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#### Nemesis

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##### How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« on: March 01, 2014, 12:31:10 pm »

Quote
Microsoft is currently experimenting with a free version of Windows 8.1 that could boost the number of people using the operating system. Sources familiar with Microsoft’s plans tell The Verge that the company is building "Windows 8.1 with Bing," a version that will bundle key Microsoft apps and services. While early versions of the software have leaked online, we understand that Windows 8.1 with Bing is an experimental project that aims to bring a low-cost version of Windows to consumers. ZDNet first reported some Windows 8.1 with Bing details earlier this week.

Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2014, 02:20:22 pm »
Win Phone 8 for free.  Nokia (remember Microsoft is in the process of buying them) releasing Android phones.  Barnes and Noble cancel their Win 8 Metro app.  Firefox for Metro canceled.  Almost forgot to add this, apparently MS is adding the ability to run Android apps to WinPhone 8.

Sounds like a flop to me.

Times like this I miss Toasty to tell me how none of this is bad for Microsoft and Windows.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Brush Wolf

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2014, 02:39:58 pm »
At least PC wise W8 isn't a bad OS but the touch centric "features" are the problem. They should have had a optional mouse centric UI instead of the clunkyness of the current one.
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#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2014, 03:01:55 pm »
The free Windows 8 (not WinPhone 8 ) with Bing seems aimed at the Google ChromeBook like the one I'm posting from now.  Of course I'm using KDE rather than the Chrome OE and browsing with Firefox.

The two companies are both apparently fighting against dual boot Win8 and Chrome OS on tablets and I guess netbooks/laptops.  Microsoft has to be careful on that score with prior rulings concerning BeOS in that situation.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2014, 12:40:48 pm »
Now they are trying to bribe you to leave XP.

Quote
In an attempt to lure people off its 13-year-old Windows XP operating system, Microsoft will pay $100 to XP users who upgrade to a new Windows 8 PC. The promotion, run via the Microsoft Store website, is open to users who ditch their Windows XP systems and buy new machines. The money-off offer applies to PCs costing$699 or more that are bought from Redmond's online shop. The deal – which throws in 90 days of tech support and a download of software to migrate files all for free – will run through 15 June, nine weeks after official support for Windows XP is set to expire on April 8.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2014, 01:07:42 pm »
I'm not just being contrary here, but I don't get all the hate for Win8, and yes, I've been sitting at one for almost a year now. My day-to-day work (& play) is getting a computer to run multiple applications and processes so that I can do things with it and 8 works just fine. I think "flop" is a word reserved for things like Vista. I've seen plenty of OS come and go in the past 35 years, and there's always pros and cons to change but I'm much happier now than I was paying (again and again) for "big cats" or loading a TRS80 with a cassette.

#### Corbomite

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2014, 01:36:23 pm »
I just think MS is finally getting it through its thick skull that businesses aren't willing to take the time to upgrade their entire OS, network and peripherals, possibly slowing down or stopping work for days, only to have to retrain everyone how to operate their devices and replacement applications, assuming they work reliably at all and have all the functions and useability that the old apps had and if not, figuring a way around those problems in order to continue doing business, unless they have to. Not to mention the cost of new hardware and other considerations. Not every business needs the most up to date everything to operate and computers are still just a tool they use to do business, not the business itself.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2014, 01:44:54 pm »
ME, Vista and now 8 all flops.

Each one made changes that the public didn't want and flopped.  Microsofts various "acrobatics" trying to get uptake on it shows it to be a flop.  When Microsoft has to start finding "creative" ways to get people to upgrade it is a flop.

You can't make an efficient interface and have it span from 3" phone screens to monster desktop screens.  It won't be efficient in all those size formats.  Programs optimized for one won't be effective on the other formats.  Trying to means you will have a dog of an OS on at least some if not all of the sizes.

I just think MS is finally getting it through its thick skull that businesses aren't willing to take the time to upgrade their entire OS, network and peripherals, possibly slowing down or stopping work for days, only to have to retrain everyone how to operate their devices and replacement applications, assuming they work reliably at all and have all the functions and useability that the old apps had and if not figuring a way around those problems in order to continue doing business, unless they have to. Not to mention the cost of new hardware and other considerations. Not every business needs the most up to date everything to operate and computers are still just a tool they use to do business, not the business itself.

Training and hardware upgrades for no performance improvement.

Then there are people like my mother who is only barely comfortable now with Win 7 and telling her that if she buys a new laptop everything is changed and nothing works like she knows is rather a deal breaker.  Especially so when I the one she relies on for computer help doesn't use Win 8 at all can't really help her.

Win 8 the answer in search of a question.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Brush Wolf

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 03:40:16 pm »
ME, Vista and now 8 all flops.

Each one made changes that the public didn't want and flopped.  Microsofts various "acrobatics" trying to get uptake on it shows it to be a flop.  When Microsoft has to start finding "creative" ways to get people to upgrade it is a flop.

You can't make an efficient interface and have it span from 3" phone screens to monster desktop screens.  It won't be efficient in all those size formats.  Programs optimized for one won't be effective on the other formats.  Trying to means you will have a dog of an OS on at least some if not all of the sizes.

I just think MS is finally getting it through its thick skull that businesses aren't willing to take the time to upgrade their entire OS, network and peripherals, possibly slowing down or stopping work for days, only to have to retrain everyone how to operate their devices and replacement applications, assuming they work reliably at all and have all the functions and useability that the old apps had and if not figuring a way around those problems in order to continue doing business, unless they have to. Not to mention the cost of new hardware and other considerations. Not every business needs the most up to date everything to operate and computers are still just a tool they use to do business, not the business itself.

Training and hardware upgrades for no performance improvement.

Then there are people like my mother who is only barely comfortable now with Win 7 and telling her that if she buys a new laptop everything is changed and nothing works like she knows is rather a deal breaker.  Especially so when I the one she relies on for computer help doesn't use Win 8 at all can't really help her.

Win 8 the answer in search of a question.

It isn't so much that W8 has flopped but more a case of people and businesses not buying new computers. Outside of Graphics, AV professionals, and the gaming community older computers which mean older OS's do everything the average person or business needs out of a computer just fine, there is no need for an computer or OS upgrade for them.
I am alright, it is the world that is wrong.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 03:53:22 pm »
Do you remember the days when people lined up to buy new versions of Windows for their old computers?

Consider also Vista.  Sales dropped while VIsta was the current Windows only to rise again when MS allowed "downgrade rights" to XP.  Then with Win7 they went up again.  With Win8 just like with Vista they dropped once more.

Microsoft as a company is geared to growth.  Growth of revenues and of profits.   Mature markets don't have that growth.  They also tend to lower profit margins.  All markets mature and often the "new companies" that grew up in that market fail when they mature and old companies that were forced into the background take back the preeminence they once had.   MS is one of those "new companies" in a market reaching maturity.  Unfortunately for them it is also splitting at the same time and in the split others (including the "new company" Google) are grabbing large parts of that market.  Will MS be a survivor adapting to the stable lower margin market or will they not adapt and fall by the way side?

Only the future will tell.  But Win 8 is still a flop or MS would not be trying all these "acrobatics" to make it succeed.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Corbomite

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 05:44:47 pm »
I always like to use the railroad analogy when describing the OS problem:

It is the same with computers. Competing OS's and platforms only stunt business growth and innovation by missing the forest for the trees: Applications are where the money is, not OS's. Apple has pretty much proved this time and again and in this particular instance having a single well operating OS that can be upgraded over time until the point new technologies completely surpass it is the way to go. One gauge of track and standardized cars and information can travel more efficiently and applications, old and new, will run as well as they should.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2014, 08:21:43 pm »
Just like I compare Open Source software with Pioneer barn raisings.

From an old posting of mine:

Quote
One comparison I have used for explaining the philosophy behind free software is the pioneers (and such groups as the Amish today) doing barn raisings.  The people doing the barn raising's for free were not just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they knew that down the road at some point it would be their turn for the community to get together and help them out.  Those who could but wouldn't help others found others wouldn't help them.

Free software people are the same as those pioneers in community working.  Each of those on a project want what the project offers and each for the efforts they put out get to have the results of the efforts of all the others.  Few of those contributing could have created the whole thing and not as quickly (or in most cases as well) but together they accomplish it and do so faster and usually better.  Those who don't contribute code can still do other things, bug reports, manual/help file writing, promoting its wider use and defending it from attacks like these.

For those who call this communist (Microsoft) or unAmerican (Microsoft again) I ask were the pioneers communists or unAmerican with their barn raisings?  If not then what is the difference that makes the free software community bad?  I have yet to get a response that made any sense.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2014, 09:38:13 am »
I only think it right to share the link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias since I doubt there'll ever be a consensus on this topic, since it's also getting clouded with ad hominems and mudslinging.

I agree with Brush Wolf; as one of those AV professionals he mentions, I need an up-to-date machine, and have worked on those types of computers since 1992. So far the Win8.1 box I'm on has performed flawlessly and I like it better than the newest Macs I've been on (the last OS I have on a Mac is either Tiger or Snow Leopard), and while I like some opensource programs, GIMP can't hold a candle to Photoshop and the rest of CC. I'd have to disagree with Corbomite a little, vis a vis Apple - it's not that they've really been pushing applications (See Apple's complete abandonment of Final Cut Pro). As I've had to argue with Mac-heads for decades now, my go-to phrase is, "Apple is a computer company that wants to sell computers, MS is software company that." AS far as Apple's "single well operating system," they've undergone 12 OS changes, 3 of them massive on a scale that would get MS ridiculed to death.

By many metrics Win8 is more successful than 7, but the market has changed significantly due to the influx of tablets and the rise of Android. I'm not trying to defend Win8 to death; IMHO  it's good and stable, but if you doon't like, fine.

However, it's not going anywhere
At least until Win9 comes out...

#### Corbomite

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2014, 10:20:20 am »
I just feel that the OS wars are pointless and a waste of resources. Even Apple and MS have partially seen this and allowed some of their products to be able to cross over to one another for convenience. I think that the OS should be sort of like the internet; a public trust type thing overseen by some think-tank somewhere with no profit motive involved. Then you might get a universal OS that everyone can use to do what we like to do faster and better. What that OS is, however, people may never agree on. Just by the available evidence though, it seems that a good, well written OS can effectively last up to ten years or more at a time, yet we have a new one thrust upon us every two to three years for no apparent gain.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2014, 11:16:24 am »
The final judge on Win8 being a flop is whether it is dominant version of Windows when its successor comes out or not.  So about a year from now Win8 can receive its final judgment.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2014, 02:21:07 pm »
The final judge on Win8 being a flop is whether it is dominant version of Windows when its successor comes out or not.  So about a year from now Win8 can receive its final judgment.

It's already decided.  MS is pulling the plug on Win 8(up).  They fired 2 of their highest level officers and announced the release of a new OS next year.  Quite simply, too many people can't do on a Win 8 machine what they did on their Win <8 machines.  When mine died (nothing to do with the OS) I decided it wasn't worth fixing.  I need a new computer, but I'm going to wait for the next OS.  Of course, they're going to alter the features they perfected on earlier versions.

btw  I had a Windows ME machine, and except for the illegal delay in launching Netscape Navigator, it was the best computer I've ever owned.  I need a new computer, but Win 8 does not run my software, is missing a couple vital utilities, and is just plain obnoxious.  In other words, a Win 8 machine would require that I start using my computer for whatever MS intended that I use it for, and I just don't know what that is.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2014, 02:51:21 pm »
In other words, a Win 8 machine would require that I start using my computer for whatever MS intended that I use it for, and I just don't know what that is.

Make phone calls.  It is a phone OS.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2014, 10:31:04 pm »
Win 8 still looked like the old Windows under the hood.  It just lacks a lot of features and had this goofy "Metro" with its own applications.  If I weren't trying to do the stuff I do on an XP machine, it might be great!  I mean, the app designed purely for Netflix works perfectly.  When using Silverlight with IE or Chrome, you can get your computer locked up, pretty good.  You don't have that problem with the Win 8 app.  The problem comes when you want to watch TV, while you open up the week's Excel files, do a little cut and pasting for you Week Ending Report.  That's when you find out that it's really Window not Windows.

Now, I'm trying to picture this OS on a telephone.  Nope, it's not working.  I'm seeing something that is too slow, and counter-intuitive.  It reminds me of a Windows phone I'd used over the last few months.  That thing was a nightmare.  I tried a lot of phones a couple years ago.  I really like the menu layout of Verison phones, and while I didn't care for Cricket and a lot of cheaper phones, they all worked.  I knew what I was doing.  The Windows phone my company stuck me with?  What do these icons mean?  How do I get back to that last screen?  WTF?  I guess that experience was too rare, and MS wanted all PC users to experience it:  Introducing Window 8!  You'll never figure it out, because it simply doesn't do that!  It's just like Vista came out with no button to just go up one level.  It came back with Windows 7, but what a pain in the butt!

I guess MS is just ornery like that.  I wouldn't be surprised if the people running that company got caught rearranging the furniture in a blind person's house for a laugh.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2014, 12:25:37 am »
I've had another thought.  Just what is MS doing?  The only thing good about Windows XP is that it wasn't a later version of Windows.  It was produced, because Windows ME/2000 had legal problems.  Win Vista was release without being able to interface with XP, and pretty much all the default settings were deliberately chosen to cause difficulty for the end user.  Windows 7 was just a cleaned up version of Vista.  Now MS comes out with Win 8.1, where they completely change the interface to something that doesn't make sense, and take out a few tools.

The entire world depends on this single company to produce an OS to run their computers, and yet this single company goes off the deep end every three years with something that can't be used.  This consistent production of unusable Operating Systems demands an alternative.  The problem is that there is no alternative.  Linux cannot run copyrighted software, Mac is overpriced, and neither are being used to develop high end 3d applications.  This means that there are three year intervals where one has to buy an outdated OS with their new computer.

Companies depend on their 50 year old secretaries being able to use a new computer, after the old one burns up a motherboard.  Companies depend on Million dollar equipment being able to interface with the \$500 computer.  A computer is something so basic and so common that any business person should be able to pick one up at any office supply store on the way to a job, but no.  All the brick and mortar stores are selling Win 8 machines, and Win 8 is unusable.  You can but Win 7 Machines on-line, but they are not in stores.  This is because MS seems to have a slight itch where their large scale customers are concerned, and not a hang for individuals or small companies.  This should concern all businesses as every few years, the new MS OS does not integrate with the existing computer network.

This represents an obvious and, now with Win 8, predictable loss of production due to MS releases new OS's ready or not.  One way large companies can deal with this is by purchasing in bulk, whenever MS puts out a functional OS.  The other way would be to invest in an alternative.  Linux is not for the faint of heart.  To make it work, one needs to be connected with Linux people, and every company that want out of the MS dependence would have to pay big bucks to have people that knew what they were doing to integrate computers that don't have a chain of licenses on their software.  On top of that, businesses use MS Office.  Law offices used to use Word Perfect, but pretty much, your resume' needs to be in Office or Plain Text format.  Only when businesses start taking documents in Open Office formats can we even imagine a real alternative to MS.

That's the key.  Open Office needs to spread, long before anyone is going to fool with Linux.  The applications come first.  This is why I can't deal with new versions of Windows.  Since MS Office is the standard of the business world, that standard needs to be changed.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 02:39:51 am by Tulwar »
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: How badly has Windows 8 flopped?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2014, 02:03:44 am »
Quote