Topic: ST3 drives itself backwards.  (Read 18358 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Sirgod

  • Whooot Master Cattle Baron
  • Global Moderator
  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 27831
  • Gender: Male
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2014, 12:07:26 pm »
Gonna change the tempo, and say Screw Orci! right in the ear!

www.cinemablend.com/new/Roberto-Orci-Continues-Attack-Star-Trek-Fans-Online-Over-His-Reboot-Choices-68854.html

Stop blaming BR (Bad Robot) [for the idea to reset the timeline]. It was my idea so that you would not know what was gonna happen next. Nothing more or less. I Stand behind it. And it, again, is the reason why I make movies and you donít.  ~Orci.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/01/star-trek-is-broken-here-are-ideas-on-how-to-fix-it/

It's official, we now have Trolls making movies.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12877
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2014, 12:19:16 pm »
There are lots of ways to keep the fans from knowing what is coming next.  I've suggested some right here.  They could have ended Voyager for example with the ship going down on a 20th century level planet and when someone complained how they would never get home the new captain could have said "If we can't get to the Federation we will build another one here".  Follow that into a new future. 

If you don't want to do Trek DON'T.  Make your own universe or adopt another one more to your taste. Don't pretend to do Trek then bitch at fans who object to your butchery of anothers work. 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline knightstorm

  • His Imperial Highness, Norton II, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2104
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2014, 02:42:20 pm »
Gonna change the tempo, and say Screw Orci! right in the ear!

www.cinemablend.com/new/Roberto-Orci-Continues-Attack-Star-Trek-Fans-Online-Over-His-Reboot-Choices-68854.html

Stop blaming BR (Bad Robot) [for the idea to reset the timeline]. It was my idea so that you would not know what was gonna happen next. Nothing more or less. I Stand behind it. And it, again, is the reason why I make movies and you donít.  ~Orci.

http://trekmovie.com/2013/09/01/star-trek-is-broken-here-are-ideas-on-how-to-fix-it/

It's official, we now have Trolls making movies.

Stephen


Which is why in addition to boycotting Abrams, I've made it a point to also avoid films if I know that Orci is the screenwriter.

Offline Sirgod

  • Whooot Master Cattle Baron
  • Global Moderator
  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 27831
  • Gender: Male
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2014, 03:18:42 pm »
Indeed knightstorm. I read through the comments and was shocked at how many Orci supporters there where, let alone, those who love the new trek.

Don't get me wrong, I watched them, laughed here and there , but it was not Trek.

I thought B&B where bad, and praised Mani Cotto, but this Orci guy is really ticking me off.
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Corbomite

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2939
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2014, 03:26:45 pm »
His attitude basically seems to be "I get paid a lot of money, therefore I must be right!". There are plenty of movies that make a lot of cash and still suck. I didn't see the Academy Awards (or any other respectable award presenters) lavishing praise on his "masterpieces". At least Peter Jackson mangaged to get some love for a genre that is consistantly nixed from the running at every turn, but they wised up and his second grand opus has been (so far) mostly ignored except for the obligatory visual effects categories and the like (and rightly so).

Offline knightstorm

  • His Imperial Highness, Norton II, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2104
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2014, 10:07:44 pm »
Indeed knightstorm. I read through the comments and was shocked at how many Orci supporters there where, let alone, those who love the new trek.

Don't get me wrong, I watched them, laughed here and there , but it was not Trek.

I thought B&B where bad, and praised Mani Cotto, but this Orci guy is really ticking me off.

Well Berman oversaw what was probably the best decade in the franchises history.  As for Orci trying to give Abrams a pass.  Orci wouldn't have been able to sell that POS to the studio on his own.  He needed Abrams to push that cr*p.

Offline Tulwar

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1328
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2014, 06:19:17 pm »

If you don't want to do Trek DON'T.  Make your own universe or adopt another one more to your taste. Don't pretend to do Trek then bitch at fans who object to your butchery of anothers work.

Exactly.  If Abrams, Orchi, and company were into Trek, and wanted to redo everything, then they would have come up with something that didn't suck.  They might not have done it the way I would have done it, but it would have been would have engendered something other than scorn.

The reason they diserve scorn is that these movies are simply an ugly take on the story setting.  The command crew of the Enterprise cannot be taken seriously on an level, no matter how forgiving and non-military your background.  The new Enterprise and sets look less realistic than those of TOS.  Blowing up planet Vulcan has to be the epitome of ugliness.

How can anybody pay attention to how well the scenes flow the next, and how well crafted the film is, went they are assailed with ugly images and an ugly story?
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline EschelonOfJudgemnt

  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 259
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2014, 06:41:28 pm »
I vote for the Dallas/Bob Newhart ending. 

Make sure that whichever director worth their salt that takes on the ST franchise after presumably another failed attempt at ST3 starts out the 'back to basics' franchise with someone awakening from a bad dream...

;D

Was pretty awesome how Craig Ferguson borrowed that for his last night at the helm of The Late Late Show...
 :D

The new guy might do OK, but based on the quotes I've seen from ya'll, yeah he needs to move on NOW!

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12877
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2014, 08:45:37 pm »
Exactly.  If Abrams, Orchi, and company were into Trek, and wanted to redo everything, then they would have come up with something that didn't suck.  They might not have done it the way I would have done it, but it would have been would have engendered something other than scorn.

The reason they diserve scorn is that these movies are simply an ugly take on the story setting.  The command crew of the Enterprise cannot be taken seriously on an level, no matter how forgiving and non-military your background.  The new Enterprise and sets look less realistic than those of TOS.  Blowing up planet Vulcan has to be the epitome of ugliness.

How can anybody pay attention to how well the scenes flow the next, and how well crafted the film is, went they are assailed with ugly images and an ugly story?

Last summer I read the novel Fuzzy Nation.  It is a rewrite of the 1960s novel Little Fuzzy.  The novel can definitely use updating (and the setting would make an excellent Trek competitor) but he decide to "make it his".  The main character in both is Jack Holloway in the original he is elderly (at least late 60s more likely 70s or 80s) a prospector who has kicked around many new planets over his working life.  A good guy to his friends but still a lethally fast and accurate draw with his gun (a thief who tried to rob him before the novel started was considered by the judge to have committed suicide).    In the remake he is in his 30s a disbarred lawyer and not someone you would want as a friend (he was disbarred for purposefully for a large payoff causing a real scum bag client to get a mistrial).  The whole story is twisted away from the original that way.  Needless to say I'm not really inclined to read more of his works and dislike seeing one blogger suggest him as a writer for a "truer" Trek sequel.   :puke: (John Scalzi)

Like Abrams he doesn't treat with respect the creation which he wants to ride on the shirt tails of and therefore from me at least he gets no respect either.  Like with the new Trek I WANTED to like it.  But like the new Trek it isn't what it claims to be.  Scalzi Like Abrams (and B&B) need to treat the work with respect or create their own. 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12877
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2014, 08:48:49 pm »
I vote for the Dallas/Bob Newhart ending. 

Make sure that whichever director worth their salt that takes on the ST franchise after presumably another failed attempt at ST3 starts out the 'back to basics' franchise with someone awakening from a bad dream...

;D

Was pretty awesome how Craig Ferguson borrowed that for his last night at the helm of The Late Late Show...
 :D

The new guy might do OK, but based on the quotes I've seen from ya'll, yeah he needs to move on NOW!

Barclay leaving the Holodeck slams the control panel and says "Still malfunctioning" and then tries once more to repair it. 
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Sirgod

  • Whooot Master Cattle Baron
  • Global Moderator
  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 27831
  • Gender: Male
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2014, 11:49:07 am »
LOL, that is awesome, between Newhart and Barclay.

 Here's the rub though. I love those old Buster Crabbe, Flash Gordon serials. Right now, I'm even watching the later versions made in Germany , and starring Steve Holland. the thing is, they get it . No rewrite of the character, just new actors and actresses , continuing the adventures of Flash, Dale, and Dr. Zarkov, with filming done in West Berlin.

It was still good stuff.

The point is, if they would have done this , with the actors here, and I do like many of them, then I think we would have been a lot happier with the movies. Continue the stories, Sure, some back ground is cool and all, and having the back ground story is fine, but there is a whole Galaxy out there. Capt. Quantum showed us this, so why the need to base both movies around Earth.

Get them out there on that five year mission, with no black holes, no red matter, no time /Dimension BS, and have them boldly going forward blah blah blah.
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline EschelonOfJudgemnt

  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 259
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2014, 03:01:00 pm »
Sirgod's comment had a thought pop into my head, that is that we really don't know a lot of the backstory of the various characters, when you think about it.

Kirk we probably learned the most about in the original series (he has siblings, some snippets of his early career, etc.), but even then a lot is left to the imagination.

So rather than reinventing the wheel, you can leave the wheel alone and tackle the fertile ground.

A really good example of the fertile ground from the original series is Amok Time.  In this episode, we learn Spock has a wife, about Ponn Farr, and we get a glimpse into Vulcan culture.  Yeah, there is a LOT of leftover untapped potential, even in TOS. 

A thought might be to follow Scotty's early career, and his path to the Enterprise.  Other characters could be addressed as well.  Really, you could follow multiple backstories simultaneously (not too many though, otherwise it just gets disjointed) and end these arcs with their assignment to the Enterprise.

Lots of conflicts happened before TOS, and I'm sure several characters had interesting careers that 'earned' them a spot on the Enterprise.

In fact, Axanar jumped right into this fertile ground, and I applaud them for it!  Amazing what a couple of quick lines about Captain Garth's backstory as mentioned in TOS can be developed into...

Several fan made series continue to explore the TOS setting (as well as a couple of others), which is even more proof of the untapped potential.


I suppose we could boycott the current ST franchise, but we saw how that worked out with Battlestar Galactica.  Fortunately, the writers for the reimagined BG actually did a pretty good job going their own route, and I continue to love how they (mostly) didn't ignore Newton when mapping out the CG space stuff.   BG made flip & burn look awesome!  (So did Babylon 5 - I have fond memories of the Star Furies in action).

Sure the sweeping turns we see in Star Trek look cool, but if I was going to make one change to the franchise going forward, that'd be putting Newton back in the driver's seat.  We've had at least two major franchises now that have kept Newtonian movement at the heart of their space battles (Babylon 5 being the second).

But I digress.  At the very least, if enough fans could beat Paramount over the head with a petition saying 'we want the old Trek back - new actors are fine but stay true to the original please!' maaaaybe the bean counters might take notice.  Myself, I'm hopeful that Axanar gets a full release, does well, and THEN the powers that be take notice...

Offline Nemesis

  • Captain Kayn
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12877
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2014, 03:23:02 pm »
Commodore Mendez leaves the simulator: Mendez to Kirk. 

Kirk:  Yes sir?

Commodore Mendez leaves the simulator:  Get your damn hacks out of the simulator NOW Cadet.
Do unto others as Frey has done unto you.
Seti Team    Free Software
I believe truth and principle do matter. If you have to sacrifice them to get the results you want, then the results aren't worth it.
 FoaS_XC : "Take great pains to distinguish a criticism vs. an attack. A person reading a post should never be able to confuse the two."

Offline Sirgod

  • Whooot Master Cattle Baron
  • Global Moderator
  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 27831
  • Gender: Male
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2014, 03:47:00 pm »
Damn EoJ, if only we could get paramount to read that. Good stuff old friend.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline knightstorm

  • His Imperial Highness, Norton II, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2104
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2014, 05:06:27 pm »
Before Abrams took over, the plan was to do a film about the beginning of the Romulan war.  I'd still like to see that.

Offline Corbomite

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2939
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2014, 05:10:00 pm »
They should do the Captain Pike years as a TV/Web series.

Offline Tulwar

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1328
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2014, 10:07:43 pm »
I think that ST has had so many fingers in it that everything feels very forced as it is.  Prequils exaservate that problem, leaving no room to suspend disbelief.  That's what happens when you as the audience to swallow one convention too many.  About the only thing that Abrams and Co. got right is that ST should start over with a clean slate.  Unfortunately, to that crew, that didn't mean making something more solid to build on.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Offline Don Karnage

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2327
  • Gender: Male
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2014, 12:57:47 pm »
A Star Trek Enterprise movie would have been interesting. But with what they did with the last episode, I just don't want to think about it.  :knuppel2:

Offline Sirgod

  • Whooot Master Cattle Baron
  • Global Moderator
  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 27831
  • Gender: Male
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2014, 05:43:23 pm »
there is a ton of books out there, that I would love to see on the big screen also. Many of them tell better stories than even some of the older movies.

Stephen
"You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth - and the amusing thing about it is that they are."- Father Kevin Keaney, Chaplain, Korean War

Offline Tulwar

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1328
Re: ST3 drives itself backwards.
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2014, 10:09:56 pm »
there is a ton of books out there, that I would love to see on the big screen also. Many of them tell better stories than even some of the older movies.

Stephen

Why in the crap have the screenwriters never used this source of plot material?  None of the ST movies were very good.  Worse, they indroduced broken ideas into the ST universe.  Books are usually well thought out, and stay within the limits of the story setting.

The problem is that movies are not created to please the fan base.  Like just about everything else in the world, movie-making is a game for very rich men.  Half the time, a movie is just an excuse to try a new lighting arrangement.  Bond movies were not about adapting the old novels to modern times as much as the producers filming stunt men who had come up with a good act.  Scripts are usually written just to set up a shot.

What most of us want is somebody to use film to tell a story.  The people who can get ahold of the capital to make movies are interested in something else.
Cannon (can' nun) n.  An istrument used to rectify national boundries.  Ambrois Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary