Topic: Fate of the Valdore (Read 21548 times)

Tremok · « **on:** April 07, 2003, 09:17:20 pm »

Many, many moons ago, when the world was young and dinosaurs still roamed the forums, we inquired about the fate of the Valdore and Scimitar. The Dev teased us, saying just that "we have special plans for the Valdore. Stay tuned".

Alas, fast foward billions of years, and here we are today. Now I am inquiring again; What has happened to the Valdore? Have that given up on it? Have the plans (if any) been dropped? And what of the Scimitar? Will that ever be balanced and made an offical ship for the Romulans?

The world wonders (well, I do, in anyway

)

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2003, 09:33:08 pm »

Thanks for asking

All us Rommies want to know
BTW, I don't want anyone to mention modeling. I am talking official.
I even remember the question of whether they will call it Valdore

The answer:

"To be decided" Maybe Taldren removed the old forums so we couldn't find their quotes and re-post them
So, please Taldren
I am having so much fun with black text, I haven't done this in a long time
Give us a response

The_Pelican · « **Reply #2 on:** April 08, 2003, 10:48:15 am »

It's okay, most of us already have the Valdore.

David Ferrell · « **Reply #3 on:** April 08, 2003, 01:36:48 pm »

Taldren never had any plans for the Valdore. Sorry.

Thanks,

Dave

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #4 on:** April 08, 2003, 03:31:31 pm »

Tulmahk · « **Reply #5 on:** April 08, 2003, 05:40:34 pm »

Quite honestly, it doesn't even matter. It is the easiest thing in the world for a server to include the Scimitar and Valdore, along with a plethora of other vessels and brand new missions.

What does it matter if Taldren makes it 'official'? In every way that matters, it already is. A proclomation from Taldren would be like Taldren making it 'official' that the world is round.

Play The Neutral Zone and the Dominion Wars mods and servers, and you'll never go back to vanilla SFC3 willingly or happily.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #6 on:** April 08, 2003, 06:47:21 pm »

Yeah

You're right

Apocolypse · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2003, 06:56:42 pm »

All i must say to you Romulans is....bwahahahhahahahahahahahhahahaa
Long live the Federation.

Qob'nuH · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2003, 07:00:01 pm »

Quote:

It's okay, most of us already have the Valdore.

Do you mean Dawn's Valdore? If so, did anyone ever fix the out-of-place structure on the port wing?

Tremok · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2003, 08:53:05 pm »

Tulmahk, I understand that after the patch Romulans don't NEED the Valdore or the Scimitar, its just a matter of it would be a nice treat.

Yes, I understand most servers nowadays are running Scimitars, and most mods have Valdores. But to me, Mods are just not the same. When you go shopping for an antique car, do you pefer the real deal or the replica? I feel the same way concerning official ships and mod ships. Like it or not, the seal of 'official' DOES have weight to it, even though sometimes the fakes/replicas are just as good.

Almost every server today has the Scimitar. Indeed it is all but an official ship. But every server tweaks and mods it to their own personal preferences. I really can't say I blame them, since the Scimitar never was balanced to play online. I simply appreciate it if Taldren would balance the ship and put a seal of approval on it.

To be honest, I will likely never play TNZ or DW. I really don't have the connection for it. Also, while I appreciate the new ship models, I don't like it when they try to rebalance the game. It is very hard for modders to balance the game better than the game company.

Tulmahk · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2003, 10:41:34 pm »

Tremok, of course it's your call.

Just to let you know, SghnDubh has a CD burning service now, where you can order TNZ CD from him, just for the price of the shipping. Private message him and ask for details, it's worth checking out.

Jolan tru fellow Rom!

Apocolypse · « **Reply #15 on:** April 09, 2003, 10:12:27 am »

Alpha....that some kind of mod? As im sure any current Valdore is, so it doesnt count. Having the Valdore and it being 'cool' would be just as cool as the Federation getting the Prometheus, and i'll take your Valdore with that any day.

Aenigma · « **Reply #17 on:** April 09, 2003, 12:13:33 pm »

I hope they can make a Star Trek mod for freelancer.... that would be cool, if it weren't for Microsoft (they probably don't want it).

Aenigma

Apocolypse · « **Reply #18 on:** April 09, 2003, 03:12:38 pm »

Eh, the freelancer engine wouldnt work for star trek. Wouldnt work right.

Apocolypse · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2003, 11:14:47 am »

The idea is good, but then again if it were made i'd make sure to have my 'no 56kers' tag on my server

Tremok · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2003, 10:40:48 pm »

This is interesting. I just read a quote from John Eaves that he intended that the Scimitar looked descended from the Valdore. Hmm...

Tremok · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2003, 10:50:47 pm »

Must've been some recessive traits.

The influence of the Remans, no doubt.

But I actually I think both ships are very good looking. The Valdore, being very sleek and graceful, and the Scimitar, having a dark beauty around it.

I simply find it interesting that the John Eaves is suggesting that the Scimitar came after the Valdore.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #22 on:** April 11, 2003, 08:32:33 am »

Skimitar looks like a Bat

Aliasalpha · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:07:56 am »

What was the Valdore? That new warbird style ship?

Am I the only one that thought the Scimitar looked (and in SFCIII played) completely crap?

Apocolypse · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:08:53 am »

Why do you think its strange that the Valdore was before the Scimitar? We know of at least 2 Valdores which signifies that they are past the prototype phase, and are a regular part of the Romulan military. The Scimitar is the one and only. Which im guessing means its named the Scimitar, AND is Scimitar class.

Tremok · « **Reply #25 on:** April 11, 2003, 04:01:36 pm »

What was the Valdore? That new warbird style ship?

If you D/Led the Nemesis expansion you will have its art

(snip) Scimitar in SFCIII played completely crap?

Hah hah.

Tulmahk · « **Reply #27 on:** April 11, 2003, 07:26:53 pm »

I think it's safe to assume the Federation is going to put a great amount of pressure on the Romulans to sign onto a treaty to limit some of that technological advancement.

The Klingons already have a treaty with the Federation agreeing not to use their fire-when-cloaked technology (the Romulans probably stole that tech from the Empire). Of course, that's in addition to the Klingons being against such a thing on principle; it is dishonorable not to 'show your face' to the enemy when you attack, so any Klingon who used the tech would be considered dishonorable by the society as a whole.

Tremok · « **Reply #28 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:45:58 pm »

I think it's safe to assume the Federation is going to put a great amount of pressure on the Romulans to sign onto a treaty to limit some of that technological advancement. Why would the Romulans sign that? When a military develops better, more advance military equipment than everyone else they keep it and use it. Alas, even if they did sign something like that for whatever reason, they probably wouldn't use it.

The Klingons already have a treaty with the Federation agreeing not to use their fire-when-cloaked technology

Whats your source on that?

(the Romulans probably stole that tech from the Empire). Why do you say that? Romulan Technology has always been ahead of the Klingons. Also, the Scimitar could raise its shields while cloaked, was faster than the Enterprise, had a holographic projection communication thing that couldn't be trace, had a perfect cloaked, and also had super-maneuverability. Considering the rest of the ships technology, I think the Scimitars fire-while-cloaked system would be so advance it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Klingons verison.

Tremok · « **Reply #29 on:** April 11, 2003, 11:24:29 pm »

Yes. Shinzon and his Reman backing is has also have been dealt with. Hmm, looks to me the all that is left is the military.

The world waits and wonders about the future of the Romulans government and their ships.

Tremok · « **Reply #30 on:** April 12, 2003, 12:38:49 am »

]Well, if SFC3 is the slightest bit canon (since it looks like TNG is over for good), the Tal Shiar is out as well.

Far as I know Star Trek games aren't canon. Klingon Academy is the only one I believe might be.

Since the military is all that is left, it's a toss-up between the leaders that backed Shinzon and the only two known anti-Shinzon officers, Donatra and Suram.

I believe it was much more than just them. Remember, after the battle of the Rift, the Romulans invited the Federation back for some real talks this time.

Then there is the Remans, who no doubt want a say in their future. According to a letter one of these forum members had with Digital Domain (the company that did all the CGI work for Nemesis) the Romulans game down on the Remans like a hand from God after the Rift battle. Remember, Remans and Romulans don't like each other at all, and Remans are just one planets population. This is not canon, just backstage info.

Edit: It'd be nice if future Trek games explored the (possible) future of Romulus. One concept could be a ship sim revolving around a potential Romulan civil war, with players commanding their own Federation, Klingon, Romulan, or Reman starship in the conflict.

indeed, so much possibility and unkowns for the future of Trek.

Tremok · « **Reply #32 on:** April 12, 2003, 01:59:39 am »

Because the Star Empire has a lot of internal strife right now,

We don't know that. The military seems pretty well in charge from my point of few.

and if the Federation and Klingons attacked them,

Why would they do that? Come now, the Federation never would, and I have my doubts about the Klingons. They are in a far worse shape than the Romulans.

they would be in a position that would be difficult to defend, to say the least.

I don't know about that. Remember, the SFCIII isn't canon. The Federations and Klingons too considerably more losses in the Dominion War than the Romulans. I personally believe no one is in a postion to fight anyone right now.

Romulans look for advantage, and will only strike when they think they have one. Romulans are chess players, as simple as that.

With the Federation, Klingons, heck probably the Breen and Cardassians breathing down their neck, they have a big incentive to sign

. Out of all the Alpha/Beta quadrant empires after the Dominion Wars, the Romulans are the ones that are best off. Plus with all the Scimitar, Valdore, and the supposed upgrading of the D'deridex (sourse: offical website), I wouldn't mess with them right now. God forbid the Romulans have anymore thelaron weapons. And even if they didn't sign whatever to keep the pressure off, they simply ignore it and go about their whatever their fancy in secert

In addition, we don't know a lot about the strength of the Romulan military. They are hiding something, but is that 'something' strength or weakness? If it's weakness they'd sign. If it's strength, the Alpha and Beta Quadrants are in trouble! What sourse gives you that idea?

Actually, that isn't true. Remember in TOS when the Romulans scrapped their Birds of Prey in favor of Klingon D-7s? Even they had to admit their ship technology was behind that of the Klingons, going so far as to scrap their navy in favor of a foreign-bought one. This was a stop-gap measure to discourage a Federation invasion, once the Romulans had discovered their latest and best ship design was no match for a Federation cruiser (see Balance of Terror). Of course, this didn't prevent Kirk from entering Romulan space and stealing a cloaking device right from under the Praetor's nose (figuratively speaking).

Actually, the only reason the Romulans got the D-7s at all was because the producers dropped the Rom BoP model and damaged just before the shooting of the episode. The Romulans weren't to happy about that, no sir. Stupid producers. The fact is, in ENT time, Romulan ships seem to be superior to either Klingon or Starfleet ships. And then in TNG Romulans technology generally seems to be ahead of the Klingons and about equal to the Federations. In Nemesis, it seems Romulan technology is pulling ahead of everybody elses.

To be certain, the Romulans do value science. Their quantum singularity drive is the envy of many a Alpha Quadrant power. The 'light bending' type cloaking device was also a great advancement that had even Spock impressed (as opposed to the much-inferior Suliban particle-dispersion cloak). But the Romulans value subterfuge and spying at least as much.

Romulans can rely on neither alone but on both.

Why reinvent the wheel of fire-when-cloaked tech, if you can spend a tenth of the resources on stealing it from the Klingons? Especially when those saved resources can then be spent on further improvements like the 'perfect cloak', and keeping shields up while cloaked? Why would you want a M1A2SEP fire control system when you could have a T-72 fire control system for alot cheaper? Because one does the job a heck of alot better than the other. How old is the Klingon cloak system anyway? About 100 years is? I am sure it would be obsolete by now.

Romulans always did have the most advance cloaks in the quadrant, who's to say the Klingons didn't steal the plans from a Romulan project in the first place? There isn't any canon to suggest one way or another.

Remember when a small Alpha Quadrant power known as Earth kept pissing off the then-technologically-superior Klingons? Now it's the Federation and Romulans who are technologically superior (as they both value science, to varying degrees. As opposed to the Klingons who don't value science nearly as much).

The Romulans have an advance culture, and they recognize the vaule and importances of science every bit as much as the Federation does.

DavT · « **Reply #33 on:** April 12, 2003, 02:34:11 am »

Two points.

1. Why do most people think the Klingons are technologically stagnant? We've seen impressive examples of Klingon technology in DS9, and we know they are always trying to improve their technology. For example, the Klingons were said to have been working on phase cloak all the way back in TNG or earlier (though unsuccessfully). Just because they're a race of warriors, doesn't mean they don't have any scientists. On the contrary, they would probably devote quite a bit of resources into researching new technology with military applications. A warrior is very much dependent on his weapon, and there should be great honor associated with forging battle gear that is better than the enemy's. Note: the Klingons never had an issue with fighting technologically inferior foe, or using cloaking devices. For them, there is no greater honor than victory. No matter if the victory came from skills or technology or both. Personally, I don't think the Klingons had much to do with the technology seen in the Nemesis, simply because it was a Romulan-oriented movie. But that does not warrant dismissing the Klingons out of hand simply on the idea that their cloak has not changed in the last 100 years. We know it has.

2. The Scimitar is most likely not of Romulan origin, and should not be regarded as a part of the Romulan Fleet. They might have had something to do with bits and pieces of it, but there is no way in hell that the Romulans would build the ship and give it to the Remans. Even if the ship is a potential death trap, the Romulans would definately want to keep it under their direct control, manned with loyal Romulans, knowing full well what its capabilities are if they had built it. And the Romulans are never one not to sacrifice it own troops, TNG's "Reunification" made that clear enough. But through out Nemesis, the Romulans sounded as if they had very little control over the Scimitar. The ship is almost certainly a Reman project, and one of a kind. Either that, or the Romulans thought "hey, wouldn't it be fun to give this planet-killer to our own enslaved and brutalized ethnic minority who we absolutely hate and wouldn't mind wiping out, who also share the same feelings towards us?" It would thus be fairer to see the Valdore in the game than the Scimitar (though not as fun as seeing them both).

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #34 on:** April 12, 2003, 12:57:25 pm »

OK

I'll state the known about Romulan technologies, events, and alliances

2152: The Enterprise encounters 2 Romulan ships. They have a cloaking device that is powerful enough to render Earth's primitive sensors useless in detecting the ship. It also makes the ship invisable to the naked eye without close inspection. The ship also launches Atomic weaponry througha FTL delivery system. The weapon can be precisely targeted.

2266: A Romulan Bird of Prey crosses the neutral zone and attacks Federation outposts. It features a cloaking device that allows it to hide from Enterprise's sensors. An occasional "Blip" would allow Spock to track it. The power required for the combination Cloak and Plasma Torpedo forced the ship to use up its fuel reserves. The Commander self-destructed.

Some time around 2268 the Romulans started using Klingon Battlecruisers (identified as a D-7 class in "Trials and Tribulations") These ships were more durable and able to be put in a fleet of less ships (3 RD7's were used in "The Enterprise Incident" compared to 12 BOP's in "The Deadly Years"). The Romulans use a cloak that is completely invisible to the sensors of this time

2285: The Klingons appear with their own Bird of Prey. This design features a cloaking device similar to the Romulans, only clearly flawed. A visible distortion was at least as significant than the "Blip" that Spock could see to track the Rom BoP (although this might be due to the improved sensors).

2292: The Romulans and Klingons become blood enemies. The Klingons develop a cloaking device that can fire while cloaked. this cloak is subsiquently rendered obsolete by Federation resourcefulness and technology.

53 years prior to "The Neutral Zone", set in 2364: The infamous Tomed Incident causes Romulans to completely isolate themselves from the Federation. No knowledge of their technological advancement is known.

2364: Romulans encountered by the Federation. The new D'Deridex class Warbird is armed with Disruptors (possibly the exchange for the Cloak). Their cloak had no visible distortion (something that Federation intelligence was desperately hoping for)

2368: An attempt to control the Klingon government fails. The Federation learns a way to detect the Romulan cloaking device. Their first attempts at a phased Cloaking Device fails

2370: The existance of a Federation Phased cloaking device is descovered. The Federation agree to never use it.

2371: The Romulans, not the Klingons, agree to give to give a cloak for instillation on the USS Defiant (This is a strong suggestion that Romulan cloaks are superior. In Devil's Due, Picard syas "A Romulan Claoking Device?" The Klingons rarely get credit for their cloak). Once in the Gamma Quadrent, it is descovered that the Dominion is capable of detecting the cloak easily.
The Cardassian Obisidian Order, along with a significant number of Romulan Tal Shiar operatives and equiptment are wiped out in a Dominion ambush.

2374: A romulan attempt to sieze the Cheese ship Promethius fails. The Romulans join the Federation and Klingons against the Dominion. They commit a large number of their largest ships, The D'deridex Warbird, knowing they are will become obsolete in a few years by the new "Valdore type" Warbird.

Whatever year Nemesis is: Romulans develop a perfect cloak that can fire when cloaked, keep its shields up, has no tacyon emmisions or anti-proton residue. They also develop improved shielding and thrusters. All the remaining D'deridex's are refitted with these, but the new Valdores can use these the most effectivly.
This cloak is aquired by Shinzon and installed on the newly completed Scimitar. This ship is based on Valdore, allowing for maximum minuverability. It is also based on the Dominion Battleship, allowing for maximum firepower. Finally, it is based on Shinzon's own tastes, causing the ship to look sort of like a bat.

Ok, maybe I added a few things of my own speculation. It is speculated that Enterprise B's bulky design was for the purpose of detecting that Klingon cloak. It is clear that the Klingons stopped using it, but their cloak improved to the point where the Romulans didn't notice 3 GIANT BoP's sitting near them in the Defector. That is the evolution of stealth and radar.

Apocolypse · « **Reply #35 on:** April 12, 2003, 01:03:31 pm »

The reason the Romulans would sign it is because we still outnumber them by many. Us and the Klingons could easily take out the Romulans and any attempted program.

Tremok · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2003, 12:07:25 am »

The Thalaron radiation emitters is probably Reman technology, for the reasons I gave at the end of page 2 of this thread.

I recommend that you see my Romulan Ship History thread about what I have to say about the supposed difference of Reman and Romulan technology. Its located in the Scimitar section.

Strictly speaking, the Federation struck FIRST during the Dominion War. While the Dominion was assaulting DS9 because Sisko decided to mine the wormhole entrence, a joint Federation/Klingon fleet crossed into Cardassian space and destroyed one of their major shipyards. It was the reason why no reinforcement was sent to DS9 to protect it, Starfleet was busy staging a major offensive to kick off the war.

Everyone knew that the Dominion War of conquest had started. If the Dominon sat quietly in its little corner of space with bothering anyone then the Federation would of left them alone.

That's not very fair a statement, even a wounded Klingon Empire is more than a match for the Ferengi Alliance on the battlefield, especially considering how the Ferengi's armed forces consists of mercenaries and militias.

*Romulan Snicker*

While it's true the Klingons suffered heavy losses during the war, they were not nearly as devastated as the Cardassians were. And since no Klingon territory directly bordered the combat theater, Klingon infrastructure survived the war intact. It's unlikely that they were even raided, considering the distance the Klingon fleet had to travel to reach the neighbourhood of Cardassian space in "Ways of the Warrior". The Klingons will recover, soon enough.

Everyones infrastructures was broken. And remember, the a few weeks the Klingons had to deal with Dominion and its allies all on its on. Out of all the allied empires, the Klingons where the ones hurt the most.

Actually, the Obsedian Order was claimed to be the top dog of that category... At least, it was the top dog.

Your the first one that I had ever heard make that claim.

And while the Obsedian Order might of been a respectable intelligence organization, the Cardassians on the whole are nothing more than a bunch of bullies, thugs.

Tremok · « **Reply #42 on:** April 13, 2003, 02:21:04 am »

And you do the same, in your thread.

Just spent an hour replying.

I was pointing out that the Federation can take aggressive action when its wellbeing is jeopardized, which it did.

Well, the Dominon was attacking, trying to conquer them. I don't think its in the Federations nature to attack another empire because it might have some revolutionary/superior military technologies.

You're confusing infrastructure with units. Infrastructures are used to build and maintain units, which are sent out to fight. The Klingons units took heavy losses during the period in which they alone held the line for the Alliance, but their infrastructure, consisting of their shipyards, mines, and factories were safely tucked away back in Klingon space. The same applied to the Romulans and the Federation, though the Federation, sharing the largest border area with the Cardassian/Dominion, suffered the most infrastructural damage ("One Little Ship", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Federation planets; "The Valiant", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Starfleet outposts). Still, none of the Alliance members had their infrastructure totalled the way Cardassian territory was.

I simply remember at the end of the war every empire was devastated, the Klingons the worse hit, and that it would take years for them all to rebuild. Also I remember the Dominion was at one time using the Nuetral Zone to attack the allies. From there, it could attack deeply into the both Klingon and Federation space. I am curious as to your source that you used to show what the borders where and how the war progressed.

Um, I'm actually basing this on statements made during DS9. Unfortunately, I can't give you the exact episodes, but I can assure you that the Obsedian Order was much more dangerous an organization than the Tal Shiar was. You'll have to ask around for the exact episodes and quotes, but they're there.

Better not be Garak. While I do remember that Garak might of said "The Obsedian was the best/among the best" I never recall anyone saying it was better than the Tal Shiar.

No argument about the Cardassians as a whole though, god I hate them. *recalls bitterly the first Federation/Cardassian War* But that does not mean the Obsedian Order isn't the most ruthless and effective intellegence organization among the Alpha Quadrant.

Indeed. All of the major empires have some admirable traits. The Federation has virtue, mercy, and diligence. The Klingons have honor, strength, and determination. The Romulans are professional, cunning, and have their own form of Bushido code (mnhei'sahe). The Cardassians are just thugs.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #43 on:** April 13, 2003, 09:00:03 am »

Garak doesn't like Romulans

I remember a statement of his the says:

Ah, Romulus.
How well I remember it.

You will find the predominant color to be gray.
The buildings. The clothes. The people.
Did you know that the Romulan heart itself is gray?
It's true.
And entirely appropriate for such an unimaginative race.

So don't trust what Garak says.

The Obsidian Order might be great, but it doesn't compare to the brutality of the Tal'Shiar

The Obsidian Order can be kept under control by Central Command

DavT, I'll reply to your post to me in a moment, it takes time to look up all the needed quotes

Tremok · « **Reply #45 on:** April 13, 2003, 11:38:22 am »

You will find the predominant color to be gray.
The buildings. The clothes. The people.
Did you know that the Romulan heart itself is gray?
It's true.
And entirely appropriate for such an unimaginative race.

As for Romulus, I found it to be rather pretty myself in Nemesis.

Tremok · « **Reply #46 on:** April 13, 2003, 11:57:27 am »

I seen the movie as well, and both ships looked green to me.

Well, they are in the Rift (a nebula). Weird lighting effects go on in those.

Tremok · « **Reply #47 on:** April 13, 2003, 12:02:04 pm »

RE: Scimitars cloak

Tachyons and anti-protons were mentioned. I remember it.

Now, can try to twist and spin the worlds all you want, but Geordi did say very clearly that the cloak was perfect, and that it could not be detected. Period.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #49 on:** April 13, 2003, 05:28:25 pm »

OK

Here was the discussion I saw about Galaxy class numbers

http://scn.infopop.net/0/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=526090832&f=9700964644&m=5460941135&p=1

Tremok · « **Reply #50 on:** April 13, 2003, 06:21:51 pm »

The ex-astris-scientia forums? *cringes*

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #51 on:** April 13, 2003, 07:08:31 pm »

:rolleyes:

I was using the information suggested based upon the facts suggested.

The ex-astris-scientia forums have about as good info as this one does

Tulmahk · « **Reply #53 on:** April 13, 2003, 07:34:18 pm »

Well, Tremok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally, I graduated from the War College. I suspect you graduated from the Academy. The Academy students get all the best propaganda (unlike us 'underpriviledged' Romulans who's only option for an education is the War College).

Being primed for membership in the Tal Shiar, are you? I suspect so. Only in the Tal Shiar's propaganda is there no political strife in the Star Empire (the whole senate gets wiped out, 2 Praetor's in a row get killed, and there is, according to you, no political strife? Ha! Propaganda of the highest order. And the Klingons a weakling empire? Well-bloodied, yes. Weakling? Never.)

Tremok · « **Reply #54 on:** April 13, 2003, 08:23:43 pm »

Well, Tremok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Alteast try to disprove whatever points of mine you disagree with.

Personally, I graduated from the War College. I suspect you graduated from the Academy. The Academy students get all the best propaganda (unlike us 'underpriviledged' Romulans who's only option for an education is the War College).

I do not understand the point of this comment. I never made any claims of being more privilged of superior to anyone.

2 Praetor's in a row get killed,

One Praetor was killed by a person that was brutally supressed and subjucated by the Empire. He, with the help of the Military established himself Praetor. Then, the Enterprise, with the assitance of two Valdore types, gets killed himself.

and there is, according to you, no political strife? Ha! Propaganda of the highest order. And the Klingons a weakling empire?

They Remans and Shinzon certainly weren't happy. In the movie, Shinzon does say that Governments changes often enough, but it makes no mention of how the vast populace of the Empire felt about the old government before it was killed. We know Romulans strongly 'dislike' Remans, so they probably would be very unhappy having them rule of them. But then they, too, where killed off.

I cannont see anyone in postion to oppose them Romulan military right now: The old government is gone, the one that replaced that one is also gone. All that seems to be left is them. They might even be nice and establish a republic, or they might just assume all they power for themselves. Only time will tell.

Well-bloodied, yes. Weakling? Never.)

I never said the Klingons are weak, just that they where the empire that was hardest hit during the Dominion War. I even listed several admiral tributes that they have.

As for the Ferengi comment, that was just role play.

Edit: And PS, I do not like the Tal Shiar. I am more of a Donatra type Romulan, a Romulan that lives by mnhei'sahe.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #55 on:** April 13, 2003, 08:32:16 pm »

You may debate about where you grew up in the Star Empire

Myself, I'm a defector who commited suicide 5 years ago. I should have no knowledge of current Romulan ship capacity.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #57 on:** April 14, 2003, 08:30:03 pm »

I would put the Klingons in worse shape then the Romulans because it would require tremendous loss of life for a Klingon to overthrow their leader (Today is a good day to die)

You forgot who was hit the least (and yet the most)

The Dominion

Since loss of ships and soldiers means nothing, they came out fine.

The only problem was the founder's disease.

Depending on how much you value them, they could have been hit the worst.

Tremok · « **Reply #58 on:** April 14, 2003, 08:45:43 pm »

I don't care which is better, I hope there both dead.

Anyway, I find your summery of they empires conditions to be reasonable enough. You mentioned in the Romulan section that there fleets appeared to take 'considerabe losses'.

While no doubt all the empires took considerable losses, I don't remember seeing that many Romulans ships loss; certainly nothing compared to the Federation or Klingons.

In the Battle of Chin'Toka we saw the orbital platforms destroy one or two Warbirds. In the retreat from Chin'Toka (enter the Breens), we saw a burning Warbrid wreck.

In What You Leave Behind we hear the Romulan flagship gets destroy and there line is struggling.

Make no mistake, they Romulans relied on a relatively small number of highly powerful warships to get the job done. They didn't have as many ships as the Federation/Klingons did, and couldn't afford to take the same number of losses.

In fact, we rarelly see the Romulan Warbirds in action during the big fleet battles. But still, I don't remember seeing very many Warbirds getting blown away.

Davey E · « **Reply #59 on:** April 17, 2003, 03:47:37 pm »

To me the whole DS9 series was good action, but a complete joke from a Stellar Cartagraphy point of view

Its has been said that "Betazed" was the furthest the Dominion pushed into Federation space,
However we also heard that the Romulans liberated "Benzar"
Now i for one do not see how this could of happened, "Benzar" is LY away from Cardassian space, Much much further away than Earth
I do now believe anyway that the Dominion would of been able to take and hold "Benzar" without any kind of supply

If you manage to get hold of the ST Star Charts Book, that was endorsed by Paramount, You,ll see what i mean

The truth is that the Domionion would of had to travel LY across Federation space to attack Romulan or Klingon Space

I remember at the end of the War, The Federation Alliance launched their attack on Cardassian space from Deep Space 375 which is not far from "Trill"
Now "Trill" would of been a much more accessable target for the Dominion that "Benzar" or "Bolarus", and a much more
winable scenario

Tremok · « **Reply #60 on:** April 17, 2003, 04:41:31 pm »

Speaking of the Star Charts book, I went to the other day to Barns and Noble. Didn't see any copies.

Tremok · « **Reply #62 on:** April 07, 2003, 09:17:20 pm »

Many, many moons ago, when the world was young and dinosaurs still roamed the forums, we inquired about the fate of the Valdore and Scimitar. The Dev teased us, saying just that "we have special plans for the Valdore. Stay tuned".

Alas, fast foward billions of years, and here we are today. Now I am inquiring again; What has happened to the Valdore? Have that given up on it? Have the plans (if any) been dropped? And what of the Scimitar? Will that ever be balanced and made an offical ship for the Romulans?

The world wonders (well, I do, in anyway

)

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #63 on:** April 07, 2003, 09:33:08 pm »

Thanks for asking

All us Rommies want to know
BTW, I don't want anyone to mention modeling. I am talking official.
I even remember the question of whether they will call it Valdore

The answer:

"To be decided" Maybe Taldren removed the old forums so we couldn't find their quotes and re-post them
So, please Taldren
I am having so much fun with black text, I haven't done this in a long time
Give us a response

The_Pelican · « **Reply #64 on:** April 08, 2003, 10:48:15 am »

It's okay, most of us already have the Valdore.

David Ferrell · « **Reply #65 on:** April 08, 2003, 01:36:48 pm »

Taldren never had any plans for the Valdore. Sorry.

Thanks,

Dave

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #66 on:** April 08, 2003, 03:31:31 pm »

Tulmahk · « **Reply #67 on:** April 08, 2003, 05:40:34 pm »

Quite honestly, it doesn't even matter. It is the easiest thing in the world for a server to include the Scimitar and Valdore, along with a plethora of other vessels and brand new missions.

What does it matter if Taldren makes it 'official'? In every way that matters, it already is. A proclomation from Taldren would be like Taldren making it 'official' that the world is round.

Play The Neutral Zone and the Dominion Wars mods and servers, and you'll never go back to vanilla SFC3 willingly or happily.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #68 on:** April 08, 2003, 06:47:21 pm »

Yeah

You're right

Apocolypse · « **Reply #69 on:** April 08, 2003, 06:56:42 pm »

All i must say to you Romulans is....bwahahahhahahahahahahahhahahaa
Long live the Federation.

Tremok · « **Reply #72 on:** April 08, 2003, 08:53:05 pm »

Tulmahk, I understand that after the patch Romulans don't NEED the Valdore or the Scimitar, its just a matter of it would be a nice treat.

Yes, I understand most servers nowadays are running Scimitars, and most mods have Valdores. But to me, Mods are just not the same. When you go shopping for an antique car, do you pefer the real deal or the replica? I feel the same way concerning official ships and mod ships. Like it or not, the seal of 'official' DOES have weight to it, even though sometimes the fakes/replicas are just as good.

Almost every server today has the Scimitar. Indeed it is all but an official ship. But every server tweaks and mods it to their own personal preferences. I really can't say I blame them, since the Scimitar never was balanced to play online. I simply appreciate it if Taldren would balance the ship and put a seal of approval on it.

To be honest, I will likely never play TNZ or DW. I really don't have the connection for it. Also, while I appreciate the new ship models, I don't like it when they try to rebalance the game. It is very hard for modders to balance the game better than the game company.

Tulmahk · « **Reply #76 on:** April 08, 2003, 10:41:34 pm »

Tremok, of course it's your call.

Just to let you know, SghnDubh has a CD burning service now, where you can order TNZ CD from him, just for the price of the shipping. Private message him and ask for details, it's worth checking out.

Jolan tru fellow Rom!

Apocolypse · « **Reply #77 on:** April 09, 2003, 10:12:27 am »

Alpha....that some kind of mod? As im sure any current Valdore is, so it doesnt count. Having the Valdore and it being 'cool' would be just as cool as the Federation getting the Prometheus, and i'll take your Valdore with that any day.

Aenigma · « **Reply #79 on:** April 09, 2003, 12:13:33 pm »

I hope they can make a Star Trek mod for freelancer.... that would be cool, if it weren't for Microsoft (they probably don't want it).

Aenigma

Apocolypse · « **Reply #80 on:** April 09, 2003, 03:12:38 pm »

Eh, the freelancer engine wouldnt work for star trek. Wouldnt work right.

Apocolypse · « **Reply #81 on:** April 10, 2003, 11:14:47 am »

The idea is good, but then again if it were made i'd make sure to have my 'no 56kers' tag on my server

Tremok · « **Reply #82 on:** April 10, 2003, 10:40:48 pm »

This is interesting. I just read a quote from John Eaves that he intended that the Scimitar looked descended from the Valdore. Hmm...

Tremok · « **Reply #83 on:** April 10, 2003, 10:50:47 pm »

Must've been some recessive traits.

The influence of the Remans, no doubt.

But I actually I think both ships are very good looking. The Valdore, being very sleek and graceful, and the Scimitar, having a dark beauty around it.

I simply find it interesting that the John Eaves is suggesting that the Scimitar came after the Valdore.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #84 on:** April 11, 2003, 08:32:33 am »

Skimitar looks like a Bat

Aliasalpha · « **Reply #85 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:07:56 am »

What was the Valdore? That new warbird style ship?

Am I the only one that thought the Scimitar looked (and in SFCIII played) completely crap?

Apocolypse · « **Reply #86 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:08:53 am »

Why do you think its strange that the Valdore was before the Scimitar? We know of at least 2 Valdores which signifies that they are past the prototype phase, and are a regular part of the Romulan military. The Scimitar is the one and only. Which im guessing means its named the Scimitar, AND is Scimitar class.

Tremok · « **Reply #87 on:** April 11, 2003, 04:01:36 pm »

What was the Valdore? That new warbird style ship?

If you D/Led the Nemesis expansion you will have its art

(snip) Scimitar in SFCIII played completely crap?

Hah hah.

Tulmahk · « **Reply #89 on:** April 11, 2003, 07:26:53 pm »

I think it's safe to assume the Federation is going to put a great amount of pressure on the Romulans to sign onto a treaty to limit some of that technological advancement.

The Klingons already have a treaty with the Federation agreeing not to use their fire-when-cloaked technology (the Romulans probably stole that tech from the Empire). Of course, that's in addition to the Klingons being against such a thing on principle; it is dishonorable not to 'show your face' to the enemy when you attack, so any Klingon who used the tech would be considered dishonorable by the society as a whole.

Tremok · « **Reply #90 on:** April 11, 2003, 10:45:58 pm »

I think it's safe to assume the Federation is going to put a great amount of pressure on the Romulans to sign onto a treaty to limit some of that technological advancement. Why would the Romulans sign that? When a military develops better, more advance military equipment than everyone else they keep it and use it. Alas, even if they did sign something like that for whatever reason, they probably wouldn't use it.

The Klingons already have a treaty with the Federation agreeing not to use their fire-when-cloaked technology

Whats your source on that?

(the Romulans probably stole that tech from the Empire). Why do you say that? Romulan Technology has always been ahead of the Klingons. Also, the Scimitar could raise its shields while cloaked, was faster than the Enterprise, had a holographic projection communication thing that couldn't be trace, had a perfect cloaked, and also had super-maneuverability. Considering the rest of the ships technology, I think the Scimitars fire-while-cloaked system would be so advance it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the Klingons verison.

Tremok · « **Reply #91 on:** April 11, 2003, 11:24:29 pm »

Yes. Shinzon and his Reman backing is has also have been dealt with. Hmm, looks to me the all that is left is the military.

The world waits and wonders about the future of the Romulans government and their ships.

Tremok · « **Reply #92 on:** April 12, 2003, 12:38:49 am »

]Well, if SFC3 is the slightest bit canon (since it looks like TNG is over for good), the Tal Shiar is out as well.

Far as I know Star Trek games aren't canon. Klingon Academy is the only one I believe might be.

Since the military is all that is left, it's a toss-up between the leaders that backed Shinzon and the only two known anti-Shinzon officers, Donatra and Suram.

I believe it was much more than just them. Remember, after the battle of the Rift, the Romulans invited the Federation back for some real talks this time.

Then there is the Remans, who no doubt want a say in their future. According to a letter one of these forum members had with Digital Domain (the company that did all the CGI work for Nemesis) the Romulans game down on the Remans like a hand from God after the Rift battle. Remember, Remans and Romulans don't like each other at all, and Remans are just one planets population. This is not canon, just backstage info.

Edit: It'd be nice if future Trek games explored the (possible) future of Romulus. One concept could be a ship sim revolving around a potential Romulan civil war, with players commanding their own Federation, Klingon, Romulan, or Reman starship in the conflict.

indeed, so much possibility and unkowns for the future of Trek.

Tremok · « **Reply #94 on:** April 12, 2003, 01:59:39 am »

Because the Star Empire has a lot of internal strife right now,

We don't know that. The military seems pretty well in charge from my point of few.

and if the Federation and Klingons attacked them,

Why would they do that? Come now, the Federation never would, and I have my doubts about the Klingons. They are in a far worse shape than the Romulans.

they would be in a position that would be difficult to defend, to say the least.

I don't know about that. Remember, the SFCIII isn't canon. The Federations and Klingons too considerably more losses in the Dominion War than the Romulans. I personally believe no one is in a postion to fight anyone right now.

Romulans look for advantage, and will only strike when they think they have one. Romulans are chess players, as simple as that.

With the Federation, Klingons, heck probably the Breen and Cardassians breathing down their neck, they have a big incentive to sign

. Out of all the Alpha/Beta quadrant empires after the Dominion Wars, the Romulans are the ones that are best off. Plus with all the Scimitar, Valdore, and the supposed upgrading of the D'deridex (sourse: offical website), I wouldn't mess with them right now. God forbid the Romulans have anymore thelaron weapons. And even if they didn't sign whatever to keep the pressure off, they simply ignore it and go about their whatever their fancy in secert

In addition, we don't know a lot about the strength of the Romulan military. They are hiding something, but is that 'something' strength or weakness? If it's weakness they'd sign. If it's strength, the Alpha and Beta Quadrants are in trouble! What sourse gives you that idea?

Actually, that isn't true. Remember in TOS when the Romulans scrapped their Birds of Prey in favor of Klingon D-7s? Even they had to admit their ship technology was behind that of the Klingons, going so far as to scrap their navy in favor of a foreign-bought one. This was a stop-gap measure to discourage a Federation invasion, once the Romulans had discovered their latest and best ship design was no match for a Federation cruiser (see Balance of Terror). Of course, this didn't prevent Kirk from entering Romulan space and stealing a cloaking device right from under the Praetor's nose (figuratively speaking).

Actually, the only reason the Romulans got the D-7s at all was because the producers dropped the Rom BoP model and damaged just before the shooting of the episode. The Romulans weren't to happy about that, no sir. Stupid producers. The fact is, in ENT time, Romulan ships seem to be superior to either Klingon or Starfleet ships. And then in TNG Romulans technology generally seems to be ahead of the Klingons and about equal to the Federations. In Nemesis, it seems Romulan technology is pulling ahead of everybody elses.

To be certain, the Romulans do value science. Their quantum singularity drive is the envy of many a Alpha Quadrant power. The 'light bending' type cloaking device was also a great advancement that had even Spock impressed (as opposed to the much-inferior Suliban particle-dispersion cloak). But the Romulans value subterfuge and spying at least as much.

Romulans can rely on neither alone but on both.

Why reinvent the wheel of fire-when-cloaked tech, if you can spend a tenth of the resources on stealing it from the Klingons? Especially when those saved resources can then be spent on further improvements like the 'perfect cloak', and keeping shields up while cloaked? Why would you want a M1A2SEP fire control system when you could have a T-72 fire control system for alot cheaper? Because one does the job a heck of alot better than the other. How old is the Klingon cloak system anyway? About 100 years is? I am sure it would be obsolete by now.

Romulans always did have the most advance cloaks in the quadrant, who's to say the Klingons didn't steal the plans from a Romulan project in the first place? There isn't any canon to suggest one way or another.

Remember when a small Alpha Quadrant power known as Earth kept pissing off the then-technologically-superior Klingons? Now it's the Federation and Romulans who are technologically superior (as they both value science, to varying degrees. As opposed to the Klingons who don't value science nearly as much).

The Romulans have an advance culture, and they recognize the vaule and importances of science every bit as much as the Federation does.

DavT · « **Reply #95 on:** April 12, 2003, 02:34:11 am »

Two points.

1. Why do most people think the Klingons are technologically stagnant? We've seen impressive examples of Klingon technology in DS9, and we know they are always trying to improve their technology. For example, the Klingons were said to have been working on phase cloak all the way back in TNG or earlier (though unsuccessfully). Just because they're a race of warriors, doesn't mean they don't have any scientists. On the contrary, they would probably devote quite a bit of resources into researching new technology with military applications. A warrior is very much dependent on his weapon, and there should be great honor associated with forging battle gear that is better than the enemy's. Note: the Klingons never had an issue with fighting technologically inferior foe, or using cloaking devices. For them, there is no greater honor than victory. No matter if the victory came from skills or technology or both. Personally, I don't think the Klingons had much to do with the technology seen in the Nemesis, simply because it was a Romulan-oriented movie. But that does not warrant dismissing the Klingons out of hand simply on the idea that their cloak has not changed in the last 100 years. We know it has.

2. The Scimitar is most likely not of Romulan origin, and should not be regarded as a part of the Romulan Fleet. They might have had something to do with bits and pieces of it, but there is no way in hell that the Romulans would build the ship and give it to the Remans. Even if the ship is a potential death trap, the Romulans would definately want to keep it under their direct control, manned with loyal Romulans, knowing full well what its capabilities are if they had built it. And the Romulans are never one not to sacrifice it own troops, TNG's "Reunification" made that clear enough. But through out Nemesis, the Romulans sounded as if they had very little control over the Scimitar. The ship is almost certainly a Reman project, and one of a kind. Either that, or the Romulans thought "hey, wouldn't it be fun to give this planet-killer to our own enslaved and brutalized ethnic minority who we absolutely hate and wouldn't mind wiping out, who also share the same feelings towards us?" It would thus be fairer to see the Valdore in the game than the Scimitar (though not as fun as seeing them both).

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #96 on:** April 12, 2003, 12:57:25 pm »

OK

I'll state the known about Romulan technologies, events, and alliances

2152: The Enterprise encounters 2 Romulan ships. They have a cloaking device that is powerful enough to render Earth's primitive sensors useless in detecting the ship. It also makes the ship invisable to the naked eye without close inspection. The ship also launches Atomic weaponry througha FTL delivery system. The weapon can be precisely targeted.

2266: A Romulan Bird of Prey crosses the neutral zone and attacks Federation outposts. It features a cloaking device that allows it to hide from Enterprise's sensors. An occasional "Blip" would allow Spock to track it. The power required for the combination Cloak and Plasma Torpedo forced the ship to use up its fuel reserves. The Commander self-destructed.

Some time around 2268 the Romulans started using Klingon Battlecruisers (identified as a D-7 class in "Trials and Tribulations") These ships were more durable and able to be put in a fleet of less ships (3 RD7's were used in "The Enterprise Incident" compared to 12 BOP's in "The Deadly Years"). The Romulans use a cloak that is completely invisible to the sensors of this time

2285: The Klingons appear with their own Bird of Prey. This design features a cloaking device similar to the Romulans, only clearly flawed. A visible distortion was at least as significant than the "Blip" that Spock could see to track the Rom BoP (although this might be due to the improved sensors).

2292: The Romulans and Klingons become blood enemies. The Klingons develop a cloaking device that can fire while cloaked. this cloak is subsiquently rendered obsolete by Federation resourcefulness and technology.

53 years prior to "The Neutral Zone", set in 2364: The infamous Tomed Incident causes Romulans to completely isolate themselves from the Federation. No knowledge of their technological advancement is known.

2364: Romulans encountered by the Federation. The new D'Deridex class Warbird is armed with Disruptors (possibly the exchange for the Cloak). Their cloak had no visible distortion (something that Federation intelligence was desperately hoping for)

2368: An attempt to control the Klingon government fails. The Federation learns a way to detect the Romulan cloaking device. Their first attempts at a phased Cloaking Device fails

2370: The existance of a Federation Phased cloaking device is descovered. The Federation agree to never use it.

2371: The Romulans, not the Klingons, agree to give to give a cloak for instillation on the USS Defiant (This is a strong suggestion that Romulan cloaks are superior. In Devil's Due, Picard syas "A Romulan Claoking Device?" The Klingons rarely get credit for their cloak). Once in the Gamma Quadrent, it is descovered that the Dominion is capable of detecting the cloak easily.
The Cardassian Obisidian Order, along with a significant number of Romulan Tal Shiar operatives and equiptment are wiped out in a Dominion ambush.

2374: A romulan attempt to sieze the Cheese ship Promethius fails. The Romulans join the Federation and Klingons against the Dominion. They commit a large number of their largest ships, The D'deridex Warbird, knowing they are will become obsolete in a few years by the new "Valdore type" Warbird.

Whatever year Nemesis is: Romulans develop a perfect cloak that can fire when cloaked, keep its shields up, has no tacyon emmisions or anti-proton residue. They also develop improved shielding and thrusters. All the remaining D'deridex's are refitted with these, but the new Valdores can use these the most effectivly.
This cloak is aquired by Shinzon and installed on the newly completed Scimitar. This ship is based on Valdore, allowing for maximum minuverability. It is also based on the Dominion Battleship, allowing for maximum firepower. Finally, it is based on Shinzon's own tastes, causing the ship to look sort of like a bat.

Ok, maybe I added a few things of my own speculation. It is speculated that Enterprise B's bulky design was for the purpose of detecting that Klingon cloak. It is clear that the Klingons stopped using it, but their cloak improved to the point where the Romulans didn't notice 3 GIANT BoP's sitting near them in the Defector. That is the evolution of stealth and radar.

Apocolypse · « **Reply #97 on:** April 12, 2003, 01:03:31 pm »

The reason the Romulans would sign it is because we still outnumber them by many. Us and the Klingons could easily take out the Romulans and any attempted program.

Tremok · « **Reply #101 on:** April 13, 2003, 12:07:25 am »

The Thalaron radiation emitters is probably Reman technology, for the reasons I gave at the end of page 2 of this thread.

I recommend that you see my Romulan Ship History thread about what I have to say about the supposed difference of Reman and Romulan technology. Its located in the Scimitar section.

Strictly speaking, the Federation struck FIRST during the Dominion War. While the Dominion was assaulting DS9 because Sisko decided to mine the wormhole entrence, a joint Federation/Klingon fleet crossed into Cardassian space and destroyed one of their major shipyards. It was the reason why no reinforcement was sent to DS9 to protect it, Starfleet was busy staging a major offensive to kick off the war.

Everyone knew that the Dominion War of conquest had started. If the Dominon sat quietly in its little corner of space with bothering anyone then the Federation would of left them alone.

That's not very fair a statement, even a wounded Klingon Empire is more than a match for the Ferengi Alliance on the battlefield, especially considering how the Ferengi's armed forces consists of mercenaries and militias.

*Romulan Snicker*

While it's true the Klingons suffered heavy losses during the war, they were not nearly as devastated as the Cardassians were. And since no Klingon territory directly bordered the combat theater, Klingon infrastructure survived the war intact. It's unlikely that they were even raided, considering the distance the Klingon fleet had to travel to reach the neighbourhood of Cardassian space in "Ways of the Warrior". The Klingons will recover, soon enough.

Everyones infrastructures was broken. And remember, the a few weeks the Klingons had to deal with Dominion and its allies all on its on. Out of all the allied empires, the Klingons where the ones hurt the most.

Actually, the Obsedian Order was claimed to be the top dog of that category... At least, it was the top dog.

Your the first one that I had ever heard make that claim.

And while the Obsedian Order might of been a respectable intelligence organization, the Cardassians on the whole are nothing more than a bunch of bullies, thugs.

Tremok · « **Reply #104 on:** April 13, 2003, 02:21:04 am »

And you do the same, in your thread.

Just spent an hour replying.

I was pointing out that the Federation can take aggressive action when its wellbeing is jeopardized, which it did.

Well, the Dominon was attacking, trying to conquer them. I don't think its in the Federations nature to attack another empire because it might have some revolutionary/superior military technologies.

You're confusing infrastructure with units. Infrastructures are used to build and maintain units, which are sent out to fight. The Klingons units took heavy losses during the period in which they alone held the line for the Alliance, but their infrastructure, consisting of their shipyards, mines, and factories were safely tucked away back in Klingon space. The same applied to the Romulans and the Federation, though the Federation, sharing the largest border area with the Cardassian/Dominion, suffered the most infrastructural damage ("One Little Ship", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Federation planets; "The Valiant", Jem'Hadar warships raiding Starfleet outposts). Still, none of the Alliance members had their infrastructure totalled the way Cardassian territory was.

I simply remember at the end of the war every empire was devastated, the Klingons the worse hit, and that it would take years for them all to rebuild. Also I remember the Dominion was at one time using the Nuetral Zone to attack the allies. From there, it could attack deeply into the both Klingon and Federation space. I am curious as to your source that you used to show what the borders where and how the war progressed.

Um, I'm actually basing this on statements made during DS9. Unfortunately, I can't give you the exact episodes, but I can assure you that the Obsedian Order was much more dangerous an organization than the Tal Shiar was. You'll have to ask around for the exact episodes and quotes, but they're there.

Better not be Garak. While I do remember that Garak might of said "The Obsedian was the best/among the best" I never recall anyone saying it was better than the Tal Shiar.

No argument about the Cardassians as a whole though, god I hate them. *recalls bitterly the first Federation/Cardassian War* But that does not mean the Obsedian Order isn't the most ruthless and effective intellegence organization among the Alpha Quadrant.

Indeed. All of the major empires have some admirable traits. The Federation has virtue, mercy, and diligence. The Klingons have honor, strength, and determination. The Romulans are professional, cunning, and have their own form of Bushido code (mnhei'sahe). The Cardassians are just thugs.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #105 on:** April 13, 2003, 09:00:03 am »

Garak doesn't like Romulans

I remember a statement of his the says:

Ah, Romulus.
How well I remember it.

You will find the predominant color to be gray.
The buildings. The clothes. The people.
Did you know that the Romulan heart itself is gray?
It's true.
And entirely appropriate for such an unimaginative race.

So don't trust what Garak says.

The Obsidian Order might be great, but it doesn't compare to the brutality of the Tal'Shiar

The Obsidian Order can be kept under control by Central Command

DavT, I'll reply to your post to me in a moment, it takes time to look up all the needed quotes

Tremok · « **Reply #107 on:** April 13, 2003, 11:38:22 am »

You will find the predominant color to be gray.
The buildings. The clothes. The people.
Did you know that the Romulan heart itself is gray?
It's true.
And entirely appropriate for such an unimaginative race.

As for Romulus, I found it to be rather pretty myself in Nemesis.

Tremok · « **Reply #108 on:** April 13, 2003, 11:57:27 am »

I seen the movie as well, and both ships looked green to me.

Well, they are in the Rift (a nebula). Weird lighting effects go on in those.

Tremok · « **Reply #109 on:** April 13, 2003, 12:02:04 pm »

RE: Scimitars cloak

Tachyons and anti-protons were mentioned. I remember it.

Now, can try to twist and spin the worlds all you want, but Geordi did say very clearly that the cloak was perfect, and that it could not be detected. Period.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #111 on:** April 13, 2003, 05:28:25 pm »

OK

Here was the discussion I saw about Galaxy class numbers

http://scn.infopop.net/0/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=526090832&f=9700964644&m=5460941135&p=1

Tremok · « **Reply #112 on:** April 13, 2003, 06:21:51 pm »

The ex-astris-scientia forums? *cringes*

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #113 on:** April 13, 2003, 07:08:31 pm »

:rolleyes:

I was using the information suggested based upon the facts suggested.

The ex-astris-scientia forums have about as good info as this one does

Tulmahk · « **Reply #115 on:** April 13, 2003, 07:34:18 pm »

Well, Tremok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally, I graduated from the War College. I suspect you graduated from the Academy. The Academy students get all the best propaganda (unlike us 'underpriviledged' Romulans who's only option for an education is the War College).

Being primed for membership in the Tal Shiar, are you? I suspect so. Only in the Tal Shiar's propaganda is there no political strife in the Star Empire (the whole senate gets wiped out, 2 Praetor's in a row get killed, and there is, according to you, no political strife? Ha! Propaganda of the highest order. And the Klingons a weakling empire? Well-bloodied, yes. Weakling? Never.)

Tremok · « **Reply #116 on:** April 13, 2003, 08:23:43 pm »

Well, Tremok, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Alteast try to disprove whatever points of mine you disagree with.

Personally, I graduated from the War College. I suspect you graduated from the Academy. The Academy students get all the best propaganda (unlike us 'underpriviledged' Romulans who's only option for an education is the War College).

I do not understand the point of this comment. I never made any claims of being more privilged of superior to anyone.

2 Praetor's in a row get killed,

One Praetor was killed by a person that was brutally supressed and subjucated by the Empire. He, with the help of the Military established himself Praetor. Then, the Enterprise, with the assitance of two Valdore types, gets killed himself.

and there is, according to you, no political strife? Ha! Propaganda of the highest order. And the Klingons a weakling empire?

They Remans and Shinzon certainly weren't happy. In the movie, Shinzon does say that Governments changes often enough, but it makes no mention of how the vast populace of the Empire felt about the old government before it was killed. We know Romulans strongly 'dislike' Remans, so they probably would be very unhappy having them rule of them. But then they, too, where killed off.

I cannont see anyone in postion to oppose them Romulan military right now: The old government is gone, the one that replaced that one is also gone. All that seems to be left is them. They might even be nice and establish a republic, or they might just assume all they power for themselves. Only time will tell.

Well-bloodied, yes. Weakling? Never.)

I never said the Klingons are weak, just that they where the empire that was hardest hit during the Dominion War. I even listed several admiral tributes that they have.

As for the Ferengi comment, that was just role play.

Edit: And PS, I do not like the Tal Shiar. I am more of a Donatra type Romulan, a Romulan that lives by mnhei'sahe.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #117 on:** April 13, 2003, 08:32:16 pm »

You may debate about where you grew up in the Star Empire

Myself, I'm a defector who commited suicide 5 years ago. I should have no knowledge of current Romulan ship capacity.

Alidar Jarok · « **Reply #119 on:** April 14, 2003, 08:30:03 pm »

I would put the Klingons in worse shape then the Romulans because it would require tremendous loss of life for a Klingon to overthrow their leader (Today is a good day to die)

You forgot who was hit the least (and yet the most)

The Dominion

Since loss of ships and soldiers means nothing, they came out fine.

The only problem was the founder's disease.

Depending on how much you value them, they could have been hit the worst.

Tremok · « **Reply #120 on:** April 14, 2003, 08:45:43 pm »

I don't care which is better, I hope there both dead.

Anyway, I find your summery of they empires conditions to be reasonable enough. You mentioned in the Romulan section that there fleets appeared to take 'considerabe losses'.

While no doubt all the empires took considerable losses, I don't remember seeing that many Romulans ships loss; certainly nothing compared to the Federation or Klingons.

In the Battle of Chin'Toka we saw the orbital platforms destroy one or two Warbirds. In the retreat from Chin'Toka (enter the Breens), we saw a burning Warbrid wreck.

In What You Leave Behind we hear the Romulan flagship gets destroy and there line is struggling.

Make no mistake, they Romulans relied on a relatively small number of highly powerful warships to get the job done. They didn't have as many ships as the Federation/Klingons did, and couldn't afford to take the same number of losses.

In fact, we rarelly see the Romulan Warbirds in action during the big fleet battles. But still, I don't remember seeing very many Warbirds getting blown away.

Davey E · « **Reply #121 on:** April 17, 2003, 03:47:37 pm »

To me the whole DS9 series was good action, but a complete joke from a Stellar Cartagraphy point of view

Its has been said that "Betazed" was the furthest the Dominion pushed into Federation space,
However we also heard that the Romulans liberated "Benzar"
Now i for one do not see how this could of happened, "Benzar" is LY away from Cardassian space, Much much further away than Earth
I do now believe anyway that the Dominion would of been able to take and hold "Benzar" without any kind of supply

If you manage to get hold of the ST Star Charts Book, that was endorsed by Paramount, You,ll see what i mean

The truth is that the Domionion would of had to travel LY across Federation space to attack Romulan or Klingon Space

I remember at the end of the War, The Federation Alliance launched their attack on Cardassian space from Deep Space 375 which is not far from "Trill"
Now "Trill" would of been a much more accessable target for the Dominion that "Benzar" or "Bolarus", and a much more
winable scenario

Tremok · « **Reply #122 on:** April 17, 2003, 04:41:31 pm »

Speaking of the Star Charts book, I went to the other day to Barns and Noble. Didn't see any copies.

News:

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Topic: Fate of the Valdore (Read 21548 times)