Topic: So anyone still play?  (Read 21388 times)

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Offline TAnimaL

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #240 on: April 28, 2014, 05:00:22 am »
 ::)   oh, riiigghhhttt... 'cause B5 is the only show that ever had to deal with somethign happening to an actress in real life,

Ever heard of a show called "I Love Lucy"?

Offline Nemesis

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #241 on: April 28, 2014, 07:00:14 am »
You do realize that was just one example.  B5 is full of continuity where things in earlier episodes link to later ones.  Earlier shows lacked that to a great degree.
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #242 on: April 28, 2014, 09:48:37 am »
That's because B5 was conceived as a concept show. JMS had a hard time selling the idea for years because no one at a network would believe that people would watch a show that was not episodic in nature, especially a sci-fi show. It was also planned as a finite story that had a definite conclusion, so the networks also couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that JMS only needed five years to finish the whole series. Who starts a TV show and knows its life span? If it doesn't catch on it is gone before anyone knew it was there and if it gets popular you try to keep it on the air as long as you can. Only that surge of new networks popping up in the early '90's got that show its chance to see the light of day, and even then JMS couldn't get the measly five years he needed until TNT stepped in to save the last season.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #243 on: April 28, 2014, 09:54:35 am »
That's because B5 was conceived as a concept show. JMS had a hard time selling the idea for years because no one at a network would believe that people would watch a show that was not episodic in nature, especially a sci-fi show. It was also planned as a finite story that had a definite conclusion, so the networks also couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that JMS only needed five years to finish the whole series. Who starts a TV show and knows its life span? If it doesn't catch on it is gone before anyone knew it was there and if it gets popular you try to keep it on the air as long as you can. Only that surge of new networks popping up in the early '90's got that show its chance to see the light of day, and even then JMS couldn't get the measly five years he needed until TNT stepped in to save the last season.

I've never bought that idea.  Season one just doesn't fit into the series arc that well.  One thing I so have to give JMS credit for though, is that he had the foresight to film the series in wide screen.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #244 on: April 28, 2014, 10:04:05 am »
Yes it does. The only big anomaly is Sinclair leaving because the netork wanted a bigger name in the lead, hence Bruce Boxleitner and the command change, which they handled rather deftly I think. The minute details were not all set in stone, it is a TV show after all and JMS was writing the scripts as they went, but the main story and all the broad strokes were already in place. Garibaldi's decent back into alchoholism was made more pronounced because Jerry Doyle told JMS that if they were going to do it then they should do it properly. Alchoholism is a real problem and Doyle didn't want it to become a throw away reason for his character's problems.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #245 on: April 28, 2014, 11:19:58 am »
Link

Quote
By the time O'Hare passed away in September 2012, he hadn't had a role in over a decade, nor had he been seen out in public for years, fueling speculation he was gravely ill for the last several years of his life. Only upon O'Hare's death (and at his request) did close friend and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski confirm that he had, in fact, been battling an increasing debilitating case of schizophrenia. Straczynski also confirmed that O'Hare's difficulty with the illness was the primary reason he was forced to leave Babylon 5 at the end of the first season, a decision which was mutual and very amicable. JMS even went so far as to delay the filming of the series several months to try and accommodate his condition, but O'Hare declined, citing that the delay would adversely affect the rest of the cast & crew, and insisted that they should continue without him. O'Hare would eventually return for a brief cameo in the second season, as well as a guest role in the third season that concluded his character's story in the series.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #246 on: April 28, 2014, 11:26:01 am »
That's because B5 was conceived as a concept show. JMS had a hard time selling the idea for years because no one at a network would believe that people would watch a show that was not episodic in nature, especially a sci-fi show. It was also planned as a finite story that had a definite conclusion, so the networks also couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that JMS only needed five years to finish the whole series. Who starts a TV show and knows its life span? If it doesn't catch on it is gone before anyone knew it was there and if it gets popular you try to keep it on the air as long as you can. Only that surge of new networks popping up in the early '90's got that show its chance to see the light of day, and even then JMS couldn't get the measly five years he needed until TNT stepped in to save the last season.

Which doesn't conflict with what I said. 

JMS had a hard time selling it because it was not "the way things are done".  Until it is of course. 

Just because the studio knows the planned life doesn't mean the audience needs to be told.  Things can also be stretched or compressed or sequels/spinoffs planned in if the show is sufficiently (or insufficiently) successful.  Consider Stargate SG1 from the beginning it was the threat of Apophis that the fought, until it wasn't but a new threat was created to continue the series.  Then another etc.  I myself thought of two different spin off concepts they could have used when SG1 ended.  No reason Babylon 5 couldn't have done the same (in fact they tried but poorly). 
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #247 on: April 28, 2014, 11:31:31 am »
Yes it does. The only big anomaly is Sinclair leaving because the netork wanted a bigger name in the lead, hence Bruce Boxleitner and the command change, which they handled rather deftly I think. The minute details were not all set in stone, it is a TV show after all and JMS was writing the scripts as they went, but the main story and all the broad strokes were already in place. Garibaldi's decent back into alchoholism was made more pronounced because Jerry Doyle told JMS that if they were going to do it then they should do it properly. Alchoholism is a real problem and Doyle didn't want it to become a throw away reason for his character's problems.

No.  The first season was definitely more episodic in nature.  There were a few episodes which indicated he intended to have a few smaller storylines, but nothing like the sweeping four year arc which characterized the series.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #248 on: April 28, 2014, 11:42:32 am »
You do realize that was just one example.  B5 is full of continuity where things in earlier episodes link to later ones.  Earlier shows lacked that to a great degree.

Soap operas did it all the time.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #249 on: April 28, 2014, 11:52:13 am »
Lets assume that your argument that he planned fewer story lines is correct.  That does not preclude a 4 year arc.   The initial concept could easily have included the idea that he would be expanding on it as he went.

If the claims are accurate however wouldn't you expect the first season to be more episodic as the arcs had yet to begin converging?  It would show the arcs and stage by stage they would coalesce.  New arcs could be inspired and added in by the way in which things were implemented.  Sinclairs fiancée could easily have been intended for the role played by Sheridans wife, with the departure of Sinclair the wife was no longer usable for that role so Sheridans was cast for it. 

Babylon Squared in the first season set the stage for the 3rd season theft of Babylon 4 and the explanations as to how and why the first 3 Babylon stations were destroyed by the Shadows or their agents. 

The Soul Hunter previews the rise in significance of Delenn.  Infection the first indicator of the prior Shadow war.  Mind war the future evolution of man and the existence of the First Ones. Sinclairs kidnapping to find out what happened on the line is part of his future importance. 

Those are just major arcs in the first ten episodes.  Minor arcs exist and help form background. 

You do realize that was just one example.  B5 is full of continuity where things in earlier episodes link to later ones.  Earlier shows lacked that to a great degree.


Soap operas did it all the time.

Which I referenced. 

Different eras.  in the TOS era what TV show had a consistent on going story line?  Soap operas.  By TNG others had been added (BSG for example).  By Enterprise even more like Stargate and Babylon 5, Firefly.
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I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #250 on: April 28, 2014, 11:56:21 am »
Link

Quote
By the time O'Hare passed away in September 2012, he hadn't had a role in over a decade, nor had he been seen out in public for years, fueling speculation he was gravely ill for the last several years of his life. Only upon O'Hare's death (and at his request) did close friend and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski confirm that he had, in fact, been battling an increasing debilitating case of schizophrenia. Straczynski also confirmed that O'Hare's difficulty with the illness was the primary reason he was forced to leave Babylon 5 at the end of the first season, a decision which was mutual and very amicable. JMS even went so far as to delay the filming of the series several months to try and accommodate his condition, but O'Hare declined, citing that the delay would adversely affect the rest of the cast & crew, and insisted that they should continue without him. O'Hare would eventually return for a brief cameo in the second season, as well as a guest role in the third season that concluded his character's story in the series.




Thank you for this. I hadn't heard about that at all. My info was from the DVD commentary by JMS on the subject, which in light of what it says here makes sense that he would fib at that time.




That's because B5 was conceived as a concept show. JMS had a hard time selling the idea for years because no one at a network would believe that people would watch a show that was not episodic in nature, especially a sci-fi show. It was also planned as a finite story that had a definite conclusion, so the networks also couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that JMS only needed five years to finish the whole series. Who starts a TV show and knows its life span? If it doesn't catch on it is gone before anyone knew it was there and if it gets popular you try to keep it on the air as long as you can. Only that surge of new networks popping up in the early '90's got that show its chance to see the light of day, and even then JMS couldn't get the measly five years he needed until TNT stepped in to save the last season.


Which doesn't conflict with what I said. 

JMS had a hard time selling it because it was not "the way things are done".  Until it is of course. 

Just because the studio knows the planned life doesn't mean the audience needs to be told.  Things can also be stretched or compressed or sequels/spinoffs planned in if the show is sufficiently (or insufficiently) successful.  Consider Stargate SG1 from the beginning it was the threat of Apophis that the fought, until it wasn't but a new threat was created to continue the series.  Then another etc.  I myself thought of two different spin off concepts they could have used when SG1 ended.  No reason Babylon 5 couldn't have done the same (in fact they tried but poorly).



I liked Excaliber and wish it had had more time to grow. The Ranger movie pilot was pretty weak though. Both suffered from a lack of budget and the strange place the future of TV was in at that point.

I never got into SG. The movie was OK, but the series never grabbed my attention.





Yes it does. The only big anomaly is Sinclair leaving because the netork wanted a bigger name in the lead, hence Bruce Boxleitner and the command change, which they handled rather deftly I think. The minute details were not all set in stone, it is a TV show after all and JMS was writing the scripts as they went, but the main story and all the broad strokes were already in place. Garibaldi's decent back into alchoholism was made more pronounced because Jerry Doyle told JMS that if they were going to do it then they should do it properly. Alchoholism is a real problem and Doyle didn't want it to become a throw away reason for his character's problems.


No.  The first season was definitely more episodic in nature.  There were a few episodes which indicated he intended to have a few smaller storylines, but nothing like the sweeping four year arc which characterized the series.



The first season would be more episodic in nature by default if you have many story lines to start and the payoffs are years away. Many of those first season stories are introductions the universe itself, so don't have a major plot role other than to make you not go "WTF?" later on. JMS set up the whole thing with the Vorlons (why they couldn't show themselves) in the pilot movie and didn't pay that one off until season 3(?).

Offline knightstorm

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #251 on: April 28, 2014, 12:09:30 pm »

I liked Excaliber and wish it had had more time to grow. The Ranger movie pilot was pretty weak though. Both suffered from a lack of budget and the strange place the future of TV was in at that point.



Both were pretty much DOA.  TNT made the decision to cancel Excaliber before the first episode aired, and looking at the series on DVD, some of the special effects shots actually appear to be unfinished.  As for Legend of the Rangers, Sci-fi had no intention of picking it up.  They aired the movie at the same time as the AFC championship to make sure that it wouldn't get the ratings to justify developing the series.  Also, a B5 spin-shouldn't need a huge budget.  The original series had a shoe string budget.  The reason they used CGI before everyone else was because they didn't have the budget to use physical models, and considering the capabilities of the computers then, the effects of B5 can easily be surpassed on even the most limited effects budgets.  The Omega class destroyer had a 250K poly count.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 12:24:20 pm by knightstorm »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #252 on: April 28, 2014, 12:25:47 pm »

I liked Excaliber and wish it had had more time to grow. The Ranger movie pilot was pretty weak though. Both suffered from a lack of budget and the strange place the future of TV was in at that point.



Both were pretty much DOA.  TNT made the decision to cancel Excaliber before the first episode aired, and looking at the series on DVD, some of the special effects shots actually appear to be unfinished.  As for Legend of the Rangers, Sci-fi had no intention of picking it up.  They aired the movie at the same time as the AFC championship to make sure that it wouldn't get the ratings to justify developing the series.


Yeah, Excaliber got the rug pulled out from under it. You'd think TNT would have realized the budget necessary to make a show like that after doing it for a year and making several movies about the show. The show had a good rhythm and a ticking clock that kept things moving and on focus, plus I liked the actors and characters they played.

Legend of the Rangers was just bad. On all counts. I don't think that even the people that made it wanted it to be picked up.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #253 on: April 28, 2014, 12:46:23 pm »
JMS set up the whole thing with the Vorlons (why they couldn't show themselves) in the pilot movie and didn't pay that one off until season 3(?).

Season 2, Episode 22: The Fall of Night
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #254 on: April 28, 2014, 12:55:30 pm »

Yeah, Excaliber got the rug pulled out from under it. You'd think TNT would have realized the budget necessary to make a show like that after doing it for a year and making several movies about the show.

From what I've read, the decision had nothing to do with budget.  TNT did a study of the viewer demographics, and decided that B5 hadn't been a good fit for the station, and that producing a B5 spinoff was not desirable.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: So anyone still play?
« Reply #255 on: April 28, 2014, 04:59:51 pm »
That doesn't sound right. How do you get through a year of a show and, what, four movies, plus thirteen episodes into a new spinoff series and not know who your audience is? It really doesn't matter, the coda they did in 2007 was enough for me.