Topic: Fate of the Valdore (Read 21543 times)

Tremok · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2003, 10:40:48 pm »

This is interesting. I just read a quote from John Eaves that he intended that the Scimitar looked descended from the Valdore. Hmm...

Tremok · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2003, 10:50:47 pm »

Must've been some recessive traits.

The influence of the Remans, no doubt.

But I actually I think both ships are very good looking. The Valdore, being very sleek and graceful, and the Scimitar, having a dark beauty around it.

I simply find it interesting that the John Eaves is suggesting that the Scimitar came after the Valdore.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #22 on:** April 11, 2003, 08:32:33 am »

Skimitar looks like a Bat

Aliasalpha · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:07:56 am »

What was the Valdore? That new warbird style ship?

Am I the only one that thought the Scimitar looked (and in SFCIII played) completely crap?

Apocolypse · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:08:53 am »

Why do you think its strange that the Valdore was before the Scimitar? We know of at least 2 Valdores which signifies that they are past the prototype phase, and are a regular part of the Romulan military. The Scimitar is the one and only. Which im guessing means its named the Scimitar, AND is Scimitar class.

Tremok · « **Reply #25 on:** April 11, 2003, 04:01:36 pm »

What was the Valdore? That new warbird style ship?

If you D/Led the Nemesis expansion you will have its art

(snip) Scimitar in SFCIII played completely crap?

Hah hah.

Tremok · « **Reply #26 on:** April 11, 2003, 04:10:52 pm »

Quote:

Why do you think its strange that the Valdore was before the Scimitar? We know of at least 2 Valdores which signifies that they are past the prototype phase, and are a regular part of the Romulan military. The Scimitar is the one and only. Which im guessing means its named the Scimitar, AND is Scimitar class.

In my mind I always pictured that the development of the Scimitar started first and then the Valdore project was begun. But because of the size and scope of the Scimitar project, it took alot longer to complete, and the Valdores went into production first. (The F-117 project was completed alot faster than the B-2 project, for example).

But now, according to John Eaves, the Scimitar was developed later, and (he implies) might be partially based on, than the Valdore. This also implies that the Scimitar was outfitted with cutting edge technology that the Valdores didn't have. One wonders if the Romulans will apply the Scimitars advance technology (such as firing while cloaked, raising shields while cloaked, secondary as well as primary shields, and attaining a faster warp speed than what the Sovereigns are capable of)

Tulmahk · « **Reply #27 on:** April 11, 2003, 07:26:53 pm »

I think it's safe to assume the Federation is going to put a great amount of pressure on the Romulans to sign onto a treaty to limit some of that technological advancement.

The Klingons already have a treaty with the Federation agreeing not to use their fire-when-cloaked technology (the Romulans probably stole that tech from the Empire). Of course, that's in addition to the Klingons being against such a thing on principle; it is dishonorable not to 'show your face' to the enemy when you attack, so any Klingon who used the tech would be considered dishonorable by the society as a whole.

Tremok · « **Reply #28 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:45:58 pm »

I think it's safe to assume the Federation is going to put a great amount of pressure on the Romulans to sign onto a treaty to limit some of that technological advancement. Why would the Romulans sign that? When a military develops better, more advance military equipment than everyone else they keep it and use it. Alas, even if they did sign something like that for whatever reason, they probably wouldn't use it.

The Klingons already have a treaty with the Federation agreeing not to use their fire-when-cloaked technology

Whats your source on that?

(the Romulans probably stole that tech from the Empire). Why do you say that? Romulan Technology has always been ahead of the Klingons. Also, the Scimitar could raise its shields while cloaked, was faster than the Enterprise, had a holographic projection communication thing that couldn't be trace, had a perfect cloaked, and also had super-maneuverability. Considering the rest of the ships technology, I think the Scimitars fire-while-cloaked system would be so advance it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Klingons verison.

Tremok · « **Reply #29 on:** April 11, 2003, 11:24:29 pm »

Yes. Shinzon and his Reman backing is has also have been dealt with. Hmm, looks to me the all that is left is the military.

The world waits and wonders about the future of the Romulans government and their ships.

Tremok · « **Reply #30 on:** April 12, 2003, 12:38:49 am »

]Well, if SFC3 is the slightest bit canon (since it looks like TNG is over for good), the Tal Shiar is out as well.

Far as I know Star Trek games aren't canon. Klingon Academy is the only one I believe might be.

Since the military is all that is left, it's a toss-up between the leaders that backed Shinzon and the only two known anti-Shinzon officers, Donatra and Suram.

I believe it was much more than just them. Remember, after the battle of the Rift, the Romulans invited the Federation back for some real talks this time.

Then there is the Remans, who no doubt want a say in their future. According to a letter one of these forum members had with Digital Domain (the company that did all the CGI work for Nemesis) the Romulans game down on the Remans like a hand from God after the Rift battle. Remember, Remans and Romulans don't like each other at all, and Remans are just one planets population. This is not canon, just backstage info.

Edit: It'd be nice if future Trek games explored the (possible) future of Romulus. One concept could be a ship sim revolving around a potential Romulan civil war, with players commanding their own Federation, Klingon, Romulan, or Reman starship in the conflict.

indeed, so much possibility and unkowns for the future of Trek.

Tremok · « **Reply #32 on:** April 12, 2003, 01:59:39 am »

Because the Star Empire has a lot of internal strife right now,

We don't know that. The military seems pretty well in charge from my point of few.

and if the Federation and Klingons attacked them,

Why would they do that? Come now, the Federation never would, and I have my doubts about the Klingons. They are in a far worse shape than the Romulans.

they would be in a position that would be difficult to defend, to say the least.

I don't know about that. Remember, the SFCIII isn't canon. The Federations and Klingons too considerably more losses in the Dominion War than the Romulans. I personally believe no one is in a postion to fight anyone right now.

Romulans look for advantage, and will only strike when they think they have one. Romulans are chess players, as simple as that.

With the Federation, Klingons, heck probably the Breen and Cardassians breathing down their neck, they have a big incentive to sign

. Out of all the Alpha/Beta quadrant empires after the Dominion Wars, the Romulans are the ones that are best off. Plus with all the Scimitar, Valdore, and the supposed upgrading of the D'deridex (sourse: offical website), I wouldn't mess with them right now. God forbid the Romulans have anymore thelaron weapons. And even if they didn't sign whatever to keep the pressure off, they simply ignore it and go about their whatever their fancy in secert

In addition, we don't know a lot about the strength of the Romulan military. They are hiding something, but is that 'something' strength or weakness? If it's weakness they'd sign. If it's strength, the Alpha and Beta Quadrants are in trouble! What sourse gives you that idea?

Actually, that isn't true. Remember in TOS when the Romulans scrapped their Birds of Prey in favor of Klingon D-7s? Even they had to admit their ship technology was behind that of the Klingons, going so far as to scrap their navy in favor of a foreign-bought one. This was a stop-gap measure to discourage a Federation invasion, once the Romulans had discovered their latest and best ship design was no match for a Federation cruiser (see Balance of Terror). Of course, this didn't prevent Kirk from entering Romulan space and stealing a cloaking device right from under the Praetor's nose (figuratively speaking).

Actually, the only reason the Romulans got the D-7s at all was because the producers dropped the Rom BoP model and damaged just before the shooting of the episode. The Romulans weren't to happy about that, no sir. Stupid producers. The fact is, in ENT time, Romulan ships seem to be superior to either Klingon or Starfleet ships. And then in TNG Romulans technology generally seems to be ahead of the Klingons and about equal to the Federations. In Nemesis, it seems Romulan technology is pulling ahead of everybody elses.

To be certain, the Romulans do value science. Their quantum singularity drive is the envy of many a Alpha Quadrant power. The 'light bending' type cloaking device was also a great advancement that had even Spock impressed (as opposed to the much-inferior Suliban particle-dispersion cloak). But the Romulans value subterfuge and spying at least as much.

Romulans can rely on neither alone but on both.

Why reinvent the wheel of fire-when-cloaked tech, if you can spend a tenth of the resources on stealing it from the Klingons? Especially when those saved resources can then be spent on further improvements like the 'perfect cloak', and keeping shields up while cloaked? Why would you want a M1A2SEP fire control system when you could have a T-72 fire control system for alot cheaper? Because one does the job a heck of alot better than the other. How old is the Klingon cloak system anyway? About 100 years is? I am sure it would be obsolete by now.

Romulans always did have the most advance cloaks in the quadrant, who's to say the Klingons didn't steal the plans from a Romulan project in the first place? There isn't any canon to suggest one way or another.

Remember when a small Alpha Quadrant power known as Earth kept pissing off the then-technologically-superior Klingons? Now it's the Federation and Romulans who are technologically superior (as they both value science, to varying degrees. As opposed to the Klingons who don't value science nearly as much).

The Romulans have an advance culture, and they recognize the vaule and importances of science every bit as much as the Federation does.

DavT · « **Reply #33 on:** April 12, 2003, 02:34:11 am »

Two points.

1. Why do most people think the Klingons are technologically stagnant? We've seen impressive examples of Klingon technology in DS9, and we know they are always trying to improve their technology. For example, the Klingons were said to have been working on phase cloak all the way back in TNG or earlier (though unsuccessfully). Just because they're a race of warriors, doesn't mean they don't have any scientists. On the contrary, they would probably devote quite a bit of resources into researching new technology with military applications. A warrior is very much dependent on his weapon, and there should be great honor associated with forging battle gear that is better than the enemy's. Note: the Klingons never had an issue with fighting technologically inferior foe, or using cloaking devices. For them, there is no greater honor than victory. No matter if the victory came from skills or technology or both. Personally, I don't think the Klingons had much to do with the technology seen in the Nemesis, simply because it was a Romulan-oriented movie. But that does not warrant dismissing the Klingons out of hand simply on the idea that their cloak has not changed in the last 100 years. We know it has.

2. The Scimitar is most likely not of Romulan origin, and should not be regarded as a part of the Romulan Fleet. They might have had something to do with bits and pieces of it, but there is no way in hell that the Romulans would build the ship and give it to the Remans. Even if the ship is a potential death trap, the Romulans would definately want to keep it under their direct control, manned with loyal Romulans, knowing full well what its capabilities are if they had built it. And the Romulans are never one not to sacrifice it own troops, TNG's "Reunification" made that clear enough. But through out Nemesis, the Romulans sounded as if they had very little control over the Scimitar. The ship is almost certainly a Reman project, and one of a kind. Either that, or the Romulans thought "hey, wouldn't it be fun to give this planet-killer to our own enslaved and brutalized ethnic minority who we absolutely hate and wouldn't mind wiping out, who also share the same feelings towards us?" It would thus be fairer to see the Valdore in the game than the Scimitar (though not as fun as seeing them both).

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #34 on:** April 12, 2003, 12:57:25 pm »

OK

I'll state the known about Romulan technologies, events, and alliances

2152: The Enterprise encounters 2 Romulan ships. They have a cloaking device that is powerful enough to render Earth's primitive sensors useless in detecting the ship. It also makes the ship invisable to the naked eye without close inspection. The ship also launches Atomic weaponry througha FTL delivery system. The weapon can be precisely targeted.

2266: A Romulan Bird of Prey crosses the neutral zone and attacks Federation outposts. It features a cloaking device that allows it to hide from Enterprise's sensors. An occasional "Blip" would allow Spock to track it. The power required for the combination Cloak and Plasma Torpedo forced the ship to use up its fuel reserves. The Commander self-destructed.

Some time around 2268 the Romulans started using Klingon Battlecruisers (identified as a D-7 class in "Trials and Tribulations") These ships were more durable and able to be put in a fleet of less ships (3 RD7's were used in "The Enterprise Incident" compared to 12 BOP's in "The Deadly Years"). The Romulans use a cloak that is completely invisible to the sensors of this time

2285: The Klingons appear with their own Bird of Prey. This design features a cloaking device similar to the Romulans, only clearly flawed. A visible distortion was at least as significant than the "Blip" that Spock could see to track the Rom BoP (although this might be due to the improved sensors).

2292: The Romulans and Klingons become blood enemies. The Klingons develop a cloaking device that can fire while cloaked. this cloak is subsiquently rendered obsolete by Federation resourcefulness and technology.

53 years prior to "The Neutral Zone", set in 2364: The infamous Tomed Incident causes Romulans to completely isolate themselves from the Federation. No knowledge of their technological advancement is known.

2364: Romulans encountered by the Federation. The new D'Deridex class Warbird is armed with Disruptors (possibly the exchange for the Cloak). Their cloak had no visible distortion (something that Federation intelligence was desperately hoping for)

2368: An attempt to control the Klingon government fails. The Federation learns a way to detect the Romulan cloaking device. Their first attempts at a phased Cloaking Device fails

2370: The existance of a Federation Phased cloaking device is descovered. The Federation agree to never use it.

2371: The Romulans, not the Klingons, agree to give to give a cloak for instillation on the USS Defiant (This is a strong suggestion that Romulan cloaks are superior. In Devil's Due, Picard syas "A Romulan Claoking Device?" The Klingons rarely get credit for their cloak). Once in the Gamma Quadrent, it is descovered that the Dominion is capable of detecting the cloak easily.
The Cardassian Obisidian Order, along with a significant number of Romulan Tal Shiar operatives and equiptment are wiped out in a Dominion ambush.

2374: A romulan attempt to sieze the Cheese ship Promethius fails. The Romulans join the Federation and Klingons against the Dominion. They commit a large number of their largest ships, The D'deridex Warbird, knowing they are will become obsolete in a few years by the new "Valdore type" Warbird.

Whatever year Nemesis is: Romulans develop a perfect cloak that can fire when cloaked, keep its shields up, has no tacyon emmisions or anti-proton residue. They also develop improved shielding and thrusters. All the remaining D'deridex's are refitted with these, but the new Valdores can use these the most effectivly.
This cloak is aquired by Shinzon and installed on the newly completed Scimitar. This ship is based on Valdore, allowing for maximum minuverability. It is also based on the Dominion Battleship, allowing for maximum firepower. Finally, it is based on Shinzon's own tastes, causing the ship to look sort of like a bat.

Ok, maybe I added a few things of my own speculation. It is speculated that Enterprise B's bulky design was for the purpose of detecting that Klingon cloak. It is clear that the Klingons stopped using it, but their cloak improved to the point where the Romulans didn't notice 3 GIANT BoP's sitting near them in the Defector. That is the evolution of stealth and radar.

Apocolypse · « **Reply #35 on:** April 12, 2003, 01:03:31 pm »

The reason the Romulans would sign it is because we still outnumber them by many. Us and the Klingons could easily take out the Romulans and any attempted program.

Tremok · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2003, 12:07:25 am »

The Thalaron radiation emitters is probably Reman technology, for the reasons I gave at the end of page 2 of this thread.

I recommend that you see my Romulan Ship History thread about what I have to say about the supposed difference of Reman and Romulan technology. Its located in the Scimitar section.

Strictly speaking, the Federation struck FIRST during the Dominion War. While the Dominion was assaulting DS9 because Sisko decided to mine the wormhole entrence, a joint Federation/Klingon fleet crossed into Cardassian space and destroyed one of their major shipyards. It was the reason why no reinforcement was sent to DS9 to protect it, Starfleet was busy staging a major offensive to kick off the war.

Everyone knew that the Dominion War of conquest had started. If the Dominon sat quietly in its little corner of space with bothering anyone then the Federation would of left them alone.

That's not very fair a statement, even a wounded Klingon Empire is more than a match for the Ferengi Alliance on the battlefield, especially considering how the Ferengi's armed forces consists of mercenaries and militias.

*Romulan Snicker*

While it's true the Klingons suffered heavy losses during the war, they were not nearly as devastated as the Cardassians were. And since no Klingon territory directly bordered the combat theater, Klingon infrastructure survived the war intact. It's unlikely that they were even raided, considering the distance the Klingon fleet had to travel to reach the neighbourhood of Cardassian space in "Ways of the Warrior". The Klingons will recover, soon enough.

Everyones infrastructures was broken. And remember, the a few weeks the Klingons had to deal with Dominion and its allies all on its on. Out of all the allied empires, the Klingons where the ones hurt the most.

Actually, the Obsedian Order was claimed to be the top dog of that category... At least, it was the top dog.

Your the first one that I had ever heard make that claim.

And while the Obsedian Order might of been a respectable intelligence organization, the Cardassians on the whole are nothing more than a bunch of bullies, thugs.

News:

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Topic: Fate of the Valdore (Read 21543 times)