Topic: Moddelors Attention Please

[Bubba91873]

Moderators please sticky this for a few days.

http://www.frost-works.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2194#2194

Please go to this thread at www.Frost-Works.com and fully read the thread by me and Chris Graham and Rob Arnold (www.assimsoft.com).
And vote.

This is a thread for implementing a multi-format model convertor into the community and protecting the model authors rights.

Your opinions matter and we need your imput into this.

[Captain KoraH]

My point of view may not be popular with some, but I make up my mind about this subject based on a LOT of personal experiences. I am a modeler and modder of SFC BTW.

My Personal Opinion
It is arrgant, audacious, conceited, pompous, and ignorant for any maker of BC, SFC or Armada models to think they should have control over how their models are used.

Legal implications
FACT: Any models made specifically for use with the games SFC, BC and Armada by non-contracted, non-authorized, non-employees are not technically legal to distribute. The respective owners of that intellectual property concerning the game title and basic game idea is being infringed upon by anyone who makes unauthorized add-ons or modifications to the game without the express permission of the game manufacturer and owner. NONE of the games' owners mentioned above have given EXPRESS PERMISSION to modify their games in any way. Therefore, making an SFC model (for instance) is technically illegal. The fact that these companies choose to allow and even encourage the making of models and mods DOES NOT imply that they are giving you legal permission to do so. At any time the owners of the SFC title may sue you for making a mod for their game. It is their legal right to do so. Based on this fact, there is no grounds for a model maker or modder to deny anyone the permission to do anything with their product.

Social implications
Any model maker who releases his work to the public free of charge really has no reason to gripe about his model being converted and changed in any way to any extent as long as that person does not SELL the outcome, because his work is considdered FREEWARE and the software and source material he used to make the model is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. On the other hand, if the model maker SELLS his work (which is also illegal) then he would have grounds for control over his property, which unfortunately for him, is not really his in the first place, since the license agreement we all agree to in the install of the games says implicitly that the company who owns the game does not allow use of their registered trademarks without express permission. See the above legal implications regarding this.



Therefore, the fact that the game companies allow us to modify their games in good faith without legal constraints (and that actually benefits them) should not be impinged upon by concieted model makers who find their own time worth more than someone elses, even though they seem to be fine with giving away their work for free...


Captain KoraH

[G_Kane]

you tell them Korah!!!!  

[Bubba91873]

My apoligises, I should have informed u guys first about the registration to this forum at www.frost-works.com.

Chris Graham aka gamerevolt the maker of the assimviewer and founder of www.assimsoft.com wishes to make or help another person who is interested in making a universal model convertor with certain securities.

We wish to have imput for this from moddelors from both A2 and SFC to BC or anyother game format.

We want this to be a tactful and informative debate.No need for hositility.We hope that you register at the forum and give us constructive advice and critisism.

[Captain KoraH]

I appologize for the strong language, but SFC modding and modeling is something that I'm very passionate about, and anything that threatens the creativity of the community such as censorship  the likes of which are being discussed here offends me greatly.  

[anduril]

I guess I fall into that category then.

I would like to think I have some control over what I produce even if it is something as simple as to request a courtesy email asking permission to modify/release work that changes what I have spent my time on.


Sounds strikingly like something Raven was implicating in the background during a minor tiff in the BC forums.
 

[Pataflafla]

I posted there. Some of you might want to take a look. I think it sums up what we're about here when we're at our best.

_________________________


 

[Bubba91873]

We dont wont to implement any kind of censorship.In fact we want to bridge all gaming formats and make modding truly free.

I beleive in the present idea being floated around that this program will be freeware and avalable to all.

And there may be a capability to encrypt your work and not allot it to be modified if you so wished but thats in theory at present.

Please all sfc modders reply and voice your opinion.

Chris Graham has already given the communities plugins and a superb model viewer for us.Now he wants to go the next step and bring to us a truly revoltionary tool.A model convertor to any format within reason.

[Raven Night]

Well, I believe that Korah mirrors the opinions of most with respect to public domain. We encourage the seeking of permissions, but do not lay demands to that respect, because the designs being used are copyrighted by Paramount, and the modeler did not receive specific permission to use thier design to make a model for release, free or for pay.

Now, one point I would like to make, is that selling models is hardly illegal. People sell them all the time. I pay for models that are based on my concepts, and I would like to see some company try to lay copyright on the designs, considering that they came out of my head

EXACT copies of copyrighted material, or models that would violate intellectual laws, would not have rights with respect to restriction of usage. If you design a varient of the Soveriegn for sale, and you do not call it the Soveriegn, you are certainly within your rights to sell it. It can also be said that the name does not have a specific copyright, so you could even sell a version of the original work, as long as it was identical to the original. Imagine if every vehicle manufacturer would have to pay copyright usage to Ford for inventing the automobile! There is a certain level of flexibility here. As long as your practices do not limit profits for the copyright company, they will usually allow it.

..........but they do reserve all rights.

Also remember that there are lots of modding products out there that were not authorized by the original game designers, but are sold for profit anyway. Quake editors in particular spawned sales of the game long after the released version lost its luster, increasing total sales for ID.

I think that a cross program is a good idea for model making. We are already developing a product for that, a version of Milkshape that will import Armada, BC, SFC and KA models for alterations. The program is open source, and will have to be reviewed by Chumblasoft before release.

Companies recognize that modding increases sales, and keeps the programs popular, opening the way to new version releases for profit that are not as dependant on market fluctuations.

 

[Lord Schtupp]

 
 Pounding the world like a battering ram
Forging the furnace for the final grand slam
Chopping away at the source soon the course will be done
Leaving a trail of destruction that's second to none

Hammering anvils straining muscle and might
Shattering blows crashing browbeating fright
Fast devastating and desolisating the curse
Blasting the cannons of truth through each man of this earth

Wielding the axe comes the one culmination
That's always seemed certain to bring down the curtain on greed

Sifting the good from the bad it's the age for the rage
Of the dogs which must fall to the just and be free

Now grate for the vandals who trampled and sampled
Till this place conditioned brought forth demolition to war

The slipping and sliding corrosive subsiding
That withered and wained till the world seemed all drained fills the bay
 

 

[James Formo]

yawn

[Gowdy]

No kinding.

Just give a sleeping pill.   That'll probably work faster.  

[Lord Schtupp]

Thats the best that you can offer? Im so dissapointed...  

[James Formo]

Quote:
Thats the best that you can offer? Im so dissapointed...    

I  wasn't yawning cause of your poem btw- I actually quite like it though I am not sure what it means. Poems are like that

[Lord Schtupp]

lol JF its ok - I wouldnt hold a bad opinion of you if you crossed me, unlike some others here that would.

We were asked for an opinion and thats how I felt about the contents of this thread. I leave the interpetation up to the reader....

[Bubba91873]

This convertor which is in beta stages, isnt meant to rip anyone off.It being worked on with securities in mind.
It will allow people who do not have access to expensive programs like 3ds max or paint programs to port models to other game formats.
This means that old models will not die and there will be a much larger selection of models to use once this becomes reality.
Armada, SFC, BC are currently being supported.More will be added once texture handling has been taken care of.

Chris Graham aka gamerevolt and Rob Arnold of www.assimsoft.com that brought us other goodies deserve our support.

[Khalee]

Well then I wish you guys luck with your converter. But if your wanting programing help Im no programer, and barely a modeler, as it takes me a month sometimes to get one done.

But again good luck on your program.

 

[anduril]

Evidently there are people who don't believe that the modelers have any rights to their work.  Even something as simple as taking no for an answer when they ask if it can be modified and released.  Which would be considered a courtesy.  Using copywrites as an excuse, or saying a game company is doing everybody a favor by not going after them when they make models or mods that enhance a game and may ultimately enhance the sales of the game is about the lamest excuse I've heard on this subject.  If you go by the reasoning that it's freeware if a model has been released to the public then once a company has released a sdk it becomes freeware and modding a game is openly allowed.  They have the option of not releasing a sdk.  Which of course generally leads to a very short shelf live and or attention span by it's fans.   Raven brought up Quake.  Do you think many people would be playing quake 3 any more if it wasn't modable and ID didn't release the tools necessary?  It's just about the only game I play and it's been out quite a while.

Going by some of the responses there are people who would be reckless with this tool.  I personally would release it to a few and then expand the circle of people as time goes on.  

And what a wonderful product to get more attention to frostworks and their projects.

[Captain KoraH]

First, any product that includes the name Star Trek, or any other copyrighted Paramount words, is not legal to change or even make out of ideas in your head. Just because the idea for a new star trek ship came out of your head, doesn't mean it's not infringing upon the Star Trek copyright. That idea is simply ludicrous. Let me tell you that people get sued in civil court all the time for marketing something that is "too similar" to something that's already copyrighted. If you need concrete proof that my belief in this area is true, then look no further than the readme file included in almost every fan made SFC model. It will include a lot of nicely worded disclaimers that are intended to shield the maker from attack by Paramount. No matter how many people disagree that they eat oats, if they all eat oats, then the one guy who says "You eat oats"  is right and everyone else is wrong. So no matter how many of you say "making star trek content is not illegal", it still is illegal. The fact that nobody is breaking down your door to put you in handcuffs does not make it legal. Lets grow up now, ok?

That said,  

My personal opinion differs from some, in that I do not believe any maker of SFC, BC or Armada type ship models has the right to make them, and then tell anyone they cannot be changed in any way. It's hipocritical and concieted in my opinion, to take a game that says "please modify me to suit you" and make a mod/model that nobody is allowed to change. The modelers would not have been allowed to make the model in the first place if the game company had taken that stance. The game company Is saying "please come modify the game, maybe it will sell longer" and that's a great way for game companies to be. But for a modeler or mod maker to place restrictions on their work... they don't mind warping someone eleses' material, but nobody should touch theirs? WTF? Who in their right mind would stand up for that kind of hipocracy?

I'm not trying to start any arguments, and I want to make it clear that this project is really a step forward for the community in my opinion. It has long been the dream of many to take models from one game and put them into another. But the censorship part I do not like at all. I hope I'm making it clear that this part of the project has not been thought out enough, and that reason be allowed to prevail over selfishness.  

[Lord Schtupp]

So what we (Real Modelers) are doing is illegal then huh? Making models for SFC and offering them for download is illegal - that is what you are saying, right?


Just wanted to know...