied into the other department's RIO and Cost of Ownership.

Then there is the problem of the IT manager dealing with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality" from other non-tech departments. This is especially true when it comes to IT security. As a subject it is seemingly complex and about as exciting as 3 day old tapioca pudding to the non-techie.

I firmly believe that anytime you can, increase productivity and security. Productivity increases shows a tangable return. Address security is like a good door lock and response. You only know it was worth the slightly extra expense when an intrusion attempt or cyber attack occur. Then you're damn relieved you had upgraded.

I think there is even more to the issue than you list here.  Take, for instance, my department's issues regarding upgrading computers.  Upgrading to a new OS beyond XP will provide no productivity gains.  Upgrading to a new computer will also net no productivity gains.  It doesn't matter how many new features there are or how many performance tweaks you have built in, it just isn't going to happen.  Those in my department (finance) are for the most part still "trying" to move into the 21st century with the software we already have, let alone maximize the potential of the most current version that's out there (which we don't have).

We largely use excel for our work, and somehow, before I arrived, vlookups formulas and subtotaling was about as advanced as anyone in that department had imagined.  I actually had to debate quite feverishly with my previous supervisor just to even consider introducing the idea of using pivot tables, filters, data consolidation, etc.  macros?  still never touched, and macros in excel are next to useless without the relatively benign and obscolete MS visial basic programming language.  Needless to say, most of the excel work we do is done manually.

Most of the work we do would be served very well with a relational database software, even Access, but that is a long, long long ways off.  There are a number of reasons for this.  For one, convincing non IT minded folks of learning new skills that come with new systems if very very difficult.  They just simply don't want to do it.  Second, our main function is financial reporting for regulatory purposes.  If you had limited staf, with limited time, and a constantly changing game field, would you spend your time analyzing changes in federal and state regulations, which is part of your core duties, or would you send your staff off to learn programming languages, and train in on news software and systems that are constantly evolving?  FInally, there is the political aspect: your staff has new software and new computers that are supposed to make them much more productive- executive leadership knows this.  Hmmm, sounds like your department doesn't need as many people anymore and we can cut costs.  that particular mentality is an extremely short sighted one, but is VERY common.  It's probably the greatest reason I've had thrown back in my face for why we SHOULD NOT implement productivity enhancements- because we may lose our jobs.
CK

But tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or fix this hole in a mother's son?
Can you heal the broken worlds within?
Can you strip away so we may start again?
Tell me, can you heal what father's done?
Or cut this rope and let us run?
Just when all seems fine, and I'm pain free, you jab another pin,
Jab another pin in me
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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2009, 06:27:38 pm »
Um, Office 2007, combined with Vista, there is no need for typing.. a Secretary can just Dictate to the computer.. It releaves stress, Typos, carpo-tunnel syndrome, posture, aggrivation, eyestrain, etc. Vista has a version of Dragon Naturally Speaking or similar program already built in which works with the entire system. on XP, you would have to buy a Voice program like Dragon to accomplish this, but on new systems, the option is already there. Office 2K3 doesn't operate well with Voice Dictation / commands.

You just substantially increased retraining costs. Will there be enough productivity gain to offset the costs before the next upgrade?  I have severe doubts of that.

Now is the voice recognition good enough to get punctuation right? Choose the correct homonym?  Use the correct industry specific terms?  How about formatting?  How well does it handle accents?  How much time and effort will the secretary have to expend in correcting errors introduced by the voice recognition system?  How good is it at filtering out extraneous voices and sounds?  If it fails on any of those you likely just decreased performance. 

When you have "trained" it to handle industry specific terms can that "training" be transferred from system to system or are you stuck "retraining" it on each individual system?  More productivity loss that needs to be overcome before you get into profits.

It just doesn't seem likely to be a profitable productivity boosting "improvement" for most people. Just my opinion of course.

I'm sure that there are exceptions.  People with certain handicaps for example I'm sure will welcome this.  People with others (deaf or speech impediments or strong accents) likely won't be able to use it at all. 

Also Office 2K7 offers more file formats that are compatible with different OS, plus it is fully xml /bxml compliant where 2K3 may not display properly, and Office 2k7 has better file compression than previous versions.. granted that a txt file or rtf file is compressed well enough already, there is less chance of corruption of the file.

By default it uses DOCX which Microsoft has scheduled for replacement in the next version with OOXML (assuming they can actually implement OOXML).  Can you set Office 2007 (easily) to save by default in the older DOC format (or in any of those other formats) or are you going to be producing lots of files that can't be read except by Office 2007 meaning replacing all those older systems (or by a plugin for 2003)?

As for training the system.. the system creates a new file for each user independantly.. You teach the computer your speaking habbits, pronunciation, accent, etc. which is stored in the individual's speech recognition file, which can be transfered to any other computer using a USB drive of 2 GB.

Training time.. 1 day.. about 4 to 6 hours.

Industry specific terminology.. Type the word in, highlight it, right click and select "Train".. Say the word 3 times, the computer now has the word added to your vocabulary.

Punctuation, manually spoken if the sentence is complex, otherwise it uses Office 2K7 build in grammar correction automatically for punctuation.

I use Voice on Windows Vista and Windows 7 all the time.. from making forum posts, browsing the web, opening programs, even aiding in games.

Office 2K7 has the built in Thesaurous, and Voice actually allows you to call it up in mid sentence to choose the word you are actually looking for.

As for other voices.. well I use an earphone mike and I sit right next to the TV, The computer never hears the TV, Radio, my wife talking or my 2 kids, much less my friends.. so picking up someone else is pretty slim unless you are using a crap desktop microphone.. my microphone is $14.99 at walmart and has excellent sound quality.. fits on one ear like a hands free device, and the integrated ausio card and the new sound options provided vy Vista / Windows 7 allows you to cancell out DC background noise (sounds from your computer hardware internally), suppress background noise, offers direct pickup cone for the mic, etc. Background noise is not a problem at all.

Using key words such as Sleep or Listen turns on and off the Voice software from typing what you say.. the only limitation is that the commands have to have about 2 seconds of paused dictation before using the commands, this way you can communicate with others in the office without the system typing everything that you say.

As for using older formats, the purpose of using newer and better formats is because of security. Say Company A and B are producing an almost identical product, Company A has made a great innovation.. someone at Company B knows how to get the schematics from their office software becuase #1, memory leaks, #2 poor security upgrades, #3 compatible format with their software. Using the newer software, since older software hardly ever gets plugins to read the newer formats and using a newer version of the software (which still gets security updates where the older software is due for update cancellation) would offer better corprate network infrastructure security against intrusion, plus the newer formats can't be read by the older software because the plug-ins are not available..

and to send to a company that hasn't upgraded, just resave the doc in a new location with an older file format (as long as the older format can support the new styles of page formatting)...

problem solved... more security and less chance of corruption..

Office 2K7 is designed to integrate 00XML as soon as the bugs are worked out.. Also the new office software is suppose to come out after the release of Windows 7 when ooxml is finished.. so Office 2K7 and Office 2K10 will be similar in functionality, although the 2K10 version will have less memory leak problems than any predecessor, less security vunerabilities, and less chance of file corruption.. IIRC it should be running a continous backup of a doc work in progress in the event of a power spike / outage, so your work is not lost as it currently is in any of the previous versions. Much like IE 8 remembers all the web sites you were on if the browser chashes or you close the application improperly.. It prompts if you want to continue previous session or just go to home page.. Office 2k10 should have this feature integrated as well from my understanding since the OS, when running with UAC turned on, is a virtual environment.. in essance, you would be creating 2 docs at the same time.. one in virtual environment and one at the OS level (administrator) in the event problems occur.. when the file is saved and the application is closed, the virtual document is wiped from system memory and the administrator lvl copy is the one that remains the the saved location.

MS wanted to impliment this in 2K7 edition, however XP was the main stream and XP only runs at the base level, there is no virtual environment in which the OS can automatically back up your work.

Now I do admit with Office 2K7, navigation and commands are quite different from previous versions, but it is a snal with coice command.. you just say "current window, which basically takes the system to the control panel of the app you are working on.. then just give the name of the command.. or if you are unsure of the name of the command, you can just say show numbers and the commands get numbers over them and you just say the number.. if that doesn't help, say Show Number List.. and a small menu pops up showing the number-function that you can look through..

simple and easy.. Vista and Windows 7 are designed to be more hands free OS than predecessors.. MS Live Messenger / MS live call, MS netmeeting, etc are all designed to function under voice command for business calls / meetings.. trow in a web cam, now you have vid calling / conferencing..

Imagine the productivity of people that can multitask.. Dictation of a letter or slots into Excel while filing paperwork using a wireless microphone.. or while getting the boss a report, etc.. or even instructing your computer by voice to enter data on specific software..

I live in a very small town with a population of 25,000 people... even our small hospital is paper free.. everything is stored electronically.. the registration nurse, the triage nurse, and even the doctors in bace, in ER use Vista Ultimate currently with Vioce commands.. they have their wireless cell in one ear which by 1 button press connects to their PC for Voice interaction..

all papers signed in hospital is done on a digital pad with finger print and handwriting..

the only paper the hospital uses is the hard copy for your medical records and your personal copy / information / work excuse.. everything else is digitally kept..

IF a doctor comes in that is unfamiliar with the case.. they have no need to grab a 2" thick folder of your medical history and attempt to read the chicken scratch that doctors call hand writing.. they just pull up your medical record from the hospital server where they can actually read what is entered. If they need to do a case study before treatment, they just load you record into a USB card and study it at home on the laptop or home PC overnight..

It increases their productivity here 100 fold, even though the hospital is understaffed..

Now if they were still using Windows XP or older.. well waiting time in the ER would be horrendous.. wait times now are only at most 2 hours.. before Vista and Voice command, wait time was close to 5 or 6 hours in the ER before a doctor bacame available for you.. Data from lab work is transfered instantaneously instead of someone having to run across the street to get the results.. though the sample has to be run across the street. Imagine having to do that during rush hour.

All this points to haveing newer / faster / better computers and software can only increase productivity.. and if productivity increases, so does your earnings, which means either a) more people can work for the company now because they have the finances to hire people on or b) give raises.

In the case of the hospital here, they saved enough money from their office supply budget with their new system over the last 2 years, along with speeding up the number of patients they can treat, thus increasing income exponentially for them to build 3 new 2 story wings over a block and a half, redo their heli pad, provide garaged parking instead of parking on the street, tec..

If they were still using the old systems at this hospital.. none of this could happen because their productivity would still be 1/3 of what it is now..

Take your profits and multiply them vy 3.. multiply that by 2 years.. now add in the savings from office supplies (paperclips, staples, folders, filing cabnets, reems of paper, pens, pencils, etc) for 2 years..

You get my point.. Sticking with older tech may work for people who hate change or are old fashioned.. but in a productive world.. you need better tech.. both software and hardware wise.
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Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2009, 07:00:55 pm »
Sorry, but anyone still suggesting Vista is missing the point of this thread.

The vast majority of business systems and, even gamers, don't need all of the cpu power being bantered around here. AoC doesn't require 2x295 in SLI. What graphics programs are suggesting 3x SLI (I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just curious what they are)? Pentium dual cores are still manufactured. The world is bigger than just Microsoft, Nvidea, and Intel. Step outside and look around. ;)  

Most businesses don't need the extra power because IT manager "said" they don't need it. The IT manager says this because the manager either does not have the budget or the manpower to implement the upgrade, or both. The IT manager rarely makes this decision based up the business productivity needs of other departments. It is not in his best interest(usually) to respond to those needs until they become critical. It's those same reasons and motivations that currently cause many IT managers to maintain legacy XPpro OS based machines instead of Vista Business or Ultimate OS based machines and NT4 based server networks even thought they know the Vista boxes and Server 03/08 networks are oft times less vulnerable to security exploits are are more effcient for the end user.

Other causes:
Bonuses...
Raises...
Retention...
And an IT department's RIO and Cost of Ownership is not always tied into the other department's RIO and Cost of Ownership.

Then there is the problem of the IT manager dealing with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality" from other non-tech departments. This is especially true when it comes to IT security. As a subject it is seemingly complex and about as exciting as 3 day old tapioca pudding to the non-techie.

I firmly believe that anytime you can, increase productivity and security. Productivity increases shows a tangable return. Address security is like a good door lock and response. You only know it was worth the slightly extra expense when an intrusion attempt or cyber attack occur. Then you're damn relieved you had upgraded.



What programs are you referring to that require system specs that you have quoted? You stated your opinion very well, but you didn't actually address anything that I said, except for possibly the 2nd sentence of my post.

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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2009, 07:05:07 pm »
Sorry, but anyone still suggesting Vista is missing the point of this thread.

The vast majority of business systems and, even gamers, don't need all of the cpu power being bantered around here. AoC doesn't require 2x295 in SLI. What graphics programs are suggesting 3x SLI (I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just curious what they are)? Pentium dual cores are still manufactured. The world is bigger than just Microsoft, Nvidea, and Intel. Step outside and look around. ;)   

You play Age of Conan right?

No you don't have to have a top end PC to play age of conan.. I am saying that you have to have a top end PC to play Age of Conan with full graphics enabled.

Playing with 2 NVidia 8800's on board, I can play with FPS between 28-72 .. but I have to play in DX 9, maximum view distance turned down to 2700 meters instead of 3900 meters, details from distance turned sown to 30%, 3D Ambient Occulusion Quality turned off, grass turned off, particles set to Normal instead of high, AA at 8xQ, (basically 8X AA at 4X demand) etc.. I can enable DX 10 and reduce God Rays, disable grass, turn down water effects and still lose 10 FPS..

IF I was running a GTX 295, my limitation would be my CPU and system memory.. I would have to upgrade to a quad core or an i7 dual core and upgrade to 8 GB system memory and I would still have to turn down DX 10 features in order to maintain 28-72 FPS.. with 2 NVidia GTX 295's I could run with all settings maxed out with an i7 CPU dual core at 3.0 Ghz and 8 GB DDR3 system memory and an independant network card.

AoC is the most demanding game graphically that I have come across to daye.. even Crysis can play at full graphics with full physx enabled on my 2 NVidia 8800 in SLI pulling 95 FPS minimum.. Age of Conan at full settings in DX 10 makes my FPS dros considerably.. as in 8-15 FPS.. and I am running Windows 7, Intel Core 2 @ 2.6 Ghz overclocked to 3.86 Ghz, and 4 GB system RAM DDR2 (not DDR3)..

Now if Age of Conan is not demanding on a system, I don't know what is.. Age of Conan requires a high end gaming rig to play at maximum graphical capability.. the specs I listed above are valid to enable full graphics in Age of Conan and maintain decent FPS in a populated area.. as in an area with 100 or more players present (Kheshatta on the RP-PVP server)

3D and HD editing studios for movies / animation require 3 to 4 GPUs in SLI.. look at Dreamworks behind the scenes some time for a recent movie of theirs.. 4 NVidia 9800 GTX OC 2 with 768 MB gDDR3 in SLI on their editing / production system when putting the movie together.. having to run multiple monitors, 3D HD animation software, 7.1 Surround Sound editing software, Final Production editing software that combines it all together and the playback studio to see final results.. Yes there are jobs and software that are demanding enough to have 3 to 4 cards in SLI.. many games that are new and current require at least 2 cards in SLI.. Age of Conan and Crysis come to mind.. these games are designed for extreme graphical processing that can only be provided by cards in SLI configuration (of X-Fire with ATI/AMD cards.. but you sitll have to DL and install the HAVOC software to enable Physx on their newer cards.. though still hving problems with it in drivers).. as for NVidia.. all cards with 512 MB memory from the 8600 series on up hve the Agia Physx processor built in.. NVidia owns Agia.. and the Physx processors have only gotten getter on NVidia.. the last series of AMD vid cards offers Havoc on their own designed Physx GPU, but as I stated.. many driver problems.. I think the latest driver is the most stable to date.

Anyhow, stating that programs don't need that much horsepower is incorrect and false.. You choose to run a sub par system and don't want to upgrade and expect software to conform to a system that you currently posess.. software innovates as does hardware.. as such programs are more demanding .. I built my system last year.. brand new parts.. currently my system rates a 5.9 on the Windows Performance scale out of a possible 7.9.. my graphics rate at 6.4 by themselves.. Age of conan will play on a minimum of a system rated 5.2, but for full and best performance of the game, you need a rating of 7.6 or 7.7 on the windows PC performance scale.


EDIT : Windows Percormance scale is rated off you slowest piece of hardware.. You can have a 6.4 in graphics but your HDD could rate a 5.9 (SATA config instead of Raid 0 config).. you score would be a 5.9 because of the HDD.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 07:16:48 pm by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
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Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2009, 08:18:03 pm »
You keep bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the points I raised. Also, finding one extreme example doesn't invalidate the statement that a vast majority don't require something. Dreamworks, from your example, needs to stop running gaming cards and start running proper workstation equipment. I'm surprised that they can even run all of their software. Most professional graphics software will run from 3 to 10 times faster on workstation cards because of proper driver support.

Here is an example of AoC running fine without all that GPU power. It does seem that AoC prefers ATI but still not to the point of requiring 2x 295's. Current video drivers would run even better since this was done in july '08 and all cards have gotten faster since then.

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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2009, 10:02:49 pm »
How old is that chart?

In March, Aoc released patch 1.04 which significantly changed texturing and shadowing in game and introduced about a month ago, introducted DirectX 10 with a completely new shader and shadowing schema.. your chard is just a bit outdated.. that chart is relavent to when the game was release through patch 1.03..

1.04 was a significant impact to game graphics and system performance.. plus Funcom is still developing more DirectX 10 content for Age of Conan.. as such a higher impact to the game system.. also they are introducing Physx along with DirectX 10 on a game that uses animation style graphics, thus lowering FPS even more..

ATI is having more performance trouble than NVidia ATM. NVidia and Age of Conan have 2 times released updates together on their respective web sites.. which gives the impression that Funcom is focusing more towards NVidia than AMD cased cards.. That maks sense since Age of Conan advertises NVidia in opening credits.. AMD is attempting to keep up with their faster driver updates than in the past.

Both cards currently perform just about the same with the edge in DirectX 10 and Physx going to NVidia.. however both cards suffer the same impact from the Shader 3.0 (DirectX 9) and Shader 4.0 (DirectX 10) the additional texturing and resizing and physx incorporated into grass and trees that was not there prior to patch 1.04..

Even people with GTX 285 graphics cards w/ 1GB gDDR3 state that they can not operate the game at full graphic resolutions..

Look at some of these people's system specs.. Even they can't run the game at max res.. and some of these results are coming from the game at lowest graphic settings..

http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=119010

http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=118903

http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=118393

Here is a good example of performance in AoC

Quote
with a very good pc(i7 processor, 4870, 6Gb ddr3 1600Mhz, asus high end motherboard) you still don't get aoc to run smoothly, sometimes fps will drop A LOT, like from 70 to 10, for no apparent reason.
Same thing happen on my pc(9800 gt, 4gb ddr2 800, e 8400 cpu) and with another pc (8800 gts 640, e6750 cpu, 4gb ddr2 800)


Quote
The 6000+ is a bottleneck with a 4870x2 and make sure you have activated Catalyst AI or whatever its called to make sure x2 is running and not only on one GPU.
And you need to run Vista 64 or XP 64 anything less will **** up your system.


Quote
Quote
Hi guys ,

i have a question, i'm thinking to come back to AOC.

But how well will it run on my Nvidia Geforce 8600 GT??

Other Specs:

AMD Athlon X2 4200 (2.2 GHZ)
4 GB Ram
Windows Vista 64-bit

Quote
it will run but dont expect wonders from it.

Quote
Really depends on the resolution you are going to play. At 1280*1024 you should be able to play at medium settings!


So as you can see, ever since patch 1.04, the game has become MUCH more demanding graphically.. your chart is several months out of date.

Funcom, developers of Age of Conan are developing on systems running 2 NVidia GTX 295's in SLI and I think their QA systems have the same NVidia or equivalent ATI cards in SLI/X-Fire

See I actually play the game.. I could run Max settings on AoC with a single NVidia 8800 GTX OC 2 with 768 gDDR3 memory before the 1.04 patch..

after the 1.04 patch.. my HDD is accessed a hellovalot more, my CPU runs 1 core at 100% and the other at 65% in mass areas.. I had to go to SLI with a second card just to maintain ~40 FPS at medium settings.. on high and DX 9 with all shaders enabled, FPS drops down to 18 FPS.. in DirectX 10, FPS drops to 8-12 FPS unless I turn off grass and lower particles and disable God Rays.. then FPS is ~26-30.

So you can look at all the charts you want.. DL the game.. FC offers Free Trail currently and let's see your FPS with your rig on max settings.. go through Old Tartania or go to Potain with grass enabled, go to Kheshatta with 40 + people there, go to Ymir's pass with all the trees that have to render..

the only time you get an FPS boost is in dungeons where there are few people, nice but not overly textured walls, no trees and no grass.. and even then you have to turn off 3D Ambient occulusion Quality and set particles to Normal and maybe put shaders to Medium, lower the view distance just a bit and you might pull 60-75 FPS with an NVidia 8800 GTX OC 2 with 768 gDDR3 memory. That is with all other settings set to High.

Sorry to burst your bubble.. testing and playing is mucho proof over a chart that is over a year old.

 Also noticed you skipped over Crysis, another game that is graphically demanding.. You need to have 2 8800's in SLI in order to play with full graphics enabled.. either that or a single NVidia GTX 280 GPU with 1 GB vid memory.

Yes software is becoming that demanding and needing that much horse power.. if you get out of games that are designed for 1998-2003, you will notice that software is much more demanding..

Like Office 2K7.. works best on Vista 64 bit Ultimate edition with Intel Core 2 because the software is multi-threaded / multi-core optimized and is designed for systems running ~2GB memory, preferrably a bit more with a Vista system.. ~3GB on Vista.. though 4GB gives best performance for Vista and Office 2K7..

Many games are coming out in MMOs that will require Much GPU power.. such as The Old Republic.. heck I think that even STO will require the 8800 and 9800 GPUs to be in SLI to be able to keep up with effects and cut scenes..

Also many more games are starting to require DX 10 in order to play them, which means a definate change to Vista as games like AoC will not enable the option for DirectX 10 without the proper OS and proper Vid card.. Installers are starting to sniff the OS stamp and the Vid Card Bios to ensure DX 10 is available before installing, so the hacked version of DX 10 on XP systems won't be enough..

Add to that, Windows7 is DirectX 11.. and the only cards on the market that are DirectX 11 compliant is the GTX 290 and 295 cards and soon software will start requiring DirectX 11 in the OS and Vid Card in order to install.

I stated that these things were coming last year.. no one believed me.. Yet they are happening..

Pretty soon everyone will be running Vista / Windows 7 and using XP as a Dual Boot option for their older games / software.

And many people will hve to upgrade their systems just to run Vista / Windows 7, and then upgrade some more for the software coming out.. IE a modern PC with Moder Graphic capabilities to meet the demands of software coming out.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 10:38:25 pm by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2009, 02:34:36 am »
Here is an example of AoC running fine without all that GPU power. It does seem that AoC prefers ATI but still not to the point of requiring 2x 295's. Current video drivers would run even better since this was done in july '08 and all cards have gotten faster since then.

*sniped pic*

Have to agree w/ pesty on that, i've seen the performance difference between the patches, 1.03 to 1.04 - that chart is simply too out of date to be using as proof for your statement. 
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2009, 03:22:40 am »
I use Voice on Windows Vista and Windows 7 all the time.. from making forum posts, browsing the web, opening programs, even aiding in games.

Now proofread your post for all the errors.  Doubled periods.  Missed capitalizations of first words in sentences.  Misspelled words.  (Note this was written in a text editor without spelling correction etc.)

If you can't save by default (you didn't answer that as far as I can see so I assume that is a no) in a different format then changing to Office 2007 mandates a format change for the company or your workers must remember to do so manually each time.  That means either translating all of your old files to the newer format or having a mixture of formats and risking that at some point in the future you may find old files you can no longer access.

Has Microsoft actually committed to putting OOXML into Office 2007?  I haven't heard that.  If not then it means another format change pushed onto the customers when Office 2010 comes out unless that version can be set to earlier defaults.  Should people really be forced to change formats for Microsofts profitability?

Imagine the productivity of people that can multitask.. Dictation of a letter or slots into Excel while filing paperwork using a wireless microphone.. or while getting the boss a report, etc.. or even instructing your computer by voice to enter data on specific software..

Then based on your post here they would need to sit down and proof read everything they dictated.  Your post had too many errors to make it convincing that you don't need to proofread.  Using up much or all of the time "saved".

Now if they were still using Windows XP or older.. well waiting time in the ER would be horrendous.. wait times now are only at most 2 hours.. before Vista and Voice command, wait time was close to 5 or 6 hours in the ER before a doctor bacame available for you.. Data from lab work is transfered instantaneously instead of someone having to run across the street to get the results.. though the sample has to be run across the street. Imagine having to do that during rush hour.

Sorry but why could you not use XP (or Win 3.11 even) to transfer data across the street rather than use "sneaker net"?  Most of your hospital examples are like that, things that could be done without Vista or Office 2007.

Doctors have been putting their files on computer for years and calling them up that way without Vista.  Why does it suddenly need to be Vista to do it?  The only difference is the voice command and from your example here it seems error prone.

You get my point.. Sticking with older tech may work for people who hate change or are old fashioned.. but in a productive world.. you need better tech.. both software and hardware wise.

Hopefully you got my point, changing just to change is not productive or cost effective.  I'm far from a luddite but I see no reason to adopt something without the adoption being sufficiently valuable to counter the cost.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2009, 04:52:45 am »
n March, Aoc released patch 1.04 which significantly changed texturing and shadowing in game and introduced about a month ago, introducted DirectX 10 with a completely new shader and shadowing schema.. your chard is just a bit outdated.. that chart is relavent to when the game was release through patch 1.03..

1.04 was a significant impact to game graphics and system performance.. plus Funcom is still developing more DirectX 10 content for Age of Conan.. as such a higher impact to the game system.. also they are introducing Physx along with DirectX 10 on a game that uses animation style graphics, thus lowering FPS even more..

ATI is having more performance trouble than NVidia ATM. NVidia and Age of Conan have 2 times released updates together on their respective web sites.. which gives the impression that Funcom is focusing more towards NVidia than AMD cased cards.. That maks sense since Age of Conan advertises NVidia in opening credits.. AMD is attempting to keep up with their faster driver updates than in the past.

Pestalence I can only say that if I were playing a game and a PATCH degraded performance so much I would become a truely irate customer. 

I also wonder about this "partnership" with nVidea, it sounds very suspicious, like when Skypes server wouldn't run on AMD chips.  Makes me wonder if nVidea hasn't paid money to ensure that a game requires their hardware.  I'm against that on principle.

Quote
after the 1.04 patch.. my HDD is accessed a hellovalot more, my CPU runs 1 core at 100% and the other at 65% in mass areas.. I had to go to SLI with a second card just to maintain ~40 FPS at medium settings.. on high and DX 9 with all shaders enabled, FPS drops down to 18 FPS.. in DirectX 10, FPS drops to 8-12 FPS unless I turn off grass and lower particles and disable God Rays.. then FPS is ~26-30.

Splitting the game between those who can and will upgrade hardware (in the current bad economic climate) and those who can't or won't.  Sounds like a bad move for me.  A good way to kill the game off quicker and lose a lot of customers for the next game from the company.

Quote
Also many more games are starting to require DX 10 in order to play them, which means a definate change to Vista as games like AoC will not enable the option for DirectX 10 without the proper OS and proper Vid card.. Installers are starting to sniff the OS stamp and the Vid Card Bios to ensure DX 10 is available before installing, so the hacked version of DX 10 on XP systems won't be enough..

Add to that, Windows7 is DirectX 11.. and the only cards on the market that are DirectX 11 compliant is the GTX 290 and 295 cards and soon software will start requiring DirectX 11 in the OS and Vid Card in order to install.

How many of those games truely need Directx 10 to do what they do?  How many actually enhance game play by use of Directx 10 only features? 

Given the current economic climate forcing gamers to the high end seems to me to be self defeating if not suicidal.  This is especially bad since the forum you linked to has people with those high end machines STILL being unable to get decent and stable performance.

People are using the "downgrade" option to XP and considering it an upgrade because of the performance damage Vista does.  Unless 7 avoids that I forsee the "downgrade" option needing to stay and Microsoft continuing to damage their reputation.  Age of Conan is based on  your posting software released before the hardwae was there to support it.  A foolish mistake for the company.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2009, 09:28:23 am »
It's amazing how little has changed over the year: Nem bagging on all things Microsoft, Pesty and me pointing out his errors...wash, rinse and repeat.

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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2009, 10:14:29 am »
It's amazing how little has changed over the year: Nem bagging on all things Microsoft, Pesty and me pointing out his errors...wash, rinse and repeat.

 :crazy2:

Am I going to have to look up times I defended Microsoft right here?  I've done that too. 

Pestalence made one clear example of the improvements on Vista/7 and that was the voice control/dictation ability and his own post showed how flawed that was.  His post was full of spelling, punctuation and capitalization errors in spite of his vaunted voice dictation so how is it an advantage? 

Add his own admission that Microsoft is changing the default format for Office again with the next version.  Why change to Office 2007 if the next version (due out in what a year?) will render its file format obsolete?  Why not skip it for the next version with a long term format (assuming Microsoft actually implements OOXML).

Then he used Age of Conan as an example of why you need powerful computers but again by his own posting you didn't need it until a patch rendered machines that were previously able to use it crippled.  By his own source even extremely powerful machines don't always work and some of those that do work intermittently.  How does all that computing power enhance the gameplay?  Is it enhanced in anyway beyond pure graphical fluff?  How does crippling machines that worked with the game count as a viable patch? 
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2009, 10:19:33 am »
It's amazing how little has changed over the year: Nem bagging on all things Microsoft, Pesty and me pointing out his errors...wash, rinse and repeat.

 :crazy2:

Am I going to have to look up times I defended Microsoft right here?  I've done that too. 

You have defended the right to 'post about Microsoft', but as for "defending Microsoft", I just don't recall. I could be wrong and I am willing to be prooven so.

 :popcorn: :drink:

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2009, 10:27:38 am »
Nemesis.. on D.net, I type in my posts, as I do on Startrek Gamers and the Xenocorp forums,, AoC, I use a split between Voice and Typing mainly because I post there in mid game when something occurs to me.. as inAlt-Tabbing to browser ...

Voice command for computers has been available since 1997 and has only improved over the years. Many people have never heard or used it because it seemed impractical before due to the problems you mentioned.. Those problems have been solved a few years back by Dragon Naturally Speaking or by Why Type Legal or Why Type Medical or Microsoft's Whisper Speach, etc.

In Vista, Microsoft integrated Voice command / text with readback capability into the OS. I have a feeling it is a partnership with either Dragon or the one by L&H.

Granted the MS still uses Microsoft SAM readback (or the female voice) which sounds too robotic, but there are upgrade voice packages available for Download.

I took the 3 min to dictate a document in Office 2K7 for you to see how it handles spelling and grammar.

I even saved it on the old .Doc format for you.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 11:03:09 am by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2009, 11:02:43 am »
Nemesis.. on D.net, I type in my posts, as I do on Startrek Gamers and the Xenocorp forums,, AoC, I use a split between Voice and Typing mainly because I post there in mid game when something occurs to me.. as inAlt-Tabbing to browser ...


I had to go by your words as quoted below.  When you said "forum posts" the natural assumption is THIS forum is included in that.

Quote
I use Voice on Windows Vista and Windows 7 all the time.. from making forum posts, browsing the web, opening programs, even aiding in games.


You have defended the right to 'post about Microsoft', but as for "defending Microsoft", I just don't recall. I could be wrong and I am willing to be prooven so.


I have an easy one to look up and link to because I remember using an uncommon word to praise Microsoft.  It was even in connection with a prerelease of Vista.  Link
 
My comment for those who may not want to click on the link.

Quote
Windows Vista is in beta testing.  Beta testing is about finding and patching flaws.  The only thing surprising here is Microsoft patching the existing beta version rather than waiting for the next beta release.  For patching it quickly rather than risking the beta testers security kudos to Microsoft.


Look back through this thread and get reminded of some things. 

1/ Mostly I am questioning the automatic MUST upgrade NEW is BETTER mentality, not criticizing Microsoft or Vista or Windows 7.  The patch I criticized was a game patch (I don't know the company so maybe there I am criticizing MS).

2/ There are several others directly attacking Vista/Windows 7.

Why am I wrong to question these things? 

My major beefs with Microsoft come in several things. 

1/ Unethical and illegal business practices.

2/ DRM

3/ Vendor lockin. 

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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2009, 11:22:16 am »
What is the problem with DRM? I have had no problems with any Media I have attempted to use on any MS OS.

DRM is only there to prevent pirating and even that doesn't do much. DRM mainly checks, using Media Player, to verify that you are ripping music from a purchased CD.. and there are hundreds of programs out there that bypass DRM no matter what OS you are on.

Digital Rights Management is basically a Joke.. It is ineffectual and basically Hyped up to the point that it is designed to drive away those inclined to pirate music and movies.. in other words.. Massive Fail for Microsoft..

DRM is also there to help you, to put a Digital marker into your work that can link to an online license.. the content should have a unique license identifier and the end server should check to make sure no 2 copies being used at same time has the same identifier.. sort of like how SFC identifies the CD key for the Dynaverse to prevent duplicate copies from being online at once.. to prevent piracy.. however many people / companies do not use DRM as intended, thus helping to promote piracy.

DRM's effect is only against people like you, keeping those that don't actualy experience or use it away.

Now WGA is a bigger reason to not use MS.. however all it does is verify that your CD key is valid for your OS.. and even then you can still use your system even if the WGA finds your key invalid, you just can't get the updates to your OS if the key is invalid currently and your system gets a Not Ginuine logo stamped in the center of the screen and on the tool bar. Does not hinder performance nor does it prevent you from using your software, except Media Player 11 and Media Player 12 and possibly Windows Media Center.

So long as your CD key for the OS is valid, then you should have no problems at all.

Vendor lock in? I don't get that.. Apple machines can run MS OS, Linux, OSX, etc.. as can Intel / AMD systems.. Hardware is no longer a limitation for the different companies.. As for software companies, it is their choice to develop for a particular OS or for all OS systems.

So I don't get Vendor Lock-in.

as for #1, MS has done this in the past, however their company has had many, many changes.. AOL now works properly with IE and MS products as well as Netscape.. and I haven't come across any software that MS is intentionally blocking from working on their OS systems.. only trying to get people to come into the 21st century with their software by dropping OS support for outdated / broken technology (MS Visual C++ 6.0 comes to mind as well as DirectX 7 and 8).

So if MS still has some practices that may be inclined to be illegal.. MS is changing these practices.. even though Microsoft may not change them until after a lawsuit.

I too don't agree on monopolizing the market and preventing others work from operating because MS doesn't want them to.. however that practice from my experiences has been over since 2001.

Anyhow, MS is attempting to gain grace in the world's market which in itself forces change.

Maybe instead of looking at how MS use to be.. look at how they are today and the changes the company is making.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 11:34:23 am by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2009, 11:48:33 am »
What is the problem with DRM? I have had no problems with any Media I have attempted to use on any MS OS.

Maybe later I'll post on this in more length but just a few short comments.

Playsforsure.  Microsoft has already tried to drop it which would have cut off those customers who had already paid.  Other companies have done similar things.

XP activation.  Microsoft cut my brother-in-law off when he did a reinstall and until he A/Got nasty and B/ Swore he would install Redhat Linux on all 6 of his machines they were adamant he had to buy a new copy.  At that point they suddenly decided his copy was legal.  At the time he was selling Windows based PCs and servicing them.

What happens when the XP activation server is shut down?  It is only in the last year that I moved my mother off Win98SE (it did everything she needed) and then only because the machine died.  So how many XP users will be cut off when they need to activate and Microsoft says "Buy a new computer we don't activate XP any more". 

My computers get rebuilt over and over again.  Microsoft interprets that as new machines and insist on my paying them again for what I already bought.

Windows 2000 Pro, blocked me from making a perfectly legal (in Canada) copy of a DVD that I owned for my own use calling it "illegal".  Microsoft is NOT the police and they have no right to try and control my usage of what I bought.
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Offline Dash Jones

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2009, 11:53:25 am »
the PROBLEM MS has done, is one done out of GREED.  For records, EVERYTHING should be backwards compatible.  Period.  Sure, you can get the newest and greatest if it really IS BETTER...but if it is resource hog for no other reason than to be a resource hog...then it's not really better...just sloppier and stupider and being sold to those who will spend money on the NEW BLING.

This was one of the BIG problems MS had with WinVista.  It felt invincible, that people would be forced to take ANYTHING they put out.  Hence they put out shoddy work that was a resource hog, and expected people to pay more for it than other systems that worked just fine.

If anything, Win7 is a reboot of WinVista in the format it should have been in the first place, after MS has gotten a slightly bloody nose for complete arrogance on their part.
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2009, 12:50:30 pm »

I have an easy one to look up and link to because I remember using an uncommon word to praise Microsoft.  It was even in connection with a prerelease of Vista.  Link
 
My comment for those who may not want to click on the link.

Quote
Windows Vista is in beta testing.  Beta testing is about finding and patching flaws.  The only thing surprising here is Microsoft patching the existing beta version rather than waiting for the next beta release.  For patching it quickly rather than risking the beta testers security kudos to Microsoft.


January of 2006...and that post is not an endorsement, but an expression of surprise. 3 years ago, Nem. I'd say when it comes to anything MS, you are decidedly slanted against it.

But! Given that decidely overwhelming slant, you have done your best to be a fair moderator. Please do not think I'm trying to imply otherwise.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 01:16:11 pm by toasty0 »
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2009, 01:08:25 pm »

I have an easy one to look up and link to because I remember using an uncommon word to praise Microsoft.  It was even in connection with a prerelease of Vista.  Link
 
My comment for those who may not want to click on the link.

Quote
Windows Vista is in beta testing.  Beta testing is about finding and patching flaws.  The only thing surprising here is Microsoft patching the existing beta version rather than waiting for the next beta release.  For patching it quickly rather than risking the beta testers security kudos to Microsoft.


January of 2006...and that post is not an endorsement, but an expression of surprise. 3 years ago, Nem. I'd say when it comes to anything MS, you are decidedly slanted against it.

But! Given that decidely overwhelming slant, you have done your best to be a fair moderator. Please do not think I'm trying to imply otherwise.


I don't think you understand my surprise Toasty. 

Can you name ANY other company that have EVER patched a public beta rather than just waiting for the next build?  I can't.  I would express the same surprise if the version of Linux I use (Mint KDE) had released a patch for a beta. 

The surprise was that ANYONE not specifically Microsoft would go to the effort of patching a beta.  It just ISN'T done by anyone to my knowledge, you wait and release a new build and tell testers "deal with it until the next build".   You might rush the next beta a bit but never ever in my experience patch the current one.

The reason for that example was I could easily find it due to remembering saying Kudos (and running across it recently when searching for something else).  Not many posts use that word.  Besides which we have enough ardent defenders of all things Microsoft that I rarely need to speak for them. 
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Offline Tus-XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2009, 01:24:32 pm »
Pestalence I can only say that if I were playing a game and a PATCH degraded performance so much I would become a truely irate customer. 

I can answer that one, they added more bells and whistles since there was some head room available (mainly doubled and tripled the amount of grass rendered and a few other nice lil things) - so i don't mind all that much, just wish there was a way to actually control the amount of grass rendered... arg lol
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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2009, 02:25:22 pm »
Quote
XP activation.  Microsoft cut my brother-in-law off when he did a reinstall and until he A/Got nasty and B/ Swore he would install Redhat Linux on all 6 of his machines they were adamant he had to buy a new copy.  At that point they suddenly decided his copy was legal.  At the time he was selling Windows based PCs and servicing them.

MS has shut down 98% of the VLK's that were out there, mainly because Universities that used VLK's in their classes were learked on to the net.. ~1,000,000 VLK's have been canned due to Piracy.. MS does it Blanket style instead of each individual key.

Quote
What happens when the XP activation server is shut down?  It is only in the last year that I moved my mother off Win98SE (it did everything she needed) and then only because the machine died.  So how many XP users will be cut off when they need to activate and Microsoft says "Buy a new computer we don't activate XP any more". 

Court order and Microsoft have both stated that MS can nt sut down Activation servers.. the only thing that they can do is cancel updte support.. Worries on this are unfounded.

Quote
My computers get rebuilt over and over again.  Microsoft interprets that as new machines and insist on my paying them again for what I already bought.

CD keys are designed for 1 computer system only.. Now each key can be used again after 120 days. Your CMos and Bios stamp is registered on the MS server along with your CD Key.. after 120 days, the stamps are deleted from the servers, thus allowing you to use your CD Key again.

Now if you install XP on a system, and then all of a sudden decide to change the main board.. that is effectively putting the OS on a 2nd machine.. which is why there are activation problems.. Different Cmos and Bios stamps..

The goal of MS is for people to buy 1 copy for each machine that people own, not using 1 copy of the OS for 15 Machines.. that is what purchasing a VLK is for.

Quote
Windows 2000 Pro, blocked me from making a perfectly legal (in Canada) copy of a DVD that I owned for my own use calling it "illegal".  Microsoft is NOT the police and they have no right to try and control my usage of what I bought.

Actually they do to comply with the laws of that country.. Maybe Canada stated that you have to have a certain license or version of the DVD based on region or counrty in order to make a legal backup up of the DVD.. In that event, maybe Canada requested MS to incluse special rules based on individuals IP addresses.. IE if your IP originates in Canada and the DVD is Region 1 US and the EULA pertains to US Consumers, then concievably, your national government could request MS to block copying of the DVD.. Or you can just get a program like 321 Studios DVD X-Copy Pro which doesn't recognize DRM.. Simple work around.

Quote
It is only in the last year that I moved my mother off Win98SE (it did everything she needed) and then only because the machine died.

I can't believe you let your mother remain in the stone age with that buggy OS for so long.. Heck, I bought my sister a Laptop in 2001 just so that she could get off Win 98 SE.. She has been eternally grateful..

Then I built her a desktop 2 years ago and have her dual booting Vista / XP and she has been extremely grateful for not having to wait 5 min for Windows to start up or 5 min for her dial up to connect, or 2 min for the browser to pop up, or 4 min for Outlook Express to load.. it is all almost instantaneous now and saves her time and fustration.. She is able to do many, many more things with her computer than she could with the old junker she use to use.. she has even gotten into doing animated signatures, video clips, power point shows, and is now teaching herself how to edit home DVD videos...

Before all she could do is check email and browse the web.. what a dreary way to think about the only use of a computer is.. My sister now cherishes the capabilities of her newer system since the older one did not have the horse power to properly edit home made DVDs.

By not upgrading, you only limit your possibilities. I am sure your mother is thinking Wow, this thing in fast.. Imagine what she could do on a modern system.. baybe she would want to expand her use of her computer to something more than a post office and library.



Quote
If anything, Win7 is a reboot of WinVista in the format it should have been in the first place, after MS has gotten a slightly bloody nose for complete arrogance on their part.

Windows 7 is basically Vista Service Pack 2 with a slightly changed GUI..

There is still no backwards compatibility for outdated software that is not coded according to industry standards, there is no built in support for programs written in MS VB6 .. DirectX 8 and older is emulated under DirectX 11, as long as the conding method of the software followed industry standard, not freelanced code (SFC comes to mind for Freelanced code)..

Basically, MS is attempting to get people to stop using buggy software.

Windows 7 does fix some security problems and has sealed up many memory leaks..

Also Windows 7 is a Beta currently, yet you get updates / patches the 2nd Thursday of each month and criticals when necessary.

Quote
Hence they put out shoddy work that was a resource hog

First, I agree that Vista had numerous problems out the gate.. many of which were solved with SP 1.. As for Memory Hog.. well if you don't know how to reduce your system settings, then yes Vista can be a hog.. with Vista running full graphic eye candy available, it requires 1.5 GB to run.. If you turn it down to Vista Basic lvl, then the requirement is 1.1 GB.. If you turn it down to XP lvl, then the requirement is 800 Mb, if you turn it down to Win 98 lvl, the the requirement is 550 MB..

So where is the resource hog.. the only Hog is someone running max settings on a sub par system.

Quote
than other systems that worked just fine.

Other systems that work just fine are systems running outdated software and components.. now when a new piece of software comes out that someone wants to put on their system, and they see the requirements stating "Windows Vista /Windows 7 - DirectX 10/11 Required) then people may realize that their system is just way too old.. or they just have to stick with the outdated software that isn't doing what they want or gives the features that they may need.

Let's say Mom has Authoritis in her hands and can't hardly type, but she keeps in contact with her family via Email. Do you want her typing and causing her pain, or do you want her dictating and resting her hands?

Now your options is to go out and see if you can buy a Copy of Dragon that is still able to work on the outdated machine, or you can Upgrade the system to something modern with the capability built in..

and upgrading would be a win / win situation as she would be able to do so much more with the computer.. just getting a Voice Command program = Win / Lose.. the system is already slow, and how you just taxed it even more, making it slower by putting Voice Command on it for her, plus she wouldn't be able to take advantage of all the Newer system capabilities.. sure she could use Voice to create Emails.. great.. but now she has to wait 8 min for Outlook Express to load instead of the old 5 min. Just an example...

I love the mentality here of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.".. well the reason for updates and newer software is because something was broken to begin with.. You may not have noticed it before, but something was broken.. memory leaks, driver conflicts, Random Crashes that Vista and XP suffers from.. Fixed in Windows 7.. Plus Windows 7 can use drivers from Vista or Windows 7.. basically the same OS.. just a bit different GUI.

Now with XP, you had to do some configuring with some software in order to get it working correctly on XP (Dominion wars comes to mind here.. It isn't suppose to work on NT environment / Kernel like XP / Vista / Windows 7).. Dominion Wars absolutely will not work on Vista or Windows 7.. the OS's have better identification to software to prevent incompatibilities.

Vista may take a bit of configuring to get older programs working as well because of the UAC virtual Environment.. SFC comes to mind (excluding Dynaverse).. On Windows 7.. just install and play (Excluding Dynaverse)..

So many incompatibility issues have been solved with Windows 7, but there are still compatibility problems with using Freelanced programming code that came from a buggy compiler (SFC using Won Server coding, edited in MS Visual C++ 6.0 using freelanced code).. as such, programs that uses coding like this (SFC) may have limited functionality or improper netowrking / updating..

This will either make programmers to use proper coding techniques or switch to programming to a more forgiving environment..

However with the market MS currently has, developers will probably update their programming tools and or older software to conform to industry standards for programming and functionality..

People who use Visual Basic 6 as their only programmig tool since 1998, well they will hve to get either the Free DL of Visual Studio 2K8 .NET Basic and learn the industry standard.. or keep on plugging away at VB 6 for ancient computers and hope against hope that computers and OS will stop for some miraculous reason from advancing further.. and still put out shoddy apps due to the bugs in VB 6.

The mentality of "I just don't want to upgrade" is fine for some.. stay behind and stick with old software.. and when you company is in the red, or your MSN Messenger is no longer compatible with Microsoft Live Messenger.. maybe then you will upgrade.. but to stay current.. systems should be replaced every 2 to 3 years.. or have the capability to upgrade to the next gen tech coming out.. much like the i7 980 main boards.. the PCIE slots on those boards are PCIE 2.0 withich is designed for older PCIE cards (x8, x16) and the newer ones that are x32 (v2.0 PCIE). Boards like this are designed with forward capabilities built in.. not just limited upgrades based on current tech.

It's not a matter of keeping up with the Jonses.. it is a matter of functionality and capability.. So if you wanted to play a game like Age of Conan.. Could your system handle it, or would you have to build a new rig.. what are you going to do in 2 years when all software becomes as demanding as AoC for normal applications?

I'm predicting it now.. as is ToastyO.. XP may be around for a while yet.. but you will see it more and more as a Dual boot option, not a Down Grade. And then it will fade away.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2009, 03:20:53 pm »
What is the problem with DRM? I have had no problems with any Media I have attempted to use on any MS OS.

Surely you have read about DRM issues in the last few years?  Not all from Microsoft of course.

Microsoft admitted that DRM was a significant part of the performance penalty of Vista.  It is always running.

For other companies.  Sony's infamous music CD that put a root kit on your system and removing it disabled your CD and DVD drives  (It also apparently used open source code illegally).  Various games where the DRM blocks the game from running at all for some people.

BluRay has a feature (which presumbably Microsoft honours) that allows the producer to include a list of "insecure devices" and forbid the system to play their disks if you have one of those devices - even those you might already own and have been able to play previously.  You can be compelled to replace some of your hardware or be unable to use disks you legitimately bought and own.

Activation and WGA you know of.

DRM's effect is only against people like you, keeping those that don't actualy experience or use it away.

I already mentioned Windows 2000Pro blocking my copying of a DVD that I had the right to copy.

I have 4 computers in this room.  Two Linux, 1 Win2KPro and one (given to me) WinXP Pro.  I see DRM and there is no advantage to me.  It gets in the way and causes legitimate users problems.  I could easily (except for my morals and ethics getting in the way) pirate the DRM'ed stuff instead I stand on my principles and object and oppose DRM and avoid it as much as I can.

So I don't get Vendor Lock-in.

That is a complex topic.  Did you follow any of Microsofts lobbying to keep governments from choosing to standardize on ODF instead of DOC?  Did you follow the recurring scandals around the world over OOXML being rammed through ISO? 

How about those parts of OOXML that say things like "Do this like Office 95" without defining it?  Undefined elements that only one company can know how it works should not be in a PUBLIC STANDARD.

How about the recent TomTom lawsuit?  Part of that was TomToms Linux can read the FAT file system which MS has a (very questionable) patent on.  If Microsoft could get FAT reading capability out of Linux then most (if not all) digital cameras can't be connected to Linux any more. 

Consider Steve Ballmers last few years of FUD spreading about how a typical Linux distribution violates Microsoft patents (he even says how many but refuses to state which ones).  Sounds a lot like McCarthy's "I have a LIST" speeches.  Claims but no facts.  The open source community has repeatedly asked which ones so they can cease violating those which are valid.  Microsoft refuses to tell. Why not tell if it is the truth?

Note software patents are not valid in Canada.  Neither is the DMCA so I can legally break DRM here without issue.

as for #1, MS has done this in the past, however their company has had many, many changes.. AOL now works properly with IE and MS products as well as Netscape.. and I haven't come across any software that MS is intentionally blocking from working on their OS systems.. only trying to get people to come into the 21st century with their software by dropping OS support for outdated / broken technology (MS Visual C++ 6.0 comes to mind as well as DirectX 7 and 8).

Sorry but I don't have your faith in convicted criminals claiming to have reformed.  Especially considering subsequent convictions.

Even during the DOJ vs Microsoft after testifying that they don't change Windows to damage competitors they discussed changing Windows to hurt the Palm OS in favour of WinCE.  They were trying to ensure that you couldn't effectively use Palm as easily as WinCE in spite of their prior conflicting statements to the judge.

In the DOJ vs Microsoft resolution they were required to document things.  The documentation is STILL not judged adequate.  Why are they above the law? 

In the EU vs Microsoft they were also ordered to document things.  They failed and attacked the "judge" of their compliance, even though he was from a list that they drew up as acceptable to them.  They further claimed that they COULD NOT create the documentation.  Only when the EU escalated the fines did they produce usable documents, so much for could not.  They also tried to create licensing that would have prevented Linux from using the documentation (specifically anti GPL phrases).

Then there is the strange case of netbooks.  Why is it that makers of netbooks sell models that have Windows on and different configurations with Linux?  Why are they complicating their manufacturing?  It can't be more of Microsoft forbidding selling identical models that have Window and those that don't? 

Just recently Microsoft was convicted (and did not appeal) of illegal price fixing in Germany.  What was that about reformed?

Then there was the Creative Labs contract where Creative Labs had to agree not to sell competitors products. Again they blamed one guy for that.  It wasn't the company it was a mistake by one guy.  One guy who apparently can create contracts without going through the legal department?  Fishy.

I too don't agree on monopolizing the market and preventing others work from operating because MS doesn't want them to.. however that practice from my experiences has been over since 2001.

Why was Vista's CD/DVD burning capability set to default to a format that nothing but Microsoft could read?  Why though you can choose another interoperable format could you not set another format as default?

Why has Microsoft fought tooth and nail to block Governments from using Open Document Format?  Even going so far as to claim that only Star Office/Open Office can use that format and that they (and their proprietary DOC format) would be blocked from bidding on contracts?  They subsequently sponsored an ODF plug in once it was clear they had to have one, which demonstrates the lie they told.

Just like any other criminal if Microsoft wants to be trusted they must EARN that trust by exemplary behavior.  I haven't seen it. If they had been behaving properly they would not keep having governments take them to court.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2009, 03:30:21 pm »
MS has shut down 98% of the VLK's that were out there, mainly because Universities that used VLK's in their classes were learked on to the net.. ~1,000,000 VLK's have been canned due to Piracy.. MS does it Blanket style instead of each individual key.

Not a VLK.  Home systems, built for individual sale.

Court order and Microsoft have both stated that MS can nt sut down Activation servers.. the only thing that they can do is cancel updte support.. Worries on this are unfounded.

Most recent I heard was a statement from Microsoft that they were "likely" to release a fix to deactivate activation.  That was not a legally binding commitment.  Good to hear the government is making them behave at least a little.

CD keys are designed for 1 computer system only.. Now each key can be used again after 120 days. Your CMos and Bios stamp is registered on the MS server along with your CD Key.. after 120 days, the stamps are deleted from the servers, thus allowing you to use your CD Key again.

Now if you install XP on a system, and then all of a sudden decide to change the main board.. that is effectively putting the OS on a 2nd machine.. which is why there are activation problems.. Different Cmos and Bios stamps..

The goal of MS is for people to buy 1 copy for each machine that people own, not using 1 copy of the OS for 15 Machines.. that is what purchasing a VLK is for.

Microsoft's desires are irrelevant.  The LAW allows me to install it on one system at a time.  Microsoft has no legal right to change that.  Microsoft is trying to use the EULA to write their own laws.  A EULA you don't see until after you have paid for it.  A EULA that they reserve the right to change at each patch to fix a FLAW that should be fixed without any changes of your ownship terms.

The EULA concept has yet to be tested in court. Individual terms have been overturned.

Actually they do to comply with the laws of that country.. Maybe Canada stated that you have to have a certain license or version of the DVD based on region or counrty in order to make a legal backup up of the DVD.. In that event, maybe Canada requested MS to incluse special rules based on individuals IP addresses..

No.  The law as currently interpreted allows me to not only back up my DVDs but I can legally download them.  I choose not to do the downloads for ethical reasons.

I can't believe you let your mother remain in the stone age with that buggy OS for so long.. Heck, I bought my sister a Laptop in 2001 just so that she could get off Win 98 SE.. She has been eternally grateful..

If your mother had a 15 year old car in perfect condition with 10,000 miles on it would you scrap it and buy her a brand new car which would do nothing more for her?  That is the equivalent of what you would advise me to do. 

For the amount she used it and the type of usage 98SE was fine.  Why scrap what is perfectly functional for its purpose?  If I had built her a top of the line machine it wouldn't have been used any more or done any more.  It would have wasted money for no purpose.

She had my Linux laptop for a couple of months till I was given and rebuilt the 2 XP machines, one for her and one for me.  Neither would handle Vista but both are capable with XP for what they are needed for.  The same of course applies to the Win200Pro machine, capable for what it is used for.
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Offline Bonk

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2009, 03:34:48 pm »
aside (Vista bitch): I only recently realised that Vista can download files from the internet faster than it can copy them locally. WTF? (e.g. yesterday a subversion checkout of scribus finished in about 4 minutes, then a local copy of the source tree took about 12 minutes!)

Offline Bonk

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2009, 03:55:50 pm »
Regarding old vs new in this discussion in general...

I was perfectly happy with my old PIII 1000MHz WinXP system for 8 years. Had I not bought two new systems recently I probably would still be - but after having used Vista on a dual core AMD Athlon 64 at 1.9GHz for some time now, I do not think I could go back to my old system as my primary client machine.

Yes, the old machine did the job, but I did not know what I was missing until I was exposed to the newer hardware and software. Vista is still a step forward even though it has many irritations.

That said, I took vista off my new testing server box and put XP on it. I also multi-boot my laptop among Vista, XP and Kubuntu.

The reason? Legacy app compatibility. That is ultimately where Vista fell down. Windows 7 will have similar limitations. The design decision, I surmise, is that hardware costs are low enough to make virtualisation practical for legacy apps. That would be fine but 3D hardware virtualisation has way to go (i.e. games will still suck virtualised).

Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2009, 04:03:36 pm »
If your mother had a 15 year old car in perfect condition with 10,000 miles on it would you scrap it and buy her a brand new car which would do nothing more for her?  That is the equivalent of what you would advise me to do. 

Do nothing more for her? Improved horse power, better fuel milage, less maintainence, availability of parts if something breaks down without having to spend an arm and a leg for..

Breakdown : Synthetic Oil for new model car compared to Conventional oil for Old car.. Synthetic Oil for top quality (15 K miles.. IE 1 oil change a year) .. $8 per quart x 5 quarts = $40 + $10 for filter designed to work with the Synthetic oil.. Cost = $50 + tax for 1 year .. Conventional Oil, using a good brand(say Mobile or Castroil) $3.90 / quart x 5 quarts =   $18.50 + $4 for appropriate oil filter = $22.50 per oil change x 4 changes per year (every 3000 miles or every 3 months, whichever happens first) = $89.00 + tax.. Money overspent = $39.

Fuel Milage.. old car gets 22 on highway, 18 in town with AC off.. new car gets 28 on highway, 24 in town with AC on..

Going by in town milage .. you get + 6 miles per gallon.. but apples to apples, you get 16 MPG in town with old car with AC on.. 24 Miles per gallon in town with AC on with new car.. difference of 8 Miles per gallon.. After 3 tanks of gas, you save 1 gallon.. average 1 tank every 2 weeks.. 26 tanks a year.. 26 / 3 = 8.7 gallons saved x $3.00 per gallon = $26.10 per year savings..

Total saved so far = $65.10 .. Just an example of what a newer car can do for her per year.. This isn't counting Tune Ups at every 10,000 miles (old car) compared to tune ups at every 100,000 miles (new cars).. Transmission service every 24,000 miles or 2 years (old car) compared to every 10 years or 100,000 miles (new car).. Etc.

Now imagine how much she would have saved over the last 12 years if she had a car with the newer fuel injection systems and Synthetic Oil requirements.. just fuel and Oil changes.. not counting other maintainence.. $65.10 x 12 = $781.20 that could have gone into her savings / retireement fund.. now compound that with the interest that could have gained.. = Total lost.. And stating the car was 15 years olkd, but the new milage systems came out in 1997.. that is 3 years difference in car models.. = Trade in.. = not much difference in price. = Completely affordable and still saving money over the expenses of the older model.

Yep.. It would do nothing for her, except save her money in the long run.. in the case of computers, it would save her time.. she isn't getting any younger.

Ever think that she doesn't do more because the system isn't capable of doing more? Have you shown her all the capabilities of the system? Have you introduced her to different options that may coincide with her hobbies?

As for as transfer speeds.. Vista is designed for optimal performance on a Raid 0 config, not just a standard SATA connection.


Also, during a DL, the files is saved to a temp folder first, then transfered to your save directory.. CRC checks for corruption only if file is being opened

Transfering from drive to drive, file is copied to temp directory, transfered to save directory while being compared to original file for corruption.. This doubles Read / write operations.. plus file is CRC checked after copy is done.. and in the case of Cut and Paste, they system has to delete the old file after transfer, which is part of the transfer protocal.. Copy / paste is just a second or 2 faster.

Like I stated.. it is much faster on a Raid 0 config instead of a regular SATA connect.. which is much faster than EIDE connect or Ultra IDE connect...

A Raid 0 setup is about the same speed as the DL.. give or take 1 to 2 seconds.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 04:51:52 pm by Cptn_Pestalence_XC »
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2009, 04:04:56 pm »
I was perfectly happy with my old PIII 1000MHz WinXP system for 8 years. Had I not bought two new systems recently I probably would still be - but after having used Vista on a dual core AMD Athlon 64 at 1.9GHz for some time now, I do not think I could go back to my old system as my primary client machine.

Yes, the old machine did the job, but I did not know what I was missing until I was exposed to the newer hardware and software. Vista is still a step forward even though it has many irritations.

August 2007 I installed LinuxMint KDE, in mid September 2007 I realized that it had seduced me away from my old system which hadn't booted in weeks.  It did everything "good enough" except play SFC (thats on the Win2k machine).  I didn't realize how much better I liked it until a while back when I had an "issue" with the Linux machine and had to use the XP machine for a day while solving me screwup.  I kept going to do things that the XP machine just didn't do that way and it was very frustrating.  It wasn't the computing power but the interface.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2009, 04:14:36 pm »
If your mother had a 15 year old car in perfect condition with 10,000 miles on it would you scrap it and buy her a brand new car which would do nothing more for her?  That is the equivalent of what you would advise me to do. 

Do nothing more for her? Improved horse power, better fule milage, less maintainence, availability of parts if something breaks down without having to spend an arm and a leg for..

Yep.. It would do nothing for her, except save her money. in the long run.. in the case of computers, it would save her time.. she isn't getting any younger.

Look back at the numbers.  With a car with that little mileage, fuel savings (even if FREE and a low MP/G vehicle before that) would not pay for a new car, neither would the non existent repair bills.  How could you pay more for repairs than replacing the whole car? 

For her use the system performance was virtually instantaneous.  A dual quad core with 16 GB or RAM and the fastest RAID system possible wouldn't have done more for her.  It did everything she DESIRED and fast.  Performance was not an issue. 
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Offline toasty0

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2009, 04:18:39 pm »
And if you're a really cautious guy you use RAID 1+0.  :multi:
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Offline Pestalence_XC

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2009, 05:27:48 pm »
I have 4 computers in this room.  Two Linux, 1 Win2KPro and one (given to me) WinXP Pro.  I see DRM and there is no advantage to me.  It gets in the way and causes legitimate users problems.  I could easily (except for my morals and ethics getting in the way) pirate the DRM'ed stuff instead I stand on my principles and object and oppose DRM and avoid it as much as I can.

Need a list of software that allows you to rip your DVD's on any windows system without worrying about DRM?

321 Studios DVD-XCopy Pro
Blaze media Pro
Clone DVD 2
Cucusoft Ultimate DVD & Video converter suite
WinAVI v9.0


I could list more.. but these are the main ones I use.

As far as Windows Media player defaults.. sure you can change it.. Just install a Codec Pack.. for Vista / Windows 7, I suggest Sharks007's packs.. they are set up for x32 and x64 respectively.. once installed, Windows media Player can record / save in almost any format except Real and Quicktime.. although they do have separate DL's to plug in to Media Player for those formats.. but the plug ins don't work well with the browser player.. which is why they are separate from the package.

I do a lot of Video editing on my system.. mostly converting old VHS to HD-DVD.. so the horse power is nice.. a conversion takes a total of 3 1/2 hours.. 2 to play the movie and record in Windows Media Center through my HD TV Tuner.. then 1 hour for my software to convert the Analog video to Digital and then to HD.. after that.. 25 Min to burn to a 4 GB DVD (or 40 min for 8 GB DL-DVD for movies longer than 2 hours).

Burn labels on to disk with Lightscribe.. Print a Cover from the scanned VHS box cover.. and put it on my shelf for me to view when my wife is awake and in the mood for a movie.

Couldn't do that properly on an XP system.. not enough horsepower and memory limitations in XP.. took forever if I really wanted to do that.. about 7 to 8 hours for the complete process on XP.. Granted Hardware has something to do with it, but Vista is designed for Multi-Media.. XP isn't, unless you have XP MCE 2K5. And even then 1/3 of the options are missing from XP.
"You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2009, 05:58:35 am »
At a couple points in this thread claims were made that Microsoft has reformed.  One of the sites I read had a link to this PDF from the European Union (March 31st 2009) listing past and current issues with Microsoft.  I haven't read it through yet myself but the table of contents lists a cross section of their behaviour.  Section 3 subsection C is entitled "Microsoft's ongoing misconduct has sparked further European Commission Investigations".
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline toasty0

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2009, 08:21:28 am »
At a couple points in this thread claims were made that Microsoft has reformed.  One of the sites I read had a link to this PDF from the European Union (March 31st 2009) listing past and current issues with Microsoft.  I haven't read it through yet myself but the table of contents lists a cross section of their behaviour.  Section 3 subsection C is entitled "Microsoft's ongoing misconduct has sparked further European Commission Investigations".


BFD and I IC OCD here.
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2009, 11:45:13 am »
BFD and I IC OCD here.

Anyone have a Text Speak to English Dictionary?
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2009, 01:22:56 am »
It's SOP 4 M$ ;D

http://jan.freedomblogging.com/2009/04/09/oc-firm-wins-388-million-patent-lawsuit-against-microsoft/11585/

<snip>
O.C. firm wins $388 million patent lawsuit against Microsoft
April 9th, 2009, 8:33 am · Post a Comment · posted by Jan Norman, small-business columnist
If Romulans aren't cowards, then why do they taste like chicken?

Offline Bonk

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2009, 02:47:41 pm »
BFD and I IC OCD here.

Anyone have a Text Speak to English Dictionary?

Best I could do was:
Big F'n Dog and I Integrated Circuit Obsessive Compulsive Disorder here.

Which left me rather confused. ;D

Sorry Toasty0, but I did not get it either. What do the acronyms stand for?

Offline toasty0

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2009, 04:48:58 pm »
I'd rather not say. Sorry.  :-[
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

Offline Bonk

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2009, 05:01:50 pm »
So I was right then?!  :o  :laugh:

I think you can get help for that sort of thing. ;)

(Just keeping it light hearted here.)

Offline toasty0

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2009, 05:38:46 pm »
At least I didn't try to arrange the letters in order...
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2009, 11:10:45 am »
BFD and I IC OCD here.

Anyone have a Text Speak to English Dictionary?

Best I could do was:
Big F'n Dog and I Integrated Circuit Obsessive Compulsive Disorder here.

Which left me rather confused. ;D

Sorry Toasty0, but I did not get it either. What do the acronyms stand for?

Your first acronym guess (edited for this forum I would guess) was pretty much what mine was, on the rest I drew a blank.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."