Topic: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?  (Read 13176 times)

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Offline Diilicious

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Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« on: August 14, 2014, 02:56:12 pm »
another question that has bugged me since i was a small child playing the very first game all those moons ago is. "Can the photon torpedo accuracy be improved?"

throughout my long love hate relationship with the two games Orion pirates and the original star trek star fleet command game i have been asking myself "why do they never hit???" missiles seem to be the only way to go with the federation because the photon acuraccy is so totally dreadful.

is there a way to do this? :)

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 03:25:34 pm »
They were already improved. You give me the impression that you have never seen the To Hit chart and maybe don't use ECCM?

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 03:49:49 pm »
Fire at closer range. 

keep in mind a range of 1 represents 10,000 KM.  50% chance at range 8 (80,000 KM).

Or hire a Russian weapons officer.  And Andorian can do if no Russians are available.
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 03:51:14 pm »
Here's the chart. For accuracy at long range use Proximity Fuse, but you get less damage.



Photon Torpedo:

NOTE: Photon Torpedoes fired at range 0-1 will do feedback damage equal to 1/4 the warhead strength to the shield facing your target.


Range:__ ___0-1______2______3-4_____5-8_____9-12_____13-30_____31-55_

Normal
To Hit:_ ___100%____83%____67%____50%____33%___ __17%______NA _

Damage:_ ___8_______8_______8____ __8_______8________8________NA _

Overload
To Hit:_ ___100%____83%____67%____50%__ __NA_______NA_______NA _

Damage:____16______16______16___ __16______NA___ ___ NA_______NA _

Proximity
To Hit:____ _NA__ ___NA______NA_____NA___ __83%___ __67%____ _33%

Damage:__ _NA____ _NA______NA_____NA_______4________4________4__


Offline Diilicious

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 04:52:24 pm »
They were already improved. You give me the impression that you have never seen the To Hit chart and maybe don't use ECCM?

well as i say, ive been playing these games in my own little bubble in my room for more than a decade.

ive actually never used ECM or ECCM and havent ever understood what it was about. :S

ive never seen anything about the game that isnt in the game until like last week when i got fed up of the 'cost of living' in the game (repairs etc) during single player.

Offline Age

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 05:51:24 pm »
It all depends on who you are firing against vs plasma fire at range 20+.They do hit usually on the 4 eg 24.34.44 and 54.STFC 1 is no Different then SFC2 OP.you don't need to use ecm if you are using the lowest difficulty setting but by raising it you do.you need an attack shift of 0 in the green if ai has 4 moints of ecm you use 5 points of eccm to counter it.

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 06:35:43 pm »
ive actually never used ECM or ECCM and havent ever understood what it was about. :S


ECM = Electronic Counter Measures

ECCM = Electronic Counter Counter Measures

Which are just fancy terms for jamming and counter jamming. Having an Electronic Warfare (EW) shift in your favor helps you hit and/or not get hit. I won't go into specifics since it is all rather complicated, but basically the higher your EW shift when you fire, the more likely it is you will miss the target or do less damage to the target. Different weapons are affected differently by EW. The more power you put into EW (up to a total of six points), the higher your shift can be. The formula is that you get the square root of the amount you put in to calculate your shift, rounding down all fractions, e.g. 4 points put into ECM will give you a defensive shift of 2, assuming no counter jamming. Counter jamming works point for point, so 4 points of ECCM against your ECM will result in a shift of 0. You can see the ECM/ECCM power allocated for your and your opponent's ships by using the EW MFD. To see the Attack Shift look at your Distance/ Weapons info readout at the bottom left of the main screen.

Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 09:38:42 pm »
They were already improved. You give me the impression that you have never seen the To Hit chart and maybe don't use ECCM?

well as i say, ive been playing these games in my own little bubble in my room for more than a decade.

ive actually never used ECM or ECCM and havent ever understood what it was about. :S

ive never seen anything about the game that isnt in the game until like last week when i got fed up of the 'cost of living' in the game (repairs etc) during single player.

It is all in the manual.
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Offline Age

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2014, 05:55:31 pm »
Take a look at this video at the defense shift and attack shift I got my defense shift at 2 and attack at 0.That is how you want it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dYxpo0App_k

Offline knightstorm

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2014, 04:01:55 am »
The best way to ensure that your photons find their mark is to find someone who won't be missed, and sacrifice them in exchange for the good fortune of accurate fire. ;)

Offline DrunkenCabbage

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 05:01:10 pm »
The photon torpedoes in SFC seem really disappointing because they tend to hurtle off into the ether, but that's just for playability: hitting all the time as in the show/films would make it too powerful. The game is also exaggerating the inaccuracy so that you can tell that you have missed, which doesn't apply to phasers because they always hit at variable damage (it does apply to most of the other direct fire weapons). If you keep in mind the extremely high practical scale that it's trying to convey, probably some tens of thousands of kilometres at viable hitting ranges, it's a bit easier to perceive as a carefully upscaled projection of what's really going on. Probably not quite that big actually - I'm remembering SFB, which has 10,000km hexes, minimum warp is speed 1, maximum warp with impulse is 31 (some simple maths shows that even that size is wildly conservative given the speed of light and reasonable turn times); I recall that SFC threw away the "always at warp" concept because it didn't line up with the source material.

On a more practical note, what to fire at what range is a useful concept to have in your head. All weapons have an average damage value which you can work out for a particular range, and a cost to operate - it's useful to fire at a range where the current weapon's damage/cost is high. The cost is both energy and time, and you'll find that by either measure photon torpedoes are significantly less efficient than phaser-1 at desirable combat ranges because the torpedo costs are so high: 2x as much time, 4x as much power. Photon torpedoes do pretty well at range 6+ because that's where phaser-1 starts to fall off, and (proximity photons) continue to do well at ranges 9-12 and fairly well beyond that. So you can snipe with prox photons at long range for a bit of attrition, and standard photons at medium range. In fact, photon torpedoes are also relatively efficient at very short range (1-2), so if you're going to overrun they're good to hold until you're closer.

What's been said about ECCM by various people is very sensible advice and is generally how the computer "cheats". Always be prepared to put a couple of points into ECCM. It is particularly painful with weapons which can miss because a small shift means you miss frequently. I didn't use ECCM for the first several encounters in SFC, despite both reading it in the manual and already knowing about it from SFB, because I just overlooked it as a cost with a very abstract benefit. Big mistake, and a nasty bump in the learning curve.

Missiles (drones in SFB) are of course extremely powerful because they don't miss or degrade - the terminator of munitions. If they'll do the job, you should definitely fire them; however they can be outrun, they are easy to catch in tractor beams, and they're easy to shoot down, so they only produce significant damage against energy-low ships. For everything else they are either a deterrent or a way to cost the enemy energy.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2014, 11:18:41 am »
I seem to remember Photon Torpedoes always missing in ST, until you go to point blank range.  Then, I do remember the episode where they go to Organia, they completely destroyed a Klingon BC with a lucky hit.  My problem with SFB, and thus SFC is that the torpedoes weren't powerful enough.  At point blank, after investing 4 points of energy, you can do 8 points of damage with a photon torpedo.  At the price of one energy, you can do 9 points of damage with a Phaser I.  Were I to come up with my own ruleset, Photon Torpedoes would be real ship-killers, with Heavy Distruptors delivering serious damage somewhat more reliably.
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2014, 12:26:20 pm »
I seem to remember Photon Torpedoes always missing in ST, until you go to point blank range.  Then, I do remember the episode where they go to Organia, they completely destroyed a Klingon BC with a lucky hit.  My problem with SFB, and thus SFC is that the torpedoes weren't powerful enough.  At point blank, after investing 4 points of energy, you can do 8 points of damage with a photon torpedo.  At the price of one energy, you can do 9 points of damage with a Phaser I.  Were I to come up with my own ruleset, Photon Torpedoes would be real ship-killers, with Heavy Distruptors delivering serious damage somewhat more reliably.

In SFB heavy weapons are devastating. SFC has "double internals" due to the stun effect. They found that games didn't last long w/o them that way. It was a big turn off in a video game. It takes hours to line up a killer shot in SFB, unless your opponent flies up to you and says "kill me!", which is exactly what happens in a video game since no one wants to see little explosions from far away. Phasers are supposed to be your main weapon. You might do 9 pts. at short range, then again you might not. Heavies are costly, but played correctly by manipulating your charge rate and distance are the things that keep people at arms length in SFB.

Offline FPF-Tobin Dax

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2014, 01:36:40 pm »
I seem to remember Photon Torpedoes always missing in ST, until you go to point blank range.  Then, I do remember the episode where they go to Organia, they completely destroyed a Klingon BC with a lucky hit.  My problem with SFB, and thus SFC is that the torpedoes weren't powerful enough.  At point blank, after investing 4 points of energy, you can do 8 points of damage with a photon torpedo.  At the price of one energy, you can do 9 points of damage with a Phaser I.  Were I to come up with my own ruleset, Photon Torpedoes would be real ship-killers, with Heavy Distruptors delivering serious damage somewhat more reliably.

Proximity Phasers. Kirk calls out for phasers.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 01:55:44 pm by FPF-Tobin Dax »
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2014, 03:40:33 pm »
I think a part of it is also the fact that Feds in SFB/SFC seem to be geared towards multiship encounters, with their fighting power increasing exponentially.  This is especially true with the proxy bonus.  With most pilots, a single fed cruiser is nothing more than a nuisance, but if they can coordinate with each other, multiple feds can really mess you up.

Offline Age

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2014, 07:40:41 pm »
They hardly miss if you know your ranges and it is far better to use torps.You have only a limited supply of missiles and if the get wasted by PD or weasel then you just wasted them all.When in close range always use overloaders except vs plasma races unless you are Diehard or Pestalence.

There was never a limit on heavies in SFC like missiles other Trek games have this which might of been a good thing.

Tobin.When id he say that episode?

Offline Corbomite

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2014, 09:29:39 pm »
Unfortunately, that episode is in the gray area when they were using the (eventual) photon effect, but still calling them phasers. The way Kirk describes their use (dispersal patterns and proximity fuses) during this time does not indicate a beam style weapon and most people assume they really meant photons (when in reality photons hadn't been imagined yet).

Offline Age

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 08:04:23 pm »
@ DrunkenCabbage.

What SFC game are you playing if 1 and 2 you need more experience with Fed photon ships?I got it right away.

Offline Tulwar

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 01:34:38 pm »
I think a part of it is also the fact that Feds in SFB/SFC seem to be geared towards multiship encounters, with their fighting power increasing exponentially.  This is especially true with the proxy bonus.  With most pilots, a single fed cruiser is nothing more than a nuisance, but if they can coordinate with each other, multiple feds can really mess you up.

Back in WWII, in the Battle off Samar, an American Destroyer, the USS Johnson, fired ten 21" torpedoes at the superior Japanese fleet.  Only one torpedo hit, but it litterally blew the bow off of the Kumano, a heavy cruiser.  A modern US Navy torpedo of similar size would have exploded beneath the center of the ship, lifting it out of the water, consequently breaking the hull in half.

Had photon torpedoes been this effective in SFB, when I played with my high school friends, we might have finished a large fleet engagement.  As it was, large fleet engagements, with fighters, PF's, and drones were simply not playable.  As for SFC, where all engagements are mano e mano, a long, dragged out engagement is actually preferable.

I also like "Killer Torpedoes" for dramatic effect on film.  In the later Star Treks, especially Voyager, ships got into prolonged engagements and absorbed hit after hit, with sparks and alarms going off, and somebody yelling, "Shields down to 70%!"  Pardon me whilst I yawn....

In Babylon 5, they did something very different.  When spaceships fired their weapons, something bad happened.  The first time a Shadow appeared and started on the Narn fleet, there were no shields.  The purple beam licked out and cut ships in half.  At that point, when any character threatened to fire a weapon at anybody, that threat had to be taken seriously.  Now that's drama!
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Offline knightstorm

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Re: Improving Photon torpedo accuracy?
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2014, 05:09:57 pm »
I think a part of it is also the fact that Feds in SFB/SFC seem to be geared towards multiship encounters, with their fighting power increasing exponentially.  This is especially true with the proxy bonus.  With most pilots, a single fed cruiser is nothing more than a nuisance, but if they can coordinate with each other, multiple feds can really mess you up.



Had photon torpedoes been this effective in SFB, when I played with my high school friends, we might have finished a large fleet engagement.  As it was, large fleet engagements, with fighters, PF's, and drones were simply not playable.  As for SFC, where all engagements are mano e mano, a long, dragged out engagement is actually preferable.



Well, my own experience playing 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 matches is that if you can get multiple feds, and find pilots who can coordinate (good luck with that). Photons can really mess up an opponent.  I remember one match where Roy and I were fighting against a R-PRA, and F-DNH using a F-DNH and F-DNW.  We used our drones to keep the fed from closing to OL range, and we completely shredded the PRA using proxies.