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#### Dash Jones

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2009, 11:53:25 am »
the PROBLEM MS has done, is one done out of GREED.  For records, EVERYTHING should be backwards compatible.  Period.  Sure, you can get the newest and greatest if it really IS BETTER...but if it is resource hog for no other reason than to be a resource hog...then it's not really better...just sloppier and stupider and being sold to those who will spend money on the NEW BLING.

This was one of the BIG problems MS had with WinVista.  It felt invincible, that people would be forced to take ANYTHING they put out.  Hence they put out shoddy work that was a resource hog, and expected people to pay more for it than other systems that worked just fine.

If anything, Win7 is a reboot of WinVista in the format it should have been in the first place, after MS has gotten a slightly bloody nose for complete arrogance on their part.
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#### toasty0

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2009, 12:50:30 pm »

I have an easy one to look up and link to because I remember using an uncommon word to praise Microsoft.  It was even in connection with a prerelease of Vista.  Link

My comment for those who may not want to click on the link.

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Windows Vista is in beta testing.  Beta testing is about finding and patching flaws.  The only thing surprising here is Microsoft patching the existing beta version rather than waiting for the next beta release.  For patching it quickly rather than risking the beta testers security kudos to Microsoft.

January of 2006...and that post is not an endorsement, but an expression of surprise. 3 years ago, Nem. I'd say when it comes to anything MS, you are decidedly slanted against it.

But! Given that decidely overwhelming slant, you have done your best to be a fair moderator. Please do not think I'm trying to imply otherwise.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 01:16:11 pm by toasty0 »
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2009, 01:08:25 pm »

I have an easy one to look up and link to because I remember using an uncommon word to praise Microsoft.  It was even in connection with a prerelease of Vista.  Link

My comment for those who may not want to click on the link.

Quote
Windows Vista is in beta testing.  Beta testing is about finding and patching flaws.  The only thing surprising here is Microsoft patching the existing beta version rather than waiting for the next beta release.  For patching it quickly rather than risking the beta testers security kudos to Microsoft.

January of 2006...and that post is not an endorsement, but an expression of surprise. 3 years ago, Nem. I'd say when it comes to anything MS, you are decidedly slanted against it.

But! Given that decidely overwhelming slant, you have done your best to be a fair moderator. Please do not think I'm trying to imply otherwise.

I don't think you understand my surprise Toasty.

Can you name ANY other company that have EVER patched a public beta rather than just waiting for the next build?  I can't.  I would express the same surprise if the version of Linux I use (Mint KDE) had released a patch for a beta.

The surprise was that ANYONE not specifically Microsoft would go to the effort of patching a beta.  It just ISN'T done by anyone to my knowledge, you wait and release a new build and tell testers "deal with it until the next build".   You might rush the next beta a bit but never ever in my experience patch the current one.

The reason for that example was I could easily find it due to remembering saying Kudos (and running across it recently when searching for something else).  Not many posts use that word.  Besides which we have enough ardent defenders of all things Microsoft that I rarely need to speak for them.
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#### Tus-XC

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2009, 01:24:32 pm »
Pestalence I can only say that if I were playing a game and a PATCH degraded performance so much I would become a truely irate customer.

I can answer that one, they added more bells and whistles since there was some head room available (mainly doubled and tripled the amount of grass rendered and a few other nice lil things) - so i don't mind all that much, just wish there was a way to actually control the amount of grass rendered... arg lol
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#### Pestalence_XC

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2009, 02:25:22 pm »
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XP activation.  Microsoft cut my brother-in-law off when he did a reinstall and until he A/Got nasty and B/ Swore he would install Redhat Linux on all 6 of his machines they were adamant he had to buy a new copy.  At that point they suddenly decided his copy was legal.  At the time he was selling Windows based PCs and servicing them.

MS has shut down 98% of the VLK's that were out there, mainly because Universities that used VLK's in their classes were learked on to the net.. ~1,000,000 VLK's have been canned due to Piracy.. MS does it Blanket style instead of each individual key.

Quote
What happens when the XP activation server is shut down?  It is only in the last year that I moved my mother off Win98SE (it did everything she needed) and then only because the machine died.  So how many XP users will be cut off when they need to activate and Microsoft says "Buy a new computer we don't activate XP any more".

Court order and Microsoft have both stated that MS can nt sut down Activation servers.. the only thing that they can do is cancel updte support.. Worries on this are unfounded.

Quote
My computers get rebuilt over and over again.  Microsoft interprets that as new machines and insist on my paying them again for what I already bought.

CD keys are designed for 1 computer system only.. Now each key can be used again after 120 days. Your CMos and Bios stamp is registered on the MS server along with your CD Key.. after 120 days, the stamps are deleted from the servers, thus allowing you to use your CD Key again.

Now if you install XP on a system, and then all of a sudden decide to change the main board.. that is effectively putting the OS on a 2nd machine.. which is why there are activation problems.. Different Cmos and Bios stamps..

The goal of MS is for people to buy 1 copy for each machine that people own, not using 1 copy of the OS for 15 Machines.. that is what purchasing a VLK is for.

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Windows 2000 Pro, blocked me from making a perfectly legal (in Canada) copy of a DVD that I owned for my own use calling it "illegal".  Microsoft is NOT the police and they have no right to try and control my usage of what I bought.

Actually they do to comply with the laws of that country.. Maybe Canada stated that you have to have a certain license or version of the DVD based on region or counrty in order to make a legal backup up of the DVD.. In that event, maybe Canada requested MS to incluse special rules based on individuals IP addresses.. IE if your IP originates in Canada and the DVD is Region 1 US and the EULA pertains to US Consumers, then concievably, your national government could request MS to block copying of the DVD.. Or you can just get a program like 321 Studios DVD X-Copy Pro which doesn't recognize DRM.. Simple work around.

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It is only in the last year that I moved my mother off Win98SE (it did everything she needed) and then only because the machine died.

I can't believe you let your mother remain in the stone age with that buggy OS for so long.. Heck, I bought my sister a Laptop in 2001 just so that she could get off Win 98 SE.. She has been eternally grateful..

Then I built her a desktop 2 years ago and have her dual booting Vista / XP and she has been extremely grateful for not having to wait 5 min for Windows to start up or 5 min for her dial up to connect, or 2 min for the browser to pop up, or 4 min for Outlook Express to load.. it is all almost instantaneous now and saves her time and fustration.. She is able to do many, many more things with her computer than she could with the old junker she use to use.. she has even gotten into doing animated signatures, video clips, power point shows, and is now teaching herself how to edit home DVD videos...

Before all she could do is check email and browse the web.. what a dreary way to think about the only use of a computer is.. My sister now cherishes the capabilities of her newer system since the older one did not have the horse power to properly edit home made DVDs.

By not upgrading, you only limit your possibilities. I am sure your mother is thinking Wow, this thing in fast.. Imagine what she could do on a modern system.. baybe she would want to expand her use of her computer to something more than a post office and library.

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If anything, Win7 is a reboot of WinVista in the format it should have been in the first place, after MS has gotten a slightly bloody nose for complete arrogance on their part.

Windows 7 is basically Vista Service Pack 2 with a slightly changed GUI..

There is still no backwards compatibility for outdated software that is not coded according to industry standards, there is no built in support for programs written in MS VB6 .. DirectX 8 and older is emulated under DirectX 11, as long as the conding method of the software followed industry standard, not freelanced code (SFC comes to mind for Freelanced code)..

Basically, MS is attempting to get people to stop using buggy software.

Windows 7 does fix some security problems and has sealed up many memory leaks..

Also Windows 7 is a Beta currently, yet you get updates / patches the 2nd Thursday of each month and criticals when necessary.

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Hence they put out shoddy work that was a resource hog

First, I agree that Vista had numerous problems out the gate.. many of which were solved with SP 1.. As for Memory Hog.. well if you don't know how to reduce your system settings, then yes Vista can be a hog.. with Vista running full graphic eye candy available, it requires 1.5 GB to run.. If you turn it down to Vista Basic lvl, then the requirement is 1.1 GB.. If you turn it down to XP lvl, then the requirement is 800 Mb, if you turn it down to Win 98 lvl, the the requirement is 550 MB..

So where is the resource hog.. the only Hog is someone running max settings on a sub par system.

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than other systems that worked just fine.

Other systems that work just fine are systems running outdated software and components.. now when a new piece of software comes out that someone wants to put on their system, and they see the requirements stating "Windows Vista /Windows 7 - DirectX 10/11 Required) then people may realize that their system is just way too old.. or they just have to stick with the outdated software that isn't doing what they want or gives the features that they may need.

Let's say Mom has Authoritis in her hands and can't hardly type, but she keeps in contact with her family via Email. Do you want her typing and causing her pain, or do you want her dictating and resting her hands?

Now your options is to go out and see if you can buy a Copy of Dragon that is still able to work on the outdated machine, or you can Upgrade the system to something modern with the capability built in..

and upgrading would be a win / win situation as she would be able to do so much more with the computer.. just getting a Voice Command program = Win / Lose.. the system is already slow, and how you just taxed it even more, making it slower by putting Voice Command on it for her, plus she wouldn't be able to take advantage of all the Newer system capabilities.. sure she could use Voice to create Emails.. great.. but now she has to wait 8 min for Outlook Express to load instead of the old 5 min. Just an example...

I love the mentality here of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.".. well the reason for updates and newer software is because something was broken to begin with.. You may not have noticed it before, but something was broken.. memory leaks, driver conflicts, Random Crashes that Vista and XP suffers from.. Fixed in Windows 7.. Plus Windows 7 can use drivers from Vista or Windows 7.. basically the same OS.. just a bit different GUI.

Now with XP, you had to do some configuring with some software in order to get it working correctly on XP (Dominion wars comes to mind here.. It isn't suppose to work on NT environment / Kernel like XP / Vista / Windows 7).. Dominion Wars absolutely will not work on Vista or Windows 7.. the OS's have better identification to software to prevent incompatibilities.

Vista may take a bit of configuring to get older programs working as well because of the UAC virtual Environment.. SFC comes to mind (excluding Dynaverse).. On Windows 7.. just install and play (Excluding Dynaverse)..

So many incompatibility issues have been solved with Windows 7, but there are still compatibility problems with using Freelanced programming code that came from a buggy compiler (SFC using Won Server coding, edited in MS Visual C++ 6.0 using freelanced code).. as such, programs that uses coding like this (SFC) may have limited functionality or improper netowrking / updating..

This will either make programmers to use proper coding techniques or switch to programming to a more forgiving environment..

However with the market MS currently has, developers will probably update their programming tools and or older software to conform to industry standards for programming and functionality..

People who use Visual Basic 6 as their only programmig tool since 1998, well they will hve to get either the Free DL of Visual Studio 2K8 .NET Basic and learn the industry standard.. or keep on plugging away at VB 6 for ancient computers and hope against hope that computers and OS will stop for some miraculous reason from advancing further.. and still put out shoddy apps due to the bugs in VB 6.

The mentality of "I just don't want to upgrade" is fine for some.. stay behind and stick with old software.. and when you company is in the red, or your MSN Messenger is no longer compatible with Microsoft Live Messenger.. maybe then you will upgrade.. but to stay current.. systems should be replaced every 2 to 3 years.. or have the capability to upgrade to the next gen tech coming out.. much like the i7 980 main boards.. the PCIE slots on those boards are PCIE 2.0 withich is designed for older PCIE cards (x8, x16) and the newer ones that are x32 (v2.0 PCIE). Boards like this are designed with forward capabilities built in.. not just limited upgrades based on current tech.

It's not a matter of keeping up with the Jonses.. it is a matter of functionality and capability.. So if you wanted to play a game like Age of Conan.. Could your system handle it, or would you have to build a new rig.. what are you going to do in 2 years when all software becomes as demanding as AoC for normal applications?

I'm predicting it now.. as is ToastyO.. XP may be around for a while yet.. but you will see it more and more as a Dual boot option, not a Down Grade. And then it will fade away.
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2009, 03:20:53 pm »
What is the problem with DRM? I have had no problems with any Media I have attempted to use on any MS OS.

Surely you have read about DRM issues in the last few years?  Not all from Microsoft of course.

Microsoft admitted that DRM was a significant part of the performance penalty of Vista.  It is always running.

For other companies.  Sony's infamous music CD that put a root kit on your system and removing it disabled your CD and DVD drives  (It also apparently used open source code illegally).  Various games where the DRM blocks the game from running at all for some people.

BluRay has a feature (which presumbably Microsoft honours) that allows the producer to include a list of "insecure devices" and forbid the system to play their disks if you have one of those devices - even those you might already own and have been able to play previously.  You can be compelled to replace some of your hardware or be unable to use disks you legitimately bought and own.

Activation and WGA you know of.

DRM's effect is only against people like you, keeping those that don't actualy experience or use it away.

I already mentioned Windows 2000Pro blocking my copying of a DVD that I had the right to copy.

I have 4 computers in this room.  Two Linux, 1 Win2KPro and one (given to me) WinXP Pro.  I see DRM and there is no advantage to me.  It gets in the way and causes legitimate users problems.  I could easily (except for my morals and ethics getting in the way) pirate the DRM'ed stuff instead I stand on my principles and object and oppose DRM and avoid it as much as I can.

So I don't get Vendor Lock-in.

That is a complex topic.  Did you follow any of Microsofts lobbying to keep governments from choosing to standardize on ODF instead of DOC?  Did you follow the recurring scandals around the world over OOXML being rammed through ISO?

How about those parts of OOXML that say things like "Do this like Office 95" without defining it?  Undefined elements that only one company can know how it works should not be in a PUBLIC STANDARD.

How about the recent TomTom lawsuit?  Part of that was TomToms Linux can read the FAT file system which MS has a (very questionable) patent on.  If Microsoft could get FAT reading capability out of Linux then most (if not all) digital cameras can't be connected to Linux any more.

Consider Steve Ballmers last few years of FUD spreading about how a typical Linux distribution violates Microsoft patents (he even says how many but refuses to state which ones).  Sounds a lot like McCarthy's "I have a LIST" speeches.  Claims but no facts.  The open source community has repeatedly asked which ones so they can cease violating those which are valid.  Microsoft refuses to tell. Why not tell if it is the truth?

Note software patents are not valid in Canada.  Neither is the DMCA so I can legally break DRM here without issue.

as for #1, MS has done this in the past, however their company has had many, many changes.. AOL now works properly with IE and MS products as well as Netscape.. and I haven't come across any software that MS is intentionally blocking from working on their OS systems.. only trying to get people to come into the 21st century with their software by dropping OS support for outdated / broken technology (MS Visual C++ 6.0 comes to mind as well as DirectX 7 and .

Sorry but I don't have your faith in convicted criminals claiming to have reformed.  Especially considering subsequent convictions.

Even during the DOJ vs Microsoft after testifying that they don't change Windows to damage competitors they discussed changing Windows to hurt the Palm OS in favour of WinCE.  They were trying to ensure that you couldn't effectively use Palm as easily as WinCE in spite of their prior conflicting statements to the judge.

In the DOJ vs Microsoft resolution they were required to document things.  The documentation is STILL not judged adequate.  Why are they above the law?

In the EU vs Microsoft they were also ordered to document things.  They failed and attacked the "judge" of their compliance, even though he was from a list that they drew up as acceptable to them.  They further claimed that they COULD NOT create the documentation.  Only when the EU escalated the fines did they produce usable documents, so much for could not.  They also tried to create licensing that would have prevented Linux from using the documentation (specifically anti GPL phrases).

Then there is the strange case of netbooks.  Why is it that makers of netbooks sell models that have Windows on and different configurations with Linux?  Why are they complicating their manufacturing?  It can't be more of Microsoft forbidding selling identical models that have Window and those that don't?

Just recently Microsoft was convicted (and did not appeal) of illegal price fixing in Germany.  What was that about reformed?

Then there was the Creative Labs contract where Creative Labs had to agree not to sell competitors products. Again they blamed one guy for that.  It wasn't the company it was a mistake by one guy.  One guy who apparently can create contracts without going through the legal department?  Fishy.

I too don't agree on monopolizing the market and preventing others work from operating because MS doesn't want them to.. however that practice from my experiences has been over since 2001.

Why was Vista's CD/DVD burning capability set to default to a format that nothing but Microsoft could read?  Why though you can choose another interoperable format could you not set another format as default?

Why has Microsoft fought tooth and nail to block Governments from using Open Document Format?  Even going so far as to claim that only Star Office/Open Office can use that format and that they (and their proprietary DOC format) would be blocked from bidding on contracts?  They subsequently sponsored an ODF plug in once it was clear they had to have one, which demonstrates the lie they told.

Just like any other criminal if Microsoft wants to be trusted they must EARN that trust by exemplary behavior.  I haven't seen it. If they had been behaving properly they would not keep having governments take them to court.
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2009, 03:30:21 pm »
MS has shut down 98% of the VLK's that were out there, mainly because Universities that used VLK's in their classes were learked on to the net.. ~1,000,000 VLK's have been canned due to Piracy.. MS does it Blanket style instead of each individual key.

Not a VLK.  Home systems, built for individual sale.

Court order and Microsoft have both stated that MS can nt sut down Activation servers.. the only thing that they can do is cancel updte support.. Worries on this are unfounded.

Most recent I heard was a statement from Microsoft that they were "likely" to release a fix to deactivate activation.  That was not a legally binding commitment.  Good to hear the government is making them behave at least a little.

CD keys are designed for 1 computer system only.. Now each key can be used again after 120 days. Your CMos and Bios stamp is registered on the MS server along with your CD Key.. after 120 days, the stamps are deleted from the servers, thus allowing you to use your CD Key again.

Now if you install XP on a system, and then all of a sudden decide to change the main board.. that is effectively putting the OS on a 2nd machine.. which is why there are activation problems.. Different Cmos and Bios stamps..

The goal of MS is for people to buy 1 copy for each machine that people own, not using 1 copy of the OS for 15 Machines.. that is what purchasing a VLK is for.

Microsoft's desires are irrelevant.  The LAW allows me to install it on one system at a time.  Microsoft has no legal right to change that.  Microsoft is trying to use the EULA to write their own laws.  A EULA you don't see until after you have paid for it.  A EULA that they reserve the right to change at each patch to fix a FLAW that should be fixed without any changes of your ownship terms.

The EULA concept has yet to be tested in court. Individual terms have been overturned.

Actually they do to comply with the laws of that country.. Maybe Canada stated that you have to have a certain license or version of the DVD based on region or counrty in order to make a legal backup up of the DVD.. In that event, maybe Canada requested MS to incluse special rules based on individuals IP addresses..

No.  The law as currently interpreted allows me to not only back up my DVDs but I can legally download them.  I choose not to do the downloads for ethical reasons.

I can't believe you let your mother remain in the stone age with that buggy OS for so long.. Heck, I bought my sister a Laptop in 2001 just so that she could get off Win 98 SE.. She has been eternally grateful..

If your mother had a 15 year old car in perfect condition with 10,000 miles on it would you scrap it and buy her a brand new car which would do nothing more for her?  That is the equivalent of what you would advise me to do.

For the amount she used it and the type of usage 98SE was fine.  Why scrap what is perfectly functional for its purpose?  If I had built her a top of the line machine it wouldn't have been used any more or done any more.  It would have wasted money for no purpose.

She had my Linux laptop for a couple of months till I was given and rebuilt the 2 XP machines, one for her and one for me.  Neither would handle Vista but both are capable with XP for what they are needed for.  The same of course applies to the Win200Pro machine, capable for what it is used for.
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#### Bonk

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2009, 03:34:48 pm »
aside (Vista bitch): I only recently realised that Vista can download files from the internet faster than it can copy them locally. WTF? (e.g. yesterday a subversion checkout of scribus finished in about 4 minutes, then a local copy of the source tree took about 12 minutes!)

#### Bonk

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2009, 03:55:50 pm »
Regarding old vs new in this discussion in general...

I was perfectly happy with my old PIII 1000MHz WinXP system for 8 years. Had I not bought two new systems recently I probably would still be - but after having used Vista on a dual core AMD Athlon 64 at 1.9GHz for some time now, I do not think I could go back to my old system as my primary client machine.

Yes, the old machine did the job, but I did not know what I was missing until I was exposed to the newer hardware and software. Vista is still a step forward even though it has many irritations.

That said, I took vista off my new testing server box and put XP on it. I also multi-boot my laptop among Vista, XP and Kubuntu.

The reason? Legacy app compatibility. That is ultimately where Vista fell down. Windows 7 will have similar limitations. The design decision, I surmise, is that hardware costs are low enough to make virtualisation practical for legacy apps. That would be fine but 3D hardware virtualisation has way to go (i.e. games will still suck virtualised).

#### Pestalence_XC

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##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2009, 04:03:36 pm »
If your mother had a 15 year old car in perfect condition with 10,000 miles on it would you scrap it and buy her a brand new car which would do nothing more for her?  That is the equivalent of what you would advise me to do.

Do nothing more for her? Improved horse power, better fuel milage, less maintainence, availability of parts if something breaks down without having to spend an arm and a leg for..

Breakdown : Synthetic Oil for new model car compared to Conventional oil for Old car.. Synthetic Oil for top quality (15 K miles.. IE 1 oil change a year) .. $8 per quart x 5 quarts =$40 + $10 for filter designed to work with the Synthetic oil.. Cost =$50 + tax for 1 year .. Conventional Oil, using a good brand(say Mobile or Castroil) $3.90 / quart x 5 quarts =$18.50 + $4 for appropriate oil filter =$22.50 per oil change x 4 changes per year (every 3000 miles or every 3 months, whichever happens first) = $89.00 + tax.. Money overspent =$39.

Fuel Milage.. old car gets 22 on highway, 18 in town with AC off.. new car gets 28 on highway, 24 in town with AC on..

Going by in town milage .. you get + 6 miles per gallon.. but apples to apples, you get 16 MPG in town with old car with AC on.. 24 Miles per gallon in town with AC on with new car.. difference of 8 Miles per gallon.. After 3 tanks of gas, you save 1 gallon.. average 1 tank every 2 weeks.. 26 tanks a year.. 26 / 3 = 8.7 gallons saved x $3.00 per gallon =$26.10 per year savings..

Total saved so far = $65.10 .. Just an example of what a newer car can do for her per year.. This isn't counting Tune Ups at every 10,000 miles (old car) compared to tune ups at every 100,000 miles (new cars).. Transmission service every 24,000 miles or 2 years (old car) compared to every 10 years or 100,000 miles (new car).. Etc. Now imagine how much she would have saved over the last 12 years if she had a car with the newer fuel injection systems and Synthetic Oil requirements.. just fuel and Oil changes.. not counting other maintainence..$65.10 x 12 = $781.20 that could have gone into her savings / retireement fund.. now compound that with the interest that could have gained.. = Total lost.. And stating the car was 15 years olkd, but the new milage systems came out in 1997.. that is 3 years difference in car models.. = Trade in.. = not much difference in price. = Completely affordable and still saving money over the expenses of the older model. Yep.. It would do nothing for her, except save her money in the long run.. in the case of computers, it would save her time.. she isn't getting any younger. Ever think that she doesn't do more because the system isn't capable of doing more? Have you shown her all the capabilities of the system? Have you introduced her to different options that may coincide with her hobbies? As for as transfer speeds.. Vista is designed for optimal performance on a Raid 0 config, not just a standard SATA connection. Also, during a DL, the files is saved to a temp folder first, then transfered to your save directory.. CRC checks for corruption only if file is being opened Transfering from drive to drive, file is copied to temp directory, transfered to save directory while being compared to original file for corruption.. This doubles Read / write operations.. plus file is CRC checked after copy is done.. and in the case of Cut and Paste, they system has to delete the old file after transfer, which is part of the transfer protocal.. Copy / paste is just a second or 2 faster. Like I stated.. it is much faster on a Raid 0 config instead of a regular SATA connect.. which is much faster than EIDE connect or Ultra IDE connect... A Raid 0 setup is about the same speed as the DL.. give or take 1 to 2 seconds. « Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 04:51:52 pm by Cptn_Pestalence_XC » "You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!" Member : Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator Taldren Beta Test Team 14 Degrees East Beta Test Team Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12485 ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #50 on: April 20, 2009, 04:04:56 pm » I was perfectly happy with my old PIII 1000MHz WinXP system for 8 years. Had I not bought two new systems recently I probably would still be - but after having used Vista on a dual core AMD Athlon 64 at 1.9GHz for some time now, I do not think I could go back to my old system as my primary client machine. Yes, the old machine did the job, but I did not know what I was missing until I was exposed to the newer hardware and software. Vista is still a step forward even though it has many irritations. August 2007 I installed LinuxMint KDE, in mid September 2007 I realized that it had seduced me away from my old system which hadn't booted in weeks. It did everything "good enough" except play SFC (thats on the Win2k machine). I didn't realize how much better I liked it until a while back when I had an "issue" with the Linux machine and had to use the XP machine for a day while solving me screwup. I kept going to do things that the XP machine just didn't do that way and it was very frustrating. It wasn't the computing power but the interface. Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12485 ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #51 on: April 20, 2009, 04:14:36 pm » If your mother had a 15 year old car in perfect condition with 10,000 miles on it would you scrap it and buy her a brand new car which would do nothing more for her? That is the equivalent of what you would advise me to do. Do nothing more for her? Improved horse power, better fule milage, less maintainence, availability of parts if something breaks down without having to spend an arm and a leg for.. Yep.. It would do nothing for her, except save her money. in the long run.. in the case of computers, it would save her time.. she isn't getting any younger. Look back at the numbers. With a car with that little mileage, fuel savings (even if FREE and a low MP/G vehicle before that) would not pay for a new car, neither would the non existent repair bills. How could you pay more for repairs than replacing the whole car? For her use the system performance was virtually instantaneous. A dual quad core with 16 GB or RAM and the fastest RAID system possible wouldn't have done more for her. It did everything she DESIRED and fast. Performance was not an issue. Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### toasty0 • Application.Quit(); • Captain • Posts: 8045 • Gender: ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #52 on: April 20, 2009, 04:18:39 pm » And if you're a really cautious guy you use RAID 1+0. MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista #### Pestalence_XC • "The Terminator" • Commander • Posts: 2636 • Gender: • "The Terminator" Pestalence_XC, Xenocorp ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #53 on: April 20, 2009, 05:27:48 pm » I have 4 computers in this room. Two Linux, 1 Win2KPro and one (given to me) WinXP Pro. I see DRM and there is no advantage to me. It gets in the way and causes legitimate users problems. I could easily (except for my morals and ethics getting in the way) pirate the DRM'ed stuff instead I stand on my principles and object and oppose DRM and avoid it as much as I can. Need a list of software that allows you to rip your DVD's on any windows system without worrying about DRM? 321 Studios DVD-XCopy Pro Blaze media Pro Clone DVD 2 Cucusoft Ultimate DVD & Video converter suite WinAVI v9.0 I could list more.. but these are the main ones I use. As far as Windows Media player defaults.. sure you can change it.. Just install a Codec Pack.. for Vista / Windows 7, I suggest Sharks007's packs.. they are set up for x32 and x64 respectively.. once installed, Windows media Player can record / save in almost any format except Real and Quicktime.. although they do have separate DL's to plug in to Media Player for those formats.. but the plug ins don't work well with the browser player.. which is why they are separate from the package. I do a lot of Video editing on my system.. mostly converting old VHS to HD-DVD.. so the horse power is nice.. a conversion takes a total of 3 1/2 hours.. 2 to play the movie and record in Windows Media Center through my HD TV Tuner.. then 1 hour for my software to convert the Analog video to Digital and then to HD.. after that.. 25 Min to burn to a 4 GB DVD (or 40 min for 8 GB DL-DVD for movies longer than 2 hours). Burn labels on to disk with Lightscribe.. Print a Cover from the scanned VHS box cover.. and put it on my shelf for me to view when my wife is awake and in the mood for a movie. Couldn't do that properly on an XP system.. not enough horsepower and memory limitations in XP.. took forever if I really wanted to do that.. about 7 to 8 hours for the complete process on XP.. Granted Hardware has something to do with it, but Vista is designed for Multi-Media.. XP isn't, unless you have XP MCE 2K5. And even then 1/3 of the options are missing from XP. "You still don't get it, do you?......That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!" Member : Xenocorp / Dynaverse.net Moderator & Beta Test Team SFC 4 Project QA Coordinator Taldren Beta Test Team 14 Degrees East Beta Test Team Activision Visioneers SFC 3 Beta Test Team #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12485 ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #54 on: April 22, 2009, 05:58:35 am » At a couple points in this thread claims were made that Microsoft has reformed. One of the sites I read had a link to this PDF from the European Union (March 31st 2009) listing past and current issues with Microsoft. I haven't read it through yet myself but the table of contents lists a cross section of their behaviour. Section 3 subsection C is entitled "Microsoft's ongoing misconduct has sparked further European Commission Investigations". Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### toasty0 • Application.Quit(); • Captain • Posts: 8045 • Gender: ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #55 on: April 22, 2009, 08:21:28 am » At a couple points in this thread claims were made that Microsoft has reformed. One of the sites I read had a link to this PDF from the European Union (March 31st 2009) listing past and current issues with Microsoft. I haven't read it through yet myself but the table of contents lists a cross section of their behaviour. Section 3 subsection C is entitled "Microsoft's ongoing misconduct has sparked further European Commission Investigations". BFD and I IC OCD here. MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista #### Nemesis • Captain Kayn • Global Moderator • Commodore • Posts: 12485 ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #56 on: April 22, 2009, 11:45:13 am » BFD and I IC OCD here. Anyone have a Text Speak to English Dictionary? Do unto others as Frey has done unto you. Seti Team Free Software I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it. FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two." #### Rod ONeal • D.Net Beta Tester • Commander • Posts: 3592 • Gender: ##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista « Reply #57 on: April 23, 2009, 01:22:56 am » It's SOP 4 M$

http://jan.freedomblogging.com/2009/04/09/oc-firm-wins-388-million-patent-lawsuit-against-microsoft/11585/

<snip>
O.C. firm wins \$388 million patent lawsuit against Microsoft
If Romulans aren't cowards, then why do they taste like chicken?

#### Bonk

• Commodore
• Posts: 13298
• You don't have to live like a refugee.
##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2009, 02:47:41 pm »
BFD and I IC OCD here.

Anyone have a Text Speak to English Dictionary?

Best I could do was:
Big F'n Dog and I Integrated Circuit Obsessive Compulsive Disorder here.

Which left me rather confused.

Sorry Toasty0, but I did not get it either. What do the acronyms stand for?

#### toasty0

• Application.Quit();
• Captain
• Posts: 8045
• Gender:
##### Re: Windows users will be allowed to downgrade to XP from Win7, skip Vista
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2009, 04:48:58 pm »
I'd rather not say. Sorry.
MCTS: SQL Server 2005 | MCP: Windows Server 2003 | MCTS: Microsoft Certified Technology Specialist | MCT: Microsoft Certified Trainer | MOS: Microsoft Office Specialist 2003 | VSP: VMware Sales Professional | MCTS: Vista