Topic: I sincerely apologise... (Read 16225 times)

DONOTDELETE · « **on:** May 04, 2003, 11:17:25 pm »

I sincerely apologise to all the respectable D2 players out there
but I can no longer participate in this community.

Taldren's tacit approval of claims of right-wing superiority is disgusting.
The composition of the moderating team is all you need to know.

The OT forums have to go.

If anyone is interested in seeing my return to the D2 and to continue
development of D2 enhancements, then petition Taldren to remove
the OT forums and ban Stormbringer, Sirgod, Sethan, Mentat John,
and all the other right wing bastards who continually demean and
insult anyone of differing opinion. Before everyone tells me that it
is sad that I cannot seperate political opinions from a game (yes it is)
This is a case of I will no longer support a company who approves
of and allows the continual slander of the left.

I presented the hideous and deadly flaws of capitalist democracy
to them multiple times and they simply could not refute them. Instead
they have reduced me to their level of insults and violence.
Additionally, I have come to realise that the american right can only
understand violence. Blood is their mother tounge.

I realise this is not likely to happen at all, so this is goodbye.

(As well as the fact that I will not likely survive my meeting
with Stormbringer or will be arrested trying to get there...)

KATChuutRitt · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2003, 11:37:18 pm »

Raj,

I think what is needed here is levelheadedness.

First, abandon the meeting with Stormbringer, Violence is useless, it won't solve anything. Such a meeting is not worth anyone's time and energy.

Second, Ignore any trolling in the OT forum. If a participant in that forums posts anger you and appear to be misinformed or derrogatory, just let them go. If they are so blind to another perspective why waste your breath, they are not your congressmen or lawmakers, their opinions represent 1 vote just as yours does.

As far as the moderators, I suggest contacting them about your concerns. If no action is taken so be it. If a lack of action makes you withdraw from the game, that is your personal decision, but I would suggest taking a break from the forums for a while and see if the anger dissapates.

But, if you decide after a time that you are not comfortable with the forums and Taldren in general, it is definately understandable if you choose to leave. I will be sad to see you go, but if you decide this is best I wish you well.

HOWEVER I can never support an action to seek out any form of meaningless violence whatever the cause and whoever the instigator is, this is just plain stupid and damages our society. Use your vote to state your political opinions not physical violence, nor encourage or give opportunity for others do do so.

So take a deep breath and realize that what someone types on a forum is not so important in the grand scheme of things, and get on with your life sans anger....it just isn't worth being mad about.

Soreyes · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2003, 11:40:27 pm »

LOL ROTFLMAO.... This has got to be a Joke Right?
Ban Sethen, Mentat, and Sirgod.

Oh please spare us yor Indignity. Lets bring back Foo Fighters at least he's got the Testecular fortatude(sp) to take as good as he gave.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2003, 12:01:52 am »

The dude threatened to track me (down in RL and put me face down in a pool of my own blood sight unseen and then got indignant when I told him to come on down if he was feeling froggy and the police wouldn't even get the chance to arrest him for terroristic threats and assault. I did not realize he was unhinged. Soldiers don't take kindly to threats and I was less than cordial in my reply (to put it mildly). He made threats to other forum members as well. I'd assumed he would calm down or take his meds or whatever and all would be well. Alas, it was not so. My apologies as well to all who bore witness to this. He may be suicidal and needs looking after, but I can think of no way to effectively do that now. I understand some may have coorespondence with him due to his positive activities in the community. If so you might want to check in on him.

KATChuutRitt · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2003, 12:11:04 am »

Well, whatever happened,

This just shows how counter-productive all flame wars are, no matter how innocently they start.

I would ask all forum members to be polite in all their posts and positions and respectful of others rights to express their own opinions. You dont have to agree, just be polite. If someone starts fanning the flames, bury it in good natured post and kill it with civilized manners and not sarcasm and rudeness. I'm not trying to justify anyones actions here, far from it, just asking that all the members of the community learn a lesson here and try to act like intelligent and well-mannered people.

Scipio_66 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2003, 12:31:47 am »

Quote:

Posted by anonymous, unregistered
I sincerely apologise to all the respectable D2 players out there
but I can no longer participate in this community.

The "do things my way or I'm leaving" threat gets used too often around here. If you want to stay, then stay! If you want to leave, then you wasted your time making one more post to a place you don't want to visit anymore. Why put yourself through the torture?

Quote:

The OT forums have to go.

They are off topic for a reason. They are the hangouts of both whackos (my opinion) like Arabman, The Turbaned Menace, I TYPE THE FACTS, and of more sensible denzins after reasoned debate like....... well, like most others. A place where good pups and bad dogs may walk side by side. Why are you letting an off-topic forum bum you out about a D2 project?

Quote:

If anyone is interested in seeing my return to the D2

If you want to stay, you'll stay. If you want to leave, you'll leave. There is nougt I can do about it, or even would if I could. The world will keep revolving either way.

Quote:

then petition Taldren to remove
the OT forums and ban Stormbringer, Sirgod, Sethan, Mentat John,
and all the other right wing bastards who continually demean and
insult anyone of differing opinion.

<spit take> <choke> <cough> Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were having a joke here. I'd never seen the name "Sethan" and the phrase "demean and insult" used in the same post before (let alone the same sentence).

Quote:

I presented the hideous and deadly flaws of capitalist democracy
to them multiple times and they simply could not refute them. Instead
they have reduced me to their level of insults and violence.

Ah, I see your boggle. You have chosen to embrace socialism -- an intrinsically repressive system that refuses to allow one ownership of even his own basic thoughts -- rather than God's own system of blissful capitalism -- which allows you to rely upon your own industriousness and rewards you according to your own efforts. Hmmmmm..... but I guess I'd best take the rest of this train of thought back to the OT forum.

But you make your major mistake with your second sentence. All forums -- OT and D2 -- are simply electronic words on an internet site. There is no one who can MAKE you threaten another with violence while in a political discussion. That rage comes from your own heart and your own soul.

Don't ask for others to be banned because you can't control your own impulses. If you can't play nicely in the OT forum, just don't play. Political discussions are usually verboten in the D2 forum, so here might be a safer place for you to have fun. But again, that's YOUR decision, and no one else should play any role in it.

-S'Cipio

Harold Nez · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2003, 12:49:05 am »

Erm, ya. I feel some of what you are saying. There are a lot of geeks and pedophiles (I'm not suggesting the people you named are either--why name people anyway?) in the OT Forum, making the whole experience a bit recalcitrant--but hey that is the internet. If you do not like it, do not click on that forum. If you focus your energy on improving the game like you say, then just ignore the people that piss you off and graciously accept the praise from people who are, or will be, happy with your efforts. Stay cool.

gornrule · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2003, 06:56:21 am »

<whistle>

UNsportsmanlike conduct - number 52, 34,12, 16,72,78, and 90 of the Red Team

Unsportmanslike conduct - number 18, 33,65,71, and 94 of the Blue Team.

Number 71 has been ejected from the game.

The penalties offset. Replay the down.

J'inn · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2003, 08:42:36 am »

I figured OT meant stuff like basic computer questions, question about other games, science fiction stuff beyond Trek, etc. Debates on Isreal, abortion, gun laws, etc???? On Taldren, off topic or not??? Seems weird, and of course a source of flame. Oh well, Taldren's boards I guess. Does seem odd though. I don't really go to other game forums. Do all of them have a super off topic forum like Taldren??

Dizzy · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2003, 08:47:17 am »

I have a continuing SARS thread there... I go for the latest news. As soon as something controversial, ppl start talking about it... Its more entertaining than watching Bill O'Riely.. hehe.

Maxillius · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2003, 09:04:03 am »

hmm... rajnsaj is gone, eh? Guess we won't be seeing his name in yellow for a while by the looks of things...

jdmckinney · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2003, 09:42:41 am »

I personally don't frequent the OT forum regularly, simply because it seems such a flamefest and obvious source of problems. The first thread I posted in since the move to the new forums was one about last week's Enterprise episode. That seemed like, on the whole, a good topic, even allowing for minor flames and conflicts in opinion about social issues.

If it were me running this board (thankfully it's not!), I'd remove 90% of what gets put up in the OT forum. It's just begging to cause trouble and get people banned. I mean, if running this board can be such a headache to the Taldren folks who've had to deal with it, why foster an environment that causes still more headaches?

If people want to debate politics or current events, aren't there plenty of forums to visit designed for that purpose?

jimmi7769 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2003, 09:50:23 am »

"Some people you just can't reach....and you get what we have right here....A Failure to communicate......."

If a rabid dog heads your way all the hugs and kisses aren't going to do you any good at all.
It's a dangerous world out there and some people just need to open their eyes.

Anonymous, you won't be missed.

Kortez · « **Reply #15 on:** May 05, 2003, 09:57:04 am »

KOTH's official stance is this entire situation is regrettable. I wish it could be resolved peacefully and without damage to the community. We do not support violence of any kind, save what can be done in the context of the GAME to our honorable opponents.

Other than that, I refuse to get into a political discussion outside of the OFF-TOPIC forum. There will be no replies to the comments above except what has been said. KOTH has always got along well with Rajnsaj and will be sorry to see him go, if that is what, indeed, occurs.

Peace!

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #16 on:** May 05, 2003, 10:19:05 am »

Taldrens entire purpose for creating the OT forum in the first place was so that things of this sort would wind up here... and NOT clogging up the general SFC forums, or the D2/3 forums, etc. Taldren employees like to have their debates just as much as some of the others out there, and I daresay that the CEO of Taldren has given at least ONE huge example of being oriented to the LEFT, not the right. (no offense Erik, but Im talking about the infamous "drill the [censored] out of Anwhar" comment, rofl!) That seems to erase the argument about Taldrens support of the idea of "Right-Wing superiority", does it not?

I stopped coming in here, as I get mad far too quickly and take the crap personally.

The idea that the OT forum should be moderated or policed similar to the standard forums is silly. They were put here to allow people to "LET IT ROCK" so to speak, with virtually no supervision or intervention.

The old adage holds true, "If you dont like what you hear on the radio/tv/chatroom, CHANGE THE CHANNEL!"

Fortunately, Taldren restricts the flame wars 95% to this room, although some of the Church of Taldren "Blue Shirts" are a bit quick to delete posts by those they dont agree with anywhere they see them, offensive or not...

Have a nice day, and remember its only a game!

EDIT: WTF? Damn, either someone is REALLY fast on the edit button, or they have an auto-censor on the forums now? Heh, if it is an automatic one, shows ya how long its been since I used "offensive" dirdy wurds. But uh, if that was a human, that WAS an EXACT, VERBATIM quote from Erik Bethke.

OFW!

EDIT2: Hey, this ISNT the OT room, this is D2. Well, replace references to HERE with THERE.

Karnak · « **Reply #17 on:** May 05, 2003, 10:30:01 am »

Rajnsaj,

I think you should consider taking a couple of weeks off from the Taldren forums. You may may want to consider hanging out in the Koth forums where you know you can trust the posters during this "cooling off" period. Then you'll know if you want to come back and you will also be able to set a few personal ground-rules regarding what poster behavior you will accept plus what you will do about it. There's a lot of other games out there to move onto if you are still unhappy. It would be sad if you did move on though cuz you are a talented SQL DBA, PHP scripter and Java guy and you still work for free.

You do the Koth fleet great credit with the generous manner in which you apply you skills to D2.

As for the violence threats that's illegal so don't think it much less do it cuz you will regret it for the rest of your life. If you need to talk, you know where to reach me.

Harold Nez · « **Reply #18 on:** May 05, 2003, 10:31:33 am »

Right now, the OT Forum is creating too many bad feelings. Bearslayer, okay my initial statement was a bit hyperbolic. Yet, I'm not going to name names, but about a month ago, whether in jest or not, one poster did write "I like little boys, anyway". In no way is that funny. That's why I no longer go to the OT Forum regularly. I'm sure tons of good-spirited, funny things come from the OT Forum. But, plenty of bad and disgusting stuff does too. And what does it cause? Things like this. Yet, I don't think calling in the thought police is the answer either. Perhaps a bit more active moderating? Peace.

KRolling · « **Reply #19 on:** May 05, 2003, 10:40:47 am »

Huh??? There's an Off Topic forum here????

What else could one possibly talk about other than Star Trek games, Star Trek episodes, Star Trek movies, and Star Trek characters??? What else IS there???!!!!

Oh, well, maybe Rolling Pins.... But they are Star Trek issued Rolling Pins.

Ravenstar · « **Reply #20 on:** May 05, 2003, 10:53:31 am »

Keep those Krolling Pins coming.....I didn't mean that!!...please no MARP this time......

Ravenstar

KRolling · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2003, 11:09:19 am »

That's Star Fleet Issued Rolling Pins.... (SFIRP)

DarkElf · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2003, 01:50:56 pm »

I am sorry to see you go, rajnsaj. You were a very positive part of this community. I will definately miss you.

What could you possibly accomplish by threatening other people with different views than yours?
That removes all validity in any opinions you had. Asking for everyone who has a different stance than you to be banned was also very selfish. You accomplished nothing. I am rather shocked; I always thought you to be a rational person...this was a waste. I'm a rather sad, because you will not be around anymore, even more sad because of the circumstances.

I care not about anyones policial view, race, color or religion here. This is a game for crying outloud! We are here to have fun, and I have said it before many times. People seem to forget what this game is about and why we are here. Leave your problems at the door and have some fun!

I REFUSE to lose another person of this community again over something so stupid! Rajnsaj is gone, and banned as well. All we can do now is learn from this and make sure this doesn't occur again.

BTW, Yesterday was my first visit to the Off Topic Forum. It will also be my last visit there, I didn't like what I saw.

JMM · « **Reply #26 on:** May 05, 2003, 02:44:39 pm »

Did I miss something while I was gone over the holiday weekend? Pray tell, tell me everything? Did we have ANOTHER person banned? I guess that I'm next then...

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #28 on:** May 06, 2003, 08:44:58 am »

Damn....ya know....I pointed out the 55 gallon drums of fuel by the door...I showed ya where the firesuit rack was....I told ya we used candles for lighting....

And I sepecificly told you this fact....

Whats is said in the OT forum....stays in the OT forum....

Its a very simple unwritten rule to live by...

Never confuse someones world view....with someones love of SFC....

When you tell someone they will lie in a pool of their own blood.....you must also include the term "Federation P'tok" and use a smiley

I would also add....that 99.9 of us follow that unwritten rule...

JMM · « **Reply #29 on:** May 06, 2003, 11:42:05 am »

Not to justify Raj or his political beliefs, I will admit he made a killer download switch program that made it easy for us non file swappers. I shall miss him and his contributions. Politics aside, he was a good hearted person in my book.

Fluf · « **Reply #30 on:** May 06, 2003, 11:45:19 am »

I have to agree with you JM, Rajnsaj bent over backwards for this community, and his talents will be missed.

Maxillius · « **Reply #31 on:** May 06, 2003, 11:51:51 am »

Just too bad he couldn't keep his temper reigned in. Gotta stop drinkin the Mt. Dew there, worked for me.

KOTH-Steel Claw · « **Reply #33 on:** May 06, 2003, 12:05:21 pm »

What Kieran just said.

Maxillius · « **Reply #37 on:** May 06, 2003, 12:53:50 pm »

Hence the reason why you won't find many free-topic forums of the nature of our OT forum. They're horribly hard to moderate, usually huge flame fests fed by nothing (or everything) in particular, and generally a headache for the rest of the community, whatever it is. Taldren knew what they were getting into when they created OT, so if they want it there, that's the end of it. Ours is so full because it's the only one I've found since the destruction of Anti-Social.com (and I swear I saw Don Dawson there) 4 years ago. I loved those forums, and they were a helluva lot more hostile than our OT is (and hopefully will ever be). They even had a separate 'Rant' section for the propane-fed flame fests. Too bad the guy ran out of money or I'd post a link over in OT to take their anger there every week or so. I think he still sells the T-shirts at Rhubarb.com, so if someone wanted to help the world out by recreating the sole anger vent I so sorely miss, that would be the place to start.

EDIT: I don't know what they're trying to do now, but it's quite obviously not what it was 4 years ago!!

Kroma_BaSyl · « **Reply #38 on:** May 06, 2003, 01:26:04 pm »

Well I for one am sick and tired of all the tutuphobic, neo-nazi, communist trying to keep a good Gorn down. If Taldren doesn't ban all the tutu haters I swear I will take the tutu off. Then the real flaming will begin.

J'inn · « **Reply #43 on:** May 06, 2003, 02:17:39 pm »

I tend to agree with ya Karnack in concept, i.e., that a line needs to be drawn and that people who cross it should be asked to chill out. In execution (irony unintended), i.e., where the line is drawn, I think we differ. This is not to say that I don't see your point. I do.

I look for the benefit of the type of post (as opposed to the particular post) and think about whether those types of posts' gasoline potential are outweighed by their potential benefit to the goal. Two goals, in fact, enjoyment of the Taldren games by the players; and, Taldren making dough.

Based on that I feel that purely political posts offer the following:

1) Very little to enjoyment of the games. Some enjoy it, some don't. But it's removal would have little effect on game enjoyment as a whole.

2) Zilch for sales.

But this in and of it's self doesn't bother me. It's when you factor in the large potential for political posts to start a flame war that I get concerned.

Again, all academic. I just find this kind of stuff interesting. Well that and I think Raj's leaving has to some degree damaged the future quality of the game. Not by a huge amount of course, but the theory of a death by a thousand cuts worries me.

All in all, minor issues in one's life, but I have a little spare time so what the hell.

FPF_TraceyG · « **Reply #45 on:** May 06, 2003, 02:52:31 pm »

Section 31 has discovered new intel regarding the OT forum.

Kroma Basyl: Undercover agent and one of Chuut's Angels
Assignment: To bring peace in our time to the OT forum
Mission Synopsis: Suicide bomber, with a tutu strapped around his waste, Kroma sneaks into the OT forum at night, whilst the combatants are resting for the next day's flame war. There, he announces his alleigiance to the great Chocadile God in a very loud voice waking everyone and when he has their attention, he detonates the device he is carrying, and <shudder> off comes the tutu! Fortunately, those that survive won't live for very long.
The carnage, the devestation, this Weapon of Mass Destruction has be known to exist for some time now, yet our countries keep stockpiling them.

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #46 on:** May 06, 2003, 04:50:23 pm »

Again I have to point out that the OT forums are there for ANY and ALL types of posts, be they political, religious (which is uber-political in function), whatever. Thats why there are there.

Any posts of these nature should however be quickly moved to the OT forum from any other forum where they are posted, UNLESS they somehow have an identifiable and justifiable connection to the forum they are being used in.

example: IF, taking into account the fact that in the "Are you a snob?" thread it appears that the biggest group of snobs are those who fly roms, the Federal Government were to suggest a bill that raises the taxes on all rom pilots, then I would think that allowing roms and all others to agree/disagee with this proposed bill would be of prime concern in ALL SFC forums.

However, putting out a post that says, for example, "Teddy Kennedy shouldnt be allowed to drive near water ever again" in any forum but the OT forum would require its removal to the OT forum.

My 2 fingers of saurian brandys worth.

Have a nice day!

J'inn · « **Reply #49 on:** May 06, 2003, 06:21:14 pm »

Good post Hondo. It states the opposing view well. I continue to feel that political posts (for lack of a better term that isn't too long) cause more trouble than they are worth for these games.

CptCastrin · « **Reply #50 on:** May 06, 2003, 06:22:49 pm »

I hate putting on my moderator hat (don't fit right anyway) but ...

This thread started as an appology to the D2 community. From that point it has swung from humorous to serious OT-like commentary.

As such, people, I say let it (the thread) die or someone (possibly me) will be forced to move it to the OT forum as the current "discusion" has no bearing on D2 as such.

Peace out.

Green · « **Reply #53 on:** May 06, 2003, 06:50:06 pm »

deleted ... as requested.

man you guys type fast ... there had to be 4 posts (to include Castrin's) made in the time I typed it

LongTooth · « **Reply #59 on:** May 06, 2003, 07:26:51 pm »

Umm if you had a post in the off topic fourm about the off topic fourm would that not then make it a on topic post there for out of place

Green · « **Reply #60 on:** May 06, 2003, 07:31:30 pm »

WHAT!

I thought we were gonna try to kill this thread? I wrote a 20 minute disertation to Hondo where I brought up calm counter-points and discussion points! Then I come out and see a request to let the matter rest or move to the OT. I agreed and deleted the post!

Well ... I'm a bit upset and won't bother retyping for another 20 minutes (okay, yeah, so it was only 35 words, but give me a break). So instead I shall now counter Hondo's points in a more simple manner.....

I hope you lie in a pool of your own blood (hmmm, I read somewhere what I'm suppose to type in here next ... oh yeah, that's it) "Federation P'tok"

jimmi7769 · « **Reply #62 on:** May 06, 2003, 10:35:23 pm »

The Thread That Wouldn't Die.....Part 7,356 Coming to a Game Forum near you!!!

Mavolic · « **Reply #63 on:** May 07, 2003, 01:45:12 am »

I'm sorry how is an Off-Topic forum bad for a gamesite?

I don't expect people on any message board to agree 100% with anything I say, regardless were it's posted.

Personaly Raj got what he brought on himself. Maybe he was a "nice" guy around here, but why does the OT forum have to take the brunt of the blame? Ummm..here's a thought, maybe we should *gasp* blame Raj?

If someone draws negitive attention to themselves on the OT forum, then I say it's for the good that we know what demon lies inside that person. I'm sure there were a lot serial killers that were "nice" guys.

I spend 99.9% of my time on the Off-Topic forum, and enjoy reading it everyday. A lot of us that play this game like a good debate, and we can stomache the flame-fest, mostly because we are all veterens in being in them. If it offends more delicate people, just stay out of there.

Oh and before you go rating the OT forum as crap, try hanging around there reading the post, making replys and see what goes on over a period of time on a daily basis, instead of logging in once a month, and find the nastiest threads you can find, before labeling it a "useless" forum. You would be surpise how much you could learn just by reading it everyday.

If the OT forum goes away, I don't have much reason to hang around here anymore, cept for any nuggets of info about the games.

Maxillius · « **Reply #67 on:** May 07, 2003, 10:10:43 am »

Whenever I feel out of the world loop and need some news, I go to the OT forums. I prefer hearing a commentary and debate over a simple report!

JMM · « **Reply #68 on:** May 07, 2003, 12:05:51 pm »

I vote for getting Raj back and making him and Storm make their peace, and just forgetting the whole affair. Lord knows I've pissed off people and been pissed of by others, no reason to ban anyone though and belittle them...

All you drinkers out there know for a fact that at least ONCE you have made a really weird comment or post while under the influence, so let's just say they were inebriated and let them back in...

JMM · « **Reply #71 on:** May 07, 2003, 06:26:45 pm »

LOL, I remember ur heartache dog, you were seeing world class politics being done at a gamers level! I want my BB at 30,000 tons and 18 inch guns! You can have that if my HBC can be 25,000 tons and have fighters from hades! LOL, glad I passed that one up...

KBF-Dogmatix · « **Reply #72 on:** May 08, 2003, 11:52:21 am »

heheh....ayep. It didn't take me long to drop out of that mess. It went FUBAR in no time flat. After I dropped out, I just lurked and watched the show.

SPQR Drall · « **Reply #73 on:** May 08, 2003, 12:54:43 pm »

Mavolic,

I started reading the OT board regularly and posting on an irregular basis. Then I started posting a little more but I stopped and decided to not participate there anymore. I agree with you that there are sometimes informative and interesting thread, but there is a core group of very active posters that will attack personnaly anyone who disagrees with them instead of their point of view. Racist remarks are also commonplace. I can understand that a few posters are not the majority, but the majority tolerates these rude behaviors and quietly aquiesce to them. It's too bad because a while ago it was a nice place to go, it used to have differing opinions from different countries and social classes, now it seems to be overwhelmed by only one point of view.

You are right though, I always have the choice not to go there anymore, which is what I tend to do lately.

SPQR Drall

Mentat Jon · « **Reply #77 on:** May 08, 2003, 08:57:38 pm »

someone told me to come in here,all i have to say for myself is I never attack anyone for being a liberal or a Socialist,but I will defend myself when im attacked,Liberals tend not to attack the Idea,but the Man.

you can be the Redest Red in Cuba,if you act civil you will be treated civil.

with that im out of here, back to the OT with me

News:

Topic: I sincerely apologise... (Read 16225 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

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Topic: I sincerely apologise... (Read 16225 times)

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