Topic: Question regarding GSC

[Lieutenant_Q]

Tracing Phasers were used in DC#10 (I'm pretty sure it was #10, might have been #9) by the Excelsior to find the cloaked ISS Enterprise as she was attempting to hide from the Excelsior after the Enterprise attacked a Starbase.  The Tracing Phasers bounced around a lot like the tracking Photon Torpedo launched from the 1701A in ST:VI until it found the Enterprise and then proceeded to pummel it.  It was just a DC invention, they actually took quite a bit of flak for it from fans, people wrote in asking what the heck they were, and DC's official response was, "Just like you had never heard of Transwarp Drive before, the Tracing Phasers are another new invention!"  Clearly, they didn't know what Phasers were supposed to be.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.  Ship lists:
Hermes: SC/SC/Retired
Saladin: DD/FF/Retired
Oberth: NE(Non-Existent)/SC/SC
Miranda: NE/NCA/DD *
Soyuz: NE/NCL/FF
Constitution: CA/CA/Retired
Federation: DN/DN/Retired
Excelsior: NE/BC/CL
Excelsior II: NE/BCH/CM
Constellation: NE/NCA/HDW
Ambassador: NE/BCH/CA
Galaxy: NE/NE/DN
Nebula: NE/NE/GSC
Defiant: NE/NE/HDW
Intrepid: NE/NE/CL
Sabre: NE/NE/FF
Steamrunner: NE/NE/DD
Prometheus: NE/NE/BCH
Akira: NE/NE/CA
Nova: NE/NE/SC

* - I don't agree with the line of thinking that the Miranda seen in ST:II is simply a refit of a TOS era ship.  If that were the case the Miranda would not be seeing front-line action in the Dominion War, while the remaining Constitutions were relegated to National Guard status, if they were even re-activated in the first place.

There's a lot of overlap, especially when you consider that the central shiplist covers a time frame of almost 100 years, I think there is probably room in the TOS shiplist to take at the very least the first 6 movies into account.  When I was doing some work on a cross era shiplist, I considered using a Tech Level for the weapons/shields/hull, but this was for a game that was to be built from scratch, not something that was to be used for an already existing game that such modifications to weaponry couldn't be made.

[Lieutenant_Q]

The Akira probably has a similar modularity as the Miranda and Nebula does.  The Akira seen in First Contact had an ungodly number of torpedo launchers that, from a logistical standpoint, just doesn't make sense.  Unlike SFB/SFC you do have to carry torpedoes.  The configuration makes sense in the FC scenario, when you don't expect your ship to last more than three or four hits, you want to be able to throw every torpedo you have at the Cube as quickly as possible.  I know I hate having munitions go down with a unit.  But for a campaign, you don't want a ship running out of Photons after one battle, and in a protracted engagement, running out half way during the battle isn't good either.  I would probably still keep the Akira Classified as a CA, with an option mount that would normally be filled with Sensors, but for wartime purposes could be outfitted with EW equipment, or in the case of a one time battle, lots and lots of torpedo launchers.

Yeah, with the New Orleans still a relatively new ship, it would probably be a good FF (I didn't include it on the list because AFAIK it was never seen on screen), then I would classify the Sabre as either a FFB, or maybe a DW.  As for the Nova, I would still classify it as a SC, I would expect that they would probably be retiring the Oberths as the Novas are built.  Otherwise the Nova could probably be classified as a Scout (Battle) or a Heavy Scout.  Although from dialogue in Equinox, the Nova wasn't intended to be a long range ship, so maybe classifying it as a Scout might be a bit off, maybe a Survey Cruiser instead?

[Age]

I'm interested in your approach to "more than 4 PF aboard your carrier." I'm working on a ftrlist that has  what I call "Figher/Interceptors," or super-heavy fighters in SFB terms. Phaser1s, drone racks, speeds of 25+, damage rating of 25-30, and using the awesome Space: 1999 Hawks Atheorhaven made on Battleclinic.

I like this now this can take on those Cav. 3s.

[TAnimaL]

I think the discussion about the Nova in "Equinox" is that it was not a fast ship, not that it was not long range. As a more pure "science" vessel, I imagine it would stay on site for a longer period  but it's top speed was WF8 (TNG, about WF10 in TOS terms).

Of course, we know the real reason we see Excelsiors & Mirandas in TNG is TV budget, but since they do show up, I expect that they were made for a longer period and that some we saw were newer builds. (Maybe they kept a shipyard open as a political boon to someone) THe nice thing is that, really, you can do whatever you want with some of these ships. The Akiras and Sabres are rarely seen, the New Orleans never, and TNG Oberths, Mirandas, Saratogas, etc etc. could be completely different from their TMP counterparts. It's a blank slate really, make 'em what you want.

A late-era notion from SFB (for the never-completed revamp of the X2 ships) borrows from the HDW ships, with a set of option boxes onboard that could be mission configurable for different missions. We don't have the luxury of option mounts in SFC but if you had the time, one could make a few variants of these options for "flex use" ships like Akira and Nebula.

[TAnimaL]

Stellar Fortress is a new one to me, since I havfen't played/bought any SFB/F&E in a decade, but here's the description of the Sector Base from Module R8- System Defence Command

[TAnimaL]

Internally, a Sector Base somehwere between a BATS and a SB:
6 P4, 6 P3, 2 W1 (360 arc) and 2 W2 (360 arc), 3 W3; see above, {edit: the "double T" symbol means 1 of each, the "funny Y" means 1 LS, 1 RS, the LDR W2 is only 1 ESG]
36 Aux Power, 8 Btty, 8Lab, 8 Trans, 8 Shuttle, 44 Cargo, 44 C Hull Repair 8 Contorl, 75 Repair 6 "Fabrication", 2 Probe, 4 Special Snsors
Shields 60 all around + 18 Armor, plus the usual 2-3 Hangar/PF Bays for 12 Fighters and (6) PF, or 18 Fighters for non-PF races.

BPV 280 + hangars, crew 140, 24 BP, deployed in SFB Y175, which would be  "Late" era in SFC, about 5-7 years through the General War, so call it SFC Y 5 if you like.

As far as how it works, how it is deployed, etc., there's some wiggle room. (I never played with one) The Designer's notes are brief but maybe I'll lok thru some F&E stuff I have. Unlike SBs, ships can't dock internally for repairs, but there are external bays for repairs.

Hope some of this info helps

[TAnimaL]

I believe I understand your question, and the indirect but more complete answer is, "One is SFB and the one is Star Trek."

As far as SFB goes, the "original source" material is the ST Tech Manual by Franz Josephs, and the Fed Scout is a variant of the Fed DD. It became fized that "scouts' replaced the heavy weapons with Special Sensors which are susceptible to be blinded by weapons fire, moer so from heavies than from phasers. All ships got a probe launcher, scouts and survey ships got 2 sometimes, and SFC ported this concept to SFC.

(Sidenote: some Survey ships keep some heavy weapons, like the GSC and some scouts, like R-SPC & SK-F)

In Star Trek (ok, TNG and onward), the launchers serve multiple functions, able to fire probes and photon torpedoes.

I prefer that personally, but IMHO if you were designing a game version of Star Trek torpedoes, the rules would work differently than SFB photon torpedoes (like making them speed 96 missiles with an arming turn of 2 points and a launching turn of 1 point), but that's another discussion.

I would think, General War and later, into the Next Generation and beyond, that the consensus would be tht scouts and survey ships sometimes need heavy firepower and should have torpedoes. In TNG the launchers have dual functions, and in SFB, maybe that era (Y180 and later) they solved teh "blinding" issue.

Long and short of it, in SFC a unit needs probe launchers to launch probes, and Special Snsors don't do much, so load 'em up I say

[TAnimaL]

Hee, I guess the modelmakers at ILM forgot to put those on.

Since all this is retcon anyway, I suppose you could make the case that the Oberth-class is the exception to the rule. We've never seen any of those type ships fire torps, and most fan blueprints leave out a launcher. Perhaps there's some sort of "bomb bay" they drop out of, or from the shuttlebay. As a scout, in the Star Trek usage of the term, it must be cable of launching probes, but it was also established that these are science vessels with little combat ability.

There's evidence that the Federation takes a "high road" at times within Starfleet - they agreed to not develop or deploy cloaking devices in the Treaty of Algeron and got in trouble when they did (TNG "Pegasus"). One of several ways Starfleet differs from a modern navy. It's possible that Starfleet agreed to some "arms limitation" treaty in the TMP era that stated the Oberth-class was a pure science ship, sort of like Cousteau Society's Calypso but part of the US Navy. Just throwing out ideas.

[knightstorm]

F stands for frigate, S stands for swivel.

[knightstorm]

I think its that the launcher is designed to swivel to grant it greater weapons arcs.

[knightstorm]

Hee, I guess the modelmakers at ILM forgot to put those on.

Since all this is retcon anyway, I suppose you could make the case that the Oberth-class is the exception to the rule. We've never seen any of those type ships fire torps, and most fan blueprints leave out a launcher. Perhaps there's some sort of "bomb bay" they drop out of, or from the shuttlebay. As a scout, in the Star Trek usage of the term, it must be cable of launching probes, but it was also established that these are science vessels with little combat ability.

There's evidence that the Federation takes a "high road" at times within Starfleet - they agreed to not develop or deploy cloaking devices in the Treaty of Algeron and got in trouble when they did (TNG "Pegasus"). One of several ways Starfleet differs from a modern navy. It's possible that Starfleet agreed to some "arms limitation" treaty in the TMP era that stated the Oberth-class was a pure science ship, sort of like Cousteau Society's Calypso but part of the US Navy. Just throwing out ideas.

The Federation prioritizes exploration.  Hence the reason the Galaxy class is classified as an explorer.  I think most fed ships hold that classification with few exceptions.  Namely the Oberth and Nova classes, and the Defiant class which is believe is classified as an escort.  Also, the Galaxy class seems to also prioritize diplomacy over defense.  The way I see it, the class was designed during a period of relative calm.  There was an alliance with the Klingons, and the Romulans had gone into isolation.  While there were some minor border conflicts such as the Cardassian border war, there was nothing that could threaten the federations existence so defense was less of a priority.  That also helps to explain why they built the ship with a petting zoo.  The Galaxy class was obviously intended to show the flag and impress foreign dignitaries by showing them how much useless #@#% you can cram on a ship.

[TAnimaL]

TAnimal,

Plasma G stand for Gorns and the Plasma R for Romulans; then what's the F, S, X, E and I for?

I'm guessing X for X Era, E for Engine dampening and I for ISC??

Adam

The names R & G do go back to the early "pocket' editions of SFB, when there were just "Romulan" and "Gorn" torpedoes, but nomenclature was changed to just "R" & "G" by Expansion 2 or 3 in 1980. (The S was oringinally called the "G-II" then.) I suppose you could say the letters were chosed to match a name ("F" for "Fast", for example) but these names were never used in the Commander's Edition and onwards.

"Swivel" mounts are available for all torpedoes; originally the launchers are 120 degree arcs and expandable to 180 (except Rs) for an additional 2-3 BPV. Most, if not all, plasma ships in SFC seem to have swivel mounts.

I agree on the Federation's focus on exploration, but remember that the Oberth -class was seen in ST3, before an alliance with the Klingons. Now, SFB/SFC supposes a General War in the post-TOS/TMP era, and something happened between the laidback pajama-wearing Starfleet of TMP and the Hornblower/naval Starfleet of TWOK, so maybe the Oberths were designed during the TOS, when skirts were short and exploration was the thing. By ST3, something resembling detente or a Cold War at least let Starfleet relax a bit and start building them again. CLearly a durable design since we see them in use 78 years later but ready to be phased out by the Nova-class (and of course, because reusing models is cheaper in a TV budget).

[knightstorm]

I agree on the Federation's focus on exploration, but remember that the Oberth -class was seen in ST3, before an alliance with the Klingons. Now, SFB/SFC supposes a General War in the post-TOS/TMP era, and something happened between the laidback pajama-wearing Starfleet of TMP and the Hornblower/naval Starfleet of TWOK, so maybe the Oberths were designed during the TOS, when skirts were short and exploration was the thing. By ST3, something resembling detente or a Cold War at least let Starfleet relax a bit and start building them again. CLearly a durable design since we see them in use 78 years later but ready to be phased out by the Nova-class (and of course, because reusing models is cheaper in a TV budget).

When I was talking about the era of relative peace, I was referring to the Galaxy class, namely trying to explain why its a bloated cruise ship.  Seriously, the evacuation scene in Generations looked like the movie Airplane.  The Oberth and Nova classes were designed as specialty role ships.  As for the skirts, they were still short in the first season of TNG, only this time the guys were wearing them.

[TAnimaL]

Why are you laughing? I'm wearing one now...

[knightstorm]

Kind of odd if G is Gorn and R is Romulan, then why would Romulans have the advantage of downgrading their torpedos but Gorn can't do the same. Was there every a story that explained how Gorns obtained R torps?
It's so interesting how you can wiki just about everything except ADB/SFB material. That's classified.

Adam

I think its a game balance issue.  G and R torps are the heavy weapons of their respective unrefitted heavy cruisers.  The Gorn is faster and has more phasers, while the Rom has a massive torpedo.

[TAnimaL]

Again, the "G=Gorn" and "R=Rom" names go waaaayyy back and were never used after 1982. The Roms had big ones, and the Gorns smaller ones. The idea of downgrading came later in game design terms but the "timeline" of when the races developed them isn't the same and was retconned as the years have gone by.

Sorry if i was unclear on "F" for "Fast" - it wasn't a reference to speed, but how they could be "fastloaded" by larger size launchers; again, a term dropped from usage long time ago. In SFB, there is not really an "I" plasma, but special launchers on ISC ships that fire type "F" plasmas; same thing with a different name in SFC. The SFC plasma "X" torpedo is the SFB plasma "M" that is used only in X-ships, and unlike SFC, the "M" moves at the same speed as all plasmas (32 in SFB), not 40. (There have been attempts over the years for seeking weapons that move faster than 32 but the rules get very messy, so there's only one, the "hyperdrone" used by a "simulator" race.

The plasma-E, as far as I know, is just a SFC invention, although there are other weapons/systemes in SFB that can slow down a enemy ship. In the "Alpha Octant" of SFB (that is, the races we know from ST and SFC), there are only have phasers 1,2,3, & 4 (and G). The phaser M (almost but not quite a phaser4 that can be ship mounted) is a conjectural weapon only and not "officially real." There is also another set of races, the "Omega Octant," on the other side of the Gorn/Rom and ISC part of the galaxy, filled with all new species and empires, who have a variety of different phasers and weapons that may be impossible to ever add to SFC. (It's my guess that the Omega races are a backup set, in case, say,  a large media group were to ever decide to remove certain copyrighted material from usage by ADB, but that's just me)

It's so interesting how you can wiki just about everything except ADB/SFB material. That's classified.

Adam

Yeah, and there's a longer story and twisted history on that topic, but I won't be the one to say "Beetlejuice" three times...

[TAnimaL]

No problem, glad to answer. The god news about SFB and it's universe is that there's a lot of details. That's also the bad news

[Nemesis]

The names R & G do go back to the early "pocket' editions of SFB, when there were just "Romulan" and "Gorn" torpedoes, but nomenclature was changed to just "R" & "G" by Expansion 2 or 3 in 1980. (The S was oringinally called the "G-II" then.) I suppose you could say the letters were chosed to match a name ("F" for "Fast", for example) but these names were never used in the Commander's Edition and onwards.

"Swivel" mounts are available for all torpedoes; originally the launchers are 120 degree arcs and expandable to 180 (except Rs) for an additional 2-3 BPV. Most, if not all, plasma ships in SFC seem to have swivel mounts.

As I recall the S was for the swivel mount that only they had at the time and F was not fast but Fixed as it was in a stasis device "fixed in time".

[Nemesis]

Was there every a story that explained how Gorns obtained R torps?

Adam

You don't really need such a story as it is simply a matter of scaling.  The original R launcher was supposed to be so large that essentially with the War Eagle it was a weapon with a ship wrapped around it.  Improved tech let there be smaller devices generating larger plasma torps. 

[Age]

And MRS stands for "MultiRole Shuttle," a slightly more durable shuttle. It carries a few more weapons (a couple of drones or Plasma-D), is slightly faster and can lend some EW to it's host, something that can't be done in SFC.

Other than the shuttle conversionto fighters, there's no differences between a GSC and CVL. Both get the same + & AWR refit.

As far as SCS goes, to me, it's just a size issue. Any ship that is big enough to carry 4 PFs (6 in SFB) and 12 fighters can be called a SCS. (In SFB, there's a "Stellar Domination Ship," basically what you call a BB turned into a SCS. So, if it's a big ship, sure, it could be a SCS or SDS.

Given that a TNG Galaxy is sooo much bigger than a TOS CA it could easily be a SDS/SCS. While only seen once, we know that 1701D could carry a runabout (or more). Personally I was always bugged by how in SFB some ships could carry 6 PF without affecting it's movement cost, one reason I was pleased to see a PF flotilla "reduced" in SFC to 4. In SFB there are some CA-size SCS but I feel that function should be reerved for larger sized ships.

Just for giggles, here's the SFB diagram for a GSC.

Where can you look online to see more diagrams of other ships so I don't have to go ito shipedit?

I often wondered why there is no forward phaser type 1 and imo all Fed ships should have type 1 phaser no 2 or 3s.