Topic: Looking for 8 good men (or Hexx and Kroma . . .)

[FPF-DieHard]

If there’s enough interest, this will get built (the opposite of “Field of Dreams” but bear with me . . .).   I’ll need help from somebody smarter than me regarding the back-end stuff but it doesn’t seem too bad.

Please read http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163381516.0.html and familiarize yourself with the concepts presented in this thread.   The basic idea is to play a REAL strategic game over a D2 server at the same time.   We were a little overly-ambitious in the ideas but there’s no reason why a scaled-down version can’t work.

To continue we’ll need RACE leaders (no more SCC or SAC) for each of the 8 races.  Each race leader will be responsible for production and deployment of ships.   I’m thinking equal economies for race at the start of the campaign an equal “fleet.”   Possible dynamic alliances and diplomacy if people are into it.

I don’t want to pontificate on specifics until I know enough people are interested.   Are you?

EDIT:   You MUST have an XP (or older, no Vista or Windows 7) system for this as the battles will need to be resolved on a D2

[762_XC]

Yes.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I’ll need help from somebody smarter than me regarding the back-end stuff

Mouth watering, count me in. 

[Bonk]

I am tempted to prototype a simple OoB system on the SFB-OP OCI. Much simpler than the last time I attempted to auto-build it from OP+4 shiplist data, but this time I'll simply copy(link) the existing OCI RM ship assignment feature and adapt it to use to two simple tables: oob_assignedships(race,class,ship,bpv,owner,phase), oob_availships(race,ship,count) and an oob setup page: oob_limits(race,limit[ship|class|bpv],value,phase), oob_phases(phase,startyear,endyear)... I have not read the original discussion yet... and no guarantees at all, I have a lot on the go this month. Depends on your schedule and if I can get to it. I'm tempted to take a quick stab at it tonight. But there are my first thoughts.

edit: I do plan on moving soon, so will be offline for a few days at least, but hopefully not long.

[Hexx]

I’ll need help from somebody smarter than me regarding the back-end stuff

Mouth watering, count me in. 

Remarkable.

I'd assumed one STD or another must have ended you buy now.

How unfortunate..


Anyway sounds like a cool concept, but was there anything worked out about fleets/flying restrictions/base and/or planet assaults etc

It was three pages long and I really just felt like skimming it.

Not to mention (if it wasn't) I *really* don't think we'd even have close to the player base to get it to work.

Maybe trying it first on a much smaller scale, one of the theatres perhaps? (IIRC there was one..Kzin? That had nearly everyone send at least a small task force to it)

[FPF-DieHard]

Not to mention (if it wasn't) I *really* don't think we'd even have close to the player base to get it to work.

We only need 8 players.

[Hexx]

I dunno

If you're playing it as 8 Races with mutable alliances, or even fixed alliances, what's to prevent

The Glorious Lyran Empire attacks a sector of space to wrest control from the perfidious Kzin,
In order to form a fleet I recruit the Klink player and the Romulan, Klink player realizes it's very late in the game, and that the planet would be better served in his hands or the Kzins than the Lyrans.
So his CWL "accidently" gets hit by a few to many drones, goes boom, Lyrans are forced away from the planet, righteous cries of shennaigans abound...

Remember there have been some major fights about whether someone showed back up in a hex 58 minutes after he was killed, or if it was a full hour.

[FPF-DieHard]

I dunno

If you're playing it as 8 Races with mutable alliances, or even fixed alliances, what's to prevent

The Glorious Lyran Empire attacks a sector of space to wrest control from the perfidious Kzin,
In order to form a fleet I recruit the Klink player and the Romulan, Klink player realizes it's very late in the game, and that the planet would be better served in his hands or the Kzins than the Lyrans.
So his CWL "accidently" gets hit by a few to many drones, goes boom, Lyrans are forced away from the planet, righteous cries of shennaigans abound...

Remember there have been some major fights about whether someone showed back up in a hex 58 minutes after he was killed, or if it was a full hour.

Do you really think at this point in time we'd get that?  I don't think we have enough players left for anyone to risk that level of assholery.

[Hexx]

Upon further consideration, I could not possibly agree more.

<they'll never suspect a thing....>

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Interested.

[Dizzy]

Pretty damned good news for me... My wife may land a job tomorrow as an apartment manager and if so I can quit my lousy sales position selling motorcycles no one is buying... That'd totally free me up to help out. I'm in.

[FPF-DieHard]

Pretty damned good news for me... My wife may land a job tomorrow as an apartment manager and if so I can quit my lousy sales position selling motorcycles no one is buying... That'd totally free me up to help out. I'm in.

Cool -  I've been spending WAY too much money on my other hobbies, need to get to something that'll be easy on the wallet.

[Dizzy]

Cool -  I've been spending WAY too much money on my other hobbies,

wh()()rin?

[FPF-DieHard]

Cool -  I've been spending WAY too much money on my other hobbies,

wh()()rin?

Guitars.  The whores only are like $3 a pop.

[FPF-DieHard]

t00l, can you post your econ ideas here or someplace I can access?

[Roychipoqua_Mace]

I would be pumped for this, but school and Windows Vista are keeping me back. But when this does work out, I'd be interested in hearing about it, probably many others on Vista and 7 would too.

[762_XC]

Here's the economic model I came up with. It works out to about 1/3 of the F&E model, and stays pretty close to overall proportions (Coalition is 75% of the Alliance economy instead of 78%).

Capitals = 12 points (Roms and Gorns have this divided up between their different caps)
Major planets = 4 points
Minor planets = 2 points
Provinces  = not counted (way too much work)

Off map areas: (the Feds and Roms were tweaked up to keep the overall balance)

Fed = 12
Klingon = 0
Rom = 12
Kzin = 8
Gorn = 4
Hydran = 10
Lyran = 12

Total starting economies:

Fed = 70
Klingon = 42
Rom = 36
Kzin = 34
Gorn = 26
Hydran = 30
Lyran = 42

Total Alliance: 160
Total Coalition: 120

[762_XC]

Ship costs are all in the SITs.

For the most part:

FF=3
DW=4
CW=5
Old DD or CL = 5 or 6
NCA=6
CA=8
CC=9
BCH=10
DN=16

escorts = +1
carriers = +2 (+fighters)

[FPF-DieHard]

Ship costs are all in the SITs.

For the most part:

FF=3
DW=4
CW=5
Old DD or CL = 5 or 6
NCA=6
CA=8
CC=9
BCH=10
DN=16

escorts = +1
carriers = +2 (+fighters)

If we take the price on the SIT I'm fine with that but we gotta do something about the Gorns.   Their ships are WAY overpriced relative to their combat effectiveness.  Also regarding the Gorns -  I think the "problem" we were discussing last night can simple be resolved by letting them buy some Federation NCLs.

[FPF-DieHard]

I am tempted to prototype a simple OoB system on the SFB-OP OCI. Much simpler than the last time I attempted to auto-build it from OP+4 shiplist data, but this time I'll simply copy(link) the existing OCI RM ship assignment feature and adapt it to use to two simple tables: oob_assignedships(race,class,ship,bpv,owner,phase), oob_availships(race,ship,count) and an oob setup page: oob_limits(race,limit[ship|class|bpv],value,phase), oob_phases(phase,startyear,endyear)... I have not read the original discussion yet... and no guarantees at all, I have a lot on the go this month. Depends on your schedule and if I can get to it. I'm tempted to take a quick stab at it tonight. But there are my first thoughts.

edit: I do plan on moving soon, so will be offline for a few days at least, but hopefully not long.

Bonk -  let me know if any of this is possible.  We were talking for a good two hours last night about this whacky turn-based campaign idea

1.   Can an OoB be created using the OCI?
2.   Can RMs assign ships to players on the fly in the OCI from this OoB pool?
3.   Can damaged ships retain their damage and be dumped back into a OoB pool?
4.   Can an RM view his ships and see how damaged they are on the OCI?

[762_XC]

....you were serious about the NCL thing? 

I agree the plasma ships are overpriced in F&E when you consider their relative effectiveness in SFC. The Roms are in the same boat however, so it does balance out. There is no way the Firehawk is as good as a non-plasma race's BCH.

We could leave the prices as they are and just give the plasma races a few more eco points to start with.

[FPF-DieHard]

....you were serious about the NCL thing? 

I agree the plasma ships are overpriced in F&E when you consider their relative effectiveness in SFC. The Roms are in the same boat however, so it does balance out. There is no way the Firehawk is as good as a non-plasma race's BCH.

We could leave the prices as they are and just give the plasma races a few more eco points to start with.

Roms pay for the Cloak.   Gorns pay for what -  the Tutu?

Once we get the Race leaders in place we can hammer out the economic details.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Gorns pay for pink fighters......

[762_XC]

Cloak goes by separate rules, so the overpricing of the plasma ships has nothing to do with that.

Just give each of them another 6 EP's to deal with the overpriced ships.

[FPF-DieHard]

Cloak goes by separate rules, so the overpricing of the plasma ships has nothing to do with that.

Just give each of them another 6 EP's to deal with the overpriced ships.

Regardless the Cloak add to combat effectiveness in SFC.   The Gorn's "Gorniness" doesn't.   The 6 EP's might be fine or simply lower their prices to match the Federation/Klingon counterparts.

With these low economies it's gonna be war-cuiser hell 

[Riskyllama]

1.   Can an OoB be created using the OCI?
2.   Can RMs assign ships to players on the fly in the OCI from this OoB pool?
3.   Can damaged ships retain their damage and be dumped back into a OoB pool?
4.   Can an RM view his ships and see how damaged they are on the OCI?

the simplest way would be to create an account specifically for the OOB ships and just have the RMs keep track of who has the keys to the account, if bonks got a better way that would be cool though.

[FPF-DieHard]

1.   Can an OoB be created using the OCI?
2.   Can RMs assign ships to players on the fly in the OCI from this OoB pool?
3.   Can damaged ships retain their damage and be dumped back into a OoB pool?
4.   Can an RM view his ships and see how damaged they are on the OCI?

the simplest way would be to create an account specifically for the OOB ships and just have the RMs keep track of who has the keys to the account, if bonks got a better way that would be cool though.

Smart man - that is the fallback plan.   Make and account for each ship and give people the username/passwords.  If Bonk can't automate that's the way to go.

[marstone]

1.   Can an OoB be created using the OCI?
2.   Can RMs assign ships to players on the fly in the OCI from this OoB pool?
3.   Can damaged ships retain their damage and be dumped back into a OoB pool?
4.   Can an RM view his ships and see how damaged they are on the OCI?

the simplest way would be to create an account specifically for the OOB ships and just have the RMs keep track of who has the keys to the account, if bonks got a better way that would be cool though.

Smart man - that is the fallback plan.   Make and account for each ship and give people the username/passwords.  If Bonk can't automate that's the way to go.

From what I have seen Bonk do (if he find the time) he should be able to do 1 and 2 at least (2 might take a player loging out to get the ship moved to his account).  My money is on he can do it.

[Bonk]

1.   Can an OoB be created using the OCI?

Yes. (started last night, realised I need a code redesign for the oci now as it grows in complexity, but I can put it off till after this)

2.   Can RMs assign ships to players on the fly in the OCI from this OoB pool?

Yes. (if assignee is logged off as marstone mentioned, but I have never really tested editing the ships of a logged in player - might be worth a try sometime)

3.   Can damaged ships retain their damage and be dumped back into a OoB pool?

More work, but doable, so long as they are traded in on the oci and not in game.

4.   Can an RM view his ships and see how damaged they are on the OCI?

Again, more work but doable. Can just spit out the translated damage blob.

From this thread so far the main tricks I see are the point system and the awarding of points at the end of each turn/phase. I think it would require a scheduled task. Or it could be done automatically from the oci, but what if nobody looks at it around the turn end... I dont think that matters... yeah I'll do it from the oci code. Calculation is the easy part, scheduling (emulation of) will be the trick. No wait, it needs to be a scheduled task, as the map may continue changing even though the oci may remain unobserved. This requires minimum downtime for cleaning etc, or adjustment of the scheduled task to account for unplanned downtime.

Again, I am moving at the end of the month (hopefully) so may be offline for a short time but I will commit to this. Trick is I can't really set it up at dynaverse.net until we figure a way to get thor up and running. I have no problem running it on my server but like I say, I have the upcoming move. So my thinking is to do a little development before the move, then once I get reconnected, start setting it up for a run early next month. Optimistically, in three weeks. If you guys wanted to do something sooner, I don't think I could be of much help.

[Hexx]

...

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but do we really need to price fix Gorn ships if they're really just facing the Roms?

I had assumed the traditional map was being used- is this the case?

[FPF-DieHard]

...

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but do we really need to price fix Gorn ships if they're really just facing the Roms?

Not talking BPV.   The Gorn ships in F&E cost too much, the Gorn CCH costs most than a Fed BCF.

When I mentioned selling the Gorn some F-NCL ships it was to give them SOMETHING direct-fire.  The Romulans have maulers.

I had assumed the traditional map was being used- is this the case?

It's looking that way.

[Hexx]

Don't want to start it here.. but you know it's going to end up if the Gorns get a discount do the Feds pay proportionally more for a CVA?
More for their superior fighters? (iirc the F-14s actually do have special rules.. been way to long since I looked at F&E though)
Are the Lyrans going to pay more for the BC? (this I can't remember-I assume so but don't know)

Would drones be stripped off the F-NCL's? (again I honestly don't even remember what kinda rack they carry, I really have to start looking at the game again)

[FPF-DieHard]

Don't want to start it here.. but you know it's going to end up if the Gorns get a discount do the Feds pay proportionally more for a CVA?
More for their superior fighters? (iirc the F-14s actually do have special rules.. been way to long since I looked at F&E though)

yes, you pay more for the better fighters.  Carriers works strange in F&E, they are more powerful than they are in SFB/SFC and are nigh impossible to kill.  We'll have to modify this somewhat.

Are the Lyrans going to pay more for the BC? (this I can't remember-I assume so but don't know)

The SITs can be found here http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/20881.html?1227653244

They Lyran BCH costs 11 EP to build (comparision the K-C7 and F-BCF cost 10).  The plain old Lyan BC (with powerpacks and crap, I forget the designation) costs 10 EP. 

The Lyrans do have some advantages as a BC can be made off of a converted CL hull so they can build more battlecruisers than any other race.   The Lyrans and Romulans aren't as cookie-cutter as the rest of the races.

Would drones be stripped off the F-NCL's? (again I honestly don't even remember what kinda rack they carry, I really have to start looking at the game again)

F-NCL has 1 rack.  I'd leave be or let them replace it with a sinlge 360 plasma D.

[762_XC]

I gotta say, I really hate the G-NCL idea. Anything that kills racial flavor is bad.

And while I don't want Gorn racial flavor to be "get owned in a fleet battle" I think we need to find another way.

Keep in mind maulers are going to be relatively rare.

[Hexx]

I don't even know where to start looking for my F&E stuff.. sorry should really make a big list of questions rather than doing it this way..

-What's the conversion cost/time/whatver we're charging to actually build Romulan Maulers

-If it's the Romulan maulers that are the issue for the Gorn, what about the Allies conjectural maulers? (I know they were printed somewhere, dunno how good they were, although I suspect since they're allied ships they are awe inspiring) I mean if this is a campaign that's not designed to follow the historical one, a CJ ship or two may not be a bad idea.

[762_XC]

According to F&E rules Roms can build 3 maulers per turn.  I didn't realize it was that high; maybe we should consider limiting that a bit more.

Cost wise they are more or less the same as equivalent hulls. FHA and FHF are both 10 points.

[FPF-DieHard]

-If it's the Romulan maulers that are the issue for the Gorn, what about the Allies conjectural maulers? (I know they were printed somewhere, dunno how good they were, although I suspect since they're allied ships they are awe inspiring) I mean if this is a campaign that's not designed to follow the historical one, a CJ ship or two may not be a bad idea.

They suck ass.

[FPF-DieHard]

According to F&E rules Roms can build 3 maulers per turn.  I didn't realize it was that high; maybe we should consider limiting that a bit more.

Cost wise they are more or less the same as equivalent hulls. FHA and FHF are both 10 points.

We'll see mostly war-cruisers, the Sparrowhawks are cheap.

[Corbomite]

-If it's the Romulan maulers that are the issue for the Gorn, what about the Allies conjectural maulers? (I know they were printed somewhere, dunno how good they were, although I suspect since they're allied ships they are awe inspiring) I mean if this is a campaign that's not designed to follow the historical one, a CJ ship or two may not be a bad idea.

They suck ass.

Kroma should love them then... 

[FPF-DieHard]

-If it's the Romulan maulers that are the issue for the Gorn, what about the Allies conjectural maulers? (I know they were printed somewhere, dunno how good they were, although I suspect since they're allied ships they are awe inspiring) I mean if this is a campaign that's not designed to follow the historical one, a CJ ship or two may not be a bad idea.

They suck ass.

Kroma should love them then... 

Sigh . . .  Perhaps it's best to talk to the Gorn and see if this is even an issue.

[Corbomite]

Dunno. They never asked for help in the past except the BCH power curve. But most of them were PF jockeys. In this set up they won't be able to do that.

[762_XC]

Well rather than debate this in theory we could fly a few Gorn v Rom 3v3's and see what happens.

[Hexx]

Well rather than debate this in theory we could fly a few Gorn v Rom 3v3's and see what happens.

As much as I absolutely abhor the idea of agreeing with this guy, he's right.

Also (of course) you'd have to try it different eras, maybe the Rms are better in early/whatver with maulers, but iirc don't Gorn PFs absolutely smoke Rom PF's under AI control? (or maybe it's the other way around..)

[FPF-DieHard]

Well rather than debate this in theory we could fly a few Gorn v Rom 3v3's and see what happens.

As much as I absolutely abhor the idea of agreeing with this guy, he's right.

Also (of course) you'd have to try it different eras, maybe the Rms are better in early/whatver with maulers, but iirc don't Gorn PFs absolutely smoke Rom PF's under AI control? (or maybe it's the other way around..)

t00l's right, we have to see how winnable these fights can be.   I'm game for tuesday night.

[Corbomite]

I got all the info I needed in Rom vs Gorn in that fight with WarSears.

[Hexx]

Also the SITs don't seem to be complete (I assume ffrom for F&E runs) there are no build/conversion costs for CWL/D5L for example.
Although there is an entry for the CLC..

Also think I'm missing something, wouldn't we want Coalition and Alliance econs to be closer together rather than farther apart?
As it stands (again unless I'm misunderstanding the way this works)
The Roms and Klinks together can just manage to outproduce the Feds, (devoting all their econ they can build one more CA in total, not each)
Which leaves the Lyran econ to go toe to toe with both the Kzin and Hydran ( 64 econs vs 42),
 and the Gorn are free to throw their own 26 against the Roms.

Is it supposed to be set up for staggered war entry?

[762_XC]

The staggered start makes up for it. In your typical F&E game the coalition will grab huge chunks of alliance territory early on to make up the difference. The Feds also start very slow with their production, and by the time it gets into full gear the Klinks should have a lot of their space.

So, the economy difference is actually necessary to balance the other game conditions, in particular the fact that the Hydrans and Kzinti have to try to hold off two of the biggest empires on separate fronts for 6 turns.

I don't think any of this will be hard to duplicate in our campaign. A lot of it is already built in vis-a-vis the starting schedules.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

Well rather than debate this in theory we could fly a few Gorn v Rom 3v3's and see what happens.

As much as I absolutely abhor the idea of agreeing with this guy, he's right.

Also (of course) you'd have to try it different eras, maybe the Rms are better in early/whatver with maulers, but iirc don't Gorn PFs absolutely smoke Rom PF's under AI control? (or maybe it's the other way around..)

t00l's right, we have to see how winnable these fights can be.   I'm game for tuesday night.

I should be able to make that but it would help to set a time foe tuesday night so I can tweak the real life schedule as needed. thanks.

[FPF-DieHard]

The staggered start makes up for it. In your typical F&E game the coalition will grab huge chunks of alliance territory early on to make up the difference. The Feds also start very slow with their production, and by the time it gets into full gear the Klinks should have a lot of their space.

So, the economy difference is actually necessary to balance the other game conditions, in particular the fact that the Hydrans and Kzinti have to try to hold off two of the biggest empires on separate fronts for 6 turns.

I don't think any of this will be hard to duplicate in our campaign. A lot of it is already built in vis-a-vis the starting schedules.

The Coalition also start with more ships. . .

If it's a blow-out one way or the other we start over and rebalance.   On one of these campaings many moons ago, the KHH were playing the Kzinti, the Klingons lost most of their forces in the first round so the war was over in two. 

[Hexx]

The staggered start makes up for it. In your typical F&E game the coalition will grab huge chunks of alliance territory early on to make up the difference. The Feds also start very slow with their production, and by the time it gets into full gear the Klinks should have a lot of their space.

So, the economy difference is actually necessary to balance the other game conditions, in particular the fact that the Hydrans and Kzinti have to try to hold off two of the biggest empires on separate fronts for 6 turns.

I don't think any of this will be hard to duplicate in our campaign. A lot of it is already built in vis-a-vis the starting schedules.

The Coalition also start with more ships. . .

Oh Yay
Those C8's will be so cool once the Feds start churning out DNL's.

Speaking of which,,,

Questions

1) Will conjectural ships be allowed? (ie Lyran carriers)
I can see a difference in my (admittedly biased) opinion on CJ ships that really won't have huge impact (a couple of Lyran CV's) and those HDWish things I can't remember the name of.

2) Will the SITs (very few) build restrictions be in place? ie no more than one STL at a time

3) Will other ships that (iirc) are far more effective in OP than F&E (the aforementioned DNL, likely others) be resticted somehow?

4) How would our starting schedules be set? ie Will the Feds (again for example, not picking on Feds) not be allowed to fight/build any ships until/unless the coaltion takes a preset number of EP's from the other races?

Also I actually can't find my F&E stuff , how do conversions/builds work.
Can I just decalre as many conversions as I want during a turn (subject to available EPs) or are they limited by something?

[762_XC]

1) I would prefer not, aside from Fed PF's (since game mechanics wise it makes so much more sense for the Hydrans to do the 3rd way instead of the Feds).

2) I would prefer they are.

3) I don't know the build rules on DNL's and fast cruisers, but I'm pretty sure they are limited. I would say one fast ship (DNL or CF) per year per race, as a substitution for an equivalent hull.

4) F&E has a set production schedule. We will use a scaled down version of that.

Conversions and substitutions are limited depending on type. We will come up with something that makes sense for the scaled down campaign that we are doing.

The overall idea is to have people flying line ships more than they would normally choose to. There will be cheese but it will be historically limited as it should be.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Wish I could play but my cyrrent service provided, AT& t didn't let me use Dverse.  Of course I just switched to u-verse.  Anyone having any luck with u-verse?

[Lieutenant_Q]

I would certainly be willing to play.  My work schedule is erratic, but predictable.  If I'm need to do more than just play I can do it.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't have an issue with conjectual ships, I'd leave it to the concensus of the race-leaders. 

[Julin Eurthyr]

You said 8 RMs.  Are the ISC gonna be in this, and how do they factor into the game, being I don't know if the ISC part of F&E is fully released yet?

I'm not a big fan, personally, of CJs, you start letting "some" in and someone's bound to ask / beg / plead for one of the uber-cheesy CJs.  Slippery slope type stuff...  (anyway, the Lyrans do have a small scattering of non-CJ carriers, right???)

Speaking of Lyrans, wasn't the ship mentioned above the BCPP (phaser and powerpack refit)?

[Bonk]

I got a start on an interface, but I see with the additional posts in this thread that you guys want ship-by-ship build points and settings. That complicates matters considerably. Er somewhat... It's already up to five tables. I gotta do some errands then I'll take another look at my start on this. (was tempted to add terraforming.. still am...)

edit: ah, I think the way to go may be like I have started, by class, then just add a check for specific ship modifiers... the idea of this whole approach is that the server admin and RMs do all the work (adding all the ship-by-ship settings and whatnot), this just makes the machine to get it done...

The idea will be to cripple the in-game shipyards in a way that does not destabilise the server, use exisiting oci shipyard configurations to limit normal oci shipyard purchases, then add the build interface and OoB pool of ships to the RM Assign ships page (or its own page)

It occurs to me (obvious I guess) that we are building an external economic engine for the Dynaverse.

[Hexx]

 

Looks great Bonk!

Very interfacey.

[FPF-DieHard]

You said 8 RMs.  Are the ISC gonna be in this, and how do they factor into the game, being I don't know if the ISC part of F&E is fully released yet?

it's looking like the first time we try this it's just gonna be the GW races but who knows what it'll actually be.

[Hexx]

Speaking of Lyrans, wasn't the ship mentioned above the BCPP (phaser and powerpack refit)?

Kinda
It is according to the OP+ shiplist, but it doesn't match the setup from SFB.
(which apparently used "B" isntead of "P" for either the phaser or power refit, can't remember which)
Powerpacks/shield/& the phaser refit were all available from Y168 (which is year 5 iin OP iirc)

[Julin Eurthyr]

Speaking of Lyrans, wasn't the ship mentioned above the BCPP (phaser and powerpack refit)?

Kinda
It is according to the OP+ shiplist, but it doesn't match the setup from SFB.
(which apparently used "B" isntead of "P" for either the phaser or power refit, can't remember which)
Powerpacks/shield/& the phaser refit were all available from Y168 (which is year 5 iin OP iirc)

B = powerpack, p (lowercase P) = phaser refit.

So the ship in question would be BCpB ??? I think Taldren's BCPP looks a bit neater (and cleaner)

You said 8 RMs.  Are the ISC gonna be in this, and how do they factor into the game, being I don't know if the ISC part of F&E is fully released yet?

it's looking like the first time we try this it's just gonna be the GW races but who knows what it'll actually be.

okay, cool... will let me see how this pans out before I have to decide if I can commit to it... since it seems the GW races are preety much covered...

[Kroma BaSyl]

Well rather than debate this in theory we could fly a few Gorn v Rom 3v3's and see what happens.

As much as I absolutely abhor the idea of agreeing with this guy, he's right.

Also (of course) you'd have to try it different eras, maybe the Rms are better in early/whatver with maulers, but iirc don't Gorn PFs absolutely smoke Rom PF's under AI control? (or maybe it's the other way around..)

t00l's right, we have to see how winnable these fights can be.   I'm game for tuesday night.

Not familiar with how the match ups come out with F&E rules, but under PBR rules gorn held their own, especially in early/mid. Late is a stretch though.

One way to handle it would be to alow "join" operations with allies, under certain limitations.

[FPF-DieHard]

Assuming a GW Scenario, so far we got the below regarding Race Leaderships . . .

Federation:  ?
Kzinti:  Dax
Hydran:  t00l
Gorn:  Kroma (?)

Klingon: ?
Lyran:  Hexx (?)
Romulan:  ?

I'll fly anything, who else is interested in running a side?

[Lieutenant_Q]

If need be I can run a side.  Any side, honestly.  My skills at flying are par at best (I can trounce AI, and can at least put up a fight in PvP, but expecting me to win a PvP fight... probably not going to happen, regardless of what race I'm flying) but I can devote the time to administration.

[FPF-DieHard]

If need be I can run a side.  Any side, honestly.  My skills at flying are par at best (I can trounce AI, and can at least put up a fight in PvP, but expecting me to win a PvP fight... probably not going to happen, regardless of what race I'm flying) but I can devote the time to administration.

You have an XP computer, a good internet connection, and a good strategic mind?

[Hexx]

If need be I can run a side.  Any side, honestly.  My skills at flying are par at best (I can trounce AI, and can at least put up a fight in PvP, but expecting me to win a PvP fight... probably not going to happen, regardless of what race I'm flying) but I can devote the time to administration.

You have <snip>a good strategic mind?

Uhmm

Lyran:  Hexx (?)

I'm not so sure your question stands up to scrutiny..

[Corbomite]

Assuming a GW Scenario, so far we got the below regarding Race Leaderships . . .

Federation:  ?
Kzinti:  Dax
Hydran:  t00l
Gorn:  Kroma (?)

Klingon: ?
Lyran:  Hexx (?)
Romulan:  ?

I'll fly anything, who else is interested in running a side?

I can do Romulan, but if there is to be no KCR(F) I need to know a few things. I can do the Feds too I suppose. I probably won't be home until 9 pm eastern tomorrow so I hope you guys will still be on TS.

[762_XC]

The KCR is so small in the grand scheme of things. Having a 2-1 ship superiority on the front you're fighting on is what matters, not a miniscule superiority in one ship's power curve.

That said the Roms can still build many other goodies like the Superhawk-B.

[Lieutenant_Q]

If need be I can run a side.  Any side, honestly.  My skills at flying are par at best (I can trounce AI, and can at least put up a fight in PvP, but expecting me to win a PvP fight... probably not going to happen, regardless of what race I'm flying) but I can devote the time to administration.

You have an XP computer, a good internet connection, and a good strategic mind?

Yes, Yes, and well, I have been called a military genius before (but I think that was in jest...).  But yes I do play Strategic games.

[FPF-DieHard]

Assuming a GW Scenario, so far we got the below regarding Race Leaderships . . .

Federation:  ?
Kzinti:  Dax
Hydran:  t00l
Gorn:  Kroma (?)

Klingon: ?
Lyran:  Hexx (?)
Romulan:  ?

I'll fly anything, who else is interested in running a side?

I can do Romulan, but if there is to be no KCR(F) I need to know a few things. I can do the Feds too I suppose. I probably won't be home until 9 pm eastern tomorrow so I hope you guys will still be on TS.

Who needs a KCR when you can build an FHX?

[Corbomite]

What year?

[FPF-DieHard]

What year?

It's about the same.

[FPF-DieHard]

Evil thought . ..

Lyran:  Hexx
Romulan:  Corbomite
Klingon:  Out of retirement . . .. .  Khunt!!!!

[Hexx]

Sounds good. I always enjoy working with Khunt.

[762_XC]

It's not like we can't have someone do two races in a pinch.

[Riskyllama]

I've never done an F&E game before then again i've never done a SFB game before, but this is interesting sounding

[FPF-DieHard]

I've never done an F&E game before . . .

Me neither, but then again we won't notice how different it is.

[Ronin]

Can't be there tonight (monthly poker game) but if a rusty pilot is needed anywhere as this progresses I would enjoy flying some time. I can fly pretty much any race with equal lack of skill.

[FPF-DieHard]

Cloak goes by separate rules, so the overpricing of the plasma ships has nothing to do with that.

Just give each of them another 6 EP's to deal with the overpriced ships.

I thought of a way to deal with the Gorns over-priced ships that let's the retain their "Gorniness."  Simply give the Gorns more spare parts, this empahsises their ability to take a beating.

Thoughts?

EDIT:   The more I look at the ship price on the SITs the more i see the complete lunacy in the pricing schemes.   In no reality should a Gorn CCH cost more to build than an F-BCF or K-C7.   Does anyone disagree with me?

SITs are found here:  http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/20881.html?1227653244

[762_XC]

We're fixing that by tweaking the econ up, remember?

I reallly, really do not want to reprice every plasma ship. Especially when the SIT's make such a handy reference.

[FPF-DieHard]

We're fixing that by tweaking the econ up, remember?

I reallly, really do not want to reprice every plasma ship. Especially when the SIT's make such a handy reference.

i guess just giving them more money can work, it's gotta be the simplest solution and God know we need SOMETHING simple.

[Kroma BaSyl]

We're fixing that by tweaking the econ up, remember?

I reallly, really do not want to reprice every plasma ship. Especially when the SIT's make such a handy reference.

i guess just giving them more money can work, it's gotta be the simplest solution and God know we need SOMETHING simple.

More money and/or tweaking parts sounds reasonable to me. Ultimately, if it isn't competitive the game won't go but a few turns.

The most important part with getting this to work the first time will be flexibility to tweak things mid campaign (because there is no way you will get the balance right straight out of the gate, as it is to complicated), this will require the players to be more interested in having the server last longer, than winning. To me whatever system allows for a meaningful setup of competitive combat is fine, the longer it last the better, and I don't care about the score at the end of the campaign. What will cause this effort to fail is if folks are more interested in winning than playing.

[Corbomite]

Scabby Galore makes a good point.

[Kroma BaSyl]

this will require the players to be more interested in having the server last longer, than winning.

Thinking about this a little more, they might not be mutually exclusive. If "tweaking" (say giving an overrun race extra econ points) went along with keeping track of the value of that "tweak", a score could be calculated at the end (regardless of the status of the map) as to who "won". The "tweaker" would be like a Dungeonmaster. Changing the "rules" when appropriate to keep things moving and interesting, and following the "script" (general arch of the General War), so that the senerios (tactical combat) keeps coming. However, by tracking how much handicapping was done we can ultimately give bragging rights to the team that played best, regardless of whether they dominated the map. This way even if the "dungeonmaster" over or under-compensates in the tweaking, no one need worry he is favoring any race over the other, since all tweaks come at a point cost. This would allow the "dungeonmaster" to shape the campaign in a way that lets the "historical" matchups playout over the course of the game, without worrying about unfairly effecting the "outcome" as to winners and losers.

[762_XC]

I think the campaign will have so much fudge factor as we figure out what the hell we are doing, that bragging rights in the strategic sense will ultimately lose all meaning.

For tactical battles it's another story.

[Kroma BaSyl]

I think the campaign will have so much fudge factor as we figure out what the hell we are doing, that bragging rights in the strategic sense will ultimately lose all meaning.

For tactical battles it's another story.

exactly. being able to hear you swear after I blow up your ship is all I really need.

[762_XC]

Only if you drop an admin.

[Hexx]

Only if you drop an admin.

We did agree this was a tactic, right?