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#### Lieutenant_Q

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« on: April 07, 2014, 09:36:57 pm »

Quote
Many hospitals in the US still use Windows XP on workstations and healthcare devices because software developers have not had their products certified by regulators for use with later versions of Windows.

An Interesting dilemma...
"Your mighty GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children.  Now of course it's not true.  But the world only believes what the media tells them to believe.  And I tell the media what to believe, its really quite simple." - Kane (Joe Kucan) Command & Conquer Tiberium Dawn (1995)

#### Javora

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 11:45:09 pm »
Seems to me that it would be cheaper for them to keep those computers on a separate internal network, away from the outside Internet.  Then again wouldn't it be more prudent to pay that money to Microsoft (if they are going to pay Microsoft) to install complete compatibility with older programs to Win 7/8 ?  Obviously this is a cheaper option than paying to update these older programs.  If a US company does pay for continued support, then I can't to see that support leak onto the Internet.

Can't wait to see how this plays out.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 09:54:30 am »
There is a lot of equipment out there which require drivers to connect to a PC and the drivers in many cases are not compatible with newer versions of Windows.  Not just home hardware but lab equipment for taking spectrographs for one example (that I've used with driver issues).  It can be 10s of thousands of dollars or more to replace perfectly functional hardware because MS broke driver compatibility.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
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#### Corbomite

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 11:43:44 am »
Remember when we used to make fully integrated devices and machines that could function perfectly all by themselves? Even if old, as long as you gave it power, fuel, whatever, it worked just fine for years if not decades. Somewhere along the line some idiot suggested that everything would be easier if we outsourced our functionality to fickle, ever evolving, time sucking software and we forgot what the point of what we were doing was in the first place. It's been slowing us down ever since in many ways.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 01:28:52 pm »
Short term flexibility at long term costs of early replacement.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 02:00:15 pm »
As an example of "fuly intergrated devices," for many years in the video business I have pointed to the stability of cassettes, from 3/4" on. Especially the number of times an export from a computer or a DVD burn failed exactly when you needed them most - 99% of the time, a VHS copy worked (plus you knew it right away if it didn't).

That said, the level of quality to the video image I am working on today is multiple times superior - this morning I exported an 5 min HD clip in half that time, including dropping into a cloud drive and reimporting it on a duplicate machine.

Steps backwards, steps forwards...

Supplying tech support to a doctor last week, he told me about the digital flouroscopy device he was buying, for real-time internal views of a patient, including streaming the feed to a tablet. Bones would approve...

#### Corbomite

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 02:14:41 pm »
Bones would only approve if the tech was ubiquitous and user friendly.The majority of doctors having incredibly important tech to do their jobs is more important than a few being able to ignore their patients on their smartphones while they play golf. There is no need to have the device stream to anything. Download yes, stream no.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 10:00:45 am by Corbomite »

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 08:57:22 pm »
in defense of the doctor I'm talking about, no, that's not it. He wants to provide quality care in a friendly office environment while spending more than 20 minutes with a patient; having a device he can show someone where the problem lies and why he wants to poke a lng needle into their back just makes him more effective a doctor.

Sorry, it's the randomly applied cynicism that bugs me.

#### Corbomite

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 10:02:19 pm »
And the fact that the patient's medical procedures/conditions are being broadcast across an unsecure internet is not an issue? There is nothing that the patient needs to see real time. A couple of minutes (or less) later would be just as effective and there would be no need to hook anything up to an external device except a memory stick to show the patient on whatever device you like.

There are plenty of things being online is useful for. Medical tests are not one of them unless you are trying to save someone's life real time and the specialist(s) you need are not on hand.

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 12:10:13 am »
The problem is that too many institutions have been built around computers as they were 10 years ago.  The only thing that MS offers with their new machines are headaches.  Windows 8.1 is not even designed to work with a conventional work station!  Some of the most important software I had on my XP machine does not work with 8.1, and 8.1 lacks significant features, such as complete control over the color scheme.  Perhaps a 3rd party can write a "app" to change the settings in the registry to replace what had once been standard to MS OS's.  Then, MS just changes things to make them different.

I never intended to use this 12 year old mini-tower for anything but old games, but when my Win 8.1 machine suddenly failed, I was without a computer.  I found the old VGA cable goes right in my television, and wireless keyboard, mouse, and USB HD still work with it.  Wow!  I like this thing!  IE 8 rocks!

Windows made the mistake of perfecting some forms.  In the interest of "Built in obsolescence," they have to reinvent the wheel, and break the things they did right the first time.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Vipre

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 01:16:05 am »
If you want that thing to keep working don't ever touch IE.
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If aliens are real please let them know that I'm formally requesting asylum from the freakshow that is humanity."

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 07:58:01 am »
Sorry, I forgot the point of this thread is "Microsoft is evil/stupid" and "Win8 sux"

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 09:26:58 am »
Sorry, I forgot the point of this thread is "Microsoft is evil/stupid" and "Win8 sux"

I thought these were given.

What this article is about is that the IT departments of important infrastructure cannot give up their old machines, now that MS is making XP obsolete.  The thing is that most of the reason MS has to make their older systems obsolete is to justify that huge R&D department.  I'm merely expressing my amazement at how much the old user interface is superior to newer products.  Whenever a new OS comes out, there is a lot of whining and complaining.  I'm coming from the other direction.  I rediscovered the older software and found it superior.  Well, I can't say I got used to Win 8.  8up is 8up.  I did not mean to launch an anti-MS rant.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 10:57:28 am »
but that's what it  keeps turning into across these forums, a rant on the badness of MS & Win 8, anytime they're mentioned. I get what you're saying about liking older software - obviously, these SFC games is big example of our concerns here, and we want it to work. However, I have been on Win8 for a year now, and I find it much superior to Win7 and I don't find much I "miss" about XP, other than the fact that the only XP program I have trouble loading in 8.1 is SFC:OP. I find the start menu easy to use, the graphics/video programs I use work fine in 8.1, and the fact that I'm on a cutting edge piece of hardware is all I care about. That's my opinion, just like you finding older software superior. Rationlizing "why" MS does things is speculative and prone to hyperbole.

I read the article too, and my takeaway is cynical about the healthcare industry, which has vastly deep pockets and is notoriously cheap about infrastructure. Between  VM and compatibility modes a lot of the older hardware can be made to work. Witness the move by banks to upgrade their ATMs from XP. Progress is progress, and I guess there's always scramble

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 03:33:09 pm »
It isn't just healthcare or IT departments it is across the board industry.  My last employer had a lot of trouble keeping a spectrograph working because the company didn't make drivers for later versions of Windows.  There was no way that they were going to budget to replace it.  My current employer (nameless due to NDA) runs various production lines using old Windows machines.  At least some of the software won't work on newer machines.  They also need serial and parallel ports which are becoming rarer.

Microsoft really never intended XP to last so long and they want to go on with more rapid OS replacement cycles in the future. This is bad for industry whose major hardware may be controlled by Windows machines which can't be controlled by the next revision of Windows due to software incompatibility.  They can't afford to replace primary production machinery every time MS obsoletes a version of Windows.  Industry needs to move off of commodity Windows on to software that can be counted on to maintain backwards compatibility for literally decades.

Consider home automation/security systems run by Windows.  How many times would you want to replace the whole system because you can no longer get the last version of Windows and it isn't compatible with the newer versions?
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2014, 02:52:44 am »
GM "built-in obsolescence" with the model year.  The end of support for an OS is much like cutting off replacement parts for automobiles.

The reason that in Europe, especially England, needs to keep XP is that they are practicing some severe fiscal austerity.  Their economy makes the US economy look good.  They should have been replacing their computers all along, but they haven't.  They're running old pieces of junk, like my current machine.

Nemesis makes a really good point.  Aside from academia and medicine, industry uses machines for decades.  If those machines are being used over several decades, for the want of a $500 mini-tower, running twenty year old software, a$500,000.00 custom built machine might need to be scrapped.  That is, assuming anybody makes a machine like it, anymore.

Terminating support for Win XP a year before a new OS is to be released is troublesome for anyone wanting a new computer, let alone companies, institutions, and governments.  Everybody whined about Win ME.  With the exception of the illegal anti-competitive routines built into it, that was the last machine I enjoyed having.  Windows XP has simply been the least of many evils.  I'm going to use it until Win 9 comes out.  I'm not bothering to fix my 8.1 machine.  With the exception of the Netflix app, it didn't do anything better than this machine, and a lot not nearly as well.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2014, 03:50:20 am »
GM "built-in obsolescence" with the model year.  The end of support for an OS is much like cutting off replacement parts for automobiles.

The new car is operated in the same fundamental way as the old car.  If  you have other equipment like a trailer the new car can still tow it.  It still drives on the same roads.  It can still do what the old one could

New computer may not operate with any of the old equipment/software and require you to replace it all.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Vipre

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2014, 07:59:07 pm »
The end of support for an OS is much like cutting off replacement parts for automobiles.

Not really. When the OEM stops producing replacement parts aftermarket suppliers are allowed to take the "source code" and continue making new parts. With an OS it's just left to rot by the parent company in order to force a new "car" purchase.
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If aliens are real please let them know that I'm formally requesting asylum from the freakshow that is humanity."

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2014, 09:55:46 pm »
These analogies don't work that well.

Back in the 20th Century, I thought of a computer as a collection of parts, and then, I bought my first complete machine.  It was a little Win 95 desktop.  It was cheap, and after the software failure recover wizard failed, it worked perfectly.  It was all complete and came with useful utilities.  I suddenly understood that complete systems were cheap and easy to use.

Of course, the reason that machine was so affordable was because it was little, and last year's model.  I could scrape together enough money to replace it, until the year 2000.  I missed out on Windows 98/NT, and bought a really powerful Win ME machine really cheap.  Despite everything evil I heard about Win ME, that machine rocked!  It came packed with useful applications and had a 40 Gig HD.  ISFC worked perfectly with a dial-up modem on that machine.   Then, I put a video card in it that destroyed power supplies.  Oops.

Getting tired of replacing PS's, I bought my first XP Pro machine.  It was a PoS.  Oh, it worked pretty much like the ME machine.  It was just slower.  It also got every virus on the internet, despite anti-viral software, and then I made the mistake of buying Norton's 360.  Back, in the days of DOS, Doc Norton was your friend, not any more.  I tried to go "Cadillac" when I bought my Vista machine, but that was a mistake.  Vista was not released as a usable OS.  I quickly tired of going through the registry to pick out keys for software that failed to install correctly.  I fell back on XP.  I never liked XP.  I just haven't been able to use Vista and Win8.  My only experience with Win 7 is with my employer's machine.  I still don't understand what people liked about Win7.  I do not appreciate the way it handles overlapping windows.  I still prefer XP when I'm juggling a half dozen spread-sheets.  A little continuity would be nice.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2014, 10:26:26 pm »
Nemesis makes a really good point.  Aside from academia and medicine, industry uses machines for decades.  If those machines are being used over several decades, for the want of a $500 mini-tower, running twenty year old software, a$500,000.00 custom built machine might need to be scrapped.  That is, assuming anybody makes a machine like it, anymore.

Does no one else remember "Windows for Warships"?  How much does a top of the line Destroyer with every thing computerized cost to scrap or re-engineer when MS obsoletes your OS?  Planned life span of said destroyer compared to lifespan of a Microsoft OS?
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Age

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2014, 07:28:32 pm »
Like a lot of old things some software refuses to die eg LPs are hotter now more than ever.

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2014, 01:55:39 pm »

Does no one else remember "Windows for Warships"?  How much does a top of the line Destroyer with every thing computerized cost to scrap or re-engineer when MS obsoletes your OS?  Planned life span of said destroyer compared to lifespan of a Microsoft OS?

The idea of operating military equipment on civilian electronics is scary on a number of levels.  I looked it up on Wikipedia, and I can't believe anybody was serious with the idea.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2014, 02:06:48 pm »
Like a lot of old things some software refuses to die eg LPs are hotter now more than ever.

There is a reason for this.  Quadraphonic sound recording was perfected in the 1970's with analog technology.  Digital recording still has a way to go.  In analog recordings, the media cannot record ultra and sub sonic frequencies.  The sounds people cannot hear drop off in a very natural way.  Digital sampling captures everything!  This means you can blow your speakers with sounds you can't even hear.

They've been trying to eliminate the ultra-highs and Ultra-lows, without distorting the perceptible range for decades.  At first, they simply cut the highs and lows, but people noticed.  They came up with "Dynamic Compression," but people still complain that they are missing something.

To make this more notable, in analog times, the artists created their sounds around the limitations and strengths of the recording equipment.  Different technology has different strengths and weaknesses.  The only way to get that '70's sound is to play it with '70's equipment.  Newer equipment will emphasize and drop different sounds.

Then there is the anecdotal evidence:  I've been assured by one person working with professional sound equipment that there is a very noticeable difference between analog and digital recording.  When complaining about not being able to hear a couple of notes in my favorite song, a younger guy at work assured me that it wasn't because I'm losing my hearing, but because I was listening to a CD.  To test this out, I'm going to have to buy a turn-table and an LP.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Age

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2014, 06:43:31 pm »
I guess that is why my lp sound good on my old 77 Sanyo reciever.There is another eg and that is old cars were made far better and simple.

#### knightstorm

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2014, 07:23:13 pm »
There is another eg and that is old cars were made far better and simple.

They were also made heavier, less fuel efficient, and lacking in safety features.

#### Corbomite

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2014, 11:46:40 pm »
There is another eg and that is old cars were made far better and simple.

They were also made heavier, less fuel efficient, and lacking in safety features.

Ahh, the good ol' days...

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2014, 02:14:55 am »
That was the fun!  I had a Datsun 240z.  It looked like the 280z, but it was a different animal.  It had that good Nissan clutch, but I've never driven a car that could engine brake like that thing.  It would fishtail if someone spit on the sidewalk.  It could go over 100 mph pretty easily, but it was also easily lose control at 35 mph.  Then again, even newer Nissans are extremely light and overpowered.

I can't understand why anyone would want a sports car with an automatic.  I once drove a Subaru with 4WD , 265 hp, and an automatic transmission.  If you start to lose control of a car like that, well, it's going to be at very high speed and under conditions where recovery just isn't likely.  RIP.  Driving that thing was about as exciting as watching paint dry.  At least a Dodge Neon with an automatic would get your heart thumping as you put your foot through the firewall, trying to merge on the highway!

Oh, I just remembered one of my problems w/ Win 8.  I bought a Western Digital external HD at the same time.  Turns out WD didn't have a good set of Win 8 drivers.  It doesn't like to come out of sleep mode.  Oops.  I hate surprises.  May XP last until someone releases a tolerable OS.  I'm thinking about buying a Chromebook and installing Ubuntu Linux.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2014, 09:54:48 am »
Just curious - why get a chromebook and then put a Linux build on it? Chrome OS not for you? You could of course accomplish the same thing putting ubuntu on any laptop/netbook.

Man, nothing like geezers being curmudgeons, not that I'm not one myself...

My other car is a 75 Jeep DJ5 with a rebuilt chrysler 727 trans. When I pop the hood, even a car noob like me can identify and fix the carb, alternator, plugs. My mechanic says he can fix the thing in his sleep. I love it, it's a blast to ride and I get nothing but smiles from others on the road. It also gets horrendous mileage, can't go over 50 without peril, parts are becoming harder to find, and if I were in an accident I would be horribly hurt, and most likely killed if at speeds above 40. My main car is a '08 mazda3 manual which gets 23mpg city, zippy as hell and airbags in every conceivable position, safe for the family. I will never put my kids in the jeep.

I'm sure this won't convince anyone but everything I've read is that the "vinyl is best" is a myth (http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=1&doc_id=1283408), and what really matters is just having a decent sound system, whatever the source

C'mon guys! Change is ineveitible! Resistance is futile!

#### Corbomite

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2014, 10:17:29 am »
I love change and I love new tech, but only if it's a move forward and not just an excuse to make more money. Some things are just made nearly perfect the first time they are invented. Look at how long it took them to improve the toothbrush. Oh, they motorized it and played with the head and the handle some, but until they came up with sonic cleaners you just couldn't beat bristles on a stick for cleaning your teeth. Worked for hundreds of years.

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2014, 05:54:36 pm »
Just curious - why get a chromebook and then put a Linux build on it? Chrome OS not for you? You could of course accomplish the same thing putting ubuntu on any laptop/netbook.

Get away from the Google tracking of everything and have Linux compatible hardware.

Also your system works fully even when not connected to the internet.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### knightstorm

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2014, 06:11:13 pm »
One explanation that I've heard for the apparent inferiority of CD to vinyl is that CDs of older recordings were made using masters that were intended for vinyl.

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2014, 06:51:00 am »
The problem with a buying a Linux system is price.  Remember, you can buy Windows machines for $300.00 all day long. Software companies pay the hardware companies to buy all that useless garbage on your computer when it comes from the store. A Windows machine comes with a substantial discount. To buy a machine with Linux installed, hardware makers charge a premium, so it just costs more. Chromebooks, on the other hand, are really cheap machines with a lobotomized OS. All they're really good for is paying a monthly rate for whatever you need a computer for. The price is down around$200.00.  So, if you want a machine that can run open office, or perhaps use WINE to for the outdated Windows software that you've been using for 20 years and just doesn't work with the current version of Windows, you can just wipe the HD and install Ubuntu.

Eventually, the world is going to go Linux.  Computers are made in China, and the Chinese government runs Linux.  They are Communist, after all.  For a long time, there is going to be this East/West split, with the English world running MS, and the Chinese running Linux.  With China's manpower, the Chinese will be able to employ vast numbers of software engineers to outproduce the West.  Of course, they'll continue to backwards engineer MS products with their vast industrial espionage networks.  Once the Chinese come to dominate the world technologically,  MS will disappear.

Of course, all the good software will be Chinese language.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### TAnimaL

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2014, 05:14:08 pm »
OH, thanks Tulwar, I needed a good laugh today..

#### Age

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2014, 05:24:03 pm »
You mean this car I ma Muscle Man myself love the sounds of good V8.

I thought you had to install Linux yourself as you can't a buy machine with it.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 06:23:45 pm by Age »

#### knightstorm

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2014, 07:51:39 pm »
You linux people are becoming increasingly militant!

NSFW due to F-bombs
 Jackass Presents: Bad Grandpa | Penguin Scene

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2014, 08:18:17 pm »
Toshiba and other companies will build a Linux machine for you, but they're going make you pay through the nose.

Thanks for the 240z vid.  It is amazing how you could feel the road in those cars!  You could really feel the texture through the steering wheel.  They didn't have power steering, either.  The engine was made before catalytic converters, so it still had a very high compression ratio.  Without fuel injection, the engine backfired as you would engine brake, and you would start braking the instant you eased up on the accelerator.  I mean, as soon as there wasn't enough gas to maintain speed, that engine would backfire and try to stop the car.  The scent of raw gasoline would enter the cabin, even as the steering wheel lunged at your face.

That was a car!  These days, almost anything could out-perform it.  A moderately priced sedan could beat it in the quarter mile, and the average econobox could take a sharper turn, but it was so raw and dangerous!  Now driving a car is about as exciting as typing on a keyboard.  You're going to have to do something really stupid to lose control, because operating at the limits of a modern machine is suicidal.

This raises an issue.  As processor speed increases, year after year, not to mention "dual" or even "quad-core," my new computer is always slower than my old computer.  They don't seem to do anything my old computer didn't; they just do it slower.  I guess it's because I'm working with store-bought Windows machines, and I haven't wiped the HD and performed a clean installation of Windows.  Then again, I remember the machine I downgraded from Vista to XP:  When I installed SP3, it took just as long to boot as it did to boot up Vista.  Unlike automobiles, I don't think that Windows OS are really improving, at least, from the end user's point of view.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2014, 09:33:06 pm »
Toshiba and other companies will build a Linux machine for you, but they're going make you pay through the nose.

That couldn't possibly be because Microsoft will raise their prices to companies that build any real numbers of Linux machines at competitive prices?
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2014, 07:58:50 pm »
This raises an issue.  As processor speed increases, year after year, not to mention "dual" or even "quad-core," my new computer is always slower than my old computer.  They don't seem to do anything my old computer didn't; they just do it slower.  I guess it's because I'm working with store-bought Windows machines, and I haven't wiped the HD and performed a clean installation of Windows.  Then again, I remember the machine I downgraded from Vista to XP:  When I installed SP3, it took just as long to boot as it did to boot up Vista.  Unlike automobiles, I don't think that Windows OS are really improving, at least, from the end user's point of view.

Windows keeps adding layers of cruft and controls.  Not controls for you to use but controls to control YOU.  Part of the slowness of Vista forward is the constantly running DRM to prevent you from violating copyrights.  Somehow Microsoft thinks that they are law enforcement, judge and jury as well.  Their software judges what you are doing to be a legal violation and stops you.  I first saw that with Win2k which stopped me from legally copying a DVD.  It would have been illegal in the U.S. but not here where I bought the Win2k.

I have a wireless internet connection now (yes Stephen I did move out of the dial up era some time ago..  Since it was a USB Stick not compatible with Linux I bought the hotspot which lets me connect up to 5 machines so I could connect the Linux desktop I'm currently posting from.  I also had to get wireless USB network sticks for the two desktops.  Why is it that the Chromebook, Linux desktop, android tablet and Win7Pro 64bit netbook all had no difficulty connecting but the Win7Pro 64bit desktop had to enable internet sharing before IT could access the internet through the hotspot connected to it?   (That doesn't happen when it is connected to the netbook.)
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2014, 08:14:20 pm »

That couldn't possibly be because Microsoft will raise their prices to companies that build any real numbers of Linux machines at competitive prices?

I wouldn't put it past MS.  I guess they could do that, and that 1 minute delay MS wrote into 2000 and ME was declared an illegal, amti-competative practice.  What I know is that MS and every rat-fink, screw-you-over-in-a-heartbeat software publisher pays to pre-load Windows machine with crapware.  That is introductory software that you can't use, but it still takes up space in the registry, slowing your machine down, but you just can't get rid of it without completely wiping the HD.  I'm told that that is a significant source of revenue for the computer companies.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2014, 09:15:47 pm »

Windows keeps adding layers of cruft and controls.  Not controls for you to use but controls to control YOU.  Part of the slowness of Vista forward is the constantly running DRM to prevent you from violating copyrights.  Somehow Microsoft thinks that they are law enforcement, judge and jury as well.  Their software judges what you are doing to be a legal violation and stops you.  I first saw that with Win2k which stopped me from legally copying a DVD.  It would have been illegal in the U.S. but not here where I bought the Win2k.

I've understood this to be a big part of it.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Age

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2014, 06:29:06 pm »
Toshiba and other companies will build a Linux machine for you, but they're going make you pay through the nose.

I have never seen a a name brand PC to come with Linux as all are preinstalled with Windows on them from the factory and other propietary software.

You are welcome for the Vid.I know a lot of Muscle cars that would beat it.

#### knightstorm

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2014, 07:11:48 pm »
Toshiba and other companies will build a Linux machine for you, but they're going make you pay through the nose.

That couldn't possibly be because Microsoft will raise their prices to companies that build any real numbers of Linux machines at competitive prices?

Another possibility is that for the windows machines, the cost for developing drivers is spread out along a great number of units resulting in less of a markup.

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2014, 11:00:16 pm »

I have never seen a a name brand PC to come with Linux as all are preinstalled with Windows on them from the factory and other propietary software.

Toshiba did a few years ago.  I don't think they do, anymore.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2014, 06:55:38 am »
I have never seen a a name brand PC to come with Linux as all are preinstalled with Windows on them from the factory and other propietary software.

They do exist but to avoid angering Microsoft they are hard to find on the company websites.

When Microsoft started getting Windows put on Netbooks (rumoured to be pressure on the companies) they wouldn't allow the same model or a cheaper variant to be released with a lower price.  At least some of the companies released similar models with higher amounts of flash for the same price.  Microsoft didn't like that and Ballmer started making his anti Linux threats and they vanished.  Hard not to think that there were also behind the scenes threats against those companies as this was followed by the vanishing of Linux netbooks.

Another possibility is that for the windows machines, the cost for developing drivers is spread out along a great number of units resulting in less of a markup.

If so then it is their own fault.  Most drivers are open source and developed and maintained by independents.  These people have to work hard to figure out how to write the drivers and would dearly love to have the specifications for the units but most companies won't supply such. A few like ATi have started releasing open source drivers but without documentation.  Fewer still release the documentation that makes it easy to develop the drivers.  Make the documentation available and publicize it and they can get freely written drivers freely maintained.  Keep it secret and the drivers may still be developed but won't be as good as the developers must try to deduce by experimentation what your device can do and how it does it.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2014, 02:11:39 pm »
Well, the Chinese government is one of if not the largest consumer of computers in the world, and they run Linux.  I'm sure that they will influence component manufacturers for years to come.  I'm not sure that does us any good.  After all, we deal with the factories in China that produce for export.  Who knows if we're just getting the monkey-model computers here.  All the good stuff could be made for internal use only.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2014, 04:06:27 pm »
If you were China would you use a OS that is rumoured to have holes in it to let the NSA at your data?  Don't think so.  As a Canadian I don't like my government using it for that reason alone.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2014, 08:43:56 pm »
Personally, I wouldn't put it past the Chinese government to have those holes hard coded in every computer component made.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Age

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2014, 06:58:15 pm »
I have never seen a a name brand PC to come with Linux as all are preinstalled with Windows on them from the factory and other propietary software.

They do exist but to avoid angering Microsoft they are hard to find on the company websites.

When Microsoft started getting Windows put on Netbooks (rumoured to be pressure on the companies) they wouldn't allow the same model or a cheaper variant to be released with a lower price.  At least some of the companies released similar models with higher amounts of flash for the same price.  Microsoft didn't like that and Ballmer started making his anti Linux threats and they vanished.  Hard not to think that there were also behind the scenes threats against those companies as this was followed by the vanishing of Linux netbooks.

You would probably have to oder it not just go into say Futurshop and buy one off the shelf.That is what I am referring to for the average pc user.

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2014, 09:53:11 pm »

You would probably have to oder it not just go into say Futurshop and buy one off the shelf.That is what I am referring to for the average pc user.

For that matter, you have to go on-line to get a Win 7 machine.  I think I might do that, but I don't want to buy an OS that has already been superseded.  I might as well buy another used computer.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Age

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 08:07:32 pm »

You would probably have to oder it not just go into say Futurshop and buy one off the shelf.That is what I am referring to for the average pc user.

For that matter, you have to go on-line to get a Win 7 machine.  I think I might do that, but I don't want to buy an OS that has already been superseded.  I might as well buy another used computer.
Why buy it online and if any Windows OS come with it.It will be Windows 8 not 7 as that is out of production.When you buy a used computer it comes with no OS.

#### Tulwar

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2014, 08:28:33 am »
Used computers are usually refurbished Dells, HPs, or some other name brand that has been "refurbished."  That is, they have some crap soldiering job on some burnt up connection and a fresh coat of paint.  They still have the tag with the serial# of a MS OS, so whomever refurbished it went ahead and reloaded the OS without all the crapware.  Aside from the hardware being suspect and the microscopic HD, they're better than new.  Often, a mom and pop store will have a dozen stacked up.

The computer I'm using is of this nature.  It only has a 40 Gig HD, which ain't much.  The PS2 connection for the keyboard doesn't work.  That must have been the original failure for which it had been refurbished.  There is a reason the military does all of its electronic repairs in house.  When the Army sent its radios out for repair, they came back looking like new, but they still didn't work.  I got lucky with this one.  The USB ports work fine.

Right now, you can go to Toshiba's website and buy a Window's 8 Pro laptop for $450.00, and that will come with rights to downgrade to Win 7 Pro. If you want a machine with Win 7 Home edition, it will cost you about$100 less.  Not all models with all processors can be configured with Win 7, but Toshiba is really good at making it easy to find what you want.  Trying to find Win 7 Pro on HP and Dell's sites is not as easy, but they still offer Win 7.  MS has to allow computer vendors to do this, because their new OS's tend not to play well their larger customers' networks.  They don't give a crap about you and me, but companies like Toyota and ADM buy a lot of MS software, and have the means to go elsewhere.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

#### Nemesis

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##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2014, 02:39:02 pm »
I'm posting from a refurbished Chromebook and my SETI machine is a refurbished machine that came with Win 7 Pro 64 bit.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

#### Tulwar

• Lt. Commander
• Posts: 1328
##### Re: I'm Not dead yet!
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2014, 12:07:11 am »
I just can't risk \$200.00 on a refurbished machine.  Too often, they break down immediately.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary