Topic: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies  (Read 16145 times)

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Offline EschelonOfJudgemnt

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Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« on: July 22, 2014, 09:49:03 am »
In relation to some comments I saw posted on another site (Dailytech), I felt the need to look up the box office numbers for the various Trek movies.

Certainly, the more recent movies had bigger box office numbers, but after adjusting for ticket price inflation, here is how the movies stack up:

Rank       Movie                                                          Adj. Gross        Unadj. Gross       Release Date
1           Star Trek                                                   $275,002,200   $257,730,019            5/8/09
2           Star Trek: The Motion Picture                    $260,867,500     $82,258,456          12/7/79
3           Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home                $229,804,900   $109,713,132         11/26/86
4           Star Trek Into Darkness                            $217,312,400    $228,778,661          5/16/13
5         Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan               $213,655,500      $78,912,963            6/4/82
6          Star Trek III: The Search for Spock           $181,163,600      $76,471,046            6/1/84
7          Star Trek: First Contact                             $165,101,400      $92,027,888       11/22/96
8          Star Trek: Generations                              $143,641,000      $75,671,125        11/18/94
9          Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country  $142,450,100      $74,888,996           12/6/91
10        Star Trek: Insurrection                              $117,001,600      $70,187,658        12/11/98
11        Star Trek V: The Final Frontier                   $104,683,100     $52,210,049        6/9/89
12        Star Trek: Nemesis                                       $58,587,900     $43,254,409         12/13/02
TOTAL:                                                               $2,109,271,100  $1,242,104,402   -
AVERAGE:                                                          $175,772,600      $103,508,700   

Box Office numbers are from here:


I would have thought that STII:TWOK would have rated higher, based on the number of people that cite that as the best Trek  movie.  My fave (STVI:TUC) came it at 9...
STV beat out Nemesis...  Wow, did  Nemesis have sucky box office numbers!  It's pretty sad when a movie released 13 years earlier made still made $9 million more, in unadjusted dollars... Nemesis is the only movie that didn't break $100 Million (adjusted) in today's box office dollars.

It's interesting to note that ST:TMP comes in fairly close to Star Trek in adjusted Box Office numbers, and that the Whales beat out Into Darkness... of course there are several memorable quotables in STIV...
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 10:20:43 am »
Don't forget "I'm from Iowa. I only work in outer space."


ST:TMP benefited from the expectation wave, and TWOK suffered from the slight backlash that TMP didn't quite live up to expectations (and that you really needed to know the back story to completely enjoy it on all levels). ST:IV was not the best Trek movie as they go out of their way to violate the Temporal Prime Directive at every turn, but had the wider audience appeal of occuring in our century (less technobabble and unfamiliar things) and had the whales which were big in the public conciousness at that time. I seem to be in the minority, but I love ST:III. It has the best McCoy lines ever and Christopher Lloyd was the best Klingon they've had IMO. I always enjoy watching it.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 10:40:41 am »
I seem to be in the minority, but I love ST:III.


I'm part of an even smaller minority that likes ST V.  I guess part of my fondness for it comes from the fact that it was the first Trek film that I saw in theaters.  I'm also fascinated with cults which gives the storyline further appeal to me.  I do find it a bit ominous in some regards since Nichelle Nichols' younger brother committed suicide with the Heaven's Gate cult a few years later.  Also, Tupac apparently liked it too.
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Offline Vipre

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 02:08:33 pm »
There are a couple more adjustments that would be interesting to add in. Theater for one. Yeah the reboot out-boxed TMP but it took 4 times the number of theaters to do it. The other might be population adjustment "X $ of tickets sold as a percentage of population at the time" or something like that.

Example:

Gross per thousand theaters shown in adjusting for ticket price inflation

    ST:TMP    $260,346,806.39 per 1000 theaters
    ST:II        $134,950,832.82 per 1000
    ST:IV       $120,291,513.29
    ST:III         $94,347,812.82
    ST:VI         $67,932,137.87
    Star Trek    $67,851,517.39
    ST:FC        $60,114,615.93
    ST:ID         $56,948,937.80
    ST:Gen      $54,856,247.67
    ST:V          $48,674,750.23
    ST:Ins       $44,749,495.70
    Nem          $22,127,001.11

Big difference. Who knows what TMP might have done if given the same release spread as Trek 09.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 07:06:57 pm by Vipre »
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2014, 02:29:19 pm »
Another thing to take into account with the reboot was the level of hype and marketing.  I don't remember any of the real Trek films in my lifetime recieving the level of promotion that Abrams gave his garbage.

Offline Age

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2014, 03:01:54 pm »
I happen to like ST.V as we get to see more of the A and shuttles used.I do like the fact that Melanie Shatner appears in it as a yeoman in a skirt.

Offline EschelonOfJudgemnt

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 05:13:10 pm »
To be fair, I really enjoyed Star Trek V, right up until they arrived at the Galactic Core.  I think that, if the last half/third of that movie had been scripted differently, it would have been more appealing to me as a whole.  It's the last third/half of that movie that turned me off.


And, having been one of the droves of teenagers that saw ST:TMP on the big screen, that movie still has the wow factor for me.  The sets and model work they did in that movie is astounding even today.  Sure, the story is a bit plodding, but that movie had a great soundtrack as well.  Seeing the trio of Klingon Battlecruisers, as well as the new Klingon makeup, not to mention the debut of the Klingon and (a more completely thought out) Vulcan languages (we only had a few language snippets of the Vulcan language in the series), well quite simply that movie laid a lot of new groundwork, which the franchise has benefitted from ever since.

And yeah, the Klingon theme from ST:TMP is still one of my fave Star Trek music snippets.  STII had some very memorable music as well.

Christopher Lloyd certainly did a great job as a Klingon as well, no question.  My 'quintessential' Klingon from a looks perspective, even though he had only a couple of lines, is in ST VI.  That'd be Brigadier Kerla, probably because he looks so handsome and well groomed for a Klingon.

I don't expect my Klingons to be angry all the time, which is probably why I relate more with Kerla.

Star Trek VI had a lot of fun coming up with new 'looks' for the different Klingons, hence probably why I relate with it so much.  A race should have a lot of diversity, and it shows in STVI.

But I digress...

So yeah, color me a TMP fanboy.  I still enjoy watching that movie.  Plus, Persis Khambatta looked pretty hot for a bald woman!

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2014, 05:28:16 pm »
It wasn't so much Lloyd's anger per se, it was his ruthlessness. We really hadn't seen that level since Kor in TOS.

Offline Brush Wolf

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2014, 09:03:28 pm »
Don't forget "I'm from Iowa. I only work in outer space."


ST:TMP benefited from the expectation wave, and TWOK suffered from the slight backlash that TMP didn't quite live up to expectations (and that you really needed to know the back story to completely enjoy it on all levels). ST:IV was not the best Trek movie as they go out of their way to violate the Temporal Prime Directive at every turn, but had the wider audience appeal of occuring in our century (less technobabble and unfamiliar things) and had the whales which were big in the public conciousness at that time. I seem to be in the minority, but I love ST:III. It has the best McCoy lines ever and Christopher Lloyd was the best Klingon they've had IMO. I always enjoy watching it.

TMP is actually a decent movie but it was not the Trek we knew. ST III is outside of the reincarnation business was good Trek and Christopher Lloyd defined the Klingon's for the rest of time.
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Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 05:06:30 pm »
World Population By Year




Year Population
2015* 7,215,000,000
2014* 7,141,000,000
2013 7,086,000,000
2012 6,992,000,000
2011 6,916,000,000
2010 6,840,000,000
2009 6,765,000,000
2008 6,689,000,000
2007 6,613,000,000
2006 6,538,000,000
2005 6,462,000,000
2004 6,387,000,000
2003 6,311,000,000
2002 6,234,000,000
2001 6,158,000,000
2000 6,081,000,000
1999 6,004,000,000
1998 5,926,000,000
1997 5,847,000,000
1996 5,766,000,000
1995 5,687,000,000
1994 5,606,000,000
1993 5,526,000,000
1992 5,444,000,000
1991 5,361,000,000
1990 5,278,000,000
1989 5,191,000,000
1988 5,105,000,000
1987 5,018,000,000
1986 4,933,000,000
1985 4,850,000,000
1984 4,770,000,000
1983 4,690,000,000
1982 4,610,000,000
1981 4,530,000,000
1980 4,454,000,000
1979 4,378,000,000
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Offline Vipre

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2014, 06:51:46 pm »
US population would be what's needed for these numbers but yeah, US pop in '79 was 73% of the pop in '09. Factor that info in alone and Trek09 drops to $201,753,741.02, TMP still whips it.
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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 12:16:03 pm »
How do these numbers compare to JJ Trek?
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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 04:45:03 pm »
I've just finished re-watching all the original cast ST movies . . . 5 was pure sh*t.  I'm not sure how anyone could like that movie.  I need to re-watch Nemesis to see which one was worst.

Best one?  6.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2014, 04:46:14 pm »
To be fair, I really enjoyed Star Trek V, right up until they arrived at the Galactic Core.  I think that, if the last half/third of that movie had been scripted differently, it would have been more appealing to me as a whole.  It's the last third/half of that movie that turned me off.

Shatner is a sh*tty director.  That's why the movie sucked.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2014, 09:49:55 pm »
I've just finished re-watching all the original cast ST movies . . . 5 was pure sh*t.  I'm not sure how anyone could like that movie.

Compared to Abrams' garbage its a work of art.

To be fair, I really enjoyed Star Trek V, right up until they arrived at the Galactic Core.  I think that, if the last half/third of that movie had been scripted differently, it would have been more appealing to me as a whole.  It's the last third/half of that movie that turned me off.

Shatner is a sh*tty director.  That's why the movie sucked.

Don't dis Shatner.  The only known being who can compare to him in awesomeness is David Hasselhoff.  Its rumored that Chuck Norris might surpass them, but no one has ever gotten close enough to assess his awesomeness and lived to tell the tale.

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2014, 11:05:22 pm »

Don't dis Shatner.  The only known being who can compare to him in awesomeness is David Hasselhoff.  Its rumored that Chuck Norris might surpass them, but no one has ever gotten close enough to assess his awesomeness and lived to tell the tale.

Shatner is great at being Shatner, but he's a sh*tty director.
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Offline Brush Wolf

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2014, 10:09:36 am »
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2014, 03:16:13 pm »

Don't dis Shatner.  The only known being who can compare to him in awesomeness is David Hasselhoff.  Its rumored that Chuck Norris might surpass them, but no one has ever gotten close enough to assess his awesomeness and lived to tell the tale.

Shatner is great at being Shatner, but he's a sh*tty director.

FOOL! Shatner does everything right.  He's two parts god one part man.

Offline Vipre

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2014, 04:45:52 pm »
My ears might be broken, all I hear in that video is Shatner saying "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra".
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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2014, 04:55:45 am »

Don't dis Shatner.  The only known being who can compare to him in awesomeness is David Hasselhoff.  Its rumored that Chuck Norris might surpass them, but no one has ever gotten close enough to assess his awesomeness and lived to tell the tale.

Shatner is great at being Shatner, but he's a sh*tty director.

Shatner directed STV, back when he was hating on nerdy trekkies.  A few years later, when he started seeing pretty girls show up at conventions, slathered in green paint, all of the sudden Star Trek was "fun."  As far as being "awesome," I have another word.  It also begins with an "A," but end in a "hole."
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2014, 10:17:25 am »

Shatner directed STV, back when he was hating on nerdy trekkies.  A few years later, when he started seeing pretty girls show up at conventions, slathered in green paint, all of the sudden Star Trek was "fun."  As far as being "awesome," I have another word.  It also begins with an "A," but end in a "hole."

Watch Boston Legal.  Shatner is awesome.
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Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2014, 04:07:35 pm »

Shatner directed STV, back when he was hating on nerdy trekkies.  A few years later, when he started seeing pretty girls show up at conventions, slathered in green paint, all of the sudden Star Trek was "fun."  As far as being "awesome," I have another word.  It also begins with an "A," but end in a "hole."

Watch Boston Legal.  Shatner is awesome.

He was playing a pompous A-hole.  How could he go wrong?
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2014, 07:22:42 pm »
Keep it gay people!
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Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2014, 10:36:31 am »
I've just finished re-watching all the original cast ST movies . . . 5 was pure sh*t.  I'm not sure how anyone could like that movie.  I need to re-watch Nemesis to see which one was worst.

Best one?  6.

I don't like 6 as much as I used to. I've always had a problem with a bird of prey prototype that can fire cloaked, but in the next 75 years of trek history the Klingons are never able to make another?

What really bothers me now is the lack of thought in the khitomer battle as to damage to the enterprise.  In WOK a hit to engineering exterior of ship leads to a shot of engineering interior being damaged. Port torpedo deck exterior gets hit, interior of torpedo room is seen blowing up. In TUC such sense is tossed out the airlock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqCJ-UGYns
The first torpedo damages the underside of the saucer even though shields are at full strength. Later we have a shot that skims along the top port side of the saucer, yet we then cut to mayhem in the engine room in the secondary hull, shields still up. Throw in a hit to the underside of  the secondary hull from behind just beyond the hangar deck and then bridge mayhem being shown as the next shot and I'm really wondering what the production team was smoking. For your further consideration is the shot that goes through the bottom of the enterprise saucer and out through the top while making two 90 degree turns in the process. In through the bottom, then 90 degrees horizontal to blow a hole through the dining room door. (yes a torpedo sized hole, not just blowing out the door or wall) Then apparently a 90 degree vertical turn to go out the top.  What a load of crap!
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2014, 11:45:50 am »
ST:VI was enjoyable on some levels, but they lost me with bubblegum pink blood long before the major firing started.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2014, 03:08:10 pm »
I've just finished re-watching all the original cast ST movies . . . 5 was pure sh*t.  I'm not sure how anyone could like that movie.  I need to re-watch Nemesis to see which one was worst.

Best one?  6.

I don't like 6 as much as I used to. I've always had a problem with a bird of prey prototype that can fire cloaked, but in the next 75 years of trek history the Klingons are never able to make another?


I never liked the BoP period.  The 37mm gun pods, the lack of separated warp engine nacelles, and the complete lack of familial resemblance to the battle cruiser seemed inappropriate.

I've just finished re-watching all the original cast ST movies . . . 5 was pure sh*t.  I'm not sure how anyone could like that movie.  I need to re-watch Nemesis to see which one was worst.

Best one?  6.



What really bothers me now is the lack of thought in the khitomer battle as to damage to the enterprise.  In WOK a hit to engineering exterior of ship leads to a shot of engineering interior being damaged. Port torpedo deck exterior gets hit, interior of torpedo room is seen blowing up. In TUC such sense is tossed out the airlock.

The first torpedo damages the underside of the saucer even though shields are at full strength. Later we have a shot that skims along the top port side of the saucer, yet we then cut to mayhem in the engine room in the secondary hull, shields still up. Throw in a hit to the underside of  the secondary hull from behind just beyond the hangar deck and then bridge mayhem being shown as the next shot and I'm really wondering what the production team was smoking. For your further consideration is the shot that goes through the bottom of the enterprise saucer and out through the top while making two 90 degree turns in the process. In through the bottom, then 90 degrees horizontal to blow a hole through the dining room door. (yes a torpedo sized hole, not just blowing out the door or wall) Then apparently a 90 degree vertical turn to go out the top.  What a load of crap!

1.)  The director decided to use some of the "optional rules."

2.)  As far as "torpedo sized sized hole" goes, I thought the hole somewhat less than "torpedo sized."  To me, It looked like the director was so enamored with a shell or cannonball crashing through a ship that he didn't care whether or not spaceships carry such weapons.  I had a WTF moment when I first saw it.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2014, 03:31:33 pm »

the complete lack of familial resemblance to the battle cruiser seemed inappropriate.


What are you talking about?  The BOP displays the traditional phallic Klingon form factor.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2014, 07:42:48 pm »

the complete lack of familial resemblance to the battle cruiser seemed inappropriate.


What are you talking about?  The BOP displays the traditional phallic Klingon form factor.

The phallic command structure is common on many spacecraft models.  You can even find it in nature: just look at a goose.  It's less like the Klingon BC than the Klingon BC is like the Enterprise.  Did I mention how much I hate the gun barrels?
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Offline Age

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2014, 07:12:19 pm »
I don't care what any one here says I like all of the Classics 1 to 6.I don't the beginning of Generation only seeing the Ent. B.

I do like the BoP like it is not to be confused by the B'rel class which is scout ship.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2014, 02:41:15 am »
The phallic command structure is common on many spacecraft models.  You can even find it in nature: just look at a goose.  It's less like the Klingon BC than the Klingon BC is like the Enterprise.  Did I mention how much I hate the gun barrels?

They both have two balls and a penis.  The Klingons are obviously overcompensating for something.  Maybe that's why those dirty animals are mad all the time.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2014, 04:43:33 am »
They both have two balls and a penis.  The Klingons are obviously overcompensating for something.  Maybe that's why those dirty animals are mad all the time.

I always figured that.  People think that big and macho means having a big piece of meat.  Klingons are extremely violent, so nature would not encourage having a vulnerable appendage of great size.  If you look at the Benobo upside the Chimpanzee, you'll find the Chimps are big and violent, but it's the little Benobo that has the big shlong, and the Benobo is not afraid to use it.

In my musings of a ST series taking place on a Klingon ship, I thought about how Klingons might be disgusted by human sexuality.  With Klingons, mating is not nearly as habitual as it is for humans.  They can't be that good at it, because they often injure their partners.
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Offline Age

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2014, 04:01:11 pm »
That being said Age turned out just fine being 60%human and 40% Klingon.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2014, 01:24:30 pm »
So many of you guys look at a D7 and see a penis.  I see a predatory shark.  Are you guys in the closet or do you  just have some form of penis envy?

:laugh:

That being said Age turned out just fine being 60%human and 40% Klingon.

I told Frankenstein that would work if he couldn't get enough to make it 100% Klingon.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2014, 01:39:10 pm »
They both have two balls and a penis.  The Klingons are obviously overcompensating for something.  Maybe that's why those dirty animals are mad all the time.

I always figured that.  People think that big and macho means having a big piece of meat.  Klingons are extremely violent, so nature would not encourage having a vulnerable appendage of great size.  If you look at the Benobo upside the Chimpanzee, you'll find the Chimps are big and violent, but it's the little Benobo that has the big shlong, and the Benobo is not afraid to use it.

In my musings of a ST series taking place on a Klingon ship, I thought about how Klingons might be disgusted by human sexuality.  With Klingons, mating is not nearly as habitual as it is for humans.  They can't be that good at it, because they often injure their partners.

You are speaking of TNG "Klingons" not the real TOS Klingon.

Exhibit A:   Kor.  Out thought Kirk and Spock.  Was capable of adapting (quicker than Kirk) when the Organians displayed their godlike power.  Cultured, intelligent and capable.

Exhibit B:  Worf.  Growls at Q and repeatedly tries violence against the Organian level (at least!) power of Q.  Can't handle the responsibility of raising his own son.  Uses lines like "If you were any other man I'd . . ." - don't bluster - do it or shut up.  Taken captive how often and not on purpose?  Simply dumb, brutish and incompetent with no understanding of the honour he claims.

TOS Klingons are more like the men of Gondor.  TNG Klingons are Orcs.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2014, 03:03:35 pm »
I've seen very little DS9 and that isn't among those few that I have seen.  Maybe I'll watch it after I finish going through Mythbusters and The A Team. 

Note My prior post starting with Exhibit A was a copy of something I posted long ago. 
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2014, 03:14:46 pm »
Uses lines like "If you were any other man I'd . . ." - don't bluster - do it or shut up.



You mean like this?

A Lucky Shot


Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2014, 03:48:34 pm »
Uses lines like "If you were any other man I'd . . ." - don't bluster - do it or shut up.


You mean like this?


Only for a TNG Klingon.  Can you imagine Kor or Kang or even Koloth acting that way? 
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2014, 04:07:29 pm »
Uses lines like "If you were any other man I'd . . ." - don't bluster - do it or shut up.


You mean like this?


Only for a TNG Klingon.  Can you imagine Kor or Kang or even Koloth acting that way?


I was just replying to your "do it or shut up " comment, but yeah, I could see Kang killing one of his men for screwing up, and maybe even Kor too, although in a more conventional manner of execution. Kor seemed very entrenched in process. Koloth, not so much as he was more bluster than effective due to the delicate nature of the scam they were trying to run with Arne Darvin.

The Klingon in Friday's Child (can't remember his name right off) seemed pretty violently natured though.

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2014, 01:35:52 pm »
So many of you guys look at a D7 and see a penis.  I see a predatory shark.  Are you guys in the closet or do you  just have some form of penis envy?


I see a penis because it looks like a penis.  It has two outward protrusions (balls) at the base, a long neck, and bulbus tip, and a hole in the front of the bulb that stuff shoots out of.  Deep Space Nine even has a scene where a bird of prey docks by having the tip mate against a recessed area in the station's docking ring.


You are speaking of TNG "Klingons" not the real TOS Klingon.

Exhibit A:   Kor.  Out thought Kirk and Spock.  Was capable of adapting (quicker than Kirk) when the Organians displayed their godlike power.  Cultured, intelligent and capable.


Kor did not outthink Kirk and Spock, he outnumbered and outgunned them.  As for being "cultured" he was nothing more than an animal dressed like a man.

Exhibit B:  Worf.  Growls at Q and repeatedly tries violence against the Organian level (at least!) power of Q.  Can't handle the responsibility of raising his own son.  Uses lines like "If you were any other man I'd . . ." - don't bluster - do it or shut up.  Taken captive how often and not on purpose?  Simply dumb, brutish and incompetent with no understanding of the honour he claims.

TOS Klingons are more like the men of Gondor.  TNG Klingons are Orcs.

Worf does express his dislike of Q vocally, but I don't think I ever remember him trying to physically attack him.  As for Worf not taking responsibility for Alexander, part of the problem was that Kaylar spent his early childhood teaching him that Worf's values and traditions were garbage, but I really can't defend him.  And even Martok seemed shocked at how bad their relationship was.

TOS presented the Klingons from the point of view of a people on the verge of all out a partial picture of the animals which made them look more duplicitous and dangerous than they actually were.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2014, 04:04:16 pm »
One thing that has always bothered me about Errand of Mercy was that the Organians were adamant about non-violence enough to try to conceal and protect Kirk and Spock and were obviously aware that their council chambers were bugged, but let Kirk hang himself anyway by revealing himself to the Klingons.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2014, 04:46:02 pm »
TOS Klingons were more sophisticated than the big budget Klingons.  Could you really imagine the movie or TNG Klingons really spying on their superior officers?  TNG goes very deep in showing a feudal system where the Empire is run by great houses.  A Governor like Kor would be an aristocrat.  Yes, the Klinks as brutal savages, but so were the counts and dukes of Medieval Europe.  The Klingons from the 1960's wasn't so much of a feudal system as a system of complete repression, where everybody spied on everybody else.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2014, 03:10:50 pm »
I see a penis because it looks like a penis.  It has two outward protrusions (balls) at the base, a long neck, and bulbus tip, and a hole in the front of the bulb that stuff shoots out of.  Deep Space Nine even has a scene where a bird of prey docks by having the tip mate against a recessed area in the station's docking ring.

Sorry Knightstorm but if your penis is shaped like that you are deformed.  If you asked your girlfriend/wife to use a D7 or Bird of Prey model as a dildo I doubt you would be able to get her to try it due to the shape being wrong.


Kor did not outthink Kirk and Spock, he outnumbered and outgunned them.  As for being "cultured" he was nothing more than an animal dressed like a man.

Kor bugged the council room.  Kirk spoke there of his plans.  Kor understood Kirks limitations and used those against him.  Kirk did not anticipate Kors counter strikes.  Kor did the out thinking.

Worf does express his dislike of Q vocally, but I don't think I ever remember him trying to physically attack him.  As for Worf not taking responsibility for Alexander, part of the problem was that Kaylar spent his early childhood teaching him that Worf's values and traditions were garbage, but I really can't defend him.  And even Martok seemed shocked at how bad their relationship was.

Worf growls at Q. 

Of course  K'Ehleyr taught Alexander truth not Worfs fantasies.  Kaylar was the only TNG Klingon worthy of the name Klingon. 

As I once said:
Quote
To me only one Klingon in TNG was cut from the same mold as Kor, Kang and Koloth.

K'Ehleyr and she is half human.  Only she fulfilled her duty with no regard for consequences to herself.   Worf constantly tried to beg off duties.  She travelled in a PROBE because that is what her duty required, Worf complained about 0 g even though he was going to fight the Borg.  She turned down a ship and a council seat that were offered to her as bribes.  True Klingon not a TNG Klingon.  Like a true TOS Klingon she did not respect the Klingons of the TNG era or their traditions.

Can you imagine how Kor or Kang would have handled Q?  With Worf's brute force and growling?  I think not.  Q would not have called one of them "micro brain".

TOS presented the Klingons from the point of view of a people on the verge of all out a partial picture of the animals which made them look more duplicitous and dangerous than they actually were.

Kor was calm cool and collected not on the verge.

Another quote from the past:
Quote
TOS Klingons:
Created our own technologies.
Kor defeated Kirk.
Kang took Kirk's ship.
The Romulans were our client state and bought our ships.
To fight us the Federation needed a Kirk
Squashed tribbles as the vermin they are.  One does not war on vermin one stamps them out.  There is no glory in killing tribbles.

The TNG so called Klingons:
Use Romulan technologies.   (cloaks and Birds of Prey)
Use Federation technologies (photon torpedoes)
Have no culture and must steal one from the Earthers (Hamlet)
They hide their so called war ships with cloaks unless they can attack en masse.
They are a client state to the Federation.
They had to have a human choose their chancellor.
Rather than condemn a powerful traitor and face the consequences they chose instead to condemn a weak but innocent warrior.
When two WOMEN rebelled they needed the Federation again to save them from the Rebels and their Romulan weaponeers.
Use the phrase "if you were any other man I'd..."  Do it or don't - bluster is not the warrior way.
To control them the Federation only needs a Picard.
Celebrate the Great tribble hunt as a glorious victory.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2014, 03:34:45 pm »
In Hide and Q Picard had to stop Worf from physically attacking Q. 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
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Offline Lieutenant_Q

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2014, 03:20:34 pm »
A lot of the perceived differences between TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons is the fact that we are comparing Kor, Kang and Koloth to Worf and Krudge.

1. Worf was raised by humans and their perception of Klingon culture.  Even after he was re-introduced to Klingon Culture he still was colored by Human perceptions.

2. Krudge was simply insane, driven mad by his pursuit of the Genesis Device.

Klingons held a technological edge over the Federation and the Pre-Federation races until the 23rd Century.  The rapid technological advancement of the Federation forced the Klingons to adapt, they acquired the Cloaking Device from the Romulans in exchange for advanced Warp Drive Technology.  This also forced them to change their tactics, as their principle enemy, the Federation had not only reached the Klingon Tech Level, but surpassed it.  Gone were the days of using superior ships and tactics to outmaneuver and pummel their enemies into submission. Adapt or Die.

Shakespeare... yeah... I'm not going to touch that one... that was just stupid... I'd really like to know what they were thinking with that one... "You have not read Shakespeare until you've read it in the original Klingon."??!  WTF?!

Honestly, the whole Duras incident is more akin to Kor.  Duras had the political clout to label Mogh as the traitor, and the Duras sisters used that clout to start the civil war.
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2014, 04:23:47 pm »
TOS Klingons are an organized Empire with a strong central authority. 

TNG Klingons are "tribal" organized (to the extent they are) into Houses that spend more time backstabbing each other than building the Empire.  They use outsiders to choose their chancellors and fund/equip/fight their civil wars.  Could you imagine Kor bringing in Kirk to stop their civil war or choose a new ruler for them? 

If the TNG Klingons seen on screen are "typical" of the bred then non of them would do research or design and build ships as it would be "beneath them" to do such non violent things.  No wonder they use Romulan designed vessels and cloaks.

Kangs wife was his science officer. 
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2014, 05:02:41 pm »
There is no such ship as a Romulan Bird of Prey.

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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2014, 05:40:26 pm »
I don't give a damn what they say. That's a warbird.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2014, 07:56:18 pm »
The "Klingon" Bird of Prey first appeared in ST III.  I think that I read it in this forum that the original script had the ship being a stolen Romulan vessel.  As this didn't carry the plot forward, the concept was eliminated, but the model was built with a very different look from the T'Kinga.  My impression of the model was a number of spherical sections arranged almost haphazzardly, with a pair of unispired slab wings, and a couple of 37mm gun pods borrowed from a model of a Ju-87.  The green paint really drove the last impression home.

After better than 2 decades, I remember having conversations where everybody found that calling a Klingon ship a "Bird of Prey" was inconsistant, because the Romulans were identified with the bird motif.   I wasn't the only one who thought it looked cheesy.  I used to really hate that model, but now, it merely annoys me.

Hopefully, when CBS renews the series, they'll go ahead with some consistant ship evolution and more subtle special effects.
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2014, 04:11:42 pm »

Sorry Knightstorm but if your penis is shaped like that you are deformed.  If you asked your girlfriend/wife to use a D7 or Bird of Prey model as a dildo I doubt you would be able to get her to try it due to the shape being wrong.


Looks more like a penis than it does like a shark



Kor bugged the council room.  Kirk spoke there of his plans.  Kor understood Kirks limitations and used those against him.  Kirk did not anticipate Kors counter strikes.  Kor did the out thinking.



Which he was able to do because he outgunned and outnumbered Kirk.  Like the rest of those dirty beasts, Kor was well equipped to brutalize people who were unable to fight back on an equal footing.





As I once said:
Quote
To me only one Klingon in TNG was cut from the same mold as Kor, Kang and Koloth.

K'Ehleyr and she is half human.  Only she fulfilled her duty with no regard for consequences to herself.   Worf constantly tried to beg off duties.  She travelled in a PROBE because that is what her duty required, Worf complained about 0 g even though he was going to fight the Borg.  She turned down a ship and a council seat that were offered to her as bribes.  True Klingon not a TNG Klingon.  Like a true TOS Klingon she did not respect the Klingons of the TNG era or their traditions.

Can you imagine how Kor or Kang would have handled Q?  With Worf's brute force and growling?  I think not.  Q would not have called one of them "micro brain".



Worf didn't refuse his duty in first contact.  Picard asked him what he remembered of his zero-G combat training from the academy, and Worf mentioned that he remembered it making him sick to his stomach.  Kor, Kang, and Kolath would have behaved the same way because they would have been just as frustrated at being in that sort of helpless situation as Worf was.

Kor was calm cool and collected not on the verge.


Kor ordered mass murder


Another quote from the past:
Quote
TOS Klingons:
Created our own technologies.
Kor defeated Kirk.
Kang took Kirk's ship.
The Romulans were our client state and bought our ships.
To fight us the Federation needed a Kirk
Squashed tribbles as the vermin they are.  One does not war on vermin one stamps them out.  There is no glory in killing tribbles.

The TNG so called Klingons:
Use Romulan technologies.   (cloaks and Birds of Prey)
Use Federation technologies (photon torpedoes)
Have no culture and must steal one from the Earthers (Hamlet)
They hide their so called war ships with cloaks unless they can attack en masse.
They are a client state to the Federation.
They had to have a human choose their chancellor.
Rather than condemn a powerful traitor and face the consequences they chose instead to condemn a weak but innocent warrior.
When two WOMEN rebelled they needed the Federation again to save them from the Rebels and their Romulan weaponeers.
Use the phrase "if you were any other man I'd..."  Do it or don't - bluster is not the warrior way.
To control them the Federation only needs a Picard.
Celebrate the Great tribble hunt as a glorious victory

And as I've said before and I'll say again, Klingon space travel is proof that if you put enough chimps in a room with typewriters with enough time you'll eventually have the complete works of Shakespeare.  Kang was able to take the Enterprise because the flashing thing trapped most of the crew below decks, and turned all of the phasers into swords.  The Klingons exchanged technology with the Romulans.  The Romulans got more advanced weapons, the Klingons got cloaks.  Also, its been fairly well established that Klingon honor only applies to dealings with other Klingons, and while those animals will whine like b*tches about how dishonorable other races are, they're more than willing to use underhanded methods themselves.  Picard choosing the chancellor was a political decision of the dying chancellor who did not know who had poisoned him, and needed to make sure that a party not beholden to his murderer would choose his successor.

TOS Klingons are an organized Empire with a strong central authority. 

TNG Klingons are "tribal" organized (to the extent they are) into Houses that spend more time backstabbing each other than building the Empire.  They use outsiders to choose their chancellors and fund/equip/fight their civil wars.  Could you imagine Kor bringing in Kirk to stop their civil war or choose a new ruler for them? 
 

TOS doesn't give any indication how Klingons rule themselves, only how they oppress their subjects.  The few episodes which show it indicate that that aspect of the Klingons remained unchanged in the succeeding century.


Kangs wife was his science officer. 

They would still need a science officer even if it is viewed as an undesirable position.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 05:11:38 pm by knightstorm »

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2014, 04:44:11 pm »
Wow knightstorm, all this vitriol for a made up race on a sci-fi show. Is being a vehement anti-klingite considered hate speech?  :soap:

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Box office numbers for the Star Trek movies
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2014, 05:17:23 pm »
Wow knightstorm, all this vitriol for a made up race on a sci-fi show. Is being a vehement anti-klingite considered hate speech?  :soap:

Its not hate speech if they really are a dirty gutter race.