Topic: Strategic game?  (Read 3292 times)

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Strategic game?
« on: November 21, 2013, 11:16:03 am »
What are you looking to do?  Persistent universe like an MMO or campaign that run for a few weeks or months like old dyna?

This is the first question.  I prefer the ladder as the former involves grind and bullsh*t.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline [UFP]Exeter

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Re: Strategic game?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 11:35:10 am »
Maybe a little of both, but I am no fan of the persistent universe.  Consider a massive long term campaign that players may log in to.  he campaign is over when one "faction" has conquered the galaxy.  but also to allow players to get on and play a short term, consistent universe if they like, but this resets when they log off, and is not saved.  but the next time is is reset and is the same.    Thought I am thinking of only the campaign on the server, as it could get massive.

Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Strategic game?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 04:43:37 pm »
I wanted to jot down what I was thinking for the Strategic aspect of the game and this seems to be the perfect place for it.  Anytime I mention "Race Leader" it should be read as Race Leader in Multiplayer or Player in Single Player.

First:  The Strategic aspect of the game should in no way be the primary focus of SFC4.  The primary focus should be the Tactical, Ship-to-Ship combat.  But in the Strategic layer of the game is what makes the Tactical game mean something.  A battle over empty space with nothing around is not a battle that has to be won or lost.  If you happen to destroy an enemy ship, great, you've taken out a ship, but you haven't done anything to boost your empire's situation (or damage your opponents)  If you let yourself get destroyed over said empty space, well that's what would get a Captain sacked. (should he have survived the battle)  On the other hand, a battle near or in a planetary system, it does matter whether or not the battle is won or lost, the outcome either opens the system for invasion, or goes towards securing it.  In these cases, a Captain sacrificing their ship in order to win the battle, may very well get the Captain a Medal, even if the next ship received is a "downgrade" over the last one.

The strategic aspect of the game provides a way to quantify and represent these situations, but it should never take up too much of a player's time, unless that player WANTS to do it.

Shiplist:  Since everything SFB related is off-limits anyways, it provides us, as the community, the ability to create our own shiplists to fill the various roles that would need to be filled in the Tactical (and strategic) aspect of the game.  We can take the base hulls that we have, and fill them out.  (obviously we're going to be relying on modeling talent for races that don't already have a plethora of ships available, such as the Romulans, Gorn, Tholians, etc.)  Then after we design the ships, we have to decide where they would fall in the production queue, a thoroughbred cruiser might be a nice ship to build during peace-time, but in a wartime setting all the miscellaneous (read non-combat) equipment is an unnecessary expenditure of time and capital.    Meanwhile a pure combat vessel, would find itself out of place in scientific and exploration missions that would dominate it's peacetime duties and be likewise a waste of time and capital.

Resources: Any strategic game is about the acquisition of resources, and the spending of said resources.  The spending and acquisition of the resources should be as automated as possible, the only input the player(s) should have is discovering new resources, protecting resource sources, protecting the convoys carrying the resources from the sources to the refining centers, and then the priority of using the resources to produce stuff.  The Protecting aspect is something that every Captain has a responsibility of.  Escorting convoys and protecting the mining and manufacturing facilities is a job for the Captains.  At the same time locating new resources is also a job for the Captains.  The Race Leaders are the only ones that should have the ability to spend the resources on building ships/bases/colonies.

Production:  I have had a slight change of thought on how the Production abilities should work.  Initially I was thinking that No one should have any control over the production queues, it should be completely automated and the Race Leaders only have the ability to change what priority the shipyards take, whether its a focus on wartime designs or a focus on peacetime designs.  I still think that automation is the best method, but instead of it being completely automated a small percentage of construction (say 10%) can be selected by the Race Leader themselves.  This gives the empires some small control over their production abilities, and allows them to say, yes I want to focus on Wartime constructions, but I still want to build a few thoroughbred cruisers so that my fleet is not completely useless in the exploration aspect, or as a reward for some people who may just prefer the non-war designs.  Or you can flip it around and stay on the Peacetime building aspect, but still build a few war designs so that you're not completely off-guard when a war breaks out, but still get the benefits of building a peacetime fleet.

"Peace" designs vs. War Designs:
In general a War Design is geared entirely for war, it has little or no secondary systems to "absorb" hits without losing combat effectiveness, every internal hit hits something vital, these ship are generally more fragile because every hit hurts in combat.  War Designs sensors are limited in range and power and geared more towards targeting, tracking, and ECM/ECCM, there may be some ability to detect and track hidden objects, but only at close ranges.  War designs also have less availability of auxiliary power because more of the power is needed to power all the power-hungry combat systems.

"Peace" designs by contrast, are geared for more than just combat.  They have a number of secondary systems that assist them in their science and exploration missions, systems that are pretty much just taking up space in combat situations, giving the Peace time designs the ability to absorb damage because these non-combat systems can be hit before "vital" combat systems.  "Peace" designs have equipment that is deemed non-essential on War-designs that boost their sensor performance, allowing them to "see" farther, see more details, and detect hidden objects at much greater range, although they may have more trouble defeating enemy ECM.

Just because a race, such as the Klingons, don't really believe in peace, that doesn't mean that they are deficient in the "Peace" Design ships, it just means that there may be a few more combat systems on their "Peace-time" designs than say the Federation.  At the same time, the Federation's Wartime designs may not be as lean and mean as the Klingon's Wartime designs.  But the Klingons will still have the sensor boosting systems on their peace designs, they just may not be as plentiful as those on a Federation design.

Persistent Universe:  I don't think a Persistent universe is a good idea.  The universe needs to change based on the actions of the Captains.  But there will come a point where one side will dominate the universe (either in actuality, or by inevitability), and then needs to be "reset".  This reset allows for the leveling of the playing field, everyone starts back at the base level.  This prevents one side or individual player from getting too powerful (equipment, officers) that is usually the downfall of most MMOs, and allows for new blood to come in and not feel like they are outmatched and will never be able to defeat the more experienced players unless by sheer force of luck.

Maps:  One of the unique aspects of the D2 system was the ability for the game host to set up a different strategic map so that the players "aren't playing the same game over and over again."  But the server (or player's computer in single player games) should store the tactical maps for future use so that a battle in the same system is the same layout.  If someone build a defense platform in the system, it should be in the same position every time that system is loaded, until it's moved or destroyed.

Intelligence:  Partially outside of the tactical game, and partially inside the game.  Intelligence reports come in daily, and can be condensed into a simple packet that will probably take up most of the Race Leaders time in the Strategic Aspect.  Ways to gather intelligence are through spies (completely uncontrolled by the players)  Listening posts (uncontrolled as well, except for missions where the Listening post may be interdicted and require a Captain to go query the post manually, which opens the post to discovery and destruction if the Captain querying the post isn't careful to destroy or drive off the interdicting force before the query)  And general surveillance sweeps by Captains.  Peacetime and scout ships will provide better surveillance reports than wartime designs.  These Intelligence reports can then be used to direct daily missions that the Captains can then carry out.  I kind of envision a consolidated list, that the Race Leader can look at, and have a dropdown box that provides options like: Assign Mission: High Priority (which would place the mission in the daily report for the Captains to accept, or it could be assigned to a specific Captain if the leader so chooses)  Assign Mission: Medium Priority (again places it in the mission queue, but doesn't provide as much of an extra reward for completing it as a High Priority mission would)  Assign Mission: Low Priority (Puts it in the queue but places the lowest amount of extra reward for completing it)  Assign Mission: No Priority (basically tells your Captains that you want the mission done, but you're not going to assign any extra rewards to it)  Ignore. (doesn't assign a mission for it at all)  If there's no missions available in the queue for the Captains, there's always the basic patrol options, or the Captains can take initiative on their own and perform basic (defensive) missions for just the standard rewards.

Missions: for the Captains to accept any offered missions, they have to be in range of the mission to be able to complete it that day, otherwise the mission will either not display or state that you are too far away to accept the mission.  Sometimes the missions offered may say "Only Ship in the Quadrant".  Telling you that if you don't perform the mission, no one will, because no one else is capable of accepting the mission, either because you are the only ship in range, or you are the only ship capable of performing the mission in range.  (an example of that may be a Listening Post Query that requires a Cruiser, and you are the only Cruiser in range, even though there may be other players in range, just none that are piloting a Cruiser or better)  There shouldn't be any in game penalty for not completing missions, although the Race Leader may decide that someone else needs to be assigned to your sector because you aren't performing the missions that's expected of you, and as a consequence you may be passed over for specific assignments.
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

Offline [UFP]Exeter

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Re: Strategic game?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 05:13:22 pm »
There i quire a bit there to think about, you pus some thought into this :)

The ideas for ship customization can be done but they requires models.  And the various maps require graphics.  Neither is my forte, so unless somebody comes forth I will have to learn them later.  My plans is to have the ship classes defined and the models.  Then customization may define what the ship is equipped with. 

I will ponder this post and see what others say.

Offline Javora

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Re: Strategic game?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2013, 11:59:50 pm »
I wanted to jot down what I was thinking for the Strategic aspect of the game and this seems to be the perfect place for it.  Anytime I mention "Race Leader" it should be read as Race Leader in Multiplayer or Player in Single Player.

First:  The Strategic aspect of the game should in no way be the primary focus of SFC4.  The primary focus should be the Tactical, Ship-to-Ship combat.  But in the Strategic layer of the game is what makes the Tactical game mean something.  A battle over empty space with nothing around is not a battle that has to be won or lost.

Dead on with the primary aspect of SFC.  Although I'm not sure SFC game needs a "Battlefield 2" (or 4) type commander running the show.  I would let the individual captains build up points to make changes to the landscape.


If you happen to destroy an enemy ship, great, you've taken out a ship, but you haven't done anything to boost your empire's situation (or damage your opponents)  If you let yourself get destroyed over said empty space, well that's what would get a Captain sacked. (should he have survived the battle)  On the other hand, a battle near or in a planetary system, it does matter whether or not the battle is won or lost, the outcome either opens the system for invasion, or goes towards securing it.  In these cases, a Captain sacrificing their ship in order to win the battle, may very well get the Captain a Medal, even if the next ship received is a "downgrade" over the last one.

The strategic aspect of the game provides a way to quantify and represent these situations, but it should never take up too much of a player's time, unless that player WANTS to do it.

I'm not sure I agree with this, if the "empty space" happens to be a shipping lane that the enemy has identified as a way that cargo ships travels between an asteroid fields or planets to a Star Base, Planet, or Ship Yard, that can cause major problems.  A player trying to figure out why we they are losing cargo ships might end up getting caught in the trap themselves.

Also losing a ship would take that playing piece off the game board so to speak.  The empire would have to use up resources to build another ship.  As a result a losing empire might be forced to build fewer or smaller ships.  But I do agree that winning or losing a battle in open space wouldn't cause a empire to "control" that space.


Shiplist:  Since everything SFB related is off-limits anyways, it provides us, as the community, the ability to create our own shiplists to fill the various roles that would need to be filled in the Tactical (and strategic) aspect of the game.  We can take the base hulls that we have, and fill them out.  (obviously we're going to be relying on modeling talent for races that don't already have a plethora of ships available, such as the Romulans, Gorn, Tholians, etc.)  Then after we design the ships, we have to decide where they would fall in the production queue, a thoroughbred cruiser might be a nice ship to build during peace-time, but in a wartime setting all the miscellaneous (read non-combat) equipment is an unnecessary expenditure of time and capital.    Meanwhile a pure combat vessel, would find itself out of place in scientific and exploration missions that would dominate it's peacetime duties and be likewise a waste of time and capital.

I guess my only question is how far are we going to deviate from SFC OP or SFC III ?


Resources: Any strategic game is about the acquisition of resources, and the spending of said resources.  The spending and acquisition of the resources should be as automated as possible, the only input the player(s) should have is discovering new resources, protecting resource sources, protecting the convoys carrying the resources from the sources to the refining centers, and then the priority of using the resources to produce stuff.  The Protecting aspect is something that every Captain has a responsibility of.  Escorting convoys and protecting the mining and manufacturing facilities is a job for the Captains.  At the same time locating new resources is also a job for the Captains.  The Race Leaders are the only ones that should have the ability to spend the resources on building ships/bases/colonies.

I agree that the game itself should handle resources beyond find/acquiring resources.  If resources are on a asteroid field then I think an empire should build a star base to protect and use those resources.  A planet should be controlled by an empire to use that planet.  This goes back to my AoC bubble that I talked about earlier.  Players would have to protect resources until a star base can be built.  This would be yet another reason for players to build star bases and spend points, to control parts of the map and handle resources.

Like I said earlier, players should have to protect not only cargo ship but the shipping lanes that these ships use.  I am concerned that players could get caught in a constant loop protecting cargo ships.  I can see a constant grind like that causing people to lose interest and quit playing.  Every cargo convoy in SFC OP had a ship or two protecting them even if they were bots.  That shouldn't change now IMHO.   


Production:  I have had a slight change of thought on how the Production abilities should work.  Initially I was thinking that No one should have any control over the production queues, it should be completely automated and the Race Leaders only have the ability to change what priority the shipyards take, whether its a focus on wartime designs or a focus on peacetime designs.  I still think that automation is the best method, but instead of it being completely automated a small percentage of construction (say 10%) can be selected by the Race Leader themselves.  This gives the empires some small control over their production abilities, and allows them to say, yes I want to focus on Wartime constructions, but I still want to build a few thoroughbred cruisers so that my fleet is not completely useless in the exploration aspect, or as a reward for some people who may just prefer the non-war designs.  Or you can flip it around and stay on the Peacetime building aspect, but still build a few war designs so that you're not completely off-guard when a war breaks out, but still get the benefits of building a peacetime fleet.

Since this is a combat game, I'm not sure piece time vs war time ships would be an issue or something we should focus on.  However since we are talking about resources now, managing the type and number of ship does become something that has to be worked out.  I'm not sure that players should have and control what ships is being built because I can see a preference towards cheese ships.


Persistent Universe:  I don't think a Persistent universe is a good idea.  The universe needs to change based on the actions of the Captains.  But there will come a point where one side will dominate the universe (either in actuality, or by inevitability), and then needs to be "reset".  This reset allows for the leveling of the playing field, everyone starts back at the base level.  This prevents one side or individual player from getting too powerful (equipment, officers) that is usually the downfall of most MMOs, and allows for new blood to come in and not feel like they are outmatched and will never be able to defeat the more experienced players unless by sheer force of luck.

I agree, I don't think this is the type of game that can support a MMO.  I think the only way that would work is if each empire has an area on the map that can't be captured.  I just don't see that working.



Maps:  One of the unique aspects of the D2 system was the ability for the game host to set up a different strategic map so that the players "aren't playing the same game over and over again."  But the server (or player's computer in single player games) should store the tactical maps for future use so that a battle in the same system is the same layout.  If someone build a defense platform in the system, it should be in the same position every time that system is loaded, until it's moved or destroyed.

If this game does in fact use star bases to capture areas on the map then the game being able to remember where everything is would be a must.  This goes for Planets, asteroids, and everything else.  But saving game info now a days isn't a big issue that it used to be.


Intelligence:  Partially outside of the tactical game, and partially inside the game.  Intelligence reports come in daily, and can be condensed into a simple packet that will probably take up most of the Race Leaders time in the Strategic Aspect.  Ways to gather intelligence are through spies (completely uncontrolled by the players)  Listening posts (uncontrolled as well, except for missions where the Listening post may be interdicted and require a Captain to go query the post manually, which opens the post to discovery and destruction if the Captain querying the post isn't careful to destroy or drive off the interdicting force before the query)  And general surveillance sweeps by Captains.  Peacetime and scout ships will provide better surveillance reports than wartime designs.  These Intelligence reports can then be used to direct daily missions that the Captains can then carry out.  I kind of envision a consolidated list, that the Race Leader can look at, and have a dropdown box that provides options like: Assign Mission: High Priority (which would place the mission in the daily report for the Captains to accept, or it could be assigned to a specific Captain if the leader so chooses)  Assign Mission: Medium Priority (again places it in the mission queue, but doesn't provide as much of an extra reward for completing it as a High Priority mission would)  Assign Mission: Low Priority (Puts it in the queue but places the lowest amount of extra reward for completing it)  Assign Mission: No Priority (basically tells your Captains that you want the mission done, but you're not going to assign any extra rewards to it)  Ignore. (doesn't assign a mission for it at all)  If there's no missions available in the queue for the Captains, there's always the basic patrol options, or the Captains can take initiative on their own and perform basic (defensive) missions for just the standard rewards.

Missions: for the Captains to accept any offered missions, they have to be in range of the mission to be able to complete it that day, otherwise the mission will either not display or state that you are too far away to accept the mission.  Sometimes the missions offered may say "Only Ship in the Quadrant".  Telling you that if you don't perform the mission, no one will, because no one else is capable of accepting the mission, either because you are the only ship in range, or you are the only ship capable of performing the mission in range.  (an example of that may be a Listening Post Query that requires a Cruiser, and you are the only Cruiser in range, even though there may be other players in range, just none that are piloting a Cruiser or better)  There shouldn't be any in game penalty for not completing missions, although the Race Leader may decide that someone else needs to be assigned to your sector because you aren't performing the missions that's expected of you, and as a consequence you may be passed over for specific assignments.

What about have Listening Posts (LP) that can be deployed in a sector by ships of a certain size.  These LP's could only be found by opposing players that are actively searching a sector.  Any player could watch what is being recorded by a LP in real time by clicking on the icon on that part of the map.  This could allow a empire keep an eye on resources that have been found be not protected/used by a star base yet.  These LP's could be bought like any other supply at a star base or planet and maybe even at a ship yard.  Think of LP's like the probes from the old Starcraft game.  This could allow for shared information without the need for a commander.

On that note, one thing that always bothered me about SFC games, the ships are built at a ship yard but only bought at planets or star bases.  I think if players want new ships they should have to travel to a ship yard to buy one.  This IMHO would be a good way to slow down the game speed a little and prevent a star base built deep inside an enemy empire from being used as a instant ship dealer with huge amounts of ships to choose from like SFC.  If players want a ship yard closer to the action, then let the players build them like star bases.

One thing I always thought would be neat would be for other players or bots for that matter to send out a distress call and have ships respond in real time.  For example if a enemy player attacks a convoy, the convoy would send out a distress call and players friendly to the convoy could respond and enter that mission in progress to defend.  This distress call could sent out things like number of enemy ships as well as general ship description (light cruiser, battleship, etc.).

All in all, good post Q.

Offline [UFP]Exeter

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Re: Strategic game?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2013, 08:09:51 am »
Quote
One thing I always thought would be neat would be for other players or bots for that matter to send out a distress call and have ships respond in real time.  For example if a enemy player attacks a convoy, the convoy would send out a distress call and players friendly to the convoy could respond and enter that mission in progress to defend.  This distress call could sent out things like number of enemy ships as well as general ship description (light cruiser, battleship, etc.).

I really like this idea.

Starbase by a location for resources seems like an overkill.  Add a processing facility, lightly armed but nowhere near as  strong as a starbase.

Allow a player to allocate a portion of resources to build "escorts" for transports.  These would be smaller vessels These will be controlled by the game.  Combined with the automated distress call.