Topic: So anyone still play?  (Read 81410 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline knightstorm

  • His Imperial Highness, Norton II, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2104
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #120 on: January 20, 2014, 02:56:35 pm »

@kightstrom
I took them to be just like torpedos aboard a submarine when I first heard about them way back in 1971 in syndication.

160 years ago, a torpedo was an explosive on the end of a stick.  Definitions change through time.  The photon torpedoes looked like balls of light, and alot of the licensed materials of the time like technical guides described them as energy weapons.


They didn't use missles though.


By definition, photon torpedoes as they eventually appeared in canon are a type of guided missile.

Offline Age

  • D.Net VIP
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #121 on: January 20, 2014, 05:57:51 pm »
Whatever it is still a torpedo that reqiures no energy to arm.Missles aren't torps buy why.

It is just in game an S plama torp desn't need the amount of time to charge/load compared to photons.It doesn't have the holding cost of that of photon or disruptor.

Offline knightstorm

  • His Imperial Highness, Norton II, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2104
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2014, 10:52:08 am »
Whatever it is still a torpedo that reqiures no energy to arm

And like I stated, before TWOK, licensed publications described photon torpedoes as energy weapons, which do require ships energy to manufacture and maintain.  SFB adopted that concept, which is how it ended up in SFC.  Why can't you get that?

Missles aren't torps buy why.


Can you rephrase that?  I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Offline TAnimaL

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 771
  • Gender: Male
    • Combat Logs from the Cold Depths of Space
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2014, 01:39:27 pm »
um, I'm not really understanding how whether torpedoes are missiles or missiles are energy or plasmas are photons can affect whether or not someone still plays these games or not. I tried rereading parts of this thread but my head started hurting and watching the snow collect out my window became more interesting ::)

I'm sure the end of life for XP will have long-term repercussions for these games but it seems the passions that still are carried over trivialities by the peoples on this forum show that we still play, and care, about SFC, and where there's a will, there's a way to keep it going. After all, weren't SFC1-OP all written for Windows 2000?

Offline Age

  • D.Net VIP
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2014, 05:10:08 pm »
Whatever it is still a torpedo that reqiures no energy to arm


And like I stated, before TWOK, licensed publications described photon torpedoes as energy weapons, which do require ships energy to manufacture and maintain.  SFB adopted that concept, which is how it ended up in SFC.  Why can't you get that?

Missles aren't torps buy why.



Can you rephrase that?  I don't understand what you're trying to say here.


In part you are right.
This is what this says.
http://www.st-intelligence.com/tech_database/dom/photon.php

Would you say this are the same.
Star Trek Phase 2: "Kitumba" - Episode 4x08

Offline Captain Adam

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 754
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2014, 05:39:33 pm »
.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:16:21 pm by Captain Adam »
Odo :    
"Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honour with you."
to O'Brien
DS9 : Tribunal

Offline TAnimaL

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 771
  • Gender: Male
    • Combat Logs from the Cold Depths of Space
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2014, 10:48:10 am »
It"s definitely a fan-boy site, but the tech it states is the same as the TNG/DS9 tech manuals, so it depends how you feel about them. As far as canon goes, the debate over photorps are "energy or missile" can be never-ending because one can find evidence to support either contention. In TOS, they didn't really pay much attention to the tech, and post-TMP they had cool physical props to play with. It comes down to what the individual player's preference, imo.

Offline Captain Adam

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 754
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2014, 11:40:24 am »
.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:16:14 pm by Captain Adam »
Odo :    
"Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honour with you."
to O'Brien
DS9 : Tribunal

Offline TAnimaL

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 771
  • Gender: Male
    • Combat Logs from the Cold Depths of Space
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #128 on: January 22, 2014, 04:10:12 pm »
I don't want to say that you don't make sense, Captain Adam, but... I thi!nk it'd be safer to say, I have no clue as to what the question was anymore! :D

Offline Captain Adam

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 754
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #129 on: January 22, 2014, 04:21:42 pm »
.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:16:01 pm by Captain Adam »
Odo :    
"Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honour with you."
to O'Brien
DS9 : Tribunal

Offline Age

  • D.Net VIP
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #130 on: January 22, 2014, 07:04:02 pm »
There can't be photons because.

http://bigthink.com/videos/why-we-cant-fire-the-photon-torpedoes

Missles are chemicaly fueled warhead that travel well under impluse speeds.That any phaser or even laser could shoot down.

tor·pe·do  (tôr-pd)
n. pl. tor·pe·does
1. A cigar-shaped, self-propelled underwater projectile launched from a submarine, aircraft, or ship and designed to detonate on contact with or in the vicinity of a target.
2. Any of various submarine explosive devices, especially a submarine mine.
3. A small explosive placed on a railroad track that is fired by the weight of the train to sound a warning of an approaching hazard.
4. An explosive fired in an oil or gas well to begin or increase the flow.
5. A small firework consisting of gravel wrapped in tissue paper with a percussion cap that explodes when thrown against a hard surface.
6. See electric ray.
7. Slang A professional assassin or thug.
8. Chiefly New Jersey See submarine. See Regional Note at submarine.
tr.v. tor·pe·doed, tor·pe·do·ing, tor·pe·does
1. To attack, strike, or sink with a torpedo.
2. To destroy decisively; wreck: torpedo efforts at reform.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/torpedo

This if we really want to get techical.I maybe fanboy which is why I play why do you?

Offline Captain Adam

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 754
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #131 on: January 22, 2014, 07:28:11 pm »
.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:21:22 pm by Captain Adam »
Odo :    
"Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honour with you."
to O'Brien
DS9 : Tribunal

Offline knightstorm

  • His Imperial Highness, Norton II, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2104
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2014, 07:46:37 pm »
There can't be photons because.



Missles are chemicaly fueled warhead that travel well under impluse speeds.That any phaser or even laser could shoot down.



A missile is a projectile that moves through air or space.  There is no speed limit on what can be considered a missile.  Photon torpedoes are guided missiles.

Even the Klingon/federation emissary traveled in a photon torpedo tube at warp in one of the episodes.
It was a high speed probe in emmisary.  For the record, while its never been stated on screen, and thus is not canon, an issue of Star Trek magazine in the late 90s stated that photon torpedoes are sub-light weapons.  While they have a theoretical top speed of warp one, they have a limited quantity of anti-matter which is used for both propulsion, and detonation.  The faster they go, the lower their yield.

Offline Captain Adam

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 754
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #133 on: January 22, 2014, 07:55:49 pm »
.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:21:15 pm by Captain Adam »
Odo :    
"Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honour with you."
to O'Brien
DS9 : Tribunal

Offline Captain Adam

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 754
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #134 on: January 22, 2014, 08:26:40 pm »
.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:21:03 pm by Captain Adam »
Odo :    
"Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honour with you."
to O'Brien
DS9 : Tribunal

Offline TAnimaL

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 771
  • Gender: Male
    • Combat Logs from the Cold Depths of Space
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2014, 09:19:34 am »
By your own admission Knightstorm, that tech on photorps in that ST mag was not canon, so we can consider it not true, especially when you consider how many examples in TNG/DSP/Voy of the torps being warp speed, from "Encounter at Farpoint" on. While I can't think of an actual moment when a character flatly states "torpedoes are ftl/sublight," the obvious conclusion, based on everything we've seen, is that the photon torpedoes are physical objects (TWOK onward) that require energy to fire. (TNG, S1ep5 "The Last Outpost," Lt. Yar says "We have energy to arm the photons but none to fire them.") The TNG Tech Manual, written by those who provided the science/technical advising for the show, says that photon torpedoes can be both sublight and FTL, depending on how they are launched, which is the same as what the "Daystrom Institute" site you provided Capt Adam (see footnotes there). So I'd say it's as "accurate" as you can get.

You sure are right about the "SFX" people, Capt Adam, but not their fault ;) - it's always plot driven, which is why this is such a muddled topic. The "swooping seeking" photorp looked cool in ST6, and they could use it to comedic effect in "Message in a Bottle," so they did.

Look, to try to "agree to disagree," let's reiterate - it's a TV show/movie series of 738 episodes. Yes we all love it but it can be maddening contradictory. Yes, overall Michio Kaku is right, it's not the best name for a weapon. In TOS they loked like blobs of light and they never said what thet were. "They" gave more detail as the movies and new shows came out, which is what we're stuck with. In any event, as with most of the technology, it's usually plot-driven how and when things work they way they do.


You're right, Captain Adam, in SFB the missiles (called "drones") required zero energy to arm and launch (exception: antimatter warhead drones that the Feds had access to). These came totally from the makers of SFB, not canon. SFB also used the concept common in the 70s that phasers were "warp-accelerated" and were FTL weapons. Also, in SFB, combat is FTL (low, below WF3), where in SFC they used the TNG et. al. concept that combat was almost entirely subllight and that phasers don't work in warp. While I can think of an exception or two (Voyager firing phasers as point defense "Basics, pt 1"), most of the TV and movies followed this case. Unless the plot-of-the-week required otherwise. ;)

Personally, I prefer the "sublight combat" idea of SFC/TNG as opposed to the SFB model. The SFB rules had to jump through hoops about warp combat to cover the "examples" in TOS "Balance of Terror" AND "Elaan of Troyus." I can't resist posting this - here's the description of warp combat from SFB, Basic Set:
"Movement at a speed of one hex per turn equals movement at the speed of light.
Thus, each turn represents 1/30 of a second of subjective time. However, using relativistic
variable time distortion, the time elapsed during a turn appears to the crew
inside the ship to be about a minute"

Now, really, does that make any real sense??

Offline Captain Adam

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 754
  • Gender: Male
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #136 on: January 23, 2014, 09:42:44 am »
.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 02:20:56 pm by Captain Adam »
Odo :    
"Being accused of a crime is not a disgrace, Chief. Some of the great figures of history have shared the honour with you."
to O'Brien
DS9 : Tribunal

Offline knightstorm

  • His Imperial Highness, Norton II, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2104
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #137 on: January 23, 2014, 10:01:20 am »
The magazine is not canon, but it was using information from the producers of the show, so its a bit more authoritative than some random website.  Theoretically, phasers should not be capable of being fired forward by a ship moving at warp, yet we've seen that many times in canon also.  I can only assume that the traveling ship is somehow carrying the phaser or torpedo into warp with it.

As far as rules are conerned, I tend to look at the media for what its intended to be rather than arguing that one is better than the other.  Canon is intended for viewing.  It is superior for viewing.  SFB is intended for gameplay, Making the gameplay enjoyable trumps reality, or fidelity to canon, and we should leave it at that.

Offline TAnimaL

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 771
  • Gender: Male
    • Combat Logs from the Cold Depths of Space
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #138 on: January 23, 2014, 10:25:10 am »
LOL, I'm sure you're right Captain Adam...

Since you've got no reference/link, and if we were reading the same ST mags in the 90s Knightstorm, I willing to bet you're mis-remebering. The TNG manual makes it a point that photorps can't make the jump to warp on their own, but they are indeed the weapon to use while at warp, as opposed to phasers, which are "sublight" (technically, the beam moves at c, so neither "sub" or "FTL").

True, gameplay should trump media viewing for playing a game; I think we all just wish a "game" can do what we "see" in the media.

Thanks for the tip Captain Adam; I had forgotten about the Daystrom Institute site. I'm lovin' it!

Offline Corbomite

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2939
Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #139 on: January 23, 2014, 11:10:34 am »
I think we all just wish a "game" can do what we "see" in the media.


Loosely and inconsistantly follow an ever changing source that allows me to make things up as I go to satisfy the needs of the situation in order to achieve victory every time I play? That sounds great for me, but the rest of you are going to hate the game pretty fast.


It is true that they show both photons and phasers firing a warp speeds (right from the very first production episode of TOS where they destroy the cube in The Corbomite Maneuver at warp three) and that they have been inconsistant about it as they made it up and as plots required clever fixes to problems to move along. I'll just use their own technobabble approach and say that the phasing part in "phaser" that blends plasma into a laser also phases the beam partly into a sub-space domain that allows it to seem to go FTL when at warp due to the relativistic speed differential. As for photons; since they have a hard candy coating encasing all that sweet goodness, it isn't hard to assume that they fit them with small warp boosters that allow them to maintain a high warp speed (approaching the assigned limit of warp ten set in TNG before achieving trans-warp).