Topic: Question regarding GSC

[Captain Adam]

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[TAnimaL]

In a latticework of coincidence, ("shrimp," "plate," "plate o shrimp") ...
I noticed today that on Memory BEta wiki the featured article is on the Nova-class  http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Nova_class  , a science vessel. According to the STTNG Tech Manual, a Galaxy-class was considered a "Explorer" class, defined as a multipurpose vesssel  able to perform several duties at once, with extended range and duration, usually heavy cruiser-size or larger. The wiki (states/suggests) that Explorers, as the largest ships, are synonymous with Battleships.

GSCs were for survey and scientific missions, and in SFB, were converted to light carriers in time or war/conflict, so, yes, I believe the fighters are a response. When I get a chance later I could post the SFB ship description if you'd like.

(After noting here that SFB does not acknowledge TNG, or any ST after 1979) The size of a Galaxy-class alone makes it like Battleship, and it's use throughout the show indicates that it is not as inferiorly-armed as the GSC is compared to the CA. IMHO, I could see going two ways with it:

• Imagine a GSC combined with a BC. Full heavy weapon mounts, but with additional Special Sensors, labs, and a shuttle bay that could handle fighters
• a Battleship, with a LOT more labs, and sensors.

Since "Special Sensors"  from SFB have no function in SFC, maybe add more probes, built-in EW. Just some thoughts to start this rolling

[TAnimaL]

From SFB Advanced Missions:

[TAnimaL]

No doubt you have seen Lord Schtupp's TOS Galaxy-class model, which I love, if a pre-TNG version is what you're looking for. I made up some specs for this ship for my own use, iy anyone's interested.

[TarMinyatur]

HTS is a Heavy Transport Shuttle, about twice the size and durability of an Admin Shuttle. It could be loaded with a Ground Combat Vehicle or two Boarding Parties or various cargo items. It could not be used as a Scatterpack or a Wild Weasel. I don't remember if an HTS could be converted into a Suicide Shuttle.

[TAnimaL]

And MRS stands for "MultiRole Shuttle," a slightly more durable shuttle. It carries a few more weapons (a couple of drones or Plasma-D), is slightly faster and can lend some EW to it's host, something that can't be done in SFC.

Other than the shuttle conversionto fighters, there's no differences between a GSC and CVL. Both get the same + & AWR refit.

As far as SCS goes, to me, it's just a size issue. Any ship that is big enough to carry 4 PFs (6 in SFB) and 12 fighters can be called a SCS. (In SFB, there's a "Stellar Domination Ship," basically what you call a BB turned into a SCS. So, if it's a big ship, sure, it could be a SCS or SDS.

Given that a TNG Galaxy is sooo much bigger than a TOS CA it could easily be a SDS/SCS. While only seen once, we know that 1701D could carry a runabout (or more). Personally I was always bugged by how in SFB some ships could carry 6 PF without affecting it's movement cost, one reason I was pleased to see a PF flotilla "reduced" in SFC to 4. In SFB there are some CA-size SCS but I feel that function should be reerved for larger sized ships.

Just for giggles, here's the SFB diagram for a GSC.

[TAnimaL]

D'oh, forgot to mention, FWIW, a HTS can be used as a WW, but not as any other kind o shuttlte (suicide, scatterpack, minesweeper, lab)

[Lieutenant_Q]

Given that a TNG Galaxy is sooo much bigger than a TOS CA it could easily be a SDS/SCS. While only seen once, we know that 1701D could carry a runabout (or more). Personally I was always bugged by how in SFB some ships could carry 6 PF without affecting it's movement cost, one reason I was pleased to see a PF flotilla "reduced" in SFC to 4. In SFB there are some CA-size SCS but I feel that function should be reerved for larger sized ships.

The Enterprise dropped 3 of them off at DS9 in the Emissary.  It's shuttle bays were probably emptied to carry all three of those, but I could imagine them fitting two in the main shuttlebay.  Not sure where they'd squeeze #3, maybe one of the battlehull's bays, but both of those look extremely tiny for that.

[TAnimaL]

Thanks, I forgot about the 3 runabouts in "Emissary," and I agree about the secondary shuttlebays being too tight for them. But if you go by Rick Strenback's 1701D blueprints, the main shuttle bay on deck 4 wraps all the way around, with ceiling space taken out of deck 3. You can see it here:
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-the-next-generation-enterprise.php

but you can only see the thumbnails. Working from home today, so maybe at lunch I'll get out my hard copy and a ruler 

My point is that a Galaxy is so big, throwing a bunch of small ships in it or hanging on external mechlinks is not going to add to the movement cost at all. As far as other TNG matches for SFC ships, the lcars blueprint site http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints-main.php might give up some clues. Oberths and Novas for FF, Norway and Sabre for DD, Akira for CAs... All this reminds me of someone's SFC mod that included TNG ships and models. I'll have to dig around my files.

[Javora]

The Enterprise dropped 3 of them off at DS9 in the Emissary.  It's shuttle bays were probably emptied to carry all three of those, but I could imagine them fitting two in the main shuttlebay.  Not sure where they'd squeeze #3, maybe one of the battlehull's bays, but both of those look extremely tiny for that.

IIRC the 1701D has a spot under the saucer section for the captain's yacht.  Maybe they dropped off the captain's yacht where they picked up the runabouts and stored a runabout there.

[TAnimaL]

You do recall correctly, but the yacht was a different shape, sort of an elliptical saucer. Voyager and Equinox too had some sort of shuttle under their saucers that we sadly never saw used; the prevailing theory on Voyager is that it hadn't been installed yet when it got lost. The Galaxy also had lots of never-seen-used cargo hatches on the bottom that could be used for that, I suppose.

By the blueprints, the 1701D main shuttlebay is at least 60m wide and 70m deep, not counting the area that  wraps around the hull, wide and deep enough for many runabouts or PFs. There only seems to be about 6 1/4 m vertical space, so a runabout would just fint at 5.4m.

The TNG mod I was thinking of was Chris Jones' AGT mod for SFC1, which included many canon and conjectural TNG era ships, all set in SFC1 (so no Xtech), and included models and scripts. It's still up on gamefront if anyone's interested. The laptop I have SFC1 on isn't starting up right now, but later I could extract the shiplist from the AGT mod if you'd like to see it, Adam

[knightstorm]

The TNG mod I was thinking of was Chris Jones' AGT mod for SFC1, which included many canon and conjectural TNG era ships, all set in SFC1 (so no Xtech), and included models and scripts. It's still up on gamefront if anyone's interested. The laptop I have SFC1 on isn't starting up right now, but later I could extract the shiplist from the AGT mod if you'd like to see it, Adam

He also did one for OP called Universe at War.

[Age]

It was also noted that the GSC in the animated searies was the first ship to come with an actual warp core not coil.

[TAnimaL]

gee, I had forgotten about Galaxies At War, I think I d'loaded it and never installed, have to dig around

One thing non-players need to understand about SFB is that there are many, many rules. And by that I mean, many... There's a lot. There are some to keep things balanced about fleet limits and command-and-control limits, partly because somewhere sometime some players pushed the rules to the limit, and then a rule to officiate future disputes arose. (All this is one of seeveral reasons I'm glad to have moved on to SFC from SFB) So, usually, yes, Bases (BS, BATS, SB) are limited to one PF hangar module. I forget how hard and fast the rules were, but "officially" you could only have 1 PF flotilla (of 6) in a battlegroup of 11 (a game limit); each flotilla counts as 1 unit, so you could have 2 flotillas but only 10 ships. Fighter groups count in there too; it gets complicated. Remember also, that each of these units need to have a form filled out with thier energy plt for each turn. Does your brain hurt yet? One turn (32 impluses, or the time it takes to almost arm a photon fully) with 9-11 ships per side, would take an hour if you were lucky.

I love SFC.

I'm interested in your approach to "more than 4 PF aboard your carrier." I'm working on a ftrlist that has  what I call "Figher/Interceptors," or super-heavy fighters in SFB terms. Phaser1s, drone racks, speeds of 25+, damage rating of 25-30, and using the awesome Space: 1999 Hawks Atheorhaven made on Battleclinic.

[TAnimaL]

ah, the "Fi-Con" approach. I like it, but it does create that imbalance in the "repair a PF and it gains it's own PF back" part but that might not be a deal breaker. Let me ask you this: what happens if you recall "PF A" while its "PF B" is still on map? Does PF B disappear? Or wander off on its own?

I've wanted to try a version of this, with a fighter launching 2 fighters that launch 4 fighters, for a sort-of "whack-a-mole" overwhelming death by pinprick force...

[Lieutenant_Q]

That's the deal with multiple eras.  Even in SFC2 and SFC3, the Excelsior went from a BCH to just a plain CA.  Technology outstrips the hulls, and their original purpose changes to fit their new role.  Obviously some ships are too big to fall all the way down the chart, but the Miranda obviously went from an NCA (in ST:II) to a Destroyer or a Frigate by DS9.  I don't ever see the Galaxy or a Ambassador falling below a Cruiser, no matter what kind of tech advances come out of it.  (Unless Starfleet takes a page from the Galactic Empire and starts building ships that are 10 to 20 kilometers long)

[Lieutenant_Q]

Some considered it a Dreadnought, if you read the DC comics that came out at the time of STIII, the writers of the comics clearly thought the Excelsior was a Battleship. Gave it "Tracing Phasers", automated repair systems, heavy shields (at one point the Excelsior took several minutes of sustained fire from a Terran Empire Armada, and only took damage because she couldn't get her shields up in time)

I've always considered the Excelsior a Battle Cruiser, definitely a successor to the Constitution.  It probably was considered a suitable BCH while the Constitution was still in service.  But by the time the Ambassador and then the Galaxy came out, she would probably be reduced to a Medium Cruiser, or even a Light Cruiser.

[TAnimaL]

I'd mostly agree with that for the Ambassador in terms of classification but not size. By all metrics, \Excelsior is half-again to double the size of a Connie, making it DN or BB in TMP era, but by TNG, when that class is still flying, it's gotta be a Cruiser

Another way to look at it would be comparable to the Fed DN. It appears in 2249-50(?year -13?) and is a DN for that era but not not much more armed than a CA. The DN+ comes along and supplants it, later replaced with the DNG and DNH. It's always a DN (1.5 movement, a certain size) but gets better and better weapons or tech. Same thing with X-ships. The first ones like the Fed CCX in 2280 is an improvement over other ships of that time  but is a lightweight compared to the later X-ships of the Advanced era like the XCA & XCB.

I think you might be able to make those different eras work in the same shiplist but that's a personal preference and it might be easier to do it as you are. To read between the lines, are you scaling ships down as the years go by? So that a CA in TOS/TMP has a movement of 1 and 90-110 internals, and in TNG it's a frigate with a movement of 1/3 and 30-40 internals. Don't mean to rush you if you're not ready to reveal but I'm intriguied by that. Just getting bigger and bigger ships could get unwieldy for sure. A Galaxy has to be 4 to 6 times a Constitution.

ps I believe the tracking phasers and such are just a DC comic invention

[knightstorm]

A first season TNG episode (conspiracy) referred to the Ambassador class as a heavy cruiser.  Yesterday's Enterprise referred to the alternate Galaxy class as a battleship.

[TAnimaL]

not to quibble but we didn't see any of the other ships in "Conspiracy;" Ambassador-class 1701C wasn't seen until "Y'day's Enterprise"
Was there a line in "Conspiracy" that said Ambassador class?

edit: Yes, there was; Data says "It is an Ambassador-class heavy cruiser USS Horatio." We just didn't see one until they had the budget to build 1701C a few seasons later