Topic: Planning OP+ shiplist 2.1 .. controversial?

[FireSoul]

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So, are we thinking  the Z-XCA deserves 52 power? 54? 56? I'd opt for 52 and see how that flies, then up it if needed. Certainly I see no reason why an X1 would have more power than an X2 of the same race. FS, could this possibly be asked in the testers' forum?

Of course, this is all speculative without test results. Now I wish I were at home where my OP is.  

What we really need is someone to change it and play it against another player a few times..
.. and tell me how it went. It shouldn't be OTT, nor underpowered.

-- Luc

[jdmckinney]

And, yes, I agree with FireSoul's stance on OP+ being a list based on SFB and not a testbed. Maybe with good testing results, the Z-XCA could be redesigned and even submitted to Taldren for consideration. Or, maybe FS would consider changing it in his list if he felt a revised one necessary. Bottom line, it's his list. People are certainly free to make their own custom lists.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

I understand all of that, Luc.  I wasn't suggesting you would.  We have gone off on a minor tangent.


As far as the E-rack on 1st generation x-ships, it seems proper to use them as a reasonable approximation of the CX rack.  I can see not fault in this logic.  Anyone?


 

[FireSoul]

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H-XCA - 60 power
L-XCA- 56 Power
K-XCA - 56 Power
F-XCA - 56 Power
I-XCA - 53 Power
G-XCA - 52 Power
R-XCA- 52 Power
Z-XCA- 42 Power

Z-CCX - 52 Power!

Wow. That seems pretty bad, but you know what else looks bad? The Plasma races get less power than the Klingons and Federation, who have drones on board. Since drones don't cost any power to use, I could understand a Mirak having less power because they have fewer energy-draining weapons, but then the Fed and Klingon ships should also be lower than they are now using that rationale, though their X-heavies do cost power wheras the MIRV doesn't. As an experiment, has anyone tried giving ALL XCAs 56 power, except the Hydran 60 (though I'm not clear why theirs would be so high, unless it's due to hold costs)? Or, try the 52-53 range?  

True, however most know that the Gorn XCA is the best in the game too.  I think its just a matter of balancing these ships a little more, and I wish Firesoul or somebody could do this based on SFB instead of Taldrens weird approach to the X2 ships. Hence my reasoning that trying to put another heavy weapon on a Mirak ship, would just exagerate the power problem even more.  I think Taldren just felt they had to give the Mirak a cut somewhere, with the introduction of the all powerfull Mirv in the game.  If you remember, the Mirv was the most feared weapon in the forums when the game first came out and everyone was complaining about the Mirak X2 ships.  After awhile, everyone learned drone defense and this arguement went away leaving the Mirak far behind in the X2 level.  

Based on SFB? .. I truncate the shiplist and toss these out if this was based on SFB.  
.. but .. OP+ .. it's an enhancement to the stock shiplist. The idea is to preserve anything that is unique to SFC..


.. see.. I tossed out the X1 ships thinking no one would mind or notice if I replaced them with the real ones. I didn't realize the Z-CCX was that much better than the Z-XCA. It's reappearance as the Z-CCX2 will fix that problem, I would think.


-- Luc

[FireSoul]

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I understand all of that, Luc.  I wasn't suggesting you would.  We have gone off on a minor tangent.
As far as the E-rack on 1st generation x-ships, it seems proper to use them as a reasonable approximation of the CX rack.  I can see not fault in this logic.  Anyone?
 

The CX rack is a C rack with 3 reloads. Simple, eh?
.. how many drones are in a E rack? How fast does it reload exactly? .

-- Luc

[Kortez]

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Kortez, I didn't mean to imply you should yell at the wife or anything, but rather that I'd be inclined toward drooling and banging my head against a wall like the stereotypical movie nuthouse resident. Think restraints and heavy medication. Of course, I'm just joking anyway. I don't envy you this particular misfortune.  

Thanks, but, ... I already do that when I look at Kzinti ships and see that none of our advatages CAN carry over from SFB to SFC2.   NO special mines, no special drones, no ships with more than 16 fighters.   To me, SFB portrays the Kzin as if they were the dumbest idiots ever to live.  We kill each other we get bashed into almost non-existence by never ending Klingon and Lyran attacks, the Feds give us tidbits to amuse ourselves and them with, and we fly garbage scows.

Where is that wall?
 

Things are tough all over, mah brutha.  We Klingons get to play the part of the Evil Empire (Soviets).  We all know how that worked out...heheh.

Nor are you the Hydran's bitch in Early Era PvP.


At least your people aren't shown constantly being defeated or made into charicatures on the various weekly Star Trek dramatic series.  


 

I don't care how we are portrayed.  I only care about the ships we fly, since this is not a RPG bro :P muahahahahahaha
 

[FireSoul]

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And, yes, I agree with FireSoul's stance on OP+ being a list based on SFB and not a testbed. Maybe with good testing results, the Z-XCA could be redesigned and even submitted to Taldren for consideration. Or, maybe FS would consider changing it in his list if he felt a revised one necessary. Bottom line, it's his list. People are certainly free to make their own custom lists.  

Thanks Nomad. You said it well..
.. if a balanced better version of the invented version is decided on, I might go for it.

.. but!!
- the SFB ships are going to stay as-is.. any correction would be to SFBize it.
- the invented ships from Taldren are to be left alone.. unless corrections are really needed.
- any other invented ships except from official SFB printed modules or material will be turned down.
- ships from new modules coming out will be.. weighed for balance. An exmaple is J2 based ships..  .. unbalances the shiplist towards non-PF races.
- the original Taldren fighters will remain.. no additional fighters added.
  - note that I copied the fighters' data from empires to pirate races, but they're the same fighters.
  - note that I have accepted raising the cost of the Killerbee.I and will make appropriate BPV adjustments in the shiplist.



strict, isn't it? These above are all about ship additions tho, not balance.

-- Luc

[KBF-Dogmatix]

The E-rack is, in effect, a B-rack that loads as fast as a C-rack.


If you can somehow address the "problem" with adding reloads to the stock C-rack, I suppose that's fine.


Incidentally...that raises a question.  The D5DR in your shiplist is the same as a D5D, but supposedly has extra "reloads."  How is this manifested?  I see no difference between it and the stock D5D in terms of systems, maximum drone load (90) or the "free refills" (36)  you get after a mission.   What have I missed?





 

[FireSoul]

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The E-rack is, in effect, a B-rack that loads as fast as a C-rack.


If you can somehow address the "problem" with adding reloads to the stock C-rack, I suppose that's fine.


Incidentally...that raises a question.  The D5DR in your shiplist is the same as a D5D, but supposedly has extra "reloads."  How is this manifested?  I see no difference between it and the stock D5D in terms of systems, maximum drone load (90) or the "free refills" (36)  you get after a mission.   What have I missed?
 

For a player, there is no difference.
For a generated AI, which is ALWAYS created stock, that exrta reload means a scatter pack.. and many more firing chances.

-- Luc

[Rod O'neal]

[quote

Wow. That seems pretty bad, but you know what else looks bad? The Plasma races get less power than the Klingons and Federation, who have drones on board. Since drones don't cost any power to use, I could understand a Mirak having less power because they have fewer energy-draining weapons, but then the Fed and Klingon ships should also be lower than they are now using that rationale, though their X-heavies do cost power wheras the MIRV doesn't. As an experiment, has anyone tried giving ALL XCAs 56 power, except the Hydran 60 (though I'm not clear why theirs would be so high, unless it's due to hold costs)? Or, try the 52-53 range?  



The Hydrans get more power in SFB because all of their weapons use power, unlike the drone races, including rearming their fighter's fusions and hellbores


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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[quote

Wow. That seems pretty bad, but you know what else looks bad? The Plasma races get less power than the Klingons and Federation, who have drones on board. Since drones don't cost any power to use, I could understand a Mirak having less power because they have fewer energy-draining weapons, but then the Fed and Klingon ships should also be lower than they are now using that rationale, though their X-heavies do cost power wheras the MIRV doesn't. As an experiment, has anyone tried giving ALL XCAs 56 power, except the Hydran 60 (though I'm not clear why theirs would be so high, unless it's due to hold costs)? Or, try the 52-53 range?  

The Hydrans get more power in SFB because all of their weapons use power, unlike the drone races, including rearming their fighter's fusions and hellbores


   



Which never run out.  

One thing people seem to always omit is that:

#1  Drones are finite

#2 One can always offline fusions if his hellbores aren't charging, and visa versa.



What does a Klingon do when his dizzies won't charge?  Turn them off.  


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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The E-rack is, in effect, a B-rack that loads as fast as a C-rack.


If you can somehow address the "problem" with adding reloads to the stock C-rack, I suppose that's fine.


Incidentally...that raises a question.  The D5DR in your shiplist is the same as a D5D, but supposedly has extra "reloads."  How is this manifested?  I see no difference between it and the stock D5D in terms of systems, maximum drone load (90) or the "free refills" (36)  you get after a mission.   What have I missed?
 

For a player, there is no difference.
For a generated AI, which is ALWAYS created stock, that exrta reload means a scatter pack.. and many more firing chances.

-- Luc  

Ah..okay...so the "R" refit in this case is useless to the player.  How, then, would you deal with this reload factor in lieu of instituting E-racks so that it would be useful to an actual player?

 

[FireSoul]

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The E-rack is, in effect, a B-rack that loads as fast as a C-rack.


If you can somehow address the "problem" with adding reloads to the stock C-rack, I suppose that's fine.


Incidentally...that raises a question.  The D5DR in your shiplist is the same as a D5D, but supposedly has extra "reloads."  How is this manifested?  I see no difference between it and the stock D5D in terms of systems, maximum drone load (90) or the "free refills" (36)  you get after a mission.   What have I missed?
 

For a player, there is no difference.
For a generated AI, which is ALWAYS created stock, that exrta reload means a scatter pack.. and many more firing chances.

-- Luc  

Ah..okay...so the "R" refit in this case is useless to the player.  How, then, would you deal with this reload factor in lieu of instituting E-racks so that it would be useful to an actual player?

 

Easy. The E racks are supposed to be Drones type IV racks only. These drones are supposed to have a life of 12 hexes, no more. I will NOT put E racks in. Especially if just because players want them.
Sorry guys, I didn't have to think hard about that one. The E rack was never even a topic I asked about in this thread either.

-- Luc

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Well, it's part and parcel of the discussion about the 1st generation Mirak X-ship, in which you've been taking part, nes pas?


As for the rest of your post, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying other than you're not putting them in, no way, no how (which I get).  

[FireSoul]

Oh.

Ok.. if ever I changed my mind and decided that X1 ships should have the correct loadouts .. that over the importance of the correct weaponry displayed, I would then use B racks for the GX, and E racks for the CX.

.. but I use the G and C racks as is, with 3 reloads instead of 2 as per SFB on the stock ship. I found the aestatics.. the look and feel, to be important.

-- Luc

[Corbomite]

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H-XCA - 60 power
L-XCA- 56 Power
K-XCA - 56 Power
F-XCA - 56 Power
I-XCA - 53 Power
G-XCA - 52 Power
R-XCA- 52 Power
Z-XCA- 42 Power
 

Where did you get these numbers? The X2 ships are as follows:

H-XCA - 66 power

L-XCA - 62 power

K-XCA - 62 power

F-XCA - 58 power

I-XCA - 60 power

G-XCA - 58 power

R-XCA - 59 power

Z-XCA - 48 power

The Z-CCX has 57 power, not 52.

Seems to me the simplest solution is to make the Mirak X2 ships have 56-58 power and they would be fine. They don't need more because they don't have the Heavy Dizzys or Phaser B's to hold, which is why the Klingons have so much. The Lyrans have the ESG Lance to charge as well as the regular ESG and Phaser B's so same story with them. With the new HB charging and holding costs the Hydrans should be trimmed back a bit except for the XCB. The ISC got nothing new, just more of what they had and some Phaser A/B's, even still they are slow, but pack a punch. The Feds have the best long range weapon in the game so they don't need any more power even though they are underpowered for what they pack. E and X Plasma aren't that expensive to hold and other Plasma can be downgraded if power is needed, so the Roms and Gorn are fine.


 

[Fluf]

Sorry FS, but I hate the G rack.  Taldren never fixed it as they should have and could have.  I know you are doing your shiplist based on SFB and I salute you for that.  But unfortunately, SFB doesnt always translate to SFC in a balanced way.  All we were doing was giving you an alternative that seemed a logical progression to the Kzin X1 ships.  The only problem is that if your shiplist is used as the standard shiplist in OP play on a particular server, this could be a problem.

But your right, any admin can change and do the shiplist as he wants, so I guess this is a moot point.  Thanks for all your hard work.  

[FireSoul]

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Sorry FS, but I hate the G rack.  Taldren never fixed it as they should have and could have.  I know you are doing your shiplist based on SFB and I salute you for that.  But unfortunately, SFB doesnt always translate to SFC in a balanced way.  All we were doing was giving you an alternative that seemed a logical progression to the Kzin X1 ships.  The only problem is that if your shiplist is used as the standard shiplist in OP play on a particular server, this could be a problem.

But your right, any admin can change and do the shiplist as he wants, so I guess this is a moot point.  Thanks for all your hard work.    

A lot of people hate the G rack.
.. but I have adopted it as a rule for this shiplist. .. it's .. well.. very SFC like.
-- Luc

[Kortez]

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Wow. That seems pretty bad, but you know what else looks bad? The Plasma races get less power than the Klingons and Federation, who have drones on board. Since drones don't cost any power to use, I could understand a Mirak having less power because they have fewer energy-draining weapons, but then the Fed and Klingon ships should also be lower than they are now using that rationale, though their X-heavies do cost power wheras the MIRV doesn't. As an experiment, has anyone tried giving ALL XCAs 56 power, except the Hydran 60 (though I'm not clear why theirs would be so high, unless it's due to hold costs)? Or, try the 52-53 range?  

The Hydrans get more power in SFB because all of their weapons use power, unlike the drone races, including rearming their fighter's fusions and hellbores


   



Come on!  The Mirak X heavies are horrible pieces of junk.  You try flying one and you will see.  Good luck cruising around at about speed 15.

And yes, this is FS's shiplist, and he can do what he wants with it.  I can tell you this, though, since I know the Mirak are going to get the worst x-ships by far, I cannot imagine any reason to fly Mirak unless you just like sacrificing yourself so everybody else can have a good old time at your expense.

 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

You know what you should do, Kortez.  Nevermind flying Mirak wishing you have Klingon tools.  Just fly Klingon, mah brutha!  


I know that isn't the point, but it's a thought!